Talk:Indian summer

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Discussion

The Old Farmer's Almanac claims that a true Indian Summer Day can only occur between November 11th and the 20th, citing a proverb: "'If All-Saints brings out winter, St Martin's brings out Indian summer.' Accordingly, Indian summer can occur between St Martin's Day, November 11th and November 20th." But All-Saints Day is November 1st. What gives? - Brigham

This article seems to suggest that the term only applies in North America - it ain't so, the term is used in the UK and for all I know other parts of Europe too. This might help shed some light on its etymology, it may in fact long predate US colonisation (???). Quite often in England there is a late warm period, usually in late September or early October (which at such latitude is normally heading well into autumn), and this is commonly referred to as an Indian summer. GRAHAMUK 10:18, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)

In Germany the term is also wellknown as a fact of tourism to Canada and Vermont, but it is different to the german expression "Altweibersommer". --Herrick 10:30, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

I always assumed the name used the negative definition of "Indian", as in Indian giver--i.e., "false summer." Is that not one of the possible etymologies? Funnyhat 07:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In July–October 2004, the article did indeed mention this possibility. User:TheGrza removed that speculation, though, saying it doesn't make sense, because "summer is being given AGAIN". But to me, it seems the summer that is being given is so short-lived, it is as if it is a gift that is taken away right away, hence it's just like "Indian giver"; the use of "Indian" carries the same general connotation of deceitfulness. It also seems unlikely that the qualifier "Indian" would've been used benignly by European settlers in the 1780s. — mjb 06:34, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that an etymological speculation should not be removed just because it doesn't make sense, unless there was no evidence for it at all. In any case, it is clear that the phrase has a long history in Europe and, to me, this invalidates the US etymology since a US phrase is unlikely to be so prevalent in Europe (things such as this didn't spread so easily in those days). Of course, it is possible that the same phrase could develop in two places independently, and so would have two different etymologies. Davidmaxwaterman (talk) 01:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure that this phrase, and Indian giver, are related to the phenomenon that gives rise to English phrases like "French" leave and "Dutch" courage or "Dutch" treat. Using a local "foreign" culture to imply that something isn't actually what it is called; i.e. an Indian giver is actually a lender and Indian summer is actually fall. I'm pretty sure this was discussed by Safire or Newman in one of their books. It makes as much sense as any other etymology. Halfelven 11:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I had no idea that this phrase originated in America. It's been in use in Britain all my life (I'm 55) and I always assumed it was a reference to India the country rather than native Americans. Britain has had links with India for over 300 years and many families would have had a relative living there at one time, either in the bureaucracy or the army. This misunderstanding may be responsible for the term's rapid adoption in Britain, implicitly suggesting that an unusually warm and sunny autumn period is like summer in India. I can't find any supportive evidence though, so won't modify the article. --Ef80 (talk) 15:04, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I remember a BBC production of the "Forsyte Saga" that included at the end "Indian Summer of a Forsyte" as an episode. It had no reference to America at all. I live in Georgia, USA, and here the phrase means a period in autumn (NOT the dog days of summer) in which there are very cool mornings and hot afternoons. Derrick Chapman 23:28, 11 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Derrickchapman (talk • contribs)

another definition

I added another definition for indian summer. Where I'm from (southern United States) it is often used to describe dog days or the hottest days of the year. I also added a link to the dog days article as I think that term is much more common. I'm trying to find a citation for this but it's hard to find a reputable one for what is essentially regional colloquial slang :) Donald Antonini 14:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm from the south too and I've never heard actual summer referred to as Indian summer. I'm from Arkansas and Indian summer is consistently used there in my experience to mean the last warm days of autumn. Perhaps in some narrower region than "The south" it is used to mean August dog days but I've never once heard it used that way. In California, it can be used for unseasonably warm days in the winter as well as the fall. Especially if it hits 90 after Christmas. Halfelven 11:33, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The article claims that Old Wives' Summer is the term used in the UK. I am far from being in the first flush of youth and never in my lifetime have I heard this term used. It has always been called Indian Summer. If the Old Wives' Summer did originate in Britain, I would suggest that it is either a long since obsolete expression or is limited to a very small geographic area.Megra 14:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Megra. I have never heard this in England, and have lived both North and South. It seems to be a direct translation of the German term Altweibersommer. "Indian Summer" is the familiar term, and is used from late September onwards. I think the older English equivalent would be "Saint Martin's Summer", from Saint Martin's Day on November 11th. Robina Fox 13:14, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

In England there used to be a "little summer of St Luke", whose feast day is 18 October. Poshseagull (talk) 17:34, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Just thought I would add ( yet another ) take on this term. Where I grew up in Michigan, we often used this term to describe a particular, unexpected, surreal, and sudden warming of the weather. [ Similar in idea to the "unexpected blooming" definition. ] However, in our sense, the comment was not merely an idle one, but rather to put others on notice, since this kind of weather might produce a tornado. 71.126.10.33 (talk) 03:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I also grew up in the South, and there Indian Summer meant warm weather in the Fall, AFTER a cold snap. In fact the Wiki page says the same thing - warmth after a frost. So the Wiki page comment a few lines down about Indian Summer in San Fran makes no sense - it never frosts there, or at least not in the Fall, which is usually the hottest part of the year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.193.93 (talk) 04:53, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

February

We've used that term to refer to the warm spell in February. 67.188.172.165

>Could you give a location for that usage? Robina Fox 13:19, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The other half of the year

What names are there for periods of warm sunny weather in the spring? They certainly seem to be common here in Britain. -- Smjg 17:51, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't remember which, but, there was a Stephen King novel which called it a "strawberry spring". --198.49.180.40 (talk) 21:40, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

I grew up in New England, like Stephen King, and we called it a false spring. Another Editor (talk) 04:27, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Could do with a rewrite

"Indian summer also has been referenced as the first 3-day warm period following falls first hard freeze(referenced as "squaw's winter"). Not a part of native folklore. Used by early settlers.

As a senior Canadian we were also told that this period always fell after the first snowfall or hard frost. Most of the article is written as if the US is the only country involved. In 2010 this mini-season is currently falling on November 7-15th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.118.149.54 (talk) 15:29, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Source: Dick Goddard - Cleveland 5:30p.m. FOX News/Weather 11/09/06" - The writing style of this section is not in keeping with the rest, also the term "Fall" is used instead of Autumn which differs from the rest of the article. Needs a rewrite. Darkflame23 16:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I found a very queer paragraph in the "overview" section of the article (the second one about "Humanzees" and "Dr. Peppa"). Since I am new here, and know very little about the weather, I do not wish to edit it myself. However, I suggest deleting or rewriting it. Dramatic chipmunk (talk) 15:14, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

The article is also focused on the Northern Hemisphere, and while the phrase originated there, it is still used throughout Australia and New Zealand. A rewrite to cover this and issues raised above would seem to be necessary, in my opinion. Thedoctor98 (talk) 19:56, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Usage

References to specific regions have been removed. While this may be good for some the subject matter is subject to much geographic folklore and geographic dependant climate, apparently. The following (second?) paragraph specifies another type of "Indian Summer" definition and specifies particular regions to apply it to. This makes your editted paragraph contradictory and not inline with other paragraphs using specific regions for each definition.

There are some definition contradictions in this article paragraph that need, overall editting for consistency. Reference to snow is an example "before the first snow" and then later "or snow" (being a requirement).

This article needs to demand cites for each edit as this subject matter is almost totally based on folklore and very different for different geographic areas and climates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.118.149.54 (talk) 01:37, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

The passage in question was "The generally accepted use of the term in some regions is when the weather is sunny and clear, and above 21 °C (70 °F), and all of the leaves of the trees have turned but before the first snow has fallen; a period normally associated with mid-October to late-November in the northern states of the United States and Canadian regions." which I have edited down to "The generally accepted use of the term is when the weather is sunny and clear, and above 21 °C (70 °F), and all of the leaves of the trees have turned but before the first snow has fallen; a period normally associated with mid-October to late-November.".

This is a general statement that applies to many/most parts of the Northern Hemisphere, in particular to Europe, so it is not helpful to exemplify "the northern states of the United States and Canadian regions" when the statement applies much more broadly. Subsequent examples are/should be exceptions to the generality.

Having said that, I fully agree that the page needs considerable editorial work, in particular in relation to providing cites. Bridgeplayer (talk) 03:06, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Ridiculous definition

Are there any references for the absurd claim that it has to be in a particular month with particular leaf colouration and temperature? Turkeyphan^t 17:05, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I have brought the definition back in line with the reference. Bridgeplayer (talk) 18:07, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

If that's what the ref says it's still ridiculous. Indian summers have nothing to do with frost or a particular temperature. All it means is an unusually warm late summer. For example, see the OED: (http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/94406?redirectedFrom=indian%20summer#) Turkeyphan^t 01:21, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the reference to frost is incorrect. Long or late summers have no association with frosts, in fact usually the reverse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 23:19, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

In France and Britain in the 1800s

The 1853 novel Villette by the British author Charlotte Bronte uses the term Indian summer (p. 137 of the 2007 Dover edition) in

About this time [in September in France] the Indian summer closed and the equinoctial storms began; ....

This usage is different than what is mentioned here in the "in Europe section". Duoduoduo (talk) 20:44, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

... Indian summer does not occur in a Mediterranean biome ~

... what is wrong with you people? Nature of the thing, there is no Indian summer in the desert southwest; there is no such thing as Indian summer, in Los Angeles. A late autumnal, early winter rebound of unseasonable warmth, a function of temperature regression ex post the first autumnal killer frost, Indian summer does not (NOT) occur in Mediterranean biomes. Indian summer is not (NOT) an unseasonable warmth in early autumn. There is no (NO) such thing as an Indian summer, in early autumn -- QED, asj. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.100.89.240 (talk) 16:18, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

I guess the answer is that this entry is about how the term Indian summer is used and variant descriptions of warm spells in other climes, not the definition you've supplied, which seems to be far narrower than the usage. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 16:26, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Unneeded Snarkiness

"On the Indian subcontinent, it's referred to merely as 'summer'."

I'm removing this, because it's abundantly evident that the word "Indian" in the phrase has nothing to do with the Indian subcontinent, and I strongly doubt that anyone anywhere calls a period of unseasonably warm weather after a period of more seasonally appropriate temperatures just "summer". I assume this was added because someone thought it was funny.216.70.243.82 (talk) 14:39, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the removing this for snark, but according to the first reference, it's usage may actually originate in the Indian sub-continent. Curious how this article misses that entirely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.237.132.222 (talk) 15:16, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Fahrenheit versus Centigrade

This article is about a term of US origin describing a phenomenon primarily affecting the United States, and the definition given is from the United States National Weather Service. Does it not make more sense, then, to put the US measurement system BEFORE the international one? I suggest the following revision to the intro paragraph: The US National Weather Service defines this as weather conditions that are sunny and clear with temperatures above 70 °F (21 °C), occurring late-September to mid-November.68.112.148.213 (talk) 18:42, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Good point. Wikipedia policy agrees with you that non-scientific articles should use the local measuring system. However, I checked the reference and the US NWS does not mention any temp. so the question is moot. Temp removed. PS for the record the term Indian Summer is also widely used in Canada where no one under the age of 60 really grasps °F. --Cornellier (talk) 02:51, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Added Section on Controversy

Hello -

I've added a section on controversy, and added five separate citations to support the addition. My intention is to to address what appears to be a fairly common question regarding the potentially pejorative nature of this phrase in a way that looks toward genuine analysis. I agree with the above that this article overall needs more citation and work, and intend to continue working on this article (both the existing content and the controversy section). I hope to eventually be able justify the removal of the references needed tag.

Please let me know if you have questions or concerns.

Thanks!

EvanClifthorne (talk) 19:07, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Hi Evan. This article is not the right place for a discussion of the nuances of the term Indian, since it's not proven that the etymology of the term Indian summer relates to racism towards Native Americans in the United States. --Cornellier (talk) 11:52, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

The "controversy" edits are excessively biased: They refer to sources such as a web site titled "put that shit on the list", the edits cherry-pick certain speculated negative connotations and rephrase them originally into Wikipedia's article, thereby omitting all the positive connotations throughout history that are mentioned in these and already existing more neutrally written references. There doesn't appear to be a controversy other than an inflammatory and provocative agenda by above-mentioned web site and the "Philadelphia News an Opinion" (from their "opinion" section); both these agitators generate their revenue by attention rather than correctness. I see no basis for encyclopedic interest. I like William Deedler's article (from the U.S. weather service), but that was already there before this weeks edits. Since the edits are so excessively slanted I suggest reverting and then attempting to put this marginal topic into a footnote maybe, or a small paragraph at the end. 199.72.62.66 (talk) 19:28, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

This is a fair assessment of the situation. Reverting these edits is the right thing to do. --Cornellier (talk) 20:05, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

--- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evanclifthorne (talk • contribs) 20:50, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello - the term Indian is not what is being discussed here. What is being discussed is the apparent ambiguity regarding the origin of the term, in the context of institutional racism. In that context, the racially informed historical roots of much American history has been so consistently whitewashed that it inherently requires some level of rational and potentially speculative analysis.

Also, while I ascribe no ill-will or malcontent to the discussion points above, the comments are nonetheless a demonstrative vignette of institutional and structural racism in America. Here are some of examples of how the above discussion comments fit that description:

• reference to advocates for racial awareness as agitators -- this same term has been used since (at least) the 1950s by opponents of the civil rights movement in America as a way to further marginalize or discredit those who sought to draw attention to racism in America.

• reference to the etymology "not being proven" -- in most cases, racism is nearly impossible to "prove" definitively, in large part because history is written by the winners. American History is intrinsically linked with systemic racism, a key part of which is the consistent obfuscation of the less currently palatable aspects of the history.

• a reference to "neutrally written" sources -- this comment suggests that discussions regarding the ambiguous etymology are somehow "not neutral"; that to discuss the racially charged history of this term is inappropriate. This unfairly suggests that institutional racism is an opinion, and not a fact.

• a reference to "positive connotations" -- this fundamentally assumes that origin theories based on racism are "negative" and artificially frames the discussion as one based on opinion instead of on fact.

• a reference to "an inflammatory and provocative agenda" -- this is one of the most commonly used phrases by opponents of civil rights to marginalize the so-called "agitators" previously referenced.

I could go on, but the final point is this. These comments do not suggest that improvements be made to this section (which I admit could be numerous) but instead suggests eliminating it altogether. It is an absolute reality that to discuss the so-called "facts" about this subject without even a reference to the origins of the term is to embrace an institutionally racist approach. Given that the origins are unclear, this necessarily warrants some level of rational analysis, as exists on a great many Wikipedia entries. EvanClifthorne (talk) 20:49, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Look at this agitator, lel. 2601:989:4300:20B0:7419:8BF3:8EB3:BFE (talk) 17:43, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

1778 and 1996

I would like if we could directly cite the letter and the essay referring to it. Anyone know if copies are available online? Can we find any earlier references? 64.228.90.179 (talk) 18:42, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Translation

I don't think "Indian Summer" mean the same thing in English as it does it other languages. In some other languages, the term is commonly used to refer to what would be considered "Fall Foliage" in North American English. --207.38.206.45 (talk) 05:36, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Été indien

In Northwestern Quebec in the early 1900s, the term Indian summer was certainly used to describe this unseasonably warm period in the fall. This is how my father, a trapper in his young age who had an assigned "hunting territory" alongside natives' territories, described it to me in my youth: it is that period, after the first snow(s) has(have) melted, where the hare's fur has changed to white, and until (approximately) the next snowfall. During this period, the hare is vulnerable as it stands out against the once-again dark background. This is not a scientific determination but an anecdotal one, and the one I would always use then, when hunting rabbits. As I recall, however, and contrary to what is depicted in the photograph in the main page, leaves are mostly gone by that time. 142.113.241.23 (talk) 02:45, 22 November 2019 (UTC) Mike R.