Talk:Race and intelligence

Archives
Archive index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 25, 26, 27 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34 35, 36, 37 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67
Topics Race and intelligence references Discussions pertaining to haplotypes and haplogroups Discussion pertaining to planning and organization

Please place new messages at bottom of page.

The main point of the article

Racial and ethnic groups in the U.S. show differences in average IQ test scores, but the distributions of scores overlap greatly. (Reynolds, Chastain, Kaufman, & McLean, 1987)

Older versions of the article included these bell curves. I intend to add this diagram and the following information so we get to one of the main points of the article near the beginning of the article, that is the disparity of IQ between races. --Jagz (talk) 07:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

IQ tests are often designed to have an average score of 100. Studies have shown that Whites in Europe and the United States (U.S.) average from 100 to 103 on IQ tests. Orientals in Asia and the U.S. tend to have scores of about 106. Blacks in the U.S., the Caribbean, Britain, and Canada have average IQs of about 85. The average IQs for sub-Saharan Africans range from 70 to 75. Black Africans in the South African school system have an average IQ of 70, whereas Mixed-Race Black students in South Africa, with about 25% White ancestry (as determined by genetic testing), have an average IQ of 85 -- the same as Blacks in the United States, Britain, and the Caribbean.

For an additional source of IQ score data, click on the bell curve diagram. --Jagz (talk) 17:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

• Are you not citing just one WP:FRINGE source? That is why the consensus was that the article should summarise the current mainstream state of academic research, ascertained from scholarly databases. Rushton is not a mainstream source unfortunately. Mathsci (talk) 07:22, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

His book contains some theories that are not considered mainstream but there does not seem to be a problem with the IQ numbers. I have not included any non-mainstream information from his book. --Jagz (talk) 07:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

There may be a problem with the statistical methods which have been criticized by biologists and experimental psychologists. The article must reflect mainstream academic findings in the correct context. How can you judge what's mainstream or not without having surveyed the literature? That would be original research. Mathsci (talk) 08:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you disputing the IQ numbers? I think your main reason for participation in this article is because you enjoy debating. Could you please do or say something constructive for once? --Jagz (talk) 09:23, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't seem particularly fruitful to criticize my editing history on main space articles, which you can check for yourself. What might emerge from this interchange possibly is that you may already have a fixed point of view before writing.

The present article is extremely problematic – you must surely be aware of that – and I do not find that your suggestions above are at all constructive or that your approach is scholarly. The interpretation of the graphs, statistical or otherwise, that you propose is not clear at all. Do you take it as a proof that "blacks in the US are less intelligent than whites" or as a proof that "the average score on IQ tests taken by blacks was less than that taken by whites". The latter statement is correct; but for example were the tests "controlled", i.e. were the tests taken under exactly similar circumstances (e.g. were both groups

equally prepared)? These questions are scientific and are addressed in the literature - that is what we have to record in the article. The text that you have written suggests that the IQ test measures innate intelligence and is independent of circumstances, which has been shown not to be the case in the literature. This is what I meant by context. Again let me repeat myself: it is not for us to interpret these findings, but to record how they are interpreted in mainstream literature, e.g. whether they are regarded as having any significance, statictical or otherwise. In what you wrote above, it is unclear whether you meant to suggest that there is an inherent undisputed intelligence gap between races, irrespective of upbringing and independent of the method of testing. Is that what you meant to write? The case of Irish vs English (that you also mention), instead of Black Americans vs White Americans, seems equally problematic and WP:FRINGE. Mathsci (talk) 10:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The main purpose of the article is to discuss what appears to be an intelligence gap between races. An intelligence gap is suggested by the IQ gap. After presenting the IQ gap data, the article can discuss whether or not it actually indicates an intelligence gap between the races and whether the concept of race is meaningful, etc. This key information was removed from earlier versions of the article. There is no point in continuing any further with the article until this is resolved. --Jagz (talk) 14:29, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

"An intelligence gap is suggested by the IQ gap." Thank you for at last making your position so clear. Mathsci (talk) 19:22, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Right, you were reading things into the article that were not there in writing. --Jagz (talk) 19:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Apologies for confusing your quotes with similar sources which suggest that the IQ gap between blacks and whites in the USA is the same as the IQ gap between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland (or between the English/Scottish and the Irish). Following your "logic", should we now also be discussing whether Irish Catholics are less intelligent than Irish Protestants? Mathsci (talk) 19:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Since Irish Catholics are not a race, at least in the context of this article, the answer is no. --Jagz (talk) 19:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

There, sir, you are wrong: Irish Protestants are of Scottish origin; Irish Catholics are of Irish origin. Please read a history book, in particular the bits about an individual called Oliver Cromwell, Lord Protector of England, Scotland and Ireland. No, Jagz, if you're in for a penny, you're in for a punt :) Mathsci (talk) 19:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The article started out in 2002 discussing the IQ gaps between whites, blacks, and Hispanics in the United States. We are now changing the perspective of the article to have a worldwide view. It should include white Europeans, black Africans, and oriental Asians; indigenous races. Also, countries other than the USA should be discussed and I did that by mentioning Britain and Canada for example. Also, mixed-race people add another consideration. --Jagz (talk) 20:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the exercise of comparing the IQs of Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics might also show that IQ tests could possibly be scientifically meaningless, since so many white Americans are of Irish Catholic origin (following the 19C emigrations resulting from the potato famines in Ireland). Mathsci (talk) 21:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Did you know that Irish people were brought to Iceland as slaves but now the people there are of mixed Icelandic and Irish ancestry? --Jagz (talk) 21:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

This source says Dublin was probably the prime slave market of western Europe. It also says the Irish slave trade "appears to have petered out in the early 12th century along with the Viking Age itself".[1] --Jagz (talk) 20:00, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The article Slavery in Britain and Ireland shows that hundreds of years later, thousands of Irish people were sent to the the West Indies as indentured servants and slavery was resurrected. --Jagz (talk) 23:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is another article disussing Irish slavery.[2] Also see Irish diaspora. --Jagz (talk) 07:00, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

It is better to discuss geographic regions and not islands. --Jagz (talk) 14:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Mathsci, when you mention "comparing the IQs of Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics might also show that IQ tests could possibly be scientifically meaningless", it seems to me to be dangerously close to original research. If indeed that's what the data suggests, and if a reputable source concludes that, then that information should be included in the article about IQ tests, not this one. Aron.Foster (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

If I'm not terribly confused, the Scots were from Ireland, and the Picts were Scotland's indigenous peoples. Scotland was Catholic until the upstanding Calvinist John Knox introduced ' Presbyterianism". I think that this alone would argue that the Scots and the Erse are racially the same people.Die4Dixie 23:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Die4Dixie (talk • contribs)

Anti-racism

Anti-racism includes beliefs, actions, movements, and policies adopted or developed to oppose racism. In general, anti-racism is intended to promote an egalitarian society in which people do not face discrimination on the basis of their race, however defined. By its nature, anti-racism tends to promote the view that racism in a particular society is both pernicious and socially pervasive, and that particular changes in political, economic, and/or social life are required to eliminate it. --Jagz (talk) 21:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That's nice. Why are you telling us that? JettaMann (talk) 02:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Contemporary issues

I recommend that the "Contemporary issues" section be expanded and the "Research" section be reduced in size because it is unencyclopedic. Some of the information from the Research section could go into the Contemporary issues section. The Contemporary issues section can cover what are currently considered to be the mainstream and non-mainstream viewpoints regarding race and intelligence. --Jagz (talk) 15:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Some kind of reorganization is needed. First, I see a lot of redundancy -- the same thing said in multiple places. Second, the order in which things are discussed is not fully logical. I tried rewriting some of the paragraphs in the research section where I could see the point that previous authors were trying to make had been lost. I think it's more coherent now, but the sections I didn't edit are still a jumble of sentences. --Legalleft (talk) 18:09, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Why is a Racial Debate in this article?

This article is about race and IQ. It is not about whether or not race exists. That would be a separate article, and people who wanted to read that article can click on a link to get to it. Feel free to put such a link in this article. However, people who want to read about race and IQ should not be forced to wade through all these irrelevant racial debate articles. It only obfuscates the true purpose of this article. JettaMann (talk) 18:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, it just makes the article too long. --Jagz (talk) 22:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I also agree, but it's an important enough issue where it should at least be mentioned and linked in this article. One or two sentences... I'm at a loss on where to put them in the current article. Aron.Foster (talk) 00:53, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe if you put it in the introduction to the article it will keep it from expanding in the future. --Jagz (talk) 17:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually JettaMan this article is not about race and IQ, it is about Race and intelligence. Intelligence and IQ are not the same thing, whatever certain psychometricians want to claim, after all there is no doubt that psychometricians do not represent an uninterested party when it comes to conflating IQ and intelligence. Indeed your other claim that the article is not about whether "race" exists is rather odd, if one is going to have an article called "race and intelligence" then it is clearly within the scope of the article to cover human variation and whether ideas of "race" are accurate descriptors of the variation that does exist, just like it is within the scope of the article to discuss the concept of "intelligence" and that many scientists are sceptical that IQ really does measure intelligence. Likewise it is within the scope of the article to discuss the fact that heritability is a measure of variance and that gene-environment interactions are not independent. Currently the article is extremely biased and only wants to give a very watered down discussion of the massive amount of evidence against the simplistic and rather pathetic "nature-nurture" attitude of certain so called "scientists". Indeed the article hardly covers the huge amount of the literature against the "hereditarians", including the volume "Race and IQ" edited by Ashley Montague compiled in direct response to Jensen's 1969 diatribe, it's not mentioned once in the appropriate section. Indeed there seems to have been a conscious effort on the part of right wing idealogues recently in this article to remove information that does not support their eugenicist point of view. Alun (talk) 07:05, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

No. --Jagz (talk) 10:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The article should mention controversies with the definitions of 'race' and 'intelligence', and link to their respective pages. I also liked when the article mentioned that most studies concerning race/intelligence assumed that 1) race, or at least ethnicity, exists and 2) g exists and measures intelligence. But this isn't the place to fully explore those issues. Aron.Foster (talk) 11:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I added a sentence to the article's introduction. --Jagz (talk) 13:36, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

When it comes to race and IQ, race is a marker for socio-economic status. If the article simply explored the relationship between race as a social status and variation in IQ, I would have no problems. But Arthur Jensen, a notable although very much a minority view in this debate, has suggested that race is best understood as a biological group (although Jensen has no training in biology). We now have the mainstream and a minority view, and they disagree. The article has to provide some account of this disagreement, and a context for understanding the mainstream and minority views. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm really quite certain that the two main views regarding the causes of the observed differences -- ignoring questions of minor / major -- are that race is a marker for "racism" vs "biology" (both very broadly construed). From there, there's some debate about the importance of SES factors in the racism thesis. However, you won't find, for example, Flynn saying that SES is the explanation -- or rather any sense of SES as it is typically defined. The reason for this is quite simple: the children of the wealthiest, best educated parents living in the most socially progressive towns in the U.S. still have a race-gap issue. Obgu and Sowell, two black social scientists, both have particular environmental theories to address these issues, but they don't involve SES. Likewise, Steele's work and Fryer's work to address the issue (again two black social scientists) doesn't focus on SES. --Legalleft (talk) 17:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

• the children of the wealthiest, best educated parents living in the most socially progressive towns in the U.S. still have a race-gap issue.

So what? There is a social gap however "progressive" the town is supposed to be. The social gap is not due to wealth, it is due to socio-cultural factors. There is no such thing as "equality" even when economic factors are equal. Thsi is "socioeconomic" and not just "economic" or "educational" factors. The social factors that present the gap in wealthier populations are due to 500 years of historical and continuing white supremacism. You can't model for that. Alun (talk) 17:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Hence, SES as it is commonly understood in terms of class, education and income isn't what people think is involved and something more analogous to "racism" is what they think is involved. This SES vs racism issue is important to people in the field because it tells you where to look for the cause. --Legalleft (talk) 17:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not wedded to the term SES. I am commited to representing notable sources without giving undue weight. When "race" is concerned the overwhelming bulk of the literature explores social and other environmental causes; as long as this literature is accurately represented I am okay. As for the "biology" view that seems to be a tiny minority in the scientific literature on IQ differences between races. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Great. Then I think the problem is just with using that term. If you quantify opinions by counting the number of different notable opinions, then there certainly are more distinguishable opinions related to social/environmental causes. That is, there are a multitude of suggested environmental causes. However, the only sources I know of that quantify opinions by having a larger number of researchers give their opinions find non-trivial support of biology being part of the explanation as well. So I'm not sure how you assess undue weight in that context. Are there currently example of undue weight in the article? --Legalleft (talk) 19:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

BTW -- I'm not saying that "racism" is exactly the right term either. Flynn writes that while the word "racism" captures the idea, simply saying "racism" is not a satisfactory kind of answer because racism has to work though some kind of causal process, which he wants to discover. --Legalleft (talk) 19:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

If I may use Occam's razor here. What we are discussing is environment not racism. Legalleft seems to be assuming that a test score gap between white and black people supposedly of the same socioeconomic status is ipso facto a result of genetics. This is based on an assumption that the environment and environmental history of people from a high socioeconomic status are not a factor. I am disputing this. I mentioned that social status is not the same as economic status, is it warranted to conflate social status and economic status? I'm not sure it is. This is not necessarily about racism though. I'm from the UK and there are clear differences between social classes that are not due to economics at all, one can be a hereditary peer and be poor, one can be a working class success story. Racism is also a factor in the different environments of white and black people of the same educational and economic status, it is not necessarily the same as having a different social status. Whatever one's social status one can suffer from racism. Likewise there is a difference between institutionalised racism and overt racism. Indeed I think the important point to make is that there are environmental differences between black and white people that appear to be from the same socioeconomic status. The assumption that because both groups appear to have similar economic resources, similar educational backgrounds and have similar employment then, the difference in test scores is because of "genetics" is just that, an assumption. There are differences in environment; social status, racism, stereotype threat to name but a few, there are probably many more differences in environment between these groups that can affect test scores. Alun (talk) 09:57, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

What?!? I hope people read what I actually wrote because I was asking for suggestions on areas for improvement in the article. --Legalleft (talk) 17:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

nature vs nurture section

the text alun added is somewhere between trivially true (and hence could simply be given in the definition of heritability should we desire to define it) and irrelevant (as in not important to this article). lewontin's argument isn't an argument but a statement of the definition of heritability -- it's about population level variance, not the "causes" that are necessary and sufficient at an individual level. (for example, oxygen food and water are 100% necessary for an individual to develop a brain, but variation in these three factors contributes only some proportion to the total population level variance in brain development.) heritability is just ANOVA on the phenotypes of related (and unrelated) individuals with a certain ANOVA model. --Legalleft (talk) 18:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Lewontin's article is about the non-independence of genes and environment, the section also makes specific reference to the fact that some researchers have conflated heritability with the effect of genes on traits, but heritability is about the effect of genes on "variance" and not on traits. Furthermore the fact that the effect of genes are not independent of environment is more than "trivial". Heritability is dependent upon environment, the same trait can be 100% heritable in one environment and 0% heritable in a different environmment. Considering part of Jensen's argument is based on heritability the edit is absolutely relevant. Jensen claims that because heritability is high for "intelligence" then the differences of "intelligence" between "populations" must be due to innate differences and not due to environment. When we argue that heritability is only measurable with fixed environments we are revealing a flaw to a least part of this logic. Furthermore it is revealing that you removed this edit almost imediately that I made it, indicating that you at least thought it detremental enough to the blatant pov you have been pushing to feel it was a challenge to you biased editing. Indeed your argument that it is about population level variance is relevant, or do you not consider "races" populations? Indeed your original reasons for removing this edit of mine was some humbug about it being a "critique of behavioural genetics",[3] but none of the articles cited mention behavioral genetics at all, they are specifically about heritability and gene-environment interractions. The journals from which they derive indicate this, for example "The International Journal of Epidemiology", in this they discuss the interaction of genes and environment with regards to cancer, as well as with regards to "race and intelligence". Why are you so affraid of any edit that does not support your pov? You came to this article claiming that you want a "neutral" article, but your editing is blatantly pov, you have systematically removed text that undermines Jensen and Rushton. Worse your idea of "neutrality" is to include long sections of text supporting Jensen et al while relegating differeing opinions to little more than a footnote. For example take a look at the sections "Contemporary issues", "The Bell Curve" and the Genetics section in the "Natur nurture" section, these all provide very long sections detailing the work of people supporting a "genetic model" for the test score gap, and a line or two at the end giving little more than a nod to gainsayers. Thus it appears that the consensus is that the genetic model is accepted and only a small minority of scientists dispute it. This is neither neutral according to Wikipedia policies, nor is it honest, breaching the neutrality policy is taken very seriously on Wikipedia and you can be banned from editing for it. Given your initial claims for wanting a neutral article I can only assume that this was never your intent. The eminent neuroscientist Steven Rose has written "Every time we think we have buried the pseudo-science behind racist claims about differences in intelligence between Blacks and Whites, some attention-seeker attempts to re-ignite them."[4] It seems you may well be one such "attention-seeker". Wikipedia works because we agree to follow the rules, there are few absolute rules, most rules are more like guidelines, breaking guidelines is not ecoraged, but sometimes it may be necessary. On the other hand we do have several policies, these cannot be broken, the most important of these policies are neutrality, no original research and verifiability. Constantly breaching these policies can lead to a ban from editing. I observe that you have made no effort to be neutral and I am warning you that this is not acceptable. You have tried to accuse me of lacking neutrality on this article, but you should observe that I have made very few edits to this article and have been more involved with discussions on the talk page. Wikipedia is not a free for all, we are collaborative, edits need to be discussed on the talk page and ideally there should be a consensus, especially for big changes to articles. It's one reason why I have made relatively few edits to this article, because it is difficult to get consensus here, and also because this is a contentious issue that is certainly not as clear cut as you would like to portray it. Excuse any typographical errors, I'm using an unfamiliar keyboard. Alun (talk) 13:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

For the record, as you accused me of pov-pushing on this article,[5] I have made exactly 16 edits to the article on "Race and intelligence", 14 of them in the last week, most of these 14 were me trying to replace my perfectly good edit, that either you or Jagz had removed or moved to the bottom of the section because it did not support your pov.[6] My total edit count over the last three years or so is 8196 at the time of writing.[7] You have made a total of 110 edits, 38 of which are to this article and 39 of which are to this article's talk page, 2 of which are to the related article Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study, the remainder of which are to user pages and user talk pages. Clearly if I am pushing a pov on this article I am disguising it very well. Alun (talk) 13:50, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Alun, it is very difficult to discuss anything with you because you don't appear to respond to what I actually write. I was trying to say that the entire section you added could be replaced with a non-argumentative statement that everyone agrees about the points being raised and that they were very simple and easy to understand if made directly. That is, it should require nothing much more then giving the defintiion of "heritability" to make that clear, assuming that's even necessary. We don't have room to correct all misconceptions here, and the existing text in that section already goes to some lengths to explain the relationship between heritability (within groups) and the causes of group differences. A further section, especially a long and detailed one, seems unnecessary. --Legalleft (talk) 18:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Ha. I just wrote about your pov-pushing and you didn't respond to that. Furthermore I don't think it is you who decides what should be included and what should not, if so you would only mention the work of people like Jensen and Rushton on current form. Besides which you keep changing your mind. First it's about "behavioural genetics" (wrong) then it's "not relevant" (wrong) now it's "too detailed" (though any level of detail seems OK to you as long as it promotes a racialised pov far as I can see). When I do respond to what you say, you just change what you are saying. Alun (talk) 18:38, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm doing my best to stay on topic and thus stay productive. The topic is the content of the genes and environment section. The current content is wholly unnecessary as written and at most we can make due providing the definition of heritability, but even that isn't clearly necessary as it is covered in so many other articles, and more importantly, the relationship between within group heritabilty and between group differences (the only part relevant to this article) is already spelled out in the section above that. --Legalleft (talk) 18:49, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Hardly a correct statement. The topic of my edit was your blatant lack of neutrality when you edit. Your response was to ignore this. Indeed far from staying on topic you keep changing your mind, as I pointed out above. You appear to be a right wing racialist idealogue with little or no interest in producing a neutral article. Your edits belie your claims when you cane to this article. Originally you stated that you wanted to include Jensen's work in context, instead you have systematically removed any real discussion of the limitations and critisism of this work. I'm sorry to say that you are editing in a pov way and trying to produce an ideologically motivated article based on your own personal opinions and beliefs. You appear to have little or no interest in actually producing an encyclopaedia article that gives a neutral point of view. We can of course have a Request for comment regarding the article, or even a Wikipedia:Peer review. Furthermore if you contunue your pov-pushing and breaching of the Wikipedia policy on neutrality we can have a Request for comment on your contributions. As I have stated before this is not a free for all, any editor who does not follow policies can be sanctioned. You do not appear to understand this, I have stated this several times to you, but you continue to produce thoroughly biased edits. Articles are not here to promote the personal beliefs of editors, this is not a blog, and it is not supposed to promote one ideology over any other. You have had a relatively free hand over the last week or so, but have produced nothing like a balanced article. If it comes to it we can get the article locked so no one can edit it. Alun (talk) 07:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The quality of the article has increased by a factor of 10 since it was unlocked February 1. --Jagz (talk) 14:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Legalleft, I am not convinced everyone involved in the debate over IQ does agree with the way populaion geneticists and evolutionary biologists use the word "heritability;" I am pretty sure I read an ad in the Wall Street Journal several years ago signed by a number of psychologists that made false claims about heritability - well, certainly claims that wouldn't make it into a peer-reviewed journal. Or notable college textbook. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:43, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's what I wrote. I don't think it's controversial, and I think it clears up what is being discussed. It largely says what heritabilility doesn't mean: --Legalleft (talk) 19:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

In a modern context, the issue often relates to estimating the relative contribution of genetic and environmental factors to difference between individuals. However, all commenters agree that these methods cannot and are not intended to distinguish genetic and environmental contributions to the development of individual people. Instead, they are meant to determine the extent to which difference between individuals, for example individual difference in IQ scores, can be attributed to genetic and environmental factors that differ between individuals. Thus, a heritability of 100% does not mean that environmental factors are unimportant for development, but rather that physical or behavioral difference between individuals are not caused by difference in environment.

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. They did say something that's at best clumsily worded and at worst just wrong. But it wasn't some kind of fundamental disagreement, just sloppiness. --Legalleft (talk) 19:59, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I just don't know what to make of your comment. All we can do is judge the text of the ad, it is accurate or inaccurate. The ad was presented as a firm testament as to the beliefs of the signatories, and if you do not know, ads at a newspaper like the Wall Street Journal cost a lot - I would imagine the PhD's would be as careful in their wording in an ad. they pay for, as in the wording of anything else they sign their name to. If they were "sloppy" you would have to provide me evidence that the fault is sloppiness. Lacking any evidence I just cannot agree with you. What we do agree on is that what they claim about heritability is wrong. When we have a fringe view that we agree is wrong, we should be very careful not to give it undue weight in an encyclopedia article. And when we have notable views that we agree are right - well, explaining those views carefully, accurately, and clearly - isn't this juse avoiding the mistake you accuse the WSJ ad. signitories of? How can you fault Alun for wanting to avoid the fault you accuse them of? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

(1) It wasn't an ad, but an invited editorial. (2) What they wrote is technically correct, but sloppy. I know the authors personally and I suspect they would agree with my characterization. They wrote that if you eliminate environmental variation, then heritability goes to 100%. By environmental variation, they meant shared + nonshared environmental variation, but the common sense understanding of the term "environment" refers just to shared environmental variation, and it is not true that eliminating shared environmental variation will cause heritability to rise to 100%. That's where they were sloppy. I was very careful to avoid such pitfalls. (3) I didn't see any comment from Alun regarding the WSJ statement, and I was responding to your question. (4) So far, Alun has offered no speciifc suggestions for improving what I wrote other than to reintroduce an additional 4k of text, including a large block quote, to further explicatate what is an indirect point that should be covered in detail in any of a number of other articles. --Legalleft (talk) 19:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Your text is at best an understatement, and conflates heritability with the actual effect of genes and nvironments on traits. Heritability is not a measure of the affect of genes or environment on a trait. I get the impression that you want to promote this misconseption because it appears to support your point of view. Furthermore you deliberately downplay the fact that genes do not act independently of environment. You really are not at all neutral or ballanced in the way you edit, and your hysteria about my small and correct edit clearly displays this. You can't even settle on why you don't like my edit, you just don't like it because it doesn't support the biased right wing ideology you are blatantly including into the article. Alun (talk) 07:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

If there is a problem with the text, then make corrections to it. --Jagz (talk) 13:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, this is a surprise, Jagz supporting Alun's additions and changes to the article! Finally, an authentic spirit of good faith and cooperation!! Slrubenstein | Talk 19:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me second Jagz -- if there are specific problems with what I wrote, then fix them, and we can make progress. Reintroducing a large block of text that only indirectly addresses the topic of this article is unnecessary. --Legalleft (talk) 19:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia citation policy

What is Wikipedia's policy regarding the use of citations from news sources? --Jagz (talk) 13:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything specifically about news sources here Wikipedia:Verifiability. I suppose it would depend almost entirely on the context. --Legalleft (talk) 17:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

You need to look at reliable sources and especially at Science article in the popular press, this states

Articles in newspapers and popular magazines generally lack the context to judge experimental results. They may emphasize the most extreme possible outcomes mentioned in a research project and gloss over caveats and uncertainties, for instance presenting a new experimental medicine as the "discovery of the cure" of a disease. Also, newspapers and magazines sometimes publish articles about scientific results before those results have been peer-reviewed or reproduced by other experimenters. They also tend not to report details of the methodology that was used, or the degree of experimental error. Thus, popular newspaper and magazine sources are generally not the best sources for scientific and medical results, especially in comparison to the academic literature.
What can a popular-press article on scientific research provide? The mainstream press is valuable for reporting the public perception of scientific topics and for summarizing their implications for public policy. Such articles can also be used as pointers to more substantive information on the science itself. For instance, a newspaper article quoting Joe Smith of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution regarding whales' response to sonar gives you a strong suggestion of where to go to find more: look up his work on the subject, and cite his published papers instead of the newspaper article.

Be careful when citing science from the popular press, they do not represent the views of academics, but the impressions of journalists. If a reputable scientist is writing in a well respected newspaper or magazine, then clearly it has more validity that a journalist writing in less reputable publication. Alun (talk) 13:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Worldwide view template

Can the worldwide view template be removed from the article now? --Jagz (talk) 20:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

This is great work

This article has made enormous progress recently. This is an article the authors can be proud of, in my opinion. Thank you for your hard work! 68.42.98.97 (talk) 23:33, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Factual accuracy disputed

The article has a template disputing the factual accuracy of the article. It says, "Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page." I can't locate the discussion regarding the article's factual accuracy. What exactly is being disputed? --Jagz (talk) 14:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The massive pov bias of the article, especially the refusal of certain editors to observe policies. The article is biased and does not represent anything like an unbiased encyclopaedia article. It is more like an opinion piece than an unbiased discussion of the subject at hand. See the constant attempts by legalleft to remove a soundly sourced edit by myself. I'd like to contribute more to the neutrality of this article and give it a less biased slant, but it is apparent that some editors are forming a cabal to push a specific Jensonian point of view. It's not encyclopaedia and is a clear breach of Wikipedia policy. Alun (talk) 15:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I propose that the factual accuracy template be removed because Alun/Wobble has not raised a valid point concerning the factual accuracy of the article. See: Wikipedia:Accuracy dispute --Jagz (talk) 16:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

It is not accurate to present the Jensenian model as if it is a consensus and other models as if they are fringe. This article portrays Jenensen and Rushton's work as if it is a fact, when their theories are hotly disputed by a majority of researchers in several fields of life sciences, including molecular biology, genetics, population genetics, neurology, anthropology and psychology. You're just clutching at straws man.

If you come across an article with an accuracy warning, please do the following:
* don't remove the warning simply because the material looks reasonable: please take the time and make sure that content is from verifiable reliable sources and that it is unbiased and contains no original research. The article is biased, and therefore factually inacurate.

Alun (talk) 17:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Could the position of the templates not be changed instead? I don't think there is any debate over the fact the Asians have the highest IQ's, followed closely by Whites, with Hispanics and Negroes clearly lower. Every test ever carried out has shown this, the debate seems to be merely over the existance of races (A laughable debate, in my opinion), and whether the mental inabilites of the Black race are caused by nature or environment. The article needs to be broken up more clearly into undebated test results, and discussion of those tests/results. --Confederate till Death (talk) 09:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

• Alun, please follow the Wikipedia policy regarding accuracy disputes. It says:

• if the neutrality of the content is in question, please look at Wikipedia:NPOV dispute.
• if only a few statements seem inaccurate:

• insert {{dubious}} after the relevant sentence or paragraph.
• insert a "Disputed" section in the talk page to describe the problem.
• (Or insert {{dubious|section}} replacing 'section' with the appropriate section on the talk page.) --Jagz (talk) 17:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

While I do not contest that "race and intelligence" is a valid field of study, and the article looks comprehensive enough, I find the terminology used in some cases somewhat suspicious. Is "whites" an acceptable indication for people of caucasian descent? Also, I find few references to the issue of racism and discrimination, which one would expect in this context. Also, some of the references seem biased. Note the table from the book "Cracking the bell curve myth" in which a distinction between people of British and Irish descent is made, but no such distinction or reference to ancestry is made for the "whites" in the North Americas. Gralgrathor (talk) 12:29, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

shockley

What precisely is the point being conveyed in with the Shockley text and does that existing text convey that point as well as it could? It seems important to point out that there were public debates on this topic in the 1970s, and that seems to be the real underlying point of mentioning Shockley.--Legalleft (talk) 19:22, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

The section the Shockley text is included in is attempting to provide a brief overview of landmark events from 1969 to the present. --Jagz (talk) 21:55, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the section should mention the James Watson incident too. --Jagz (talk) 14:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

That seems appropriate. re: Shockley, it could probably do with a less detail. --Legalleft (talk) 21:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I shortened the Shockley paragraph. --Jagz (talk) 22:03, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

tag frenzy

Can t this go on the talk page. There are way too many redundant tags on the page. Also: "The discussion page may contain suggestions" is a joke. The talk page is so cluttered that I couldn't find any suggestions. --71.184.193.227 (talk) 13:11, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

No. It needs to go on the article page because readers need to be informed of any concerns someone has pointed out. We cant assume readers will check the discussion page, and I am pretty sure guidelines ask to place it on article and not discussion. Brusegadi (talk) 05:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Consensus on recent change requested

A recent change to the article added a "Primarily environment" section. The section looks unintelligible to me, like someone pieced together some vaguely related paragraphs, perhaps from a previous version of the article, and added it. I don't think that the section belongs in the article as written. I'd like some opinions from others. Here is the change I am referring to: [8] --Jagz (talk) 23:18, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I am fixing it. Copied if from an earlier lost article version which was not very good.Ultramarine (talk) 23:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Remove the Manipulated and Controversial Data - for Better Consensus!

The IQ scores are not the benchmark in the determining the national IQ, the result can be manipulated and altered to give certain countries a significant advantage over others, especially in the western world which suffers from skin colour bias. These IQ scores can be used to reject people with dark skin in preference to light skin by assuming that they are of lower IQ. Chinese are light skin and are more acceptable to white men especially the chinese girls which are softer target for western males because of their stronger tilt towards multiple sexual partners. These IQ scores are nothing but a form of scientific racism, a old wine in a new bottle, to practice racism with a reason and even get a legal recognition for their evil deeds. You go and check the IQ score of a rural poor in developing countries who are illiterate and malnourished and brand whole country as of lower IQ is nothing but a consiparacy by the racist west. The IQ scores are more relevant in the countries where there is less social divide between the socio-economic condition of the urban middle class and rural populace. This article can be improved by removing the biased and manipulated data compiled by western editors to achieve the cause of white supermacist and vested interests. General discussion on race and intelligence with neutral point of view should be encouraged.--Himhifi 00:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

You forgot to use the word Nazi. --Jagz (talk) 00:57, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

http://groups.uni-paderborn.de/rindermann/materialien/PublikationsPDFs/07EJP.pdf -- see Figure 2 --Legalleft (talk) 04:22, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Chinese girls do What????? This is bizarre. Can you provide a source to substantiate this racist statement that oriental girls are more promiscuous and into orgies?Die4Dixie 14:25, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Article is biased, and written with racist POV of vested interests- requires cleanup!

The neutrality of this article is in doubt as it is contain racist point of view of vested interests who are trying to propogate there POV and false notion that bilogically race do exist and there is a direct correlation between the intelligence and colour of the skin. The data presented in the article is of little credibility or relevance which has been counter challenged and proved unauthentic by several authors of repute and should be removed. The neutrality check of this article should be carried out.--Himhifi 01:45, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

What specifically is your problem with the article? You need to state specifics. As the article states, "The contemporary debate on race and intelligence is about what causes racial and ethnic differences in IQ test scores." If you wish to present another POV, you can add it provided you cite your sources. --Jagz (talk) 19:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm planning to take the POV tag off the article in a few days because there has been no discussion. --Jagz (talk) 20:06, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Race-IQ Gap Remains

Here is a 2006 article from Rushton:

"Despite widespread claims that the gap is closing between Blacks and Whites in educational achievement and intelligence test scores, new research shows the 15-point IQ difference is as large today as it was 100 years ago."[9]

--Jagz (talk) 11:28, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Different opinions on this with Nisbett having another.Ultramarine (talk) 16:15, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Mainstream view

It appears that the mainstrem view among the experts in the early 1960's was the predominantly environmental explanation for the IQ gaps but now the mainstream view among experts is that there is a significant genetic component. That being the case, I'm not sure why there is such a fervent effort among some editors to remove possible explanations for how this genetice component came into being. --Jagz (talk) 19:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

No evidence for what mainstream view is. No reason to give numerous Pioneer Fund theories similar to one another. Enough to mention Rushton's as one example.Ultramarine (talk) 19:10, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, Gottfredson's theory does not discuss racial differences. Could be in an IQ or human evolution article.Ultramarine (talk) 19:23, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

You should leave your Pioneer Fund personal biases out of Wikipedia. Please start now. --Jagz (talk) 18:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

No, the Pioneer Fund is not a reputable scientific organization, it helps us identify fring groups. When editing the article on evolution we use affiliation with creation science institutes also to identify fringe groups. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:07, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately for you, your opinion about the Pioneer Fund is not supported by the Pioneer Fund article. It's an opinion that appears to be held by those opposed to their reseach. Even if it was a universally accepted opinion, you would be guilty of condoning guilt by association, a type of prejudice/discrimination. --Jagz (talk) 18:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

The Pioneer Fund's status is questionable and it does push a specific agenda. It is wise to be wary. Although at times the race and intelligence issue is a scholarly debate it is also a political debate. The article needs to avoid the double-danger of references, research and opinion being read only in one context.Nick Connolly (talk) 19:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Jagz, I do not judge someone's guilt by association. Notability is indexed by a number of things. Research funded by the NSF is probably notable; research published in a prestigious peer-reviewed publication is probably notable. How else do you think we index notability in the scientific community? Similarly, funding from the Pioneer Fund or publication in a minor journal created specificially to publish specific views is an index of non-notability. This is not guilt by association, this is acknowledgment that "notability" is always a measure of standing within a community. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:54, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree with the recent edits -- describing Rushton's book is probably enough to cover the topic -- but the justification (based on Pioneer fund backing) is mistaken. Pioneer funded the MInnesota twins research which was subsequently published in Science. The funding of a research project doesn't tell you much about the notability of the research -- it's hard to imagine how it could in any direct way. --Legalleft (talk) 20:08, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Respectable journals, especially in controversial subjects, always require that the author list any potential bias or influence. Source of funding is one such possible factor. Like the tobacco industry sponsoring research on lung cancer and smoking. No evidence of actual errors in the research is needed. So funding is important.Ultramarine (talk) 20:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

The Pioneer Fund article says, "Its stated purpose is to advance the scientific study of heredity and human differences. The fund focuses on projects it perceives will not be easily funded due to controversial subject matter." It seems that its purpose is to help remedy the discrimination researchers face in getting funds for their controversial research instead of being an actual source of bias. --Jagz (talk) 22:50, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

All -- doesn't this have absolutely nothing to do with Pioneer fund? The question was undue weight and notability. I pretty much agree that it's difficult to distinguish Rushton and Lynn's theories, so given that Rushton's book is pretty notable and Lynn's articles less so, it makes sense to describe the one and not the other. And all that has nothing to do with the Pioneer fund. Or am I missing something? --Legalleft (talk) 23:16, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

reaction time and BW IQ gap

here's a recent paper: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.intell.2007.07.004 --Legalleft (talk) 21:45, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Correlations between IQ and reaction time are low.Ultramarine (talk) 22:09, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

i am not familiar with the doi organization. while the mere fact of my not being familiar is not to say that it is not a reliable source - the fact that its advertising sponsors send out phishing pop ups lends little to its credibility. And i did not see anything in the abstract where the authors identify reaction time as a facet of intellegence - they seem to be arguing that it is a correlating factor. Did I miss it or do you have some other source that says reaction time is part of intellegence? TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 02:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

doi = Digital object identifier. reaction time = ECT (elementary cognitive task) = basic measures of information processing. Google around and you'll find more. Correcting for attenuation, the correlation between IQ test scores and ECT performance is about 0.5 (J. Grudnik and J. Kranzler, Meta-analysis of the relationship between intelligence and inspection time, Intelligence 29 (2001), pp. 523–535.) --Legalleft (talk) 03:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

hmmm there doesn't seem to be an article on elementary cognitive task. Anybody want to help write one?Nick Connolly (talk) 03:31, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

race and intelligence [and its correlates]

an article about race and intelligence would also rightly discuss its correlates, such as school achievement, income, etc. several of the paragraphs removed by TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs) directly discuss race (e.g. IQ and the Wealth of Nations) whereas others are themselves the topic of discussions regarding race (e.g. the Ashkenazi intelligence stuff). That should all be restored. --Legalleft (talk) 07:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

the items removed did not include identifying the correlations by the published authors thus being clear violations of WP:SYN - all analysis and conclusions in WP articles must be the result of third party reliable sources - not strung togethter by WP editors. TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 12:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Discuss on this Talk page then. --Jagz (talk) 12:17, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I see you have added tags to the article but have not initiated discussions specific to the tags. You should initiate the discussions. --Jagz (talk) 13:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

TheRedPenOfDoom -- but (as I tried to explain above) they do discuss race. You'd have to read the sources to know whether they do or not. Most prominently, IQ and the Wealth of Nations / IQ and Global Inequality does explicitly, getting into details such as estimating the average national IQ from the racial demongraphics of the country. --Legalleft (talk) 17:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Show the analysis made by the sources. The analysis by third parties wasn't there in the cited material. It appeared to be violation of WP:OR / WP:SYN. It was therefore removed.TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 17:07, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, let's please ensure we resolve this issue here on the talk page before reintroducing this material in the article, as per WP policies. Also, other further objections are that tables such as found in IQatWoN are national IQ values, therefore largely ethnic rather than racial; also they are highly controversial, and they certainly cannot be presented without the full context of what's controversial about them, and finally adding them would again put undue weight on theories adhered to by a very small minority of academics in the field.--Ramdrake (talk) 18:26, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. All the data can be regarded from one POV as being largely ethnic rather than racial. The racial v ethnic issue is a fundamental aspect of this, as race as a biological criteria is itself in dispute AND even if it weren't the data is largely based on using ethnicity as a proxy for race. Is that a big problem for people who claim an intelligence-IQ link? Yes indeed. Should it therefore be avoided in the article? Absolutely not, expunging data based on ethnicity would make the article confusing and even more open to POV biases.Nick Connolly (talk) 18:56, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The map that was removed is neither ethinic nor racial data- it was National IQ scores. To jump from national scores to 'race' or 'ethnicity' is not allowed under WP:SYN - therefore it cannot be included. TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 19:16, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

For the national IQ map, it's much simpler than that -- the connection is explicitly made in the original source, the book IQ and Global Inequality. Therefore, it is not SYN to present it in this article. Please read the book to confirm for yourself if you doubt it. Otherwise, assume good faith when I tell you that I have confirmed the connection. --Legalleft (talk) 20:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

You would need to include the quotes from the original source. Without attributable third party analysis, it is SYN.TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 20:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

There's no room to quote vast sections of a book. Look it up in a library. I can put various excerpts here, but that seems absurd. We can't quote at length from the hundreds of sources cited. --Legalleft (talk) 20:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Look at Table 9.6 "The intelligence of nations categorized by race" or any of the ~100 other references to race in the book. --Legalleft (talk) 20:40, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

(e/c) Doesn't matter if I read the source and see it there. You can't include analysis in the article with out attributing it to the WP:RS that is doing the analysis. TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 20:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't have a clue what you're talking about. I'm saying that the book where the map is found talks about the data in the map in the context of racial differences in IQ. The analysis is done in the book where the map comes from. What part of that doesn't make sense? --Legalleft (talk) 20:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

If that is indeed the case, you need to find a way to accurately reflect what ever the processes (analysis/synthesis of data) were undertaken by the author(s) of the book to create a map of nations that somehow reflects race.TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 20:58, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention that the matter of undue weight hasn't been addressed yet, as this is a very controversial piece of research, and represents a very small minority opinion.--Ramdrake (talk) 21:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed.TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 22:07, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear TheRedPenOfDoom, I think you are misunderstanding the issue of synethsis in articles. An article should be an adequate representation of the issue. In this case the issue is an unresolved partly-scientific, partly-political debate in psychometrics about the relation (if any) of race and IQ. In that debate, far beyond the walls of Wikipedia and prior even to the existance of the WWW, all sorts of arguments and data have been thrown about. The synthesis you are objecting to is not that of the editors of the article, but of the assorted academics who have contributed to the discussion over many decades. National IQ is relevant to the article because it is VERIFIABLY part of the issue the article describes. Is National IQ actually a big enormous red-herring? In my opinion yes it is, but that has nothing to do with the article. The article should not be edited on the basis of the quality of the underlying ideas but on the basis of which arguments/data can be verified as having played a role in the external academic debate. Both critics and advocates of a Race-IQ link would probably include National IQ in a survey of the topic, the latter if only to debunk it. Nick Connolly (talk) 21:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I am quite aware of the disputed nature of the topic outside Wikipedia. However, I am specifically objecting to SYN by the editors of the Wikipedia article who are attempting to include a map of IQ by nations under the rubric that it is somehow related to the topic of 'race' and intellegence. If the map under discussion is indeed on topic for this article, it is up to the editors who wish to include it to provide the analysis from the source that shows how national IQ scores are related to the topic of 'race and intellegence'.TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 22:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure of your point here. If you are aware of the debate then surely your objection isn't SYN but that the map wasn't properly explained in the context of race & IQ. If that is your point then why didn't you just add some text to explain it? That would have reduced the net amount of typing in the world by, erm, lots. Suggestion reinstate the map and add better explantory text eg "Attempts to measure national IQ has played a role in the ongoing debate over Race and IQ". Nick Connolly (talk) 22:10, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

No - it is SYN for WP editors to take a map of national IQ scores and drop it into an article on 'race and intellegence'. If the source of the map does indeed make claims somehow linking national IQ scores to race, and I will state that it is entirely possible that someone does try to make that claim, it is not my responsibility to read the book and summarize the authors arguements. That is the responsibility of the editors who want to include that information in the wikipedia article - and so far it has not been done. Therefore the map does not belong.TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 22:22, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I think we may have to agree to disagree on the issue of synthesis and editorial responsibility. In the meantime do you agree with my suggestion? Reinstate the map with a better (none synthetic) explanation as to why the map appears ina Race IQ article. Seems like a happy compromise :) Nick Connolly (talk) 22:37, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

What I have continually stated in nearly every one of these posts is that the map of national IQ would need to have the analysis that somehow claims to link 'national' IQ to 'race' summarized or quoted from the source material before it could be considered for inclusion. However, since, as Ramdrake has indicated, there may also be concerns about undue weight, you may want to show a draft of your proposal for re-inclusion here or in a sandbox to gain concensus prior to adding that material to the article.TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 22:55, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Consensus is a wonderful word. I note that in this case to achieve consensus I really need to find a form of words that would be agreeable to you. My mind reading powers are not what they where after that unhappy incident with the martian milkfloat. So perhaps you could suggest a form of words that you'd find agreeable? Cordially Nick Connolly (talk) 23:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I changed the caption of the current average IQ map. It may fix the problem. --Jagz (talk) 03:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Needs editing: High-achieving minorities

Most of this section of the article was removed recently. Let's see if we can edit and improve it here. I request that RedPen not participate because he contested it and also Ramdrake to not participate for now. --Jagz (talk) 14:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

See also: Ashkenazi intelligence

The book World on Fire notes the existence in many nations of minorities that have created and control a disproportionate share of the economy. Examples include Chinese in Southeast Asia; Whites, Indians, Lebanese and Igbo people of Western Africa; Whites in Latin America; and Jews in pre-World War II Europe, modern America, and modern Russia. These minorities are often resented and sometimes persecuted by the less successful majority.

In the United States, Jews, Japanese, and Chinese earn incomes 1.72, 1.32, and 1.12 times the American average, respectively (Sowell, 1981, p. 5). Jews and East Asians have higher rates of college attendance, greater educational attainment, and are many times overrepresented in the Ivy League and many of the United States' most prestigious schools, even though affirmative action discriminates against Asians in the admissions process (relative to Whites as well as to other minorities). At Harvard, for example, Asian American and Jewish students together make up 51% of the student body, though only constituting roughly 6% of the US population. In various Southeast Asian nations, Chinese control a majority of the wealth despite being a minority of the population and are resented by the majority, in some cases being the target of violence.

Achievement in science, a high-complexity occupation in which practitioners tend to have IQs well above average, also appears consistent with some group IQ disparity. Only 0.25% of the world population is Jewish, but Jews make up an estimated 28% of Nobel prize winners in physics, chemistry, medicine, and economics. In the U.S., these numbers are 2% of the population and 40% of winners. A significant decline in the number of Nobel prizes awarded to Europeans, and a corresponding increase in the number of prizes awarded to US citizens, occurred at the same time as Nazi persecutions of Jews during the 1930s and the Holocaust during the 1940s.

Groups vary significantly in their IQ subtest profiles. Ashkenazi Jews, for example, demonstrate verbal and mathematical scores more than one standard deviation above average, but visuospatial scores roughly one half standard deviation lower than the White average, whereas East Asians demonstrate high visuospatial scores, but average or slightly below average verbal scores. Concordantly, the professions in which these populations tend to be over-represented differ . The Asian pattern of subtest scores is found in fully assimilated third-generation Asian Americans, as well as in Inuits and Native Americans (both of Asian origin).