Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marina Ovsyannikova: Difference between revisions

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Marina Ovsyannikova

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Fails WP:BIO1E at this point. I salute her, but there is no indication that this minor event will have lasting implications. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:17, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:17, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:17, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment from the article creator. It is indeed difficult to see whether this is going to have lasting consequences, but I am sure today and tomorrow she will be on every single non-Russian media. Such things do not occur so often.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:19, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Given that we‘re dealing with real time events here and, in the event that this is confirmed to be true, exceptional bravery which will warrant a wikipedia entry, wouldn‘t it be worth to wait some time before deleting? 77.6.157.35 (talk) 20:24, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing will be deleted before a week has elapsed. Ymblanter (talk) 20:28, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I support that. Act like this make history. After some time has elapsed it might make sense to include this information into a bigger article on anti war protests in Russia. 51.154.165.136 (talk) 20:44, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is an act of heroism and is a significant step in the evolution of Putin's attack on Ukraine and the west. On a personal level she warrants a page dedicated to her and it should be retained as a repository of information concerning her fate. On a global level this page should be retained as not only recognition of heroes fighting disinformation but as evidence of trolling and further propaganda. One need look no farther than the replies to my comment to find evidence of this. 4piEpsilonNaught (talk) 21:18, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I highly doubt Ovsyannikova will be relevant to the English wikipedia in a week from now, although I applaud her efforts. Réunion (stylised) - (talk to me) 20:26, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Putin troll. It is very relevant and will be, it is an act of courage. 86.127.145.123 (talk) 20:27, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I find it very funny I was called a Putin troll. Be kind. Just because I support this article for deletion does not mean I support Russia. Réunion (stylised) - (talk to me) 20:32, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No personal attacks, especially nonsense like that. Base your comments on Wikipedia policy. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:29, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How dare you even type, that this act will be irrelevant to the English wikipedie in a week from now. This is an oustanding act, that will be remembered. Nothing like this happened before. She will get minimum of 15 years of prison and torture for this just for you to call it irrelevant and get it deleted from the wikipedia site. 85.160.33.51 (talk) 21:53, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

STRONG KEEP - it is astonishing that this is even being considered for deletion. I can only imagine a pro russian propoganda activist wants to pretend this selfless act of bravery and courage didnt occur. Question - what would wikipedia's feelings be today if Rosa Parks was deleted from history? 2A02:C7F:342B:2C00:1CE2:77CE:936E:F9B8 (talk) 22:04, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This should NOT be deleted. I do hope Wikipedia isn't listening to Putins censorship? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:985:E7FF:1:9860:6F2B:144:5D5A

Not listening to censhorship when we talk about it here. More akin to pro-Ukraine propaganda, regardless, no trolling please. Oaktree b (talk) 20:32, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Would be better-served as a subsection in Russian propaganda or an article about the war itself Oaktree b (talk) 20:30, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep. She will either be the first step of a complete turnaround in the Russian press, or she will go to jail for a long time. Either outcome is important for the history books. Mlewan (talk) 20:37, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should wait until something happens on that front before making this point. Deleting an article doesn't necessarily mean it has to never be remade. Réunion (stylised) - (talk to me) 20:40, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I think we should delete this article, but it's hardly certain she'll be either of those things. Also, going to prison for a long time is true for a lot of people we don't write about. And unfortunately, true for a number of people in Russia who oppose the regime. Julle (talk) 20:42, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If she has forfeited her life for doing this, then leave this as a eulogy to her very visible brave act? AnIguana (talk) 20:51, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@AnIguana: So one of the things that will happen here is that a lot of people who see the note on the article page will come to the discussion to argue on moral grounds, but that is not how Wikipedia works. Muboshgu, whom I don't necessarily agree with, didn't start this discussion because they want to disparage the courage or sacrifice involved, but because of their interpretation of Wikipedia policy. Wikipedia is like all other publications – there's an idea of what content is to be included or not. It's entirely possible to consider it out of scope here, and yet respect the act itself. A Wikipedia article isn't a measure of a good act. Julle (talk) 20:57, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

revolutions often happen in TV, for instance in 1989 the fact that communist controlled state TV flipped and started broadcasting facts about police violence towards students was an important factor, please do not delete 89.176.206.34 (talk) 20:41, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good point, however I would rather see this article as part of a bigger article on Russian revolts against this war, not necessarily keeping the article. I feel that having the article separate from others would not mean as much and is still a violation of WP:BIO1E - Réunion (stylised) - (talk to me) 20:49, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The ”event“, that WP:BIO1E refers to, in this case is not the big event of Russia's invasion of Ukraine 2022 (where this action may play a relatively small role, some might argue – though I'd disagree), but high profile public resistance in Russian media, which has not been a wide spread phenomenon yet at all: This lady thus plays a major role in some minor event. – Consequently, the lemma has to be kept until further developments. -- Xantares ⌘ 20:47, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I just came to wikipedia looking for info on this person. Anyway, she will likely go on trial, receive a brutal punishment and, much like PussyRiot, may well be a continuing cause celebre for her bravery. Not deleting seems prudent.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.201.109.54 (talk) 20:51, 14 March 2022 (UTC) [reply]
Keep. The event seems highly relevant in this context and is clearly the first of its kind on Russian state TV during the Ukrainian war. There already are some quite relevant sources like this one. I don't think WP:BIO1E applies here. --Coco (talk) 20:51, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep People need to know that everyone in Russia does not support the Ukranine invasion. 96.35.8.95 (talk) 20:58, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - very clearly both notable and set to remain so. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:57, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Delete then Redirect I agree with nominator Muboshgu's rationale for deleting this article. But, WP:BIO1E states that creating a redirect is more appropriate for a person who plays a minor role in a major event. Since Ovsyannikova plays a small role in the Ukraine crisis, her article can be merged with an appropriate article and then deleted. Just because sources like The Guardian cover what she did doesn't mean that she deserves her own article, but rather, if other people become famous for anti-war sentiment towards Russia, the sources used to create the article can be used in the said hypothetical article. LPS and MLP Fan (Littlest Pet Shop and My Little Pony Fan) 21:07, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ovsyannikova may play a ”small role“ in the Ukraine crisis, but that is not the event you should apply the terms of WP:BIO1E against; she presumably plays a big role in the public display of opposition to the Russian invasion. χenoΛntares ⌘ 21:31, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WhiteCherepan, Matrek, Milowent, 90.201.109.54, others: I know that the situation with Ukraine and Russia is very significant and causing reason for concern about Ovsyannikova. But, we should not let these events influence what to keep and delete on Wikipedia. For instance, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, and I have been seeing some keep arguments suggesting that the person will become famous for her act. But, we must not forget to adhere to policies and guidelines. LPS and MLP Fan (Littlest Pet Shop and My Little Pony Fan) 21:27, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

LPS and MLP Fan, personally I'm less swayed by this particular event than my view that English Wikipedia does a better job of doing fair articles on the fly during these events than anything else on the internet. There's no question we will cover this event as well at 2022 anti-war protests in Russia. But right now the world is searching her name, so I think the article can be kept and reassessed in a week or few weeks when things calm down. We don't have a specific rule or policy, but I've seen this be a de facto outcome many times in the last 15 years.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 21:39, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, at least for now: There's no way to stop the inevitable BLP1E AFD during these events under our rules and policies, I suppose. To the extent we are worried about exposing a living person to coverage, I hope this person lives to see wikipedia's coverage of her. Within a week we'll know a lot more about the case for notability.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 21:10, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep - this would not be notable in France, Canada or most other countries. However, it is notable given the current conditions in Russia. All dissidents are silenced, censored or 'rewarded' with prison terms. All independent media sources have been closed. Aside from some street protests, this is one of the very few visible protests in all of Russia, a country of more than 140 million people. It would not be notable in your country. But it is notable given the current realities of Russia. Context matters. A shop in an average shopping mall in an average country is not notable. But if a large country has one shop in the entire country, that shop becomes notable. MahaNakhon (talk) 21:12, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - notable tv anchor, her protest made her even more worthy to have her own page here. -Matrek (talk) 21:19, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Is she a tv anchor at all? This is not currently indicated by the article. Julle (talk) 21:43, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep, there will be books about her. --WhiteCherepan (talk) 21:20, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep! This is a very important event, right now she's the bravest person on the planet ! Such courage must be supported ! If Wiki does not realize the importance of this moment of truth, it thereby claims that free speech is not worth taking such a risk, that i'ts not even worth an entry. what would be next, deleting oberst stauffenberg ? 51.154.1.122 (talk) 21:59, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep -- Russia's highly-controlled media industry is a model for autocratic regimes everywhere. It not only finds top people, but rewards them well. All of this makes for high retention, or what they might call loyalty. For an insider to rise up like this is highly remarkable. It could one of the signposts to a collapse of the war effort, or even of Russia's current regime. At least it tells us that key insiders are turning against the institutions that advanced this war. Frazierdp (talk) 21:25, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Could merge somewhere. Surely enough actions within Russia against the war to have an article on that. Hyperbolick (talk) 21:29, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We have 2022 anti-war protests in Russia Ymblanter (talk) 21:35, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I agree that "Wikipedia is not news", but what we see is history in the making. Googling her name in Russian - Марина Овсянникова - gets lots of hits covering this incident, even the Russian state owned Tass has a short article [1].Knižnik (talk) 21:37, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep – seems significant to me. Superp (talk) 21:39, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Per WP:WHYN, We require "significant coverage" in reliable sources so that we can actually write a whole article, rather than half a paragraph or a definition of that topic. If only a few sentences could be written and supported by sources about the subject, that subject does not qualify for a separate page, but should instead be merged into an article about a larger topic or relevant list.. Also, there's an influx of WP:SLEEPER accounts and Wikipedia:Single-purpose accounts. Most keep rationale is centered on specificities of Russian media, and not the subject herself—further articulating why this should be redirected or merged with another article. --PerpetuityGrat (talk) 21:41, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah... really can't stress the influx of sleeper and single-purpose accounts enough. --PerpetuityGrat (talk) 21:47, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

strong keep! i disagree. she set an example for millions to follow. her name should not be hidden as a footnote in an artikel about russian media. she stands out ! btw.: most delete rationale wants to merge (i.e.: hide) or brings up technicalities. that's how a lawyer would argue to prevent something. yeah...i really can't stress enough the influx of people who want to prevent the truth from beeing spread ! i wonder who they might be working for... 51.154.1.122 (talk) 22:19, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.euronews.com/2022/03/14/ukraine-war-russian-anti-war-protester-interrupts-state-tv-news-broadcast Callmesolis (talk) 21:47, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

– I get 27000 hits when I search for her in Russian (with quotation marks, so only her). More references than many other journalists who are featured on Wikipedia. Also more than enough material for a whole article. MahaNakhon (talk) 22:01, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep There are 680 pages in the category for BBC Journalist and Newsreaders. She's an equivalent to many of them in terms of Russian TV and so notable for more than one event. 2A00:23C8:4F05:9001:8023:A242:95FE:C539 (talk) 21:48, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This is a significant break from Russia state media narrative, and her story needs to be recognized. Vrrtigo (talk) 21:51, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or give a chapter in a relevant article - it's very difficult to get the message across to Russians relying on their national TV only. They've been lied to for years and are predetermined to view current reality basically upside down. What this lady has done is nothing but heroism, and may well serve as a trigger in changing this current tragic status quo between Russian and Ukrainian societies. Peace everyone. 86.38.230.141 (talk) 21:55, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
if adds any weight to the argument, I'm a former admin on a foreign wiki, but it's been a while so forgot login info. I've spent these several weeks trying to talk to Russians on social media, those who either don't know or deny Russia's invasion to Ukraine, I don't know how successfully since now they legally are prevented from voicing any opinion departing from Russian institutional stance. But generally it's like trying to talk with hundreds of hungry wolves. So in the context of this, it takes such a courage and will to do as this woman did, it's even difficult to find words to describe it. I believe her story will be significant. 86.38.230.141 (talk) 22:18, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep for now / Wait. Let this article and topic few days to solidify. Yug (talk) 🐲 21:56, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep for now. Let's see where this is going. No opposition to community reassessment at a later date, once the dust has settled. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:06, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Why would we delete a part of history? --Trougnouf (talk) 22:11, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep for the moment, because we are not in the business of crystal-ball-gazing. I cannot recall an event like this ever happening before, so we are not in a position to predict whether her act will have lasting consequences that go down in history, or what her future will hold as a highly-visible opponent of war. If, in months or years to come, it becomes clear that she or her act are better recorded in another article, part of a bigger picture, we can do so. For the moment, it seems a pretty big act, a unique situation, likely to attract a lot of attention, so let's wait and see. Elemimele (talk) 22:12, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Merge into the Protests against the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine: while as of right now, I do not think that her article is relevant on its own, and it does violate WP:BIO1E, I do feel that her actions warrant at least a mention in the Protests against the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine article. If she did something else notable before or if she does something notable after this, then I would support creating an article just for her. 2604:3D09:E284:C800:3D7B:4698:306C:E94D (talk) 22:16, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Keep her actions have already turned her into a well-known figure. The incident of her protest will be an important part of the history of the conflict. It already is! If the coming weeks do not bring any additional information, It would probably be best to merge it into a large article. Hawks $.mw-parser-output .sfrac{white-space:nowrap}.mw-parser-output .sfrac.tion,.mw-parser-output .sfrac .tion{display:inline-block;vertical-align:-0.5em;font-size:85%;text-align:center}.mw-parser-output .sfrac .num{display:block;line-height:1em;margin:0.0em 0.1em;border-bottom:1px solid}.mw-parser-output .sfrac .den{display:block;line-height:1em;margin:0.1em 0.1em}.mw-parser-output .sr-only{border:0;clip:rect(0,0,0,0);clip-path:polygon(0px 0px,0px 0px,0px 0px);height:1px;margin:-1px;overflow:hidden;padding:0;position:absolute;width:1px}Talk/Edits$ 22:20, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 69: / Line 69: @@
 * '''Keep''' for the moment, because we are not in the business of crystal-ball-gazing. I cannot recall an event like this ever happening before, so we are not in a position to predict whether her act will have lasting consequences that go down in history, or what her future will hold as a highly-visible opponent of war. If, in months or years to come, it becomes clear that she or her act are better recorded in another article, part of a bigger picture, we can do so. For the moment, it seems a pretty big act, a unique situation, likely to attract a lot of attention, so let's wait and see. [[User:Elemimele|Elemimele]] ([[User talk:Elemimele|talk]]) 22:12, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
 *'''Merge''' into the [[Protests against the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine]]: while as of right now, I do not think that her article is relevant on its own, and it does violate [[WP:BIO1E]], I do feel that her actions warrant at least a mention in the [[Protests against the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine]] article. If she did something else notable before or if she does something notable after this, then I would support creating an article just for her. [[Special:Contributions/2604:3D09:E284:C800:3D7B:4698:306C:E94D|2604:3D09:E284:C800:3D7B:4698:306C:E94D]] ([[User talk:2604:3D09:E284:C800:3D7B:4698:306C:E94D|talk]]) 22:16, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
+*'''Keep''' her actions have already turned her into a well-known figure. The incident of her protest will be an important part of the history of the conflict. It already is! If the coming weeks do not bring any additional information, It would probably be best to merge it into a large article. [[User:Hawkseraph|'''Hawks''']] <span class="texhtml {{#if:|texhtml-big}}" {{#if:|style="font-size:165%;"}}>{{Sfrac|[[User_Talk:Hawkseraph|Talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Hawkseraph|Edits]]}}</span><!--
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