Talk:Abortion law

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Abortion Map

Can the maps for socio-economic categories and abortion on request be merged? They aren't that very different if you think about it. Abortion laws of India and UK happen to be quite a lot more liberal when it comes to access than many European countries such as Germany which requires mandatory counselling and a compulsory waiting period. That makes me think that the categorisation is unfair when it comes to access to abortion.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Addie293 (talk • contribs)

Unenforced law

Could this article mention about unenforced law or symbolic law anywhere?

Mexico

Although abortion in case of rape is legal nationwide, each state stipulated a different gestational limit. In July the Supreme Court declared unconstitutional to impose a limit.[1][2]

I can't think how to add this info. Maybe "no limit" + a note explaining the situation. I can help finding each state's gestational limit—in case there's one.

Gestational limits stipulated in case of rape according to the respective penal codes (determined from conception):

• Aguascalientes: "Cuando el embarazo haya sido causado por hecho punible tipificado como violación en cualquier etapa del procedimiento penal iniciado al efecto, a petición de la víctima, la autoridad judicial podrá autorizar la realización del aborto..."
• Baja California: 90 days
• Baja California Sur: not indicated
• Campeche: not indicated
• Chiapas: 90 days
• Chihuahua: 90 days
• Coahuila: 12 weeks
• Colima: 3 months
• Durango: not indicated
• Guanajuato: not indicated
• Guerrero: not indicated
• Hidalgo: 90 days
• Jalisco: not indicated
• Mexico City: not indicated
• Mexico State: not indicated
• Michoacán: 12 weeks
• Morelos: not indicated
• Nayarit: not indicated
• Nuevo Léon: not indicated
• Oaxaca: 3 months
• Puebla: not indicated
• Querétaro: not indicated
• Quintana Roo: 90 days
• Sinaloa: not indicated
• Sonora: not indicated
• Tabasco: not indicated
• Tamaulipas : not indicated
• Tlaxcala: not indicated
• Veracruz: 90 days
• Yucatán: not indicated
• Zacatecas: not indicated Treesmelon (talk) 16:03, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Should I add a note to each state? or is it too much? Treesmelon (talk) 16:03, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for researching all the limits. I think that the current note for Mexico as a whole is enough, but I'm not opposed to repeating it for each state. Heitordp (talk) 06:52, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

@Heitordp: Should we change "no limit" to the limits stipulated in each penal code and keep the note? 2803:9800:9096:7ECF:302D:FBE0:FB9C:3FC1 (talk) 13:42, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

It seems that in Mexico judicial decisions are not very automatic as they require an additional request to apply the precedent individually (amparo). So I think it's better to state the limits in each penal code and mention the judicial decision only in the note. Heitordp (talk) 16:20, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

@Heitordp: That's what I thought... I already made the changes. Could you please add that clarification in the note when you have time? Thanks. 2803:9800:9096:7ECF:A1FA:C12F:9070:34D3 (talk) 17:12, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Baja California has legalize abortion but the map have not been changed yet. The table bellow in the article has already been change, and has the source added. FedericoAsc (talk) 02:06, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

North Korea

Given the situation, I suggest to remove North Korea from the current timeline (or add a note), and to mark all grounds light green and repeat the current note in the table. Nothing is clear. The year 1950 refers to the Criminal Code "allowing" it, but it seems it has been amended because now there's no mention of it.

Update opinion: I do not know if we should make an exception with North Korea or treat it like any other jurisdiction. What am I sure is that it should be removed from the current timeline because of outdated information (i.e., amendment of Criminal Code). About the table: I think we should mark all grounds light red because there is no legislation about it, just sources' opinions–cf. what we do with Afghanistan, Palestine. For consistency, black in the map; maybe—as an exception—grey. Any thoughts?

The law doesn't need to mention abortion to allow it. If the criminal code doesn't mention it, it means that it's not a crime. However, it could be restricted by other laws or regulations. The most recent information available is the report by the North Korean government to CEDAW in 2016, cited in the note, where it stated that abortion was legal in cases of risk to the woman's life or health or fetal impairment. So at least these circumstances should be marked as permitted, and the others as prohibited or unknown. On the map, it should be yellow or gray, but not black. Heitordp (talk) 23:40, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Comparing to other countries, I decided I'm going to mark those grounds as permitted and the rest as prohibited. If no one objects, of course. Yellow in the map for consistency. Treesmelon (talk) 01:03, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Correction: It should be pink on the map, because the source doesn't mention in case of rape. Heitordp (talk) 18:44, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

When the abortion restrictions in NK was introduced? The Wolak (talk) 13:01, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

@The Wolak: Apparently in 2015.[3] In 2016 the government stated the circumstances when it was allowed.[4] Heitordp (talk) 21:55, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Globalize "National laws" section

This section has two subsections dedicated to continents Europe and North America—even countries Canada and the U.S.!— and ignores the rest of the world, despite having a very comprehensive table.

Canada

The map indicates that Canada has gestational limits in place that vary by province/territory. This is not true and numerous reliable sources indicate that Canada has no legislation governing abortion (for example: https://www.arcc-cdac.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/22-Late-term-Abortions.pdf). Canada has public free healthcare provided by the government, and I think the misconception might be because the different provincial/territorial healthcare systems may only usually provide (free) abortion on demand within the gestational limits which the map indicates, and since people in Canada cannot access many healthcare services by paying extra for private services therefore this is the only option available, but this is not because there is a law or piece of legislation that actually has placed a legal ban on the procedure after that point. As far as 'abortion law' is concerned, I think the whole of Canada should be covered as without gestational limits. Reesorville (talk) 15:45, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Gestational limits in Canadian provinces and territories are specified by their regulations on health professionals.[5][6][7] I find this similar to other countries that have removed abortion from criminal law but still restrict it under other laws or regulations. Heitordp (talk) 11:07, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I may be mistaken, but I am under the impression that what you are citing is the regulations made internally by the provincial/territorial medical associations themselves... or in other words, this is not regulation from the government, either federal or provincial. The medical associations can make rules for their own members in order to be licensed with them, but that is not the same as a 'law', since they would theoretically be capable of changing those gestational limits for abortions at their leisure without any laws in place from the government that prevent them from doing so. I am not sure how the map is being covered in other cases about this kind of point, but if the article is specifically referring to 'abortion law', then I think it shouldn't rely on that. If I could make a comparison: suppose there was some region where you only had one or a few clinics that did abortions, but they decided on their own professionally that they would only do it to 20 weeks, even if the law permitted them to do it 24 weeks, but those clinics were the only ones in the region that had the legal right to operate and do abortions... would it make sense to then mark the 'abortion law' in that place as limited to 20 weeks? I could be mistaken, but I think that is the sort of situation that exists in Canada, where there are no laws at any level restricting abortion access.Reesorville (talk) 12:18, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

The law of each province or territory prohibits the practice of medicine without a licence, and specifies only one association that can issue such licence and that can make regulations that its licensed members must follow. So although these regulations are not made directly by a legislative assembly, they are made by a single entity that has been delegated such power by law, so I think that we should still consider them as legal restrictions. Professionals that violate the regulations can lose their licence, and without a licence they can't legally practise the profession.

For example, the College of Physicians of Quebec says that abortions after 23 weeks are reserved to exceptional cases, and that it regularly verifies whether its members are following its abortion guidelines.[8] The College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta specifies a limit of 20 weeks for abortion not done in hospitals,[9] and Alberta Health Services, which is part of the provincial government and administers hospitals, limits abortion after 21 weeks to certain circumstances.[10] Heitordp (talk) 23:11, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I see your point and I agree that you could look at it that way. But there is one small issue I would point out: if a woman in Canada got an abortion in one of these provinces/territories using medication or using a coat hanger or some other tool/method, she wouldn't actually be breaking any laws or regulations by doing this, because those rules only apply to members of the medical association and not to the general public. I am not sure how that compares to other jurisdictions that have gestational limits on when abortions can legally occur? Reesorville (talk) 13:56, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

In some other jurisdictions, such as Ireland, New Zealand and some Australian states, the law says that the restrictions do not apply to a woman for aborting her own pregnancy. But this is an exceptional situation, so I think that it's more reasonable for the table and map to reflect the restrictions on medical professionals. Heitordp (talk) 02:16, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

"Judicial decisions" section

What is the criteria of using whether "Yes" or "Partially"?

Laos

What do you know about abortion in Laos. I heard two years ago, abortion had been almost totally banned in this country. I read a note about recommendation of health minister but I wonder when it was applied? In source is written that this decision was embraced after recomendations of WHO. But, I'm not concerned if abortion has been de facto or de iurre legalisted in this country because of,,lawful abortion" can not be defined in recommendation of the health ministry. Someone also metioned,that recommendations, haven't been broken into Laotion order's law yet. I thing liberalisation in this country is only formal and inconsequential change. The Wolak (talk) 17:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello, The Wolak, have you read the 2021 decision of the Ministry of Health? 2803:9800:9096:7ECF:ECF3:6FE0:67D3:C758 (talk) 21:28, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Test I have,however, i have domek doubts concerning if was IT about legalisation of abortion in many cases or IT was decriminalisation od IT? The Wolak (talk) 21:36, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Territories

If there is no information about the South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, I don't think that it should be listed in the table at all. In addition, this territory is not permanently inhabited and it has no medical facilities. All permanently inhabited territories are already listed or included in their parent country. Heitordp (talk) 21:55, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Baja California legal

Baja California has legalized abortion but the map has not been corrected yet. FedericoAsc (talk) 02:09, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

@FedericoAsc: The congress of Baja California has passed the law but it still needs to be published by the governor to come into force. I plan to update the map after the law is in force. Heitordp (talk) 04:50, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

a lot of people citing this source but i cannot access to it lol. anyone? 2803:9800:9096:7ECF:655C:F9BC:9C6E:EFA (talk) 02:27, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. The law was published by the governor on pages 20–27, so this source can be cited in the table. Now the law is in force so I updated the map. Heitordp (talk) 18:44, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Ireland

My entries were not publishing lol. The commencement date for Ireland is 1 January 2019, should we move it on the timeline? 2803:9800:9096:7ECF:843C:74F9:D38C:AEE9 (talk) 04:50, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, with a note similar to Argentina and Mozambique. Heitordp (talk) 05:14, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Nepal

The gestational limits listed in the current source for Nepal contradicts the National Code (p. 379), I think we should cite the latter? 2803:9800:9096:7ECF:618F:B8B0:B6AC:D0F2 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 06:27, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

The code that you cited is no longer in force today. It has been replaced [11].2A02:2F0F:B3FF:FFFF:0:0:6463:D8C3 (talk) 10:50, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Note: For those who are confused, the code cited above (the former code that was in force until 2018) used the Hindu calendar - it is cited as the Act No. 67 of 2019 (1963) (ie. year 2019 in Hindu calendar, and 1963 in Western calendar). 2A02:2F0F:B3FF:FFFF:0:0:6463:D8C3 (talk) 11:18, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

South Ossetia

Can someone please add South Ossetia to the map? I could not find better sources,[12][13][14] but at least 2 hint that South Ossetia has a separate legislation from Georgia.[15][16] I will keep searching. Thanks. 2803:9800:9096:7ECF:41ED:A7BF:E3C3:B8B1 (talk) 01:23, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Czechoslovakia

Czechoslovakia was dissolved in 1993. I am not sure if a single law was implemented in 1987 in the entire country, or two different laws were implemented in each territory, that's why I pluralized in the note on the timeline. However, here's some useful info., Slovakia's doc says the same and it can be found on the External links section. 2803:9800:9096:7ECF:41ED:A7BF:E3C3:B8B1 (talk) 01:37, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

China

Recently, I have read about changes in abortion law and it is good that China on the map has changed its color. However, can I change the color of China on the map to green? I would not mark China with yellow, but I read that the current Chinese law restricts abortion for non-medical reasons, so I think green would be appropriate color. Adijos08 (talk) 20:35, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

You can't change anything without sources. And don't confuse restrictions on abortion for non-medical reasons at later stages of pregnancy with restrictions of this kind at all stages (including early stages). 2A02:2F0F:B3FF:FFFF:0:0:6463:D8C3 (talk) 10:14, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

I understand what you mean. Here are some examples of sources I've read: https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/9/27/china-restricts-abortions-for-non-medical-purposes https://amp.ft.com/content/823378bf-af1f-41bd-b228-354b274d1542 As I wrote, marking China in yellow, even now after the changes in the abortion law, would be inappropriate. But green color is something to consider. Adijos08 (talk) 12:13, 2 December 2021 (UTC)