Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America

Articles for inclusion

Hello WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America. In 2018 I created two articles which I believe are suitable for inclusion within your project: William Ralganal Benson and Mary Knight Benson. Kind regards to all, Hu Nhu (talk) 05:01, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Is there a place to notify project members of articles for deletion?

Here is a recent article for deletion discussion taking place. Is there a better place to post this notice? Pyrrho the Skeptic (talk) 16:51, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

It automatically gets listed in Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America/Article alerts if the WikiProject is listed on the article talk page, which is the case with this AfD. You can "subscribe" to Article Alert notifications by placing those of interest on your watch list. Netherzone (talk) 17:40, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining. Pyrrho the Skeptic (talk) 17:44, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Choctaw

This article is twice as long as the recommended article length. It's almost unreadable. I've been trying to summarize sections and shortened it. Are there more experienced Wikipedians who might offer solutions? There isn't a general Choctaw history article. Are there protocols for cleaving a giant section out of a general article to create a more specific article? Yuchitown (talk) 17:02, 24 October 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown

Since the history sections are the biggest part of this article, you can just create a new article entitled History of the Choctaw and move all the history material from this article into it. You'll need to write a synopsis of the material as the lede for the new article. Generally the lede should have a paragraph for each section of the body. You can then copy the synopsis to this article with appropriate citations. See WP:SPLIT for more details. Indyguy (talk) 18:27, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Ugh. I figured it wasn't okay to just copy-and-paste the history sections into a new article, but damn, that is an involved process. Yuchitown (talk) 20:09, 24 October 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown

Don't lose hope, Yuchitown. There are brilliant minds here and amazing writers involved in this project. I think you are on the right path with a split and we will work together to make it happen should the community agree with the proposal. --ARoseWolf 14:53, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for that! And thank you for voting on the split discussion at Talk:Choctaw#Splitting_proposal. Yuchitown (talk) 17:34, 25 October 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown

By the way, when you’re copying and pasting into a new article, it’s allowed, but you do have to include an attribution link at the talk page. If you want to ping @Diannaa:, she can explain what to do. Montanabw^(talk) 17:54, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

There's two steps: Include an edit summary at the destination article that says where you got the content from. Sample edit summary: Copied (or moved) content from [[<page name>]]; see that page's history for attribution. The {{Copied}} template goes on the talk page of both the sending and the receiving articles. Here's a streamlined version with the essential parameters: {{Copied |from = |to = |to_diff = |date = }}. The template is optional; the edit summary is mandatory. There's full details at WP:Copying within Wikipedia.— Diannaa (talk) 19:27, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Sappony

Can some of you look at Sappony and the recently opened discussion at Talk:Sappony? I have gotten into a dispute with @Federer20201: over the article, and I am recusing myself from further action there. - Donald Albury 23:07, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Braves (Native Americans)

The Braves (Native Americans) article is a mess - lots of unsupported statements, broad brush stereotyping, colonial sources etc. I changed it to a redirect to Stereotypes of indigenous peoples of Canada and the United States, but this has been reverted due to lack of discussion. Rather than get into an argument over being bold, etc, I've taken it to the talk page. Would appreciate input from project members there.Vizjim (talk) 07:08, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

My first impression is that while the article is poorly sourced, it does make it clear that the term is an ethnic stereotype. I think we need to improve the article rather than make it go away. - Donald Albury 14:57, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

That may be because I've done some radical surgery on the article today. Here's the version that was up when I made the original comment [1].Vizjim (talk) 15:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

And I have to admit that I was not able to find reliable sources that discuss the use of "brave" to refer to American Indian men. So I withdraw my argument to keep the article. - Donald Albury 16:43, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I responded at article talk. I think you can go ahead with the merge and redirect now. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:40, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't agree with redirecting the article to one about ethnic stereotypes because a lot of reliably sourced information on Native American culture and warfare was lost. The problem seems to be with the title, not the subject matter, and therefore I have renamed it Native American Warrior and replaced controversial terms like "brave" with more neutral ones like "warrior". 53zodiac (talk) 19:23, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

I've reverted the changes that 53zodiac made, because they simply returned the article to being a mish-mash of various tribes along with stereotyping assumptions that all Native American peoples are Plains Indians (the equivalent would be an article on European soldier, and there's a reason that that doesn't exist). It's useful to have the page as a redirect for exactly that reason. However, 53zodiac is also correct that there was quite a bit of perfectly good, sourced material on that page. I would suggest extracting that information and adding it to less broad-brush articles. A lot of it could go into American Indian Wars, then there are more specific articles such as Eagle feather law where some of this info might find a home. Vizjim (talk) 06:44, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

As discussed on the talkpage of the redirected article, wouldn't it make more sense to change the wording of the text to refer only to the Plains Native American warriors who fought in the Indian Wars of the mid to late 19th century? Perhaps a title like Plains Native American Warriors in the 19th century would be more acceptable? 53zodiac (talk) 17:12, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

That title seems overly specific to the point of being absurd. I agree with merging it into the Stereotype article as the best course of action along with moving other materials in already existing pages.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 18:17, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Massachusett

Massachusett is insanely long, but the overwhelming majority of the text is not about the Massachusett tribe but regional groups. I flagged it for being inadequately referenced and being too long, but any help welcome! Yuchitown (talk) 18:06, 7 November 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown

I found most of the text to be related to the tribe, but removed what seemed like it could be deleted without taking away context. Since you tagged it, are you planning on doing the work to resolve it? It's my pet peeve on Wikipedia when people lazily tag something as being too long but doing nothing to fix it, like creating a new page for the history section and then summarizing the contents.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 20:38, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I will work on the article; however, I do have gainful employment, family, etc. The point of tagging it and posting here is to step back and get other people's perspectives and feedback. WP:AGF. Most everything after the 17th century is a goulash of New England tribal histories, with a lot of material about Wampanoags, not Massachusett people. Yuchitown (talk) 22:14, 7 November 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown

I would just like to say that one reason I may tag an article rather than just fixing it is that I may not know the subject very well, and hope that the tag will jog someone else who knows more about the subject to work on it. I also believe it is better to tag a problem, even if I don't have the time or knowledge to fix it right away, than it is to ignore the problem. - Donald Albury 01:32, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

I got the bulk of the heavy lifting finished with Massachusett and setting up Praying Indians of Natick, but now real-world work takes precedent. If anyone wants projects, the articles about Native topics in New England are terrible. Even the biography stubs are riddled with errors. See Category:Native American history of Massachusetts. The surrounding states aren't much better. Yuchitown (talk) 17:06, 15 November 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown

Language diversity conversation on Maryana's listening tour

Bogreudell, I logged in to respond to a wiki-friend and email some family and saw your question on my talk page. Not sure when I will log in next so I figured this was as good of a place as any to send you to. The Cherokee Wikipedia is and has been basically inactive for over a year so I doubt many if any would respond there. I am sure there are others here that may be interested in your question so please repeat and extend your invitation to this project. Good luck to you and I wish I could attend. I find languages and cultures to be fascinating and enlightening. I wish I could be here to experience it. This is a great project full of amazing and valuable editors from all paths in life. I probably wont respond again as I am logging out. --ARoseWolf 20:01, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

@ARoseWolf: Thank you so much for your response while away and for your recommendation. I'm sorry to hear that Cherokee Wikipedia has become inactive. I'll leave a section here inviting anyone to join the event! — Bogreudell (talk) 15:36, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Dene music

… is currently up for deletion. I'm finding it difficult to think of an appropriate resolution. There's an apparent dearth of sources. One option I thought of was using Drum dance to create an article on the Dene drum dance, which is the main point of departure for most ethnographic studies on Dene music. But then it turns out there are sources on drum dance(s) in the Great Lakes region (see [2], [3], [4]). I suppose the article could be divided into sections on the Great Lakes drum dance and the Dene drum dance. Thoughts and expertise welcome. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 22:43, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

• I've withdrawn the nomination. Your latest source definitely tipped the scales in favour of keep-and-improve. The original article's use of the most expansive version of Dene identity threw me off. Vizjim (talk) 06:37, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Piscataway Conoy Tribe of Maryland

Hello, I am Smerdyakov911 and I am working on an article for Piscataway Conoy Tribe of Maryland. I am running into some roadblocks finding reputable sources and I would love some feedback. User:Smerdyakov911/Piscataway-Conoy Tribe of Maryland. I also don't know how to remove the hyphen from the title. Also open to suggestions if there are articles that are higher priority, this was just one of the first ones I saw. Thanks. Smerdyakov911 (talk) 14:25, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

There are *so* many Alaska Native tribes and villages that are redlinked. Some of these are quite large and influential but are still redlinked. Yuchitown (talk) 15:53, 9 November 2021 (UTC)Yuchitown

Yuchitown, I jumped online for a few minutes to kill some time. I don't have long but I will do what I can with the list. I know Anaktuvuk Pass has an article so I will link it. --ARoseWolf 17:29, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Language diversity roundtable with WMF CEO tomorrow, Wednesday 11/10

My name is Daniel and I’m the director of Wikitongues, which helps people get started with mother-tongue documentation and revitalization. We also maintain a User Group and have organized a roundtable chat about language diversity within the Wikimedia movement as part of Wikimedia CEO Maryana Iskander’s listening tour. We would be honored if anyone from WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America could join us, especially if you have contributed to or are actively involved in any mother-tongue Wiki projects, from mother-tongue Wikipedias to adding your language to Commons, Wiktionary, etc. From the opposite end, if you have been unable to initiate or participate in any mother-tongue Wiki projects and have feedback for Maryana about how things could be improved, your insights would be valuable.

If you’re free on Wednesday 11/10 @ 10 am ET, I can add you to the calendar invite. Just reply to this post with your email. If you can't attend but have ideas or questions for Maryana, please reply to this post with your comments and the Wiki project you represent, and I will pass them along. I apologize for the short notice, here: Maryana's schedule has filled up fast and we were only able to secure this last-minute time slot!

Thank you very or in my ancestral language, Yiddish, a sheynem dank. — Bogreudell (talk) 15:46, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Lee_Maracle_and_MOS:ETHNICITY

Watchers may be interested in this discussion I just started. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 15:31, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Eskimo archery

Input welcomed on the talk page of the article Eskimo archery. Quite apart from the use of past tense throughout the article, the article should also probably be moved to Inuit archery.Vizjim (talk) 21:47, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Frybread and Bannock - proposed merge

These articles seem to be describing pretty much the same thing, but with different names from First Nations and Native American nations. Suggest merging (discussion is on the Frybread talk page.) Vizjim (talk) 17:15, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

"King Hendrick"

Can anyone help me figure out who this is? King Hendrick (a WP:INTDAB) refers to two people, but neither of the transliterations of their names seem very close to "Soi-en-ga-rah-ta". The closest seems to be Sayenqueraghta, which page 473 of this old journal identifies with "King Hendrick" without citing Schoolcraft. A recent book about the two Hendricks mentions "Soi-en-ga-rah-ta" but the relevant portion of it isn't on my Google preview. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 15:09, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

The answer is: it's both of them. I got The Two Hendricks from the library. Henry Schoolcraft relied on Giles F. Yates, who conflated the two Hendricks. See Hinderaker, Eric (2011). The two Hendricks : unraveling a Mohawk mystery. Harvard University Press. pp. 283–284. ISBN 978-0-674-03579-9. OCLC 318875573.

[In 1846] Schoolcraft published an expanded second edition [of Notes on the Iroquois]. … Though the first edition contained no mention of Hendrick, the second … included a long biographical sketch of him. Schoolcraft relied for his account on correspondence with Giles F. Yates, a local historian of the Mohawk Valley. … [284] Yates got a few things right, but his account of Hendrick contained many errors of fact, nearly all of which have long persisted in other historical accounts. Yates erroneously gave Hendrick the Mohawk name Soi-en-ga-rah-ta. He posits a single Hendrick who visited London twice …

Content essay

@CorbieVreccan, @Yuchitown, @Indigenous_girl and some other members will already be aware of this, but a while ago there was work done in my sandbox on an Wikiproject essay on determining Indigenous American identities. Have now moved this into Wikiproject space. Have a look to see if it needs more work, please, and then we need to determine where it should be placed on the Wikiproject page etc. Vizjim (talk) 13:59, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America/Determining Native American and First Nations identities

@CorbieVreccan: Could you add the redirects for the Shortcuts? Then shall we add this to the front page? I have to confess I don't know how to do that. Vizjim (talk) 14:22, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

That's what I was just doing :) : Shortcuts made: WP:NATIVE-IDENTITY, WP:NDNID, WP:BLOODMYTH, WP:NOTCHEROKEE, WP:NOTNDN - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 17:16, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I think we need a Resources section on the main page, up fairly high. We sort of have that in a couple places, but I only see a few books listed. Some of the resources I think we need to list are in the essay itself. We also have a discussion on doing a style guide, which we never completed, that should be included (linked as-is for now, and can certainly be put into finished form at some point... unless we did and it's slipped my mind where we put it...). - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:40, 23 November 2021 (UTC)