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<ref>{{cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=O_MnAAAAYAAJ|title=Comparative Religion|last1=Kattackal|first1=Jacob|publisher=Oriental Institute of Religious Studies|year=1990|location=Kerala|page=144|language=en}}</ref><ref>{{cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=0oscAAAAMAAJ|title=The History of the London Missionary Society in Travancore, 1806-1908|author=Yesudas|first=R.N.|publisher=Kerala Historical Society|year=1980|location=Kerala|page=19}}</ref>
<ref>{{cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=O_MnAAAAYAAJ|title=Comparative Religion|last1=Kattackal|first1=Jacob|publisher=Oriental Institute of Religious Studies|year=1990|location=Kerala|page=144|language=en}}</ref><ref>{{cite book|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=0oscAAAAMAAJ|title=The History of the London Missionary Society in Travancore, 1806-1908|author=Yesudas|first=R.N.|publisher=Kerala Historical Society|year=1980|location=Kerala|page=19}}</ref>
{{ref-talk}}
{{ref-talk}}
:clearly sourced sections are being removed as noted above.[[Special:Contributions/183.82.108.172|183.82.108.172]] ([[User talk:183.82.108.172|talk]]) 07:36, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Revision as of 07:36, 5 April 2022

Nangeli, an Ezhava women

Hi all,

This is hemalataeditor. I have checked the recent edits and the reverts too. Especially the one made by Cpt.a.haddock around Nangeli's identification as an Ezhava woman. Regardless of the exact time of the incident, it is a proven fact that she was an Ezhava woman which has been documented by many writers who visited her village and collected her stories. One such narration comes from the narration of a BBC reporter Divya Arya who visited Kerala to get the facts.[1]

So, Cpt.a.haddock it would be really great if you can do some more readings about Nangeli and if there is any doubt about her being an Ezhava woman, provide references to it. Until you establish her non-Ezhava status, probably we should go with the popular belief and address her as an Ezhava woman.

Thanks!Hemalataeditor (talk) 04:04, 10 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "The woman who cut off her breasts to protest a tax". BBC News. BBC. Retrieved 10 June 2017.
@Hemalataeditor: Hi, I'm not sure which of my edits you're talking about as her supposed caste is mentioned in the lead as well as the body. However, the whole story of Nangeli currently has no historical basis. Quoting from your cited article, It is a village tale that is not officially recognised in any of India's historical accounts. There are no "proven facts" here and the lead prominently notes this "fact". Furthermore, newspaper reports are not generally considered to be reliable sources for historical articles. Please see WP:HISTRS. If you'd like to really improve this article, please find scholarly sources that deal with Nangeli.--Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 07:21, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
All the other references clearly state the incident occurred and have added references which clearly state this and can bring more references if required .Only the BBC article only states it not recognised in any of India's historical accounts but they do not say it did not occur.Even the BBC article states that Maniyan Velu, her cousin's great-grand-son, says he feels upset that Nangeli's story is not more widely known.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 08:16, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Both the references you have added to the article are unreliable. "Dance of the Spirits" is a novel. "The Idiolects" (2016) is a very dubious source that happily plagiarises Wikipedia in the very section dealing with Nangeli. The section is written by Dr. Shakuntala AI, an associate professor of English at MPMMSN Trust College in Shoranur. A couple of pages above the Nangeli episode, the paragraph beginning, The Ezhavas or Izhavas are the largest ethnic groups ... is simply copy-pasted from elsewhere. The source is probably a page such as this one from 2009 which credits Wikipedia at the bottom.
Please familiarise yourself with WP:HISTRS on what qualifies as reliable for history articles. Thanks.—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 09:23, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You beat me to it, Cpt. - Sitush (talk) 09:25, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
:) The first paper in "The Idiolects" is titled "Post-Colonialism is an outburst of suppressed desires in the quest of an identity" and lists "Sources from the Internet" in its references section. I'm afraid that this kind of dross is going to become increasingly common …—Cpt.a.haddock (talk) (please ping when replying) 10:11, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Truth or fiction

We have a source saying that historians believe the Nangeli tale to be apocryphal. An anonymous contributor has been changing that to say it is believed by the government of Kerala. The problem is two-fold: (a) they have provided no source for that; and (b) in accordance with WP:NPOV, even if the government do believe it, we are obliged to show all significant opinions. I realise that this is dealt with in the section immediately above but the issue is still not resolved because those who say it is true are not providing anyything valid to support their claim. - Sitush (talk) 15:01, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yes, that verifies someone's claim to be a relative of the person. It doesn't verify that the story is anything other than apocryphal, and a relative is not exactly independent - Sitush (talk) 13:52, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Vencha desca? ∯WBGconverse 13:36, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You've lost me, WBG. What do you mean? - Sitush (talk) 13:46, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Neither have I any clue as to how a paragraph about whether the subject is real or a folk-legend; got transformed into that:-( Weird day; a few edits back Twinkle did not create any AfD page but templated the article and inserted a red-link to the AfD-logs !
Will be re-posting the write-up:-) ∯WBGconverse 16:08, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sitush, just noting that the BBC source describes her to be from early 1900s and says Nangeli is believed to have lived over 100 years ago. Over some function that was organised to commemorate her (and covered by TOI), one program organizer says:-We name so many roads and chowks after political leaders but why not after this brave woman who had fought against a brutal system over 100 years ago.
In contrast, the Hindu source puts the time-span to around 1813 vide Nangeli, who lived in Cherthala in Alappuzha over 200 years ago. It quotes an MLA (by profession, an advocate) as researching and saying:-The incident happened in 1803. It created a lot of anger and the practice of collecting breast tax was put to an end here by 1812.
That's a time difference of about 100 years.
Obviously, the MLA is not remotely RS (by any standards) but I personally think ~1800 to be far more logical because that was the time when the breast tax was imposed on the subjects et al.
I will add the other points in due time but I have good reasons to believe that this is a folk-legend with hardly any semblance to reality. ∯WBGconverse 16:13, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This also serves as an example as to why non-academic sources are pathetic; when documenting historical figures. ∯WBGconverse 16:16, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, the vast difference in dates isn't good. - Sitush (talk) 16:22, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Charles Allen writes over Coromandel: A Personal History of South India:-

However, the bulk of the Thiyyas and Ezhavas refused to follow suit and suffered accordingly. One of their number was that mulachi or ‘breasted woman’ from Cherthala, the Ezhava by the name of Nangeli, wife of Chirukandan, who in response to the parvathiyar, or tax-collector, calling at her door presented him with her severed breasts on a banana leaf. The story of Nangeli and her tragic self-mutilation is now widely represented as the signal act of defiance that led to the abolition of the iniquitous mulakkaram tax. But that is history as we would like it to be rather than what actually transpired.

∯WBGconverse 16:47, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Allen's short bio:--

With more than 23 books to his name, Charles is today an acknowledged authority on British Indian and South Asian history, and in 2004 was awarded the Sir Percy Sykes Gold Medal by the Royal Society for Asian Affairs for his contribution to Asian studies. He is an active Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society and the Royal Asiatic Society, a Council Member of the Kipling Society and a Member of the Royal Society for Asian Affairs and the Frontline Club.

∯WBGconverse 16:57, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Paging you:-) ∯WBGconverse 17:01, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I know of Allen. Does he actually give his opinion of what did transpire? I've always thought the Nangeli thing to be at least in large part fantasy, the article says that and I'm betting Allen says the same. - Sitush (talk) 17:05, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fiction

https://www.opindia.com/2018/01/the-recurring-myth-of-breast-tax-doesnt-seem-to-die-down-this-time-propagated-by-scroll/ https://www.hindupost.in/breast-tax-a-false-story-to-attack-hindus/ This article explores the Nangeli breast tax myth. There are zero contemporary historical references to this incident. Please call it out as myth. Further edits should explore how this myth came into place, its original references & motivations. — Preceding Saiswa (talk comment added by Saiswa (talk • contribs) 21:48, 29 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Saiswa,  Done w/o using OpIndia sources, obviously. ∯WBGconverse 16:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fiction not backed by any authentic documents

Dear All,

I have gone through many articles in internet, most of them are taking references from wiki and which is based on reports and fiction. In the references section I couldn't find any authentic articles or history archives which supports this claim. As you people are aware this Nangeli issue has become a political propaganda in our state Kerala. If you look at recent edits, it looks like a fight. Yong people are counting on you guys to get information and fact checks, you guys can't simply call someone Ezhava based on a news report. You, me anyone can submit a story to BBC and if they like it they will publish. I believe this story of Nangeli is derived from kannaki and it was just a story to inspire people in lower section to fight for thier rights. — Preceding unsigned comment added by OneDev (talk • contribs) 06:22, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Background section removal

A large of removal of sourced text from the background section including references clearly not explained in talk but self reverted for now. Can it please be explained in the talk page why large text was removed. There has no discussion in this Talk page or in WP:RSN if sources are to be discussed .If sources were needed they could be tagged. Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 18:59, 31 October 2021 (UTC).[reply]

[1][2][3] [4][5] [6][7]

References

  1. ^ Cohn, Bernard S. (1996-09-08). Colonialism and Its Forms of Knowledge: The British in India. Princeton University Press. p. 140. ISBN 9780691000435.
  2. ^ Hardgrave, Robert L. (1969). The Nadars of Tamilnad. University of California Press. pp. 55-70.
  3. ^ Smith, Bardwell L. (1976). Religion and Social Conflict in South Asia. BRILL. p. 32. ISBN 9789004045101.
  4. ^ Allen, Charles (7 August 2018). "WHO OWNS INDIA'S HISTORY? A CRITIQUE OF SHASHI THAROOR'S". Asian Affairs. 49 (3): 355–369. doi:10.1080/03068374.2018.1487685. By the start of the 19th century the ordinary people of Travancore were being required to pay as many as 100 petty taxes, ranging from head tax, hut tax, marriage tax and taxes on the tools of one's trade to taxes on the family cow, goat or dog, wearing jewellery, staging festivals, growing moustaches, and above all what became known as the breast tax, mulakkaram, by which the women of lower social groups had to expose their breasts or pay a tax. The Brahmins, naturally, paid no tax at all.
  5. ^ Nair, Adoor K. K. Ramachandran (1986). Slavery in Kerala. Mittal Publications. p. 45. The Pooja Raja in Travancore made the Malarayans pay money at the rate of one anna, two pies (8 pies) a head monthly as soon as they were able to work, and a similar sum of presence money besides certain quotas of fruits and vegetables and feudal service....The head money was called Thalakaram in the case of males and Mulakaram (breast money) in the case of females.
  6. ^ Kattackal, Jacob (1990). Comparative Religion. Kerala: Oriental Institute of Religious Studies. p. 144.
  7. ^ Yesudas, R.N. (1980). The History of the London Missionary Society in Travancore, 1806-1908. Kerala: Kerala Historical Society. p. 19.
clearly sourced sections are being removed as noted above.183.82.108.172 (talk) 07:36, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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