Talk:Survivor: Africa

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External links modified (January 2018)

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Survivor jury vote table discussion

There is a proposal at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Survivor task force#Jury vote tables to list the vote totals in the same order as the names in the finalist row immediately above the vote totals. All interested editors are invited to join that discussion. Since the Survivor task force appears to be inactive, I'm notifying Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Reality television task force and the talk pages for each Survivor season in order to reach interested editors. Schazjmd (talk) 16:37, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Contestant result confusion

Can we please not remove the original tribes and colors associated with them ? Almost every other season of survivor has made it clear which tribe each contestant was on throughout the various tribe swaps. These changes do nothing but confuse the reader. I’ve seen many complaints about the new changes in the fan base, and if someone were to go back on these confusing and pointless changes, I will personally begin to donate to Wikipedia for making the right changes to the topics I care about. 76.190.196.224 (talk) 07:25, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

We are on Wikipedia, not a fan website. Everything that has been changed is to adhere to our Manual of Style, mostly MOS:ACCESS and WP:COLOUR. Donating to Wikipedia makes no difference to the content on it. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:45, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Also, I will eventually change this to be uniform across all of these articles, but consistency is not a good reason for things to not adhere to MOS. See our policy on WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:48, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I understand why losing some of that color can be disconcerting since it's been there so long. However, as an editor in a topic area that is similarly impacted by inaccessible pages, this is important. What may be lost for sighted people (and it might be nice to have a color accent somehow) is more than made up for by the addition of features that make these tables more readable for the color-blind and those who use screen readers to interact with the web. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 20:57, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

New table layout

Does anyone else agree that the new table layout for contestants, season summary, and voting history are very unpleasing to the eye? The way that they were previously looked way better. Thoughts? NintendoGeek (talk) 23:39, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

The changes look terrible and I dread the possibility of this spreading to the rest of the seasons, making them significantly more difficult to easily and quickly read. AddMLR (talk) 04:19, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

The old format violated WP:ACCESS. --Masem (t) 04:36, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

@Masem: How does using color with other attributes violate WP:Access? The design works as it is. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:38, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

The previous version didn't have row or column scopes, so that is an instant MOS failure. We need to minimize use of colour. Per Talk:Survivor: Cook Islands/GA1, the current version isn't even stringent enough. What is more, the colour of the tribe is irrelevant. The information is plenty with saying who was voting, and which person was voted off. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:01, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

That can be remedied, but the color of the tribe is far from irrelevant. It's one of the more helpful items in quickly discerning who has been voted off. Color is important in Survivor... it's not some arbitrary use of color. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:47, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

How so? How does a reader even know that there is any meaning for the colouring? It's not what is important for Survivor, it's important for Wikipedia. If you can come up with an alternative table that follows the MOS, then that would be fine. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:40, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

We are not supposed to represent important information by color, that is a core facet of ACCESS. And the fact that people wanted to use the exact tribe colors, which nearly always were not accessible colors, and use those over and over and over again, made that even more difficult. Using the tribe color once in appropriate locations in a table and then repeating the tribe name in normal non-colored text is far more appropriate even if it made it a tad less easy to see the results at a glance. --Masem (t) 12:14, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

They look hideous now 2601:196:0:750:450D:26A6:5C9A:D5CC (talk) 01:05, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

They were unreadable before. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 06:53, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

They were not unreadable at all. Could the colors have been better... sure... but they are important that the tribes are starkly different. Do you even watch the show? Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:49, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Hopefully this will be applied in all seasons to make the table layout clean. ApprenticeWiki ^work 07:27, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

It will, but there is WP:NODEADLINE. Feel free to make the changes yourself. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:36, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

At the very least we can put a border color around each cell to designate the tribe color. There is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:52, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Which cells exactly? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:40, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

On things like the first table List of Survivor 42 contestants. Mine was just a crude example, but those colors help us a great deal and there must be some middle ground on this. It would be better if the cells remain fully colored in. Wikipedia has plenty of example of colored cells including MOS and essays. If the choice of green is too dark or vivid it can easily be softened to more of a standard html5 color. I can't tell you how many folks I talk to that watch the show simply say the "green tribe", or the "yellow tribe", rather than the tribe name. It's ingrained in the show and is quite important. Does it need to be the exact color green from the show?... not if we can help our sight-challenged readers see the text a bit better. Screen readers should have no trouble. But we also don't want our majority of sighted readers to be inconvenienced either, and from dark-bold colors to white or grey is a bookend of extremes we can avoid. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:40, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

- apologies, I thought we were still discussing the voting history table. I don't know, I think I even prefer the background to the weird outlines. The thing is, a lot of these articles have severe duplication of information. Prior to changes, the contestant section would state which tribe they were on, and then that would also be stated again in the season summary, and then again in two places on the voting history.

It's a mess. here is a diff from before changes were made to the tables. The contestants table uses small html lettering, which isn't something we should ever use, thus meaning suitability for creating columns for age and location. Having a series of yellows, red and greens, especially without any explanation isn't helpful. You might say that fans of the show might only remember the colours used with the individual tribes, but I counter that someone reading the article who doesn't have that information will be completely lost. The voting history is the same on the old version, it is using that colour to mean that a that person was a part of that tribe, but doesn't explain that at any time, and is using that colour as the only way to distinguish information... Which is against our MOS. I can't say that there being colours in the contestant summary would be all that big of a deal - but also, when we literally have a table for who won each challenge, and every tribal council do we even list this information again in the contestants section?

I just want the articles to meet the MOS so that they can be viewable by all, and get the items up to a higher rating. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:34, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Quite often info is repeated if it's in a separate table. Just like linking. MOS tells us not to overlink once a person is already linked in prose, but often the first time someone's name is mentioned in a new table, their name is linked, and every subsequent table is the also linked the first time. When we start to get distance from the first time someone's tribe is mentioned it's not a bad thing to do so again. MOS also gives us the ability balance things with common sense. What MOS does not allow us to do would be use color alone to distinguish data. But we have a tribe name smack dab in the middle of that color to distinguish what it's for. That should be good enough for MOS. If you want more then add a small key table above the chart with color and tribe name. I agree that color in the cell is better. What I was worried about was contrast of the cell color with the text so visually impaired readers could best make out the text while still conveying tribe color to sighted readers. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:36, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

As for your example on the Africa "List of Survivor: Africa contestants", beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I understand Wikipedia MOS wanting separate columns (especially for sorting), and I understand them trying to avoid the small text unless necessary. That said, if I presented the new chart at work in replacing the old chart, I would be fired! The old chart conveys the info best. Having the name age and location in the same box is tighter and lets readers assimilate the info in one glance. The color for the tribes is missing... that alone would have a magazine throw out my submission. And turning "Finish" cell into two cells with extra subheadings is overkill. It also make the entire table wider which is tougher on cell phones. In the real world, the new chart is busier and much harder to navigate for most readers. Again, Wiki has it's rules we follow but sometimes it's a bitter pill when it's our readers who suffer the consequences. My choice when asked is to give the best experience to our readers, not wikipedia management. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:52, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

We aren't a magazine. We follow our style guidelines. There's a reason why we don't usually keep lots of different pieces of information in the same cell, that's due to sorting. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:37, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

I understand that, and I said sorting comes into play because of wikipedia rules. We are not a magazine. If we were we would take things into consideration like aesthetics, ease of use, and our readers. Sorting age and birth year is extremely trivial. Splitting the last column into two columns is better for wiki, not for readers. I didn't revert those things because of wikipedia rules. But the table is worse for it. The cell tribe color is different though... it is useful and important. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:37, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

That's fair. I don't particularly like the amount of colour, but so long as the article (and these articles in general) meet the MOS, that is all I care about. I am steadily working my way through them with a plan to GA, so that is the solution. The voting history table is very much where the MOS was particularly effected. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:40, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

So, are you saying that coloring the tribe cells on the contestant table is okay? I redid a number of the Survivor tables based on the Cook Islands table, and don't want to continue if they're just going to be reverted. Please advise. Bgsu98 (talk) 15:11, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with colored cells at all. However the shade of color should match html5 standards. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:41, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes there is, they do not provide any new information already given by the tribe name. The excessive use of color is something that is reflective of fan-driven tracking of players, and that's beyond our purpose here; we need to keep these "bland" to meet MOS standards. --Masem (t) 01:49, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

No there isn't and yes they do. It is not excessive in the least because the show constantly throws the colors in our faces. It is very important to keep, and we do not in the least need to "keep these "bland" to meet MOS standards"... that is far from true. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:30, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm really unsure how colours being used in the show (which I don't even think is true) has any baring on how we layout the tables on Wikipedia. I feel like the arguments are to appease fans of the show, which isn't what we are here for. It feels very WP:CRUFTy to note that someone was in the red team over and over again in an article. We also mention in prose what colours the teams are - so all I can suggest is that these tables are being used for quick reference for fans of the show. We don t (or at least shouldn't) have items designed for fans, but optimized for the general reader. It's the same reason why we don't have trivia sections. The article is perfectly readable without the colours, and pointing to the season summary section isn't great, as that table probably needs a cull of fancruft too. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:49, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

This right here. Compare these tables to major sporting events where colors also are key and they use colors too but far more limiting (eg see Super Bowl LVI where team colors are used for table headers but thats its). Naming the tribes is sufficient. --Masem (t) 12:57, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Please advise as to whether or not the colors should remain on the contestants table. Bgsu98 (talk) 02:01, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

I actually like the new layouts, although I could see adding a softer version of whatever color to the contestants’ table since the tribe name is also given. I like having the age and hometown separated, as well as the day of elimination. The only adjustment I did was to combine the elimination order and jury member data into one cell, since they are elements of the same component, and having a separate column for jury members left the table with a lot of dead space on the far right column on both the top and bottom, and looked awkward. As far as readability, it’s the voting table at the bottom that’s incredibly wide, but there’s very little we can do to remedy that. Bgsu98 (talk) 21:56, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

The contestant layout is dreadful. Colours are a huge part of Survivor (tribe designation being pivotal) and unnecessarily creating rowspan for tribe swaps is an incredible amount of overkill and overcomplication. But the episode guide and voting chart USE the colours? There's no uniformity and creates a mish mash of information that can be explained clearer using colour identifiers. 82.24.78.193 (talk) 14:36, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

The big issue with the old version of the contestants table is having three pieces of information in one cell, small tags and no rowscopes. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:11, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

You don’t see the overcomplication the new tables create? Rowspans for tribe membership unless it’s a merged tribe is just creating more work for the editor. Wikipedia should be an easily disgusted article for the subject matter. This and other changes do not accomplish that. The old system worked, it’s not in line with Skill based shows as it factors in social politics, advantages, physicality and luck. 82.24.78.193 (talk) 21:45, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

No, Wikipedia articles should follow the MOS as for any other article. The old system didn't meet the MOS guidelines. It makes no difference what the season is about. If you want to have different tables that don't meet the MOS, do it on a fan website. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:58, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Sorry but your ideas for the new table formats are not very good. In fact, they make it more difficult to understand than before as others above have also mentioned. It actually seems more people are against this new table layout. So maybe we should go back to the drawing board before making such drastic and unpopular changes. I understand the colors need to be changed but the new table format just isn't going to work. Miss HollyJ (talk) 22:18, 30 April 2022 (UTC)