Talk:Killing of Muhammad al-Durrah

Conditions for editing

I have requested that page protection be lifted for now, and I encourage people to resume editing. However, in my authority as an uninvolved administrator, I am placing some restrictions:

• No reverts, except for obvious vandalism.
• Keep comments and edit summaries very neutral and civil.
• Ensure that any new material that is added, has a reliable source
• If you see someone add something that you disagree with, don't revert it, change it. Specifically: Try to change it to a compromise wording, or add some (sourced) alternate view wording nearby.
• If you see something added with a source, that you do not think is a reliable source, add a {{verify credibility}} tag next to it.
• If you see a sentence that you don't think properly reflects what is in a source, change it so that it does. Or, add a {{verify source}} tag to it
• If you see something that's added that is unsourced, but it's plausible, don't just remove it. Instead, add a {{fact}} tag to it. Then, if no source is provided in a reasonable amount of time, the statement can be removed.
• Do not remove reliable sources
• If something is added that is unsourced, that is obviously troublesome (such as very biased or potentially untrue), it can be deleted on the spot. Please use a clear edit summary such as "removing unsourced information, see talkpage"). If there is a source though, then use one of the other above steps instead.
• Don't worry about sections, or the article, getting too long (for now). First I'd like to give everyone a chance to add the information that they think needs to be added, and then we can take a look later at putting things in the proper proportion, per WP:UNDUE

Bottom line: Stay civil. Don't revert other editors. If you disagree with an addition, don't delete it, change it.

Good luck, Elonka 16:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Administrative notes

This section is for the use of uninvolved administrators in managing the dispute on this page.

Uninvolved admins

• Elonka (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• MZMcBride (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• PhilKnight (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Jayvdb (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Wizardman (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Editors under ArbCom restrictions

The following active editors on this page have been notified of restrictions, per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles

• Julia1987 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
  • Note: Julia1987 was previously editing as Southkept (talk · contribs)[1]
• ChrisO (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (admin participating as involved editor) Banned from editing the article until August 28
• Wikifan12345 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Tundrabuggy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Canadian Monkey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Jaakobou (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• PalestineRemembered (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Liftarn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Other frequent editors on this page

Note: Being listed here does not imply that these editors were disruptive. It is simply for reference, a list of those editors who have recently been actively engaged with this article.

• Beit Or (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• CJCurrie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (admin participating as involved editor)
• JGGardiner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Kauffner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Kelly (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Leifern (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Moreschi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (admin participating as involved editor)
• Nickhh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Pedrito (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Relata refero (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• SlimVirgin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (admin participating as involved editor)
• Tarc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• SJP (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• 6SJ7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Admin log

• Tundrabuggy (talk · contribs) banned from article and talkpage for 90 days, by User:MZMcBride.[2] 10 June 2008
• ChrisO (talk · contribs), for violating the editing conditions, has been banned from this talkpage for 1 week, and from editing the article for one month. --Elonka 01:57, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
• Julia1987 (talk · contribs) banned for one month from editing the lead section of the article (this includes any changes to the caption of the top image). She is still allowed to make other changes to the rest of the article, and to participate at the talkpage. She is also strongly encouraged to spend some time editing other articles than just this one.[3] --Elonka 15:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
• Tundrabuggy (talk · contribs) ban modified, from 90-day total ban on article and talkpage, to only a ban on article-editing (this was after good contributions by Tundrabuggy on other articles, and discussion between administrators Elonka, MZMcbride, and Jayvdb). Tundrabuggy is allowed to resume participation at the talkpage, and is encouraged to continue editing other articles as well, trying to find at least a 50-50 balance between al-Durrah edits and other work. --Elonka 04:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
• Tundrabuggy (talk · contribs) editing ban lifted, based on excellent work editing and creating other non-Durrah articles. He once again has full privileges to edit the article and participate at the talkpage, in accordance with the current conditions for editing. He is still strongly encouraged to maintain a 50-50 balance (or better) between al-Durrah edits and other work. --Elonka 01:36, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
• Wizardman and I chatted about this off-wiki, and to summarize: Wizardman (talk · contribs) is now chief mediator for the dispute on this article. He is the point person for content issues, while I (Elonka) will remain as point person for user conduct issues, specifically as related to the Conditions for Editing and any needed discretionary sanctions. All editors are invited to post a statement at Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-06-17 Muhammad al-Durrah to help the mediation get going. --Elonka 20:54, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
• Wikifan12345 (talk · contribs) banned from article and talkpage for one week. He is still allowed (and encouraged) to participate at mediation. --Elonka 22:52, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
• Liftarn (talk · contribs) has been violating the editing conditions by reverting and removing sources. He has been formally cautioned about ArbCom restrictions,[4] and if there are further violations, I recommend a page ban. --Elonka 01:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
• ChrisO (talk · contribs) banned from editing the article for one month, until August 28. He may still participate at talk and mediation, and work on a rewrite in his userspace if he so chooses.[5] --Elonka 19:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• MedCab mediation closed by Wizardman.[6] --Elonka 05:53, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Anyone, admin or editor, who has questions or comments on any of the above, may post here.

Gun battle(s)?

I noticed that Canadian Monkey had added a claim based on the proposition that "there were multiple gn battles" [sic]. I know of no contemporary source which suggests that. On the contrary, this BBC report - published a few hours after the incident, and just before the al-Durrah shooting had become a cause célèbre - describes a single gun battle lasting 20 minutes in which "one 12-year-old Palestinian boy" (clearly al-Durrah) was shot and killed. Every contemporary source I've found so far - including the Israeli statements - has described the episode as a single incident. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, "this episode" - the one showing the al-Durrahs being shot - is a single incident, but "this episode" is also one which was only captured by Rahma. There are several sources describing exchanges of gunfire throughout the day, and I'm surprised your meticulous research has not turned them up. Here is Fallows on the topic: "A few of the civilians had pistols or rifles, which they occasionally fired; the second intifada quickly escalated from throwing rocks to using other weapons. The Palestinian policemen, mainly in the Pita area, also fired at times. The IDF soldiers, according to Israeli spokesmen, were under orders not to fire in response to rocks or other thrown objects. They were to fire only if fired upon. Scenes filmed throughout the day show smoke puffing from the muzzles of M-16s pointed through the slits of the IDF outpost." (see [http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200306/fallows this) Canadian Monkey (talk) 15:32, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Fallows was writing nearly three years later. This plainly isn't "as originally reported". Every contemporary source I've seen (and I've seen a lot by now, believe me) speaks of a single incident. Presenting Fallows' view as "originally reported" is quite simply untrue, it misrepresents the source and it contradicts what was actually reported at the time. Fallows' revisionism is certainly relevant later in the article, but not in a section on the incident "as originally reported". -- ChrisO (talk) 17:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

This section, though labeled ‘as originally reported’, is chock full of references to non-contemporary sources. The Age article, which you added, was written in 2007, yet it is used extensively, to support three different statements, in different subsections of this section. Also currently referenced are articles by Sullivan, in the Jerusalem Post, written in mid-2001, an article by Schouman, in the Jerusalem Post, written in 2007, multiple references to Jeambar & Leconte, published in Le Figaro in 2005. We reference an article by Leigh, in the Daily Mirror, written in 2001 and Schapira’s ARD documentary, from 2002. No fewer than 4 (!) references to Tierney’ Glasgow Herald piece, from 2003, are made. We reference Carvajal’s IHT piece from 2005 and an anonymous Toronto Star piece, from 2001. We make two references to Goudsouzian’s Gulf News piece from 2001, and to Pnesy’s article, in le Monde, written in 2004.

We will either remove every single one of these anachronistic accounts from this section, in keeping with its “‘as originally reported” title, or we will allow non-contemporary sources alongside them. What we will not do is selectively include accounts from 2007, such as the O’Loughlin article, because we like what they say, while excluding accounts from 2003 because they are “non-contemporary”. Canadian Monkey (talk) 03:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I've already explained what I'm trying to do in this section: present what people said, saw and filmed at the time. For instance: Jeambar and Leconte provide the wording (in French - the English translations I've found are differently worded and inaccurately translated) of what Enderlin reported in September/October 2000. Shapira reports what the Palestinian doctors said in September/October 2000. O'Sullivan reports what the Israeli soldiers saw in September.October 2000. Psenny, Poller and O'Loughlin report what was filmed in September/October 2000. What's being excluded from this section is personal opinions of writers that weren't written in September/October 2000. Get the idea now? -- ChrisO (talk) 10:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I’ve read your explanation of what you are supposedly trying to do in this section, but even if I were to accept that this is what needs to be done, your explanation is at odds with what you are actually doing. Tierney’s article for example, written in 2003, is not used to describe how the incident was reported in 2000, but rather to provide a non-contemporary description of the father’s condition in 2003. To wit ‘a journalist who interviewed him in 2003 reported that "there is a web of deep scarring around his groin area. There is scarring on his legs and around his right elbow area. His right hand is withered and he is unable to move some fingers because of nerve damage. He limps.’ Similarly, the Carvajal piece is not used to describe how the incident was originally reported, but rather to render a non-contemporary account of how the Jordanian King visited al-Dura in an Amman hospital. There is no difference between Fallows’ 2003 account that “The Palestinian policemen, mainly in the Pita area, also fired at times” and the Toronto star 2001 account that “The Israeli troops initially responded with rubber bullets and tear gas before gunfire erupted”, or between O’Loughlin’s 2007 account that “A Palestinian policeman dies behind the wheel of his Land Rover within a few metres of the spot where two blurred figures can be seen” and Fallows’ 2003 account that “Scenes filmed throughout the day show smoke puffing from the muzzles of M-16s pointed through the slits of the IDF outpost.". We either allow them all, or none of them. Canadian Monkey (talk) 02:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

You may have a point about Tierney's description of the wounds - obviously that describes the situation as of 2003, not 2000, so it would probably be more appropriate in another section (probably in a discussion of the conspiracy theory since it's relevant to that). His description of the injuries and treatment are relevant, though, as they describe contemporary happenings. I've replaced Carvajal's description of the Jordanian king's visit with a contemporary source. Good catch on Fallows' descriptions; let's add those to the article, since again he's describing contemporary events. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Violation of edit restrictions on this page

Liftarn, this edit not only removed well sourced information (2 references are given), but is a clear violation of the 0RR restriction on this page. Please undo it, or you may be subject to editing restrictions. Canadian Monkey (talk) 14:21, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

He was right to remove your addition - not only was it not contemporary reporting (hint: the section is titled "The incident as originally reported"), but your text was ridiculously POV ("the clearly faked evacuation"?). In addition, your claim that "there were multiple gn battles" [sic] is original research and is not supported by any contemporary sources - please see and respond to my comments in the section above. -- ChrisO (talk) 14:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The question is not if he was right or not - we can debate that on the talk page and come to a consensus on how to include (or exclude) this material. This page is subject to 0RR, and he violated that restriction. I am sure you thought you were right when you violated 0RR on this page - but you were nonetheless restricted from editing it because of that violation. I'm giving Liftarn an opportunity to avoid a similar fate.

You raise an interesting point regarding the need for contemporary sources. I take it you will be shortly removing any reference to The Age article from this section, then, as it is from 2007?

As to the 'ridiculously POV' text you complain of - this is a statement taken, verbatim, from the cited source. Please read it. Canadian Monkey (talk) 15:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

AS I said on my talk page. It was not a revert. It was a removal of unsourced and biased text. Yes, there were sources, but they did not say anything like the text you entered. // Liftarn (talk)

It was a revert, as you removed everything, even changes that were not related to that particular source.[7] If you disagreed with the source, then per the #Conditions for editing, you could have tagged it with {{vc}} (verify credibility of the source) or {{vs}} (verify the information from the source), but you should not have simply reverted. --Elonka 20:01, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Challenge on one of the reporters

In relation to the Reuters' film and what is on it, Ed O'Loughlin is referenced. The article currently reads: "Two figures dressed like the al-Durrahs can be seen from several angles, sheltering behind an obstruction, and Abu Rahma is visible taking cover behind a white van parked on the opposite side of the road. An ambulance driver and a Palestinian policeman are shown being killed as they attempt to reach the al-Durrahs. Soldiers in the Israeli army base and Palestinian gunmen are seen exchanging bursts of automatic gunfire from opposite ends of the wall against which the al-Durrahs are sheltering.[21]" The reference given is: O'Loughlin, "Battle rages over fateful footage". The Age, October 6, 2007 This reporter is considered by some to be highly biased. See How to spot a slanted journalist Landes and My Israel Reporting Explained, february 22, 2008 Australian Jewish News --ED O'LOUGHLIN responds to critics of his reporting from Israel, chiefly Melbourne Ports MP Michael Danbyand Ed O’ Loughlin’s journalism: defending the indefensible - When responding to critics, it’s always a good idea to get your facts right Tzi Fleisher and more. So my point is, I don't think this is a good source used alone, and vote to strike anything that is backed up by his word alone. Is there Reuters film that is in the public domain that shows the ambulance driver and Palestinian policeman being killed? Is there film of the Israeli army base and PA gunmen exchanging gunfire? Or is there a reliable uncontroversial news report that has seen it and vouches for it? Tundrabuggy (talk) 14:50, 19 July 2008 (UTC) In fact in the Richard Landes articles he fisks this very reference and says "There is no evidence of an ambulance driver even shot, much less killed. If I’m wrong and there’s other footage depicting this, he’s seen entirely new evidence, and should tell us where he saw it." Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Middle East reporter criticised by pro-Israel groups shock. I'm afraid Ed O'Loughlin is a professional journalist, who works subject to editorial oversight. Totally passes WP:RS and his factual accounts of what he has seen cannot automatically be rejected just because some people don't like what he says more generally. Are you suggesting he's making this up? --Nickhh (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

This is just a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT on TB's part. Activists constantly criticize journalists if coverage of any controversial issue doesn't suit them - that just goes with the job. Please don't bother quoting Landes' website, it's an unusable source. On the ambulance driver, I've found multiple corroborating sources; I'll add those to the article. -- ChrisO (talk) 15:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Please dispense with the name calling. Just deal with the article and the issues please. Tundrabuggy (talk) 19:32, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

No, there are multiple problems here. One is that the Age article in question is from 2007, so it does not belong in a section called 'the incident as originally reported'. Another is that it makes reference to a tape of unknown origin, which is acknowledged to be heavily edited. A third is that it is used to support a statement about the Reuters tape, when the article does not say the source is Reuters. The Age is a reliable source, but since it is the only source making this claim about a video showing the ambulance driver being killed (a claim contradicted by multiple other sources), it needs to be properly attributed to the source (e.g; "accordign to O'Loughlin...), not stated as fact. 15:25, 19 July 2008 (UTC) Canadian Monkey (talk)

I'm not sure who the last speaker was but he is exactly right. His point is also well taken about 'the incident as originally reported.' It would seem to me that since we are talking about such a contentious issue, we really don't needed it referenced to a contentious reporter. If it's a fact that the Reuters tape says what O'Loughlin says it says, we should be able to find another reliable source to back him up! Also the author claims that it can be seen on the tape that "Soldiers in the Israeli army base and Palestinian gunmen are seen exchanging bursts of automatic gunfire," and others say they have not seen this on any film of that day. Surely we can find a less contentious source to back up his claims? I am not saying get rid of him, just add another source to it. Tundrabuggy (talk) 19:15, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

O'Loughlin is not "contentious", other than to those who choose to label anyone who reports in a way that they disagree with "contentious". You are making the fundamental error of confusing "I don't agree with" with "is therefore biased". There's a bit of Wikipedia history here as well, if you're not aware of it. --Nickhh (talk) 21:59, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly right. He's a professional journalist writing for a mainstream quality newspaper, and as such he epitomises the requirements of a reliable source. If pro-Israel campaigners don't like what he writes, so what? That's their problem, not ours. Journalists who write about contentious topics are often criticised by those with strong opinions on such topics. That's to be expected. It's certainly not a reason to exclude them. In the case of the Arab-Israeli conflict, you'd probably struggle to find a journalist whose reporting hasn't been criticised by someone.

Just to explain what I'm doing with this "incident as initially reported" section, I'm compiling a summary of statements made by eyewitnesses, footage shot or facts reported on or immediately after (up to 2-3 days) the shooting. The Reuters film was shot on the day of the incident, therefore it needs to be documented; in the same vein, I've documented the IDF soldiers' accounts of what they experienced at the time. In both cases the sources were published well after the shooting but I decided to include them as they were a straightforward description of contemporary footage (in the case of the video) and a statement - the only one I've come across - of the soldiers' point of view at the time. Both come from news reports, not opinion pieces. I've consciously excluded any commentary or analysis, hence the exclusion from that section of the very shrill Commentary opinion piece. That piece might potentially be useful at a later point in the article, in relation to the conspiracy theorists, but it certainly doesn't count as a contemporary perspective or as original reporting. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

This double-standard with regards to sources is unacceptable. Either we use only contemporary sources, in which case the Age article, written 7 years after the fact, is out, or we allow later commentary about the original material, in which case the Commentary piece is just as much a valid article form a reliable source, meeting every Wikipedia requirement for inclusion in that section. We don’t pick and choose which sources we want included based on our subjective evaluation of their tone. Canadian Monkey (talk) 01:56, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Not their tone but their content, nature and sourcing. The author of the Commentary piece is one Nidra Poller, who's described as "an American novelist and translator ... who has lived in Paris for 34 years" - i.e. not a journalist. O'Loughlin is a long-established professional journalist. Poller's article is an opinion piece, not a report - it's Poller's personal view of the issue. O'Loughlin's piece is a conventional news report published in a mainstream newspaper. Poller passes judgment on what she sees ("clearly faked evacuation") rather than just reporting it neutrally as O'Loughlin does. What I don't want to do in this section of the article is pass judgment on anything - simply to report neutrally what people said, saw and filmed on that day and immediately afterwards. Poller appears to be a strong proponent of the conspiracy theory; I've found a number of articles by her, arguing forcefully for the conspiracy scenario. Her views may well be relevant to the section of the article that covers the conspiracy theory (I'll have to have a think about how to work them in) but they're anachronistic for the "as initially reported" section, as nobody had advanced the conspiracy theory at this stage. -- ChrisO (talk) 10:18, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy does not allow for exclusion of sources based on “content” or “nature” that you don’t like. Nor does wikipedia policy require that sources be only professional journalists. It requires verifyability, and reliability – and Commentary meets both. Commentary is a reliable source, and can be used everywhere the Age is used. Poller’s piece is not an OpEd – it is a magazine article written for Commentary, which analyzes the court case, and the related video evidence – exactly as the Age piece, which is not ‘news’ – but a non-contemporary analysis by O’Loughlin of video footage and other evidence as it relates to a court case. As part of her analysis, Poller passes judgment on what she sees (calling the evacuation “fake”) – as does O’Loughlin on what he sees (calling Rahma’s cover ‘dubious’, describing the footage as ‘harrowing’). The only difference I can see is that O’Loughlin’s evaluation dovetails with your own, whereas Poller’s does not. This is a double standard, which is not acceptable. It is interesting that you would attempt to exclude Poller from this section based on your personal evaluation of her motives or her ideology, yet reject in the strongest terms those who try to do the same for O’Laughlin. The bottom line is this: If the Age piece, written in 2007 by a journalist criticized as having an anti-Israeli agenda can go in since it meets relevant WP policy, so can the Commentary piece, written in 2005 by an author who ChrisO criticizes as a being a supporter of conspiracy theories.Canadian Monkey (talk) 15:37, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's find a compromise on this. As I've said below, I'm trying to present a straightforward description of what was recorded, seen and said at the time of the incident, without passing judgment on it. O'Loughlin and Poller both describe the footage and both use some statements of personal opinion ("dubious", "harrowing" for O'Loughlin, "clearly faked" for Poller), though it has to be said that Poller's piece is more obviously polemical. Personal opinions written five or seven years after the incident clearly aren't relevant to "as originally reported", particularly so in Poller's case since absolutely nobody was claiming fakery at the time. So let's simply do what I've just done in the article: presented their statements of fact about what they say the footage shows, but without any statements of opinion about what they say the footage means. -- ChrisO (talk) 16:56, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I disagree that Poller's piece is more polemical, but my evaluation or yours are not relevant. If we are going to include The Age's 7 year old description of the tape, there's no reason not to include Commentary's 5 year old description of the same - especially since the latter clearly indicates what footage is being described (Reuters), whereas the former refers to and unidentified 'spliced-up' tape made up of different sources. Here's an alternative compromise I'm happy to go accept: Since the section is "as originally reported" - let remove ALL non-contemporary sources - Poller, O'Loughlin, Psenny's 2004 Le Monde article, etc... - and leave just those sources dated September-October 2000. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:07, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Nope. As I've said below, O'Loughlin clearly states the provenance of the footage he saw, so your premise there is wrong. The bottom line is that we're not going to include anachronistic personal opinions from either side in this section. -- ChrisO (talk) 17:11, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, no. If we allow anachronistic evaluations of the video material such as the Age article from 2007, in a section labeled "The incident as initially reported", we are going to allow all anachronistic evaluations of the video material, from any and all reliable sources, including Commentary, and you don't get to cherry-pick which parts of the material which comes from a reliable source are included, and which are excluded, based on your personal preference. Canadian Monkey (talk) 00:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

No, that's a thoroughly tendentious approach. "As initially reported" must necessarily include "as initially filmed". Factual descriptions of what was filmed are appropriate to that rubric. The France 2 footage was not the only footage shot that day, so the other footage needs to be described as well - it would be inaccurate and misleading to suggest that the France 2 footage was the only contemporary footage of the incident. A factual description of the footage is appropriate, as it describes what people saw on the day. Opinions of the meaning of what was filmed is not, because that's not a contemporaneous viewpoint. Thus I have no objection to citing Poller's factual description of the video, but we cannot include her opinion on the meaning of that footage in that section because it wasn't a contemporaneous viewpoint. As I've said before, Poller's opinions may be relevant later in the article, but certainly not in an "as initially reported" section. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Enough with conspiracy theorists and activists please! We are not talking personal views here but support for specific facts in this article. Tundrabuggy (talk) 13:55, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Not so. This has nothing to do with a Hollywood blacklist. Please do not throw up red herrings or make personal representations. I have not seen the Reuter's tape so I have no idea what was on it and neither agree nor disagree. I do know that other people, some who are principals in this argument (ie Landes [8] ) as well as others who are not principals( eg Australian MP Michael Danby [9]) and Australian Jewish News journalist Tzi Fleisher [10]have accused O'Loughlin of "Significant misrepresentation," "systematic bias against Israel" and of "half-truths, distortions, and obfuscation and omission of inconvenient facts – that have made his journalism so problematic." It isn't as if there has been no substantial errors or even misrepresentations by the media in this case. In fact, that is at the very heart of this issue. So rather than accusing the messenger of bias and error, why not simply find someone else who can substantiate O'Loughlin's testimony? Tundrabuggy (talk) 00:39, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Because there's no need to. O'Loughlin's testimony meets all the requirements of WP:RS, and no amount of WP:IDONTLIKEITs will change that. Be careful with what you're demanding, by the way: there's a great deal of conspiracy theory material in the article that's single-sourced. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

O'Loughlin may be "a professional journalist writing for a mainstream quality newspaper," but there is a problem with that. Consider what MP Darby wrote about O'Louglin and The Age when he gave up his subscription.

In 2005, Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council media analyst Tzvi Fleischer reported that when members of the Jewish community made a complaint to the Australian Press Council about O'Loughlin's reporting, a senior Fairfax editor responded that The Age had not published any letters critical of O'Loughlin because it "does not allow its letters page to be used to impugn the 'professionalism of their journalists". If there's anything worse than a biased, lazy and intemperate reporter, it's a newspaper management shich shields him from criticism and continues to publish his one-sided reports.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tundrabuggy (talk • contribs) 01:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

So an Australian MP doesn't like O'Loughlin - so what? Look, this line of argument is pointless: we have a well-established reliable sourcing policy, under which O'Loughlin clearly and indisputably qualifies as a reliable source, and we do not write off professional mainstream journalists just because a handful of activists doesn't like their reporting on a particular issue. That has always been the policy and it will continue to be the policy for the foreseeable future. If you don't believe me, try the reliable sources noticeboard - I guarantee that you will get the same response. -- ChrisO (talk) 10:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

So what you have here is a page under mediation and an incident in court because there may have been media dishonesty and bias involved. So you put up a reporter accused of bias as a sole source for important information, and when that is challenged, rather than simply find another reliable source to support his facts, you blow it off as unimportant. It is just this sort of one-sided insistence on one version of the facts that has led to this mediation, and will lead to many more -- and the kind of sourcing that does nothing for Wiki's reputation for NPOV and reliability. Tundrabuggy (talk) 13:18, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Why not, as suggested, take it to the noticeboard? This suggestion that there should be an "approved" and "unapproved" list for mainstream journalists, and furthermore that their presence on either list should be determined by how favourable their reporting is to a particular country, is mildly disturbing. Especially when it comes from someone complaining about supposed NPOV issues. --Nickhh (talk) 13:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

This is a false argument. We are talking about Israel here, not Antarctica.Tundrabuggy (talk) 14:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand this point. What makes Israel special or different in this respect, and how would that make my argument "false"? --Nickhh (talk) 14:14, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm dismissing it because our sourcing policies aren't subject to ideological tests. Neither you nor anyone else gets to veto sources because you don't like their point of view. That's all there is to it; if you don't like that policy, you're welcome to go somewhere with lower standards; try Conservapedia, perhaps? -- ChrisO (talk) 13:51, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Backing up again, this is what O'Loughlin says about the tape which is used to assert facts in this article.

But there is another edited tape, splicing together footage shot on the day by France 2 and other Western agencies, that depicts the surreal combination of ritual violence and lethal force, of stones and bullets, which has become all too common in Gaza in the years since then.

What tape? The article doesn't say it was a Reuters tape. It says it is spliced footage from unidentified sources and proceeds to interpret it for us. Unidentified spliced footage? Perhaps it is the same footage put together by the Palestinians a couple of days later in which some unidentified person spliced in the image of an Israeli soldier that was not in the original film? This has nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with standards of reportage. Tundrabuggy (talk) 14:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, it's not "unidentified" - reread what O'Loughlin says. He says very clearly that it was "shot on the day by France 2 and other Western agencies". -- ChrisO (talk) 17:02, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

He does not identify those "other Western agencies". Is it AP ? Reuters? We don't know. He does not say who made this "spliced-up" tape available nor where one can see it - it is an anonymous source whose validity cannot be verified.. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

That's irrelevant. We don't need to verify the sources of our sources - policy specifically discourages us from attempting to do so. As the very first line of WP:V says, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth — that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true." -- ChrisO (talk)

That is all well and good, but we still want to give the reader the most reliable and verifiable information that we can. Tundrabuggy (talk) 19:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course, but that doesn't extend to trying to verify sources of sources. We simply don't do that - never have, never will, never should. Our verification policy extends only to the sources that we quote, not the sources of our sources. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

We are not trying to verify sources of sources, but when O'Loughlin himself describes his source as a 'spliced-up' compilation from multiple sources, there's no reason why we can't say this in the article. Canadian Monkey (talk) 00:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Background

ChrisO has re-written the entire background section to appear that Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount was the precipitating cause of the Intifada, another subject and another controversy (see: Ain, Stewart The Jewish Week 12-22-2000 PA: Intifada Was Planned; Palestinians now acknowledge what Israel has been saying, that renewed violence was orchestrated for political purposes. ) and to expound upon Palestinian casualties. I therefore added this [11] at the beginning of the section: 'According to the Israeli government, the violence preceding the al-Durrah incident had been building for some few weeks. "The attacks began with the throwing of stones and Molotov cocktails in the vicinity of the Netzarim Junction on 13 September. This was followed by the killing of an Israeli soldier by a roadside bomb on 27 September, and the murder of an Israeli police officer by a Palestinian policeman in a joint patrol on 29 September."' sourced to: Letter dated 2 October 2000 to addressed to the Secretary-General of the UN 55th Session Agenda Item 40 The situation in the Middle East Because this letter discusses the "wave of violence in the preceding weeks" -- it was appropriate to place it in advance of the Sharon visit. ChrisO moved this down to the bottom of the third paragraph, in an obvious attempt to marginalize it. Further, I do not see what light is thrown on the al-Durrah incident by a long list of casualties on this day or that. But if we are going to include background that includes a laundry list of Palestinian casualties, let's start a few week earlier and acknowledge what Israel called a "wave of violence" initiated by the Palestinians that preceded the Temple Mount visit, and not bury it at the bottom. I am not sure however, what purpose is served by including more controversial material in an already controversial article. Tundrabuggy (talk) 21:20, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I can't say I'm particularly familiar with the controversy you mention, and you're wrong to claim some sort of ulterior motive ("bury at the bottom", etc). I've said nothing about what was "the precipitating cause of the Intifada", so I think you might be reading more into the article than is actually there. All I've done is to provide a snapshot of the events leading directly up to September 30th - the Temple Mount visit on the 28th was followed by the rioting and deaths on the 29th, and the general strike and demonstrations on the 30th were called at least ostensibly to protest at the events of the previous two days. As far as this article is concerned, the ultimate causes of the violence aren't really relevant - that's another debate entirely.

The letter to the UN was a good find on your part and I agree that it's relevant. I've moved it to the section on Netzarim because it helps to support the previous statement that the settlement was the scene of previous frequent confrontations. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I noticed that you added the line: " Major General Yom Tov Samia, head of the Southern Command, called the situation an emergency, saying the 18 soldiers there were trapped by approximately 5000 rioting Palestinians. "They lobbed 300 grenades, shot thousands of rounds of ammo." I've removed this, as it actually refers to the events of October 1st, not September 30th, as the previous line in the article makes clear: "Spin control problems aside, Samia says that after the Al-Dura shooting, he was confronted with an emergency situation at the junction." The sources do describe a major riot at the junction on October 1st, following the shooting - see for instance this BBC story. According to Reuters, only "hundreds" were involved in the previous day's violence, which was far less intense. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Change in structure - Israeli Investigations

Just running this by. I believe this whole article would read better and be more understandable if "Israeli Investigations" was changed to "Investigations" under which each investigation would have its own sub-section. That way the later section regarding the controversies would make more sense. Tundrabuggy (talk) 11:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Not really, since the Israeli investigation was the only one with any official accreditation. I'm going to post a revised narrative shortly that addresses the chronology of the controversy post-2001. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:07, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Nahum Shahaf

There is a contest going on over Nahum Shahaf's qualifications. One reporter O'Loughlin [discussed above](presumably a reliable one) insists that he had "no qualifications in ballistics or forensics." {[12] The original reference to this was this one [13] which said "Did ballistics experts take part in the tests? Shahaf concedes he is no authority on ballistics - however, he says, "as a physicist I read scientific material, both theoretical and experimental, and try to consult with several experts in this area, and so I have basically finished all the stages necessary in learning this topic." So the only reporter that says they have "no qualifications" is O'Loughlin. However, this bio [14] says this of him

As an Elcint employee he helped develop CT technology. From 1981, he was a leader in developing unmanned Israeli aircraft at Tadiran heading the unit-charged with formulating strategy in the area of visual intelligence. In 1989, he moved to Israel Aircraft Industries to develop helicopter missile technologies. He also studied the limitations of the civilian (nylon sheets system) defense arrangement against non-conventional ground to ground missiles and lectured on this subject in the army and at universities. The limitations of this system led the army to develop the 'mamad' system of especially designated protected areas.

In 1991, he set up the Natuf Company, developed a system to compress video material and was awarded a Science Ministry prize for this accomplishment. He also invented a see-through (walls) system for defense against ballistic attacks.

He founded the New Zionist Forum within whose framework the 'Ometz' movement to combat institutional corruption was created (by Arieh Avneri). He also led the fight in Ramat Gan and Givatayim to dismantle a cellular antenna (which was duly removed). He also developed a system to protect buildings from cellular antenna radiation (patent pending).

How can we possibly accept this idea of "no qualifications " with a straight face -- just because it was apparently reported in a "reliable source?" I have other sources also recording his inventions in the area of ballistics . Additionally, why should this business about Shahaf & Doriel's involvement with the Rabin assassination be included in this article on al-Durrah? Either this report holds water or it doesn't. Under what circumstances Doriel met Sharaf or what their outside interests are do not reflect on this report in the least. It should be struck as the intention is only to discredit the investigation by discrediting those who did it. Tundrabuggy (talk) 22:30, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

What you think - or for that matter what I think - of Shahaf is irrelevant and original research. We go by one thing only, namely what our reliable sources say. In this case, Shahaf is described by reliable sources as not having any ballistic or forensic qualifications (O'Loughlin) and as being "known mainly as an inventor" (Fallows). The involvement of Shahaf and Doriel in a previous conspiracy theory campaign is highly relevant in the view of our reliable sources; it is discussed in some detail in four separate sources, O'Loughlin (2007), Adi Schwartz and Gideon Levy in two Haaretz articles (also 2007) and a Haaretz editorial in 2000. The fact that he was a known conspiracy theorist is obviously something that those sources regarded as important and relevant in the context of criticising the reliability of his work. NPOV requires that we document both sides of an issue, or as WP:NPOV puts it, "fairly represent[ing] all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source." We do not engage in whitewashing or "spin" by cherry-picking only what individual editors think is likely. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

... and I can find dozens of reports of him as a physicist, [15], including your own reference [16]. And indeed he is a physicist, as well as an inventor. One of his inventions described above is in the field of ballistics. Sharaf describes himself as having "finished all the stages necessary in learning this topic." He describes himself as "qualified," - it is not "Original Research" to use his own description of himself. O'Loughlin was editorializing; he is the only reporter to describe him that way, and the facts simply do not back him up. Again, it should be struck. To claim that Shahaf is unqualified could be seen as dangerously close to WP:BLP, though I'm no expert in this area. As for the "fact that he is a known conspiracy theorist" being "highly relevant" in the view of your sources --maybe they are-- but that doesn't mean it is "highly relevant" to this article. Both articles are clearly editorializing -- not news, but opinion. If you want to put it in a separate section on "criticism of the Shahaf/Doriel report" along with a section of "support for the Shahaf/Doriel report", fine, if it is agreeable all 'round. But there is no reason to slant the article to imply that the authors of the report are a couple of unqualified kooks. Let's hear some real criticism of what the report says, with some facts behind it, not personal attacks, like "unqualified" and "conspiracy theorists." I would think it is WP:OR to try to demonstrate that, as you seem to be, not to mention, a serious case of WP:ILIKEIT. Tundrabuggy (talk) 01:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course it's relevant. Some of our sources are highly critical of Shahaf's report - we are required by the NPOV policy to report their criticism (no whitewashing, like I said) and thus the reasons for their criticism. We can't say "Haaretz criticized the report" and then not say why. Please get it out of your head that we're here to present what you consider to be "the truth". NPOV requires that "where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly" and that is exactly what is being done here - since some of our sources consider Shahaf to be an unqualified kook, as you put it, that viewpoint needs to be documented. BLP endorses that approach: "Criticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources", both of which clearly apply in this case. As for creating a criticism section, this is generally discouraged; the NPOV policy flags as a concern the "'segregation' of text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself." They are widely considered to be a symptom of bad writing. As Jimmy Wales himself has said, "the information should be properly incorporated throughout the article rather than having a troll magnet section of random criticisms." [17] -- ChrisO (talk) 07:54, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

In fact, in this Guysen News interview, Mr Shahaf is quoted as saying "I’m a scientist, a physicist specialized in ballistics and the technology of filming images." [18] Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC) http://www.guysen.com/mena.php?sid=352

That's certainly not what he claimed at the time (your interview is from 2002). Haaretz says in 2000: "Shahaf concedes he is no authority on ballistics - however, he says, "as a physicist I read scientific material, both theoretical and experimental, and try to consult with several experts in this area, and so I have basically finished all the stages necessary in learning this topic."" He doesn't claim any qualifications there. Likewise in your interview he also doesn't claim to have any qualifications, merely that he is "specialized in ballistics", whatever that means. It certainly wasn't what he was claiming in 2000. If you can find a statement from him that he has any sort of professional qualifications in ballistics or forensics, or that he had such qualifications in 2000, let's see it. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:54, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

huh? You are interpreting the material. Conceding that he is not an "authority" does not suggest he is unqualified! In fact the author himself uses the qualifier "however" -- to point out his qualifications: "as a physicist" he's "read the scientific material" consulted with experts and has "finished all the stages necessary in learning this topic." Nor is the implication that he was not qualified in 2000 borne out by the interview, as the question is asked " Nahum Shahaf, you were selected to head the Israeli commission established to investigate the circumstances of the A-Dura affair. A you a career military man?" Shahaf: "Not at all. I’m a scientist, a physicist specialized in ballistics and the technology of filming images. I was appointed on this basis." It doesn't get more clear than that! Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

So there we have it. There is no longer any reason to believe that Shahaf was unqualified or "had no qualifications" and now we have several named experts that were on the committee. Now let's discuss whether there is any real relevance to the idea that because some commentators consider the validity of Shahaf and Doriel's work is compromised by factors totally unrelated to the al-Dura incident, that we should therefore consider such in this article. In point of fact this report was vindicated by an independent ballistics expert "Schlinger has served as an adviser on ballistic and forensic evidence in French courts for 20 years." [19] We clearly do not need to put in such distracting and essentially irrelevant material in this article, simply because you like it.

Utter nonsense. The interpretation is entirely on your part, as you're going well beyond what the sources you're citing say. Being "qualified" in a subject or "holding qualifications" means something very specific - that you have received a professional certification from a professional body to verify that you have the knowledge and ability to perform a particular job or task. Shahaf says very clearly that his knowledge of ballistics is self-taught ("finished all the stages necessary in learning this topic"); he does not at any point claim that any third party has certified his expertise. I ask again: where has he said that he has any professional qualifications in ballistics or forensics? You have no source whatsoever for that assertion - it's entirely original research to claim that he had qualifications in ballistics or forensics when he himself hasn't claimed that. I think you can be pretty sure that O'Loughlin, an experienced professional journalist, has checked this point, and you have absolutely no business removing it because you think (on the basis of your personal opinion, apparently) that he's wrong. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry Chris, but he did claim it himself. Aren't you reading what I am putting up? He says "I am a scientist, a physicist specialized in ballistics and the technology of filming images. I was appointed on that basis." Tundrabuggy (talk) 18:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps this is something that is worth discussing in mediation? --Elonka 18:45, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

It could be discussed in mediation but the fundamental problem here is Tundrabuggy's desire to engage in original research. The issue here is very simple: O'Loughlin says that Shahaf has no qualifications in ballstics or forensics. No source I've ever seen has said that Shahaf has such qualifications. Shahaf himself has never said he has such qualifications, as far as I'm aware. Tundrabuggy is taking a statement by Shahaf that he "specializes in ballistics" and using that to justify a claim that he has professional qualifications in that area, even though no source has been cited that states that conclusion. That is absolutely overt, blatant original research. It's a textbook example in every respect. What's worse, he's using his own personal view to override that of a professional journalist in a mainstream newspaper, deciding that the journalist is wrong and removing content on that basis. We simply do not do that, period. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's take an analogy. Would you accept Robert Faurisson as an expert of the Holocaust? He has a background in literature that he considers relevant sine he claims to be trined in analysing texts, but he is not a historian. // Liftarn (talk) 20:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually it's fine, I just checked Shahaf's Wikipedia entry. It's well sourced article, with references and/or links to i) Shahaf's own website, ii) an interview he gave to a minor, partisan news website and iii) and to an account of some sort of award from a right wing Israeli media pressure group. Anyway, he appears to be a world-renowned polymath, and expert in pretty much every field from media criticism to investigative journalism to ballistics. If he says he's done a bit of "reading" and has tried to "consult with several experts", that counts as qualifications and expertise as far as I'm concerned, no matter what those pesky journalists say and despite the lack of any apparent objective evidence elsewhere as to his actual qualifications or professional history. Yes, I know it's the lowest form of wit, but seriously ..... --Nickhh (talk) 21:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

the above two comments were improperly canvassed here: [20], [21][22]. We now await for CJCurrie to join in with a predictable response. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Question: I'm not sure I'm following this. What makes O'Loughlin more qualified to testify about Shahaf than Shahaf himself? I'd assume that if Shahaf was incompetent to run the investigation, then clearly more than one person would make note of it.

p.s. Liftarn, the Holocaust comparison is uncivil and gross. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 21:49, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I second your PS. Tundrabuggy (talk) 00:22, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a quite appropiate comparission. Onde denialist compared to another. Both without training in the field, yet claims they are experts. // Liftarn (talk) 08:29, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Comparable if less inflammatory examples might be Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley (global warming denier) and Jonathan Wells (evolution denier), both of whom claim expertise in their subjects but have no qualifications in them whatsoever. Note that criticism of Monckton has been very similar to that of Shahaf: "Monckton's critics charge that "[his] science is self-taught and his paper qualifications nonexistent" and that "he is trying to take on the global scientific establishment on the strength of a classics degree from Cambridge." No idea what Shahaf's degree is in - assuming he has one - but it certainly ain't ballistics or forensics. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:42, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

The answer to your question is a very simple one called WP:RS. --Nickhh (talk) 21:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I just sent a request up to Wizardman on the mediation page. I was about to do it quite a bit earlier but as I was typing a thunderstorm took out the electricity for several hours. Three cheers for Edison! Tundrabuggy (talk) 22:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

As Jaakobou writes, clearly Shahaf is at least as qualified to describe himself as O'Loughlin is. Since this issue is disputed, and O'Loughlin seems to be the only one making the "unqualified" claim, WP:NPOV requires that we describe this along the lines of "Shahaf says that his training as a physicist specialized in ballistics qualifies him to conduct the investigation <insert reference to Shahaf interview here>. This has been disputed by O'loughlin who claims he has no qualifications <O'Loughlin refernce here>. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:07, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe. But that sure sounds pretty silly (IMO) for an encyclopedia article. "He both does and doesn't have qualifications" And it only requires one person qualified as a RS to make an unsubstantiated allegation against someone and that has to be included in the article? Here is what I would consider the relevant wiki arguments: WP:BLP--

Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it will violate the No original research and Verifiability policies, and could lead to libel claims.

-- The section on Verifiablity says: --

Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article and should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require high-quality reliable sources. Tundrabuggy (talk) 23:37, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

And what are "Exceptional Claims" according to Wiki?

• Certain red flags should prompt editors to examine the sources for a given claim:

• • surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources;
  • reports of a statement by someone that seems out of character, embarrassing, controversial, or against an interest they had previously defended;
  • claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or which would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and biographies of living persons. This is especially true when proponents consider that there is a conspiracy to silence them.

• Exceptional claims in Wikipedia require high-quality reliable sources; if such sources are not available, the material should not be included. Also be sure to adhere to other policies, such as the policy for biographies of living persons and the undue weight provision of Wikipedia:Neutral point of view.

Tundrabuggy (talk) 00:22, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

The issue of Shahaf’s personal qualifications, in the context of the IDF investigation commissioned by Samia, is a Red Herring. I will come back to these in a second, but it is important to note that while Shahaf was a member of the team, and in charge of the professional investigation, the investigative committee was comprised of clearly qualified experts – including Bernie Schechter, a former police chief superintendent, who is a ballistics expert and the former head of the weapons laboratory at the Israel Police's criminal identification laboratory, as well as Chief Superintendent Elliot Springer, also from the Israel Police's criminal ID lab. It is common practice, the world over, to have investigative committees headed by people who are not necessarily subject-matter experts themselves, who oversee the work of qualified experts, and the results of those investigations are rarely, if ever, presented as questionable because their head was not a professional.

Though a side issue in all of this, claiming as fact (rather than the apparently minority personal opinion of O’Loughlin) that Shahaf does not have “any forensic or ballistic qualifications or experience” skates very close to a WP:BLP violation. Shahaf is an award winning physicist, and was apparently qualified enough to present an academic paper at the American Academy of Forensic Sciences’ annual Scientific Meeting – a meeting which, according to our article about the AAFS, “gathers these professionals who present the most current information, research, and updates in this expanding field.”

I will await ChrisO’s rewrite, which will hopefully join the currently disparate sections discussing Samia’s committee, before making any major changes. For now, I will just properly attribute personal opinions to those making them.

I've asked for outside input on the Shahaf "qualifications" issue - see WP:RSN and WP:FTN (I raised it on both since there are overlapping issues). -- ChrisO (talk) 13:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Investigation "report"

Tundrabuggy added a list of bullet points and a citation, describing them as "the results and conclusions of the IDF/Shahaf report." I've checked the source and it actually isn't the IDF report of 2000; it's a 2005 presentation by Shahaf. If you read the abstract in the cited PDF file, it doesn't say anywhere that it represents the conclusions of 2000. The presentation is discussed in a New York Sun article of March 15, 2005 ("Engineer Casts Doubt on Veracity of Claims That Israelis Killed Palestinian Boy in 2000"), which describes it as "a presentation he made at the American Academy of Forensic Sciences annual meeting in New Orleans in February." None of the media reports from 2000 (nor Major-General Samia, who presented the IDF report) mention most of the points listed by Shahaf - note that the abstract is titled "Who Shot Muhamed Jamal Al-Dura? Is the Boy Still Alive?", which certainly isn't what anyone said in November 2000. This is clearly a factual error ("potentially untrue" as Elonka's editing conditions put it), so I've removed it for now. I think the points raised in the abstract are relevant to documenting Shahaf's views, and I intend to work them into a later section of the article, but it's clearly erroneous to describe the presentation as being what was said in 2000. It definitely doesn't belong in a section discussing the conclusions of the investigation in 2000. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

No. Removing the text wholesale is a violation of 0RR, and it is also a removal of a reliable source, both of which are violations of the #Conditions for editing. You can change the text, condense it, rewrite it, or move it around. But do not simply revert and remove it. --Elonka 18:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Elonka, let me spell this out for you: The text has been cited in error. It is a presentation from 2005. It is not "the results and conclusions of the IDF/Shahaf report" of 2000. The source does not claim that it is the conclusions of the 2000 report. I don't doubt that Tundrabuggy has added this in good faith, but he's misread it, and he's misstated what it represents. Your own editing conditions state that "potentially untrue" material may be removed. What part of this is not clear? -- ChrisO (talk) 18:49, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Let me suggest another approach: it doesn't belong in the section on the investigation of 2000 because it's not about the investigation of 2000. I'll move an amended version of it into a later section of the article. Bear with me for a few minutes, please. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:53, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Happy with this? -- ChrisO (talk) 19:09, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, much better. Kept the source intact, and reworked the information towards a compromise. Now anyone else who disagrees with that, is welcome to make further changes, towards a better compromise if they wish. The key is, to leave the sources in the article, and keep trying to change the work of other editors, rather than just removing it. As long as each edit is a bonafide attempt at compromise, I'm happy.  :) --Elonka 19:27, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Could I ask you, in the future, to please not fly off the handle? I said in my first contribution to this thread that I wanted to work the points into a later section of the article. I don't appreciate being threatened if I don't do that instantly. The first priority is to get incorrect information out of the article - last time I looked, we weren't on a mission to mislead. As I said before, your editing conditions explicitly permit "potentially untrue" material to be removed. Is that still the case? Incidentally, the material was also a copyvio, since Tundrabuggy copied it word-for-word (complete with HTML formatting) - Tundrabuggy, please don't do that in future. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Copyright vio -- NOT. I made it clear where it came from. It was sourced and presented as given. ("The following were the results and conclusions of the IDF/Shahaf report as reported to the American Academy of Forensic Sciences." It would have been in error to have followed with anything except their words) And btw -- there was nothing "incorrect" about what was in that post. It may have been written in 2005, but it is clear he is talking about the 2000 investigation. One need only read the methodology to see that. Tundrabuggy (talk) 01:55, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that's your personal opinion. It's not what the the source says at all. It doesn't say anywhere that it's the 2000 investigation. If you want to make that conclusion you need to have a source that says "this is the conclusions of the 2000 investigation". You can't simply assert that on the basis of your personal belief. Please don't go beyond what the sources say. As for the copyvio, this is something you need to be careful about. The section you extracted comprised a significant chunk of the abstract. Fair use depends on using a small proportion of a work, relative to the size of that work. In this case it was a large chunk of a small work, which is problematic from a copyright perspective. The text was also problematic in that it asserted Shahaf's views as fact without making it clear that it was a quotation, something which we're not supposed to do. That's why, when I reworked it, I paraphrased Shahaf's claims and couched them as his personal opinions rather than undisputed fact. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

By the way, this article is quite scattered. Why in the world would the results (not to mention the discussion) of the IDF investigation be in two different spots; one under the heading of Israeli investigations and another in a section in the end called Shahaf/Duriel? There seems to be little logic to this structure. Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

You're quite right about the scattered nature of that section. It's not the only problem with it - there is some redundant content, there are a number of factual errors about what sources say, and there are major NPOV problems (statements of opinion are asserted as fact and opposing views are barely mentioned). What I'm doing at the moment is rewriting the entire "Main issues" section from scratch, using a different approach to that which we have at the moment - focusing on what has been said by whom, rather than who has said what. It's based around the three key points of dispute - forensic evidence, medical evidence and the footage, plus alleged inconsistencies in statements made about the incident - and the conspiracy allegations. Since several people have said the same thing at different times, it makes more sense to go for a thematic approach, otherwise we will just end up with a series of repetitive statements about different people holding the same views (much like what we have now). There will also be a substantial amount of sourced criticism of the claims, to provide balance. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Please do not do a major rewrite in large sections without getting agreement from the others here. Many have worked hard on this article and do not want to see their changes discarded in such a move. If you want to do a major rewrite I suggest you do it on a separate page that we can look at and determine if we want to accept. Considering you are already talking about "conspiracy allegations" I suggest that any wholesale rewrite will be unacceptable to those of us who do not agree with your POV. Tundrabuggy (talk) 02:41, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Please work on any major rewrite in a sandbox page and get consensus for it before drastically changing the article. Canadian Monkey (talk) 03:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Just to be clear, though a sandbox version is definitely an option, I see no problem with rewriting the article from top to bottom. As long as the #Conditions for editing are followed (especially no deletion of reliable sources), a rewrite might actually be a good idea at this point. It's also worth noting that the article is currently at 100K in size, which is extremely large for a Wikipedia article. Some people's browsers have trouble with anything over 32K, and per WP:SIZE, we should consider splitting any article which has gotten this large. I'm not sure that there's enough content here to justify an actual split (I'll leave that up to the editors here to decide). But a rewrite, especially if it condenses over-long sections, is a reasonable option, as long as it would be a bonafide attempt to try and address everyone's concerns and produce a good consensus version of the article. However, it's also important to note that just because one editor rewrites the article, would not mean that the article would have to stay in that state! Other editors would be allowed to completely "rewrite the rewrite", as long as they were trying to bring the article into its best possible adherence with policies such as neutrality and "no undue weight". I do understand that if multiple editors are doing this, it might get too confusing, so I (or any other uninvolved admin) may step in and say "slow down with the changes". But for now, everyone has the right to edit as much as they want, in accordance with the conditions. --Elonka 06:20, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I've already effectively been rewriting the article from top to bottom. The only sections I haven't done yet are the intro, which I'll leave for last, and the "Main issues" section. I don't propose to use a sandbox version for the latter, since it has major problems (NPOV and factual accuracy in particular) which need to be resolved as a high priority. I can't guarantee I won't be deleting any existing sources since it's a rewrite from the ground up. I will be using more sources and perhaps using some existing sources in a different way, but as with other sections of the article, I will be seeking to use mainstream published sources rather than fringe or marginal ones - that may require the substitution of some current sources for other more reliable ones to make the same or similar points. The rewrite should be ready in a few days' time. I have to say it's proving to be quite a tough bit of work, certainly harder than the other sections I've tackled. What I'm doing, in effect, is compiling a sort of matrix/cladogram of who has made which claims and who has rebutted them, then working that into a narrative form. One thing that's already clear is that Nahum Shahaf is at the heart of this. All of the other conspiracy theorists are essentially just quoting him, and several have specifically credited him with convincing them of the conspiracy theory, though one gets the impression they didn't need much convincing in the first place... -- ChrisO (talk) 08:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, regarding the length issue, let's see how it turns out when I've finished the rewrite. When that's done I propose to submit the article for a good article review so that we can get some independent views on its quality. Ideally I'd like to get it up to featured article status by, let's say, September 30th... -- ChrisO (talk) 08:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly the kind of mind-set that I am talking about - one that says: "One thing that's already clear is that Nahum Shahaf is at the heart of this. All of the other conspiracy theorists are essentially just quoting him, and several have specifically credited him with convincing them of the conspiracy theory, though one gets the impression they didn't need much convincing in the first place." This is a prejudiced perspective on this article and if your rewrite pushes this theory, it will reflect your own original research. It was the facts of the case as they leaked out that convinced people, not one man: it was the 3 minutes of film out of 45 minutes of shooting or 27 minutes of film that became 18 minutes of film and now is 1 minute of film out of which 10 seconds were cut out in the end where the boy lifts his arm and looks out at the cameraman. It was the fact that there was no autopsy, no bullets recovered, and that Abu Rahma contradicts himself. It was the French ballistics expert and the Judge herself who makes certain statements regarding the testimony of both Enderlin and Abu Rahma. Tundrabuggy (talk) 18:39, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Shahaf has "eccentric obsession" says Gideon Levy of Haaretz

It would seem that Shahaf's credibility is poor, because this is the second "Israel is innocent" theory that he's been pushing. And the first theory is incompatible with this one since, back then in 2002, the boy was killed right in front of the camera (by Palestinians who couldn't have missed).

Furthermore, some considerable portion (likely most?) of Israeli society has no respect for Shahaf, as Haaretz says: "In an eccentric obsession, Shahaf has devoted the past years to this affair, after previously having also obtained "amazing material" on the murder of Yitzhak Rabin." Our article is damaged by weasel words giving a quite different impression: "leaving his other work to concentrate full-time".

On top of these and other weasel words in the article, we can see a great deal of original research on these TalkPages - "It was the facts of the case as they leaked out that convinced people" - nobody except the usual suspects is convinced. We're seeing "It was the fact that there was no autopsy, no bullets recovered" when Gaza was being raked by 300,000 bullets in those first few days of the Al-Aqsa intifada (that's what Maariv apparently says) and the Israelis bull-dozed the wall where al-Durrah was almost certainly killed.

Finally, we've now got firm evidence of disruptive behavior, a report written in 2005 made to appear (and defended) as if it's talking about the 2000 investigation. Behavior like this has to stop, otherwise we're looking at yet another article that makes the whole project look ridiculous. The fuss being made here is a disruptive waste of the time of good-faith editors in order to push a dubious piece of denial.

I abandoned trying to improve this article at the end of last year when edit-warriors insisted on re-inserting a hate-blog called "pajamas media" which hosts comments from raving Islamophobes with such claims as "Silly Allah :I'm not surprised given the Islamic culture of dishonesty:" We don't tolerate antisemitic sources, it's ludicrous we use Islamophobic sources. The entire project is being dragged through the dirt by the kind of reckless editing we're seeing here. PR^talk 14:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there a point to this? The fact that Shahaf's investigation was controversial and was treated with skepticism in Israel is already mentioned in the article, as are the allegations with regards to his role in alternate theories in the Rabin assassination. Is there a change you'd like to suggest to the current article contents? If so, why don't you actually make a suggestion? If not, kindly refrain from using this Talk page as yet another one of your endless soapboxes. Canadian Monkey (talk) 04:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

OK Palestine Remembered -- I get your point. Let me just add that Gideon Levy is not "Ha'aretz" -- he is Gideon Levy and he is entitled to his opinions. He may well represent a portion and even a considerable portion of Israeli public opinion but you really don't know, nor do I. However, if your read a little about the man you will see that he seems to have some fair ability and aside from his opinions on other matters (and even this one) he seems to be quite apt at a number of things and to paint him as an unqualified looney is not really fair. --I am willing to be convinced of your ideas if you have some accurate and valid sources (not "that's what Maariv apparently says") to put forward. In regard to the 2000 investigation re the 2005 summary: I think it is clear that the even though the article may have been written in 2005, it was a summary of the 2000 investigation. They were the same points that were used to describe their methodology in other articles. I will try to find evidence of that, if you want. I am sorry that you ran into "Islamophobic" edit warriors at this article, and that you quit the article on those grounds. But think what you like, I am not one. I just believe the article should tell the (unfolding)story in the most neutral and balanced way possible. I recognize that it is difficult because there are a lot of feelings and beliefs on both sides of the aisle. But if we stay intellectually honest and remain civil to one another we can go a long 'way. Tundrabuggy (talk) 01:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

If we read even "a little" about Nahum Shahaf on the link you have provided, we shall of course discover that you wrote most of the Wikipedia article you are proudly pointing people to as if it were some sort of bold and unbiased narrative. Hence why I complained about what was going on there. Intellectual honesty indeed. --Nickhh (talk) 23:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

"I think it is clear". Precisely. You think it is clear. That's the definition of original research - presenting your own personal interpretation as fact. We simply don't do that. The abstract makes no claims to be the results of the 2000 investigation; it's altogether silent on that point. It might be, but based on what it says, we can't say that it is. All we can say definitively is that it's a presentation Shahaf gave in 2005, and leave it at that. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:32, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The Incident as initially reported

the headline is useless, as the material underneath does not adhere to that. Furthermore, trying to stick to that criterion makes it virtually impossible to get a balanced picture of what is actually happening. I suggest changing this to "The incident as reported" and to clarify as necessary. The incident as initially reported would simply consist of a few minutes of testimony by Enderlin. Everything after that is later testimony...the cameraman's statement...the IDF's first and second investigations...etc etc. Unless I hear objections in the next day or so I will change the headliner. Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:07, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that approach entirely works, though "The incident as reported" seems OK. (The IDF's second investigation (Shahaf) is already in a later section.) Judging by your recent edits, you seem to want to discredit the initial testimony in that initial section. That doesn't fit the way that I've structured this article. It essentially comprises three elements: first the initial reporting and testimony (what the people involved said, did, recorded and saw - or say they saw - at the time, mainly concerning people who were there on the day of the shooting or very shortly afterwards - i.e. eyewitness testimony); second the follow-up investigation and controversy; third the specific areas of controversy. Don't forget it's not just an article about the controversy, it's about the incident itself. We have to be careful not to present it in an anachronistic fashion by presenting later controversies as being contemporaneous with the initial incident. Two major problems with the article before I started rewriting it were that it wasn't very clear about the timeline or development of the controversy, and it was repetitious - making the same points in different sections. If you start trying to put counter-claims into the "as reported" section, you will just end up with the same problems again. I'd suggest that you wait until I've redone the "Main issues" section, which should address your concerns about balance in the article. At that point you will also be able to see how the entire article works as a single coherent entity , rather than the usual incoherent patchwork quilt of different bits that people have added at different times. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Last point first. While we are waiting until you have rewritten the article, you are taking out sourced material on an arbitrary basis. [23] No one is trying to "discredit the initial testimony." It has been discredited already in a court of law and was reported to have been "retracted." The article is totally unbalanced (WP:UNDUE?) toward the initial reporting and everything that has happened since is relegated to the bottom, an old media trick used to bury information . Until recently there was virtually nothing here on the Karsenty appeal - one paragraph and then the verdict. That is because if anyone is discrediting anything- it has been your side, attempting to prove that everything other than France 2 perspective is fringe or conspiracy theory.(OR?)(POV?) How is it that the cameraman's testimony receives an enormous amount of coverage all at the top, despite the fact that it has been reported to have been retracted as well as discredited by the French court? By relegating this kind of information to the bottom of the page you are in effect burying it. The al-Durrah incident is more than simply the footage shot by Abu Rahma and reported by Enderlin. There is a much wider context that some here are intentionally trying to keep out of the article, which is essentially why it is in mediation here, and similarly why it has been in court. It should possible to synthesize this material into an acceptable article without using this arbitrary timeline that implies that what comes first is true and what comes later is "conspiracy theory." . As I have said before, for clarity's sake, and for maintaining a NPOV, it is imperative not to leave the reader with the impression that the initial testimony is the final word on the matter, particularly if there is evidence that it has been retracted or inconsistent. What was "initially reported" is what is basically at the top of the article. The rest of the article should clarify, not obfuscate, as it currently does. By the way, I have changed the heading to "The incident as reported" Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I've certainly not removed anything on an arbitrary basis - the basis is clearly explained in my edit summary. There's no need to keep harping on the dates; it's bad writing, it makes for unneeded repetition and it's not necessary in the first place, since the dates are already given in the references. The dates are only important if they make some kind of material difference to what is being said, and I can't see that being the case here. The purpose of the initial third of the article is to set out what you might call the mainstream narrative - the initial uncontradicted version of events that went around the world and caused such a massive impact, namely that al-Durrah was killed by the Israelis. I agree entirely that there's far more to it than simply the footage shot by Abu Rahma and reported by Enderlin. In fact, in expanding that initial section I made a point of looking for other sources, since the earlier version was almost entirely sourced to Abu Rahma and Enderlin alone. I looked in particular for reports filed in the hours between the shooting itself and the circulation of Abu Rahma's footage. I've found no evidence that Enderlin's report was circulated (I would actually have been surprised if it had, since news agencies generally distribute footage without commentary); in fact, the very first report of al-Durrah's death appears to have come from Reuters, shortly before Enderlin's broadcast. The initial account was accepted by all the players - even the IDF - at least until Samia's report in November 2000, which was disowned by the IDF high command. Samia's alternative version was more or less accepted by Shapira's 2002 documentary, and it wasn't until 2003 that the media began reporting on the conspiracy theory that was being promoted in the blogosphere by Shahaf and others. So in explaining the original version as stated at the time by the participants, we can provide context for its impact. We also set up the rest of the article to explain how, why and who disputed the original version.

In short, the structure of the article is really quite simple. The first section sets out the original story. The second section explains how the controversy developed over time. The third section sets out the specific points of controversy. That's all there is to it. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

actually what you removed was a sourced and as far as I'm concerned it was a revert. [24]

Attribution

ChrisO removed several of my changes, which had attributed O’Loughlin’s claims to him, with the edit summary “rm erroneous attribution, changed wording ("claims" is a word to avoid)”. I have several issues with this edit. Firstly, the attribution is certainly not erroneous – all the claims I had attributed to O’Loughlin clearly come from his Age article. Perhaps ChrisO was misled by the fact that one of these attributed claims (“the two asserted that the assassination was the work of a conspiracy headed by Shimon Peres, who was later to become the President of Israel.”) was additionaly sourced to the Schwartz article. But if there is any error, it is in the original sourcing of this claim to the Schwartz article – which makes no such claim. Peres is not mentioned in that article at all. As far as the “claims is word to avoid” explanation, ChrisO is interpreting what WP:WTA says rather more broadly than what the relevant passage actually says, and eliding nuances and exceptions made there. “Claims” can be used in certain circumstances – such as when there are multiple, conflicting accounts – as is the case here. What is not permissible, according to that section, is to “use "claim" for one side and a different verb for the other, as that could imply that one has more merit.” I don’t want to quibble over this – so I’ll assume good faith here, and give ChrisO a chance demonstrate his good faith by editing the ‘Israeli Investigation’ section to remove the use of “claimed” there. Meanwhile, I will again attribute O’Loughlin’s claims to him, without using “claims”. From a stylistic point of view, this might be a little repetitive, but then again, this may draw attention to the problem we have in this section – over-reliance on a single source. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. You might be right about the Peres/Schwartz issue - I've looked again at the article in question. As regards "claims", the reason we generally regard it as a word to avoid is because it's so often (mis)used to convey the message that (so to speak) "it's just a claim". I generally use other formulations such as "asserted", "stated" or "said", which don't have the same connotations. If you want to change the "Israeli investigation" section to remove a use of "claimed" there, that's fine by me. I may slip up occasionally and use "claims" or derivations when I shouldn't, so if you notice any more examples, please flag them up or change them yourself. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:31, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Related discussion

ChrisO has filed a Request for Comment concerning my administrative conduct, as regards my judgment in imposing editing conditions and managing articles in a state of dispute, especially this one. Anyone who wishes to offer an opinion, is welcome to do so: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Elonka. --Elonka 18:26, 5 August 2008 (UTC)