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→Criticism about Willacy's reporting of Afghanistan reporting (November Platoon): responded to direct comment and updated indenting to more clearly show threads of conversation.
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: @[[User:Aeonx|Aeonx]], thank for starting this section to discuss the recent changes to the page. Are you able to cite the specific sections of the Brenton report that question Willacy's reporting on war crimes by Australian forces? In relation to Willacy's book, Rouge Forces was published by [[Simon & Schuster]], one of the world's leading publishers. Such publishers have extensive processes in place to verify and fact check author claims. Do you have any evidence that this did not occur? It is entirely expected you would not find their verification in public documents. The lack of such public documentation does not demonstrate this did not occur. Have you contacted the publisher for comment? The book, which details alleged crimes committed by the SAS, is also irrelevant to the sources you have cited on the page which instead relate to reporting of other incidents of alleged war crimes. That aside and acknowledging that the page is about the person Mark Willacy, I think your edits which now cite national media sources are more appropriate. I have made some edits that I think more succinctly and accurately represent the nature of the dispute you cite with Willacy's work. [[User:Sparticusmaximus|Sparticusmaximus]] ([[User talk:Sparticusmaximus|talk]]) 14:02, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
: @[[User:Aeonx|Aeonx]], thank for starting this section to discuss the recent changes to the page. Are you able to cite the specific sections of the Brenton report that question Willacy's reporting on war crimes by Australian forces? In relation to Willacy's book, Rouge Forces was published by [[Simon & Schuster]], one of the world's leading publishers. Such publishers have extensive processes in place to verify and fact check author claims. Do you have any evidence that this did not occur? It is entirely expected you would not find their verification in public documents. The lack of such public documentation does not demonstrate this did not occur. Have you contacted the publisher for comment? The book, which details alleged crimes committed by the SAS, is also irrelevant to the sources you have cited on the page which instead relate to reporting of other incidents of alleged war crimes. That aside and acknowledging that the page is about the person Mark Willacy, I think your edits which now cite national media sources are more appropriate. I have made some edits that I think more succinctly and accurately represent the nature of the dispute you cite with Willacy's work. [[User:Sparticusmaximus|Sparticusmaximus]] ([[User talk:Sparticusmaximus|talk]]) 14:02, 16 November 2021 (UTC)


I'm fairly sure that simply describing the publisher as "one of the world's leading publishers" does not provides any evidence that they have "extensive processes in place to verify and fact check author claims", my guess is more likely they just have processes to avoid legal actions on potential libel claims. I have found no evidence (including in my copy of the book) that any verification or validation of the claims occurred. Are you aware of any (non-speculative) evidence that it did?
::I'm fairly sure that simply describing the publisher as "one of the world's leading publishers" does not provides any evidence that they have "extensive processes in place to verify and fact check author claims", my guess is more likely they just have processes to avoid legal actions on potential libel claims. I have found no evidence (including in my copy of the book) that any verification or validation of the claims occurred. Are you aware of any (non-speculative) evidence that it did?
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::"The lack of such public documentation does not demonstrate this did not occur. Have you contacted the publisher for comment?", Nor does it provide evidence it did occur! I have not undertaken any [[WP:OR]]. [[User:Aeonx|Aeonx]] ([[User talk:Aeonx|talk]]) 20:18, 16 November 2021 (UTC)


::: It is standard in publishing to verify authors' claims. The publisher's reputation is on the line and it is this reputation backed their processes for verifying content, that carries more weight than evidence free critique of the contents of their publications. If there's any actual evidence that counters the claims made in the book then this would be worth noting, but I don't think claims that the book is somehow unverified are fair considering the reputation of the publisher. Keep in mind of course that this is all moot in relation to the edits you have been making the [[Mark Willacy]] page, which relate to separate alleged incidents of war crimes by the ADF. Of those, I think your recent edits are helpful and the section in question now represents a more fair and clear description of the critique of Willacy's work on the topic. [[User:Sparticusmaximus|Sparticusmaximus]] ([[User talk:Sparticusmaximus|talk]]) 23:04, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
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"The lack of such public documentation does not demonstrate this did not occur. Have you contacted the publisher for comment?",
Nor does it provide evidence it did occur! I have not undertaken any [[WP:OR]].
[[User:Aeonx|Aeonx]] ([[User talk:Aeonx|talk]]) 20:18, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Revision as of 23:04, 16 November 2021

Fake claim about reporting from more than dozen Middle Eastern countries

The source says "Mark has reported from dozens of countries across the Middle East and Asia, covering stories in Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Morocco, Lebanon, Iran, South Korea and Thailand it does not say more than a doezen middle east countries which an editor has consistently insisted. further skewing of this statement is disruptive and vandalism. LibStar (talk) 23:14, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Removing puffery, uncited and irrelevant book reviews, and minimising peacocking

There are a number of issues with the article currently, which I have attempted to fix but my edits have been reverted by @Tokyo Oz, who I believe may have a direct interest in this article (due to this being the sole article they edit on Wikipedia). I would like to ensure that this article aligns to address what I perceieve as puffery and peacocking which were originally added by @Tokyo Oz seemingly to inflate the article (speculatively, perhaps for book sales). I hold out an olive branch to try to resolve these issues without administrator sanctions, but the article needs to present a neutral point of view. Selectively including uncited book reviewed and including them on the author's article is not balanced. I ask please identify what issues there are with my edit: [1], and advise why it was reverted without comment nor notification. I ask we use the article talkpage to discuss, rather than my talkpage, following the comments made here: [2]. Aeonx (talk) 04:45, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism about Willacy's reporting of Afghanistan reporting (November Platoon)

@Sparticusmaximus, I'm attempting to add balance to the article regarding Willacy's allegations about Australian special forces' war crimes; Willacy's commentary on this matter is not limited to his 3rd book but also a series of television and ABC News online segments published by his employer, ABC News. The Veteran Support Force published letter from November Platoon Commander, Heston Russell (also apparently the Managing Director of the Veteran Support Force), directly counters the alleged war crimes picked-up and published by Willacy here: [3]. In the interest of avoiding WP:OR and keeping to the cited sources, I've updated the section you reverted, I think this addresses your concerns. To elaborate on my concerns on the article, and why I think this section is necessary is that Wikipedia may be inavertedly peacocking Willacy and his journalism to provide truth to the allegations or even promote his books (which really is not encyclopaedic). The reality is the evidence for some allegations is questionable as noted in Brereton Report. As far as I can identify from public sources, there was no independent investigative verification or validation done by the book's publisher of Willacy's claims with regards to his reporting on alleged war crimes by Australian soldiers in Afghanistan. Aeonx (talk) 11:34, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Aeonx, thank for starting this section to discuss the recent changes to the page. Are you able to cite the specific sections of the Brenton report that question Willacy's reporting on war crimes by Australian forces? In relation to Willacy's book, Rouge Forces was published by Simon & Schuster, one of the world's leading publishers. Such publishers have extensive processes in place to verify and fact check author claims. Do you have any evidence that this did not occur? It is entirely expected you would not find their verification in public documents. The lack of such public documentation does not demonstrate this did not occur. Have you contacted the publisher for comment? The book, which details alleged crimes committed by the SAS, is also irrelevant to the sources you have cited on the page which instead relate to reporting of other incidents of alleged war crimes. That aside and acknowledging that the page is about the person Mark Willacy, I think your edits which now cite national media sources are more appropriate. I have made some edits that I think more succinctly and accurately represent the nature of the dispute you cite with Willacy's work. Sparticusmaximus (talk) 14:02, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fairly sure that simply describing the publisher as "one of the world's leading publishers" does not provides any evidence that they have "extensive processes in place to verify and fact check author claims", my guess is more likely they just have processes to avoid legal actions on potential libel claims. I have found no evidence (including in my copy of the book) that any verification or validation of the claims occurred. Are you aware of any (non-speculative) evidence that it did?
"The lack of such public documentation does not demonstrate this did not occur. Have you contacted the publisher for comment?", Nor does it provide evidence it did occur! I have not undertaken any WP:OR. Aeonx (talk) 20:18, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is standard in publishing to verify authors' claims. The publisher's reputation is on the line and it is this reputation backed their processes for verifying content, that carries more weight than evidence free critique of the contents of their publications. If there's any actual evidence that counters the claims made in the book then this would be worth noting, but I don't think claims that the book is somehow unverified are fair considering the reputation of the publisher. Keep in mind of course that this is all moot in relation to the edits you have been making the Mark Willacy page, which relate to separate alleged incidents of war crimes by the ADF. Of those, I think your recent edits are helpful and the section in question now represents a more fair and clear description of the critique of Willacy's work on the topic. Sparticusmaximus (talk) 23:04, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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