Talk:Khojaly massacre

Mentioning of massacres of Armenians

Massacres of Armenians by Azerbaijanis/Azerbaijani military forces should be mentioned in this article to provide unbiased information and additionally to provide necessary background information. There were numerous massacres of ethnic Armenians leading up to Khojaly (Sumgait, Baku, Khirovabad, Operation Ring) and also 6 weeks afterwards (Maraga). The lack of references to these atrocities paints an incomplete picture of what was going on in the region in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Lack of references to these massacres and pogroms is suggestive of a political bias in this article. I included references to these massacres yesterday. Wikipedia has a duty to be unbiased, apolitical, and provide as much legitimate information as possible. The provided justification for reversion does not make sense as it was claimed to mention these is presenting a bias. I would argue that NOT presenting these massacres against Armenian civilians creates and perpetuates a bias. I am going to restore the edits that I made before the reversion. Any exceptions with this can be discussed here.Preservedmoose (talk) 16:36, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

The article already says "During the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, both Armenians and Azerbaijanis became victims of pogroms and ethnic cleansing", so going into one-sided details introduces unbalancies. Undue mentions of other events violate NPOV and WP:UNDUE policies, introducing a partisan language. The article is not about other events, like Maraga massacre, but about one specific massacre. Brandmeister^talk 17:50, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, both Azerbaijanis and Armenians were targets of pogroms. Like in Armenia, the entire Azerbaijani population was ethnically cleansed, and there were pogroms like in Gugark with numerous casualties. So your edits are unbalanced and POV. And you cannot overload "further information" with so many links, it is normally a link to 1 general article. Grandmaster 17:07, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

This tragedy must be names as Genocide, why you only consider Armenian parts claims?this is unbiased approach Tegmen 29 (talk) 15:48, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

This was not a genocide by any means, and to claim so is disrespectful to victims of actual genocide. Dashoopa (talk) 04:08, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Actual genocide ? Please don't use your political language in here thats does not appopriate to wiki İsyankar18 (talk) 09:31, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

İsyankar18 This is not political language. Reliable sources do not consider it a genocide, so Wikipedia will not consider it a genocide. It's that simple. Dashoopa (talk) 20:20, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

İsyankar18, did you just deny that the Armenian Genocide is a genocide, and called it "political language" ? - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 11:08, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Please first read and answer after that this is not a discussion forum @Kevo327 İsyankar18 (talk) 11:21, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

İsyankar18 there is nothing for me to answer, and I'm the one who asked you. currently you're the one denying the Genocide, you should know tbat Wikipedia has a strict policy of WP:NONAZIS that disapproves extremism from Wikipedia editors, such as Genocide denial. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 11:31, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for linking antinazi assay i hope youre gonna read that also. denying genocoide is doing by @Dashoopa as you can see.

He/she is calling " This was not a genocoide by any means" isn't it a denying genocoide dear @Kevo327.

As you can see in here youre denying the genocoide and as you already know Wikipedia has a strict policy of WP:NONAZIS.

Have a good day. İsyankar18 (talk) 11:56, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

The truth neither be pacified, nor be disrupted. This is the massacre of the whole Azerbaijani Turks, most of them are a women, child or elder who's not able to protect theirselves from sudden threats. Face and agree with it. This is an undeniable massacre. (talk) 20:24, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Article issues

This is listed as a "B-class" article. The criteria includes that "Readers are not left wanting" and the article does not fully comply with #1 (quote not cited), #3, and #4. The "External links" section is bloated with 13 entries that does not comply with the guidelines to include WP:ELPOINTS as well as Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#LINK. -- Otr500 (talk) 14:57, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Unsourced content

The "Massacre" section includes unsourced "According to the Memorial". This content is controversial with one party reportedly making one claim and denied by another party. There is also: "...the armed people inside the refugee column did exchange gunfire with Armenian outposts, but on each occasion, the fire was opened first from the Armenian side." It seems strange that the refugees did not exchange gunfire yet the end of the sentence contains "on each occasion, the fire was opened first from the Armenian side." At any rate the content needs sourcing or removing. Considering this and the above issues the article is reassessed on the WikiProject Military history to "C-class". -- Otr500 (talk) 14:29, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Reverts

After checking the article's history, it looks like the current back-and-forth mess in the lead started with this edit by the now-blocked account. Please either discuss or desist. Since that original reverter has been blocked for battleground attitude, I'll revert otherwise. Brandmeister^talk 14:24, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

"Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment" and "Persecution of Azerbaijanis"

@Beshogur you restored Motive: Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment in the infobox (delated by myself as unsourced claim) and then added Persecution of Azerbaijanis category to the article. What WP:RS do support your claim? Are you saying it is a mainstream view that 1) it was specifically "Anti-Azerbaijani sentiment" that motivated Armenians and CIS forces to open fire and that 2) opening fire and the previous blockade by Armenians was organised, intentional "persecution of Azerbaijanis" rather than the sad realities of the bloody war? Best wishes, --Armatura (talk) 20:25, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Armatura: What's the motive then, could you tell? And didn't Azerbaijanis get persecuted? Beshogur (talk) 00:24, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

The onus is on you, Beshogur, to prove that it was specifically due to anti Azerbaijani sentiment and that it constituted persecution on ethnic grounds, per Wikipedia:VERIFY. Neither my nor your opinion counts, reliable sources should say what you put in Wikipedia, with a strong concensus for such incriminating claims. De Waal, for example, who is the most cited source in AA topic, says that the fire on civilians was not planned or deliberate. Same for other incidents in 1992 / First NK war - wars frequently involve civilian deaths (there is hardly a single large scale war without civilian deaths, sadly) , but you need hard evidence to say those deaths are due to ethnic hatred / intolerance or form of ethnic persecution --Armatura (talk) 07:59, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

I can not say anything about the motive right now, but you can not claim this was a sort of collateral damage. So the persecution category is fine. Beshogur (talk) 11:44, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

“fine” just because you say so or your hunch tells so? Nothing is fine, until you provide reliable sources for that, especially for such serious claims as ethnic hatred or persecution. It’s not your blog where you could write whatever you think is true. Material without adequate source should not be on Wikipedia. Add things when you have reliable sources, please, and don’t add things when you don’t have those reliable sources, as simple as that. And beware of asking others to disprove your theory where the onus is on you to support your hypothesis. I’m not claiming anything, you’re the one who claims this event occurred due to anti-ethnic sentiment or constitutes ethnic persecution --Armatura (talk) 12:34, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

This goes without saying, there's a misuse of the guidelines to act on denialist grounds. You don't massacre an ethnic group because you love them.