Talk:7.92×57mm Mauser

8×60mm S

Shouldn't the article at least somewhere mention the 8×60mm S cartridge, created after WWI when the manufacture of "military" cartridges was banned? They increased the case length by 3mm, and subtly stretched the neck to create an almost identical (albeit slightly more powerful) cartridge that could be used in older 8x57mm S rifles by a simple rechambering of the barrel. I was surprised there wasn't even a link in the "see also" section, or the "derivatives" section. The 8x60mm S is probably the closest derivative of the lot! I got a lot of good info off of this page http://www.germanguns.com/upload/archive/index.php/t-584.html?s=f2f6e2a2bc7854553c963696803bebcc, but in particular this entry down at the bottom which sort of cleared the whole muddle up:

"WOW, here is a lot to clean up! Please, keep in mind the time span from 1945 to now, 2012, is longer than the span from 1888 to 1945, when a lot of gun, caliber, cartridge and powder development took place. Many of the then popular cartridges are long obsolete, such as many contemporary American ones. Have you tried recently to buy some fresh ammo in .33 Win or .25 Rem at your local gunshop? The history of the 8mm cartridges is hard to understand for an American who has no access to old German language books, catalogs and hunting magazines. I claim to have learned something about it during the last half century, so let's begin at the beginning: When the original M88 = 8x57 cartridge was developed for military purposes, it used a long, heavy .318" 227gr round nose bullet, fully jacketed in thin, nickel plated steel. The original military M88 barrels had a groove diameter of .319" but this was deepened in 1892 to .321" to .323" to prolong barrel life. The early Gew98 rifles retained the oversize .323 grooves. The long, heavy round nose slugged up in these "oversize" bores and gave acceptable accuracy for the military. The civilian Suhl and Zella-Mehlis barrelmakers soon found out the tighter barrels shot better, so they adjusted groove- to bullet diameter. Unfortunately many followed the peasant's rule: "if tighter shoots better, much tighter will shoot much better" and overdid things. I have slugged some pre-WW1 8mm barrels that were only .315"! Remember, there were no set standards until 1940, so if the gun stood firing the "4000 at Beschusspatrone", everything was ok. When the German army started to modernize the 8x57 military cartridge after 1900 the new, light 10g = 154gr S = spitz = pointed bullets with their short bearing surface would not slug up on firing any more. Instead of changing the rifling specifications again, the bullet diameter was increased to .323". This allowed the already existing military rifles to be converted by simply enlarging the neck area and throat of the chamber to accept and release the new, slightly thicker bullets. Now the "military" S caliber differed considerably from the "civilian" I one. Apparently this bothered noone, as military and sporting loads were clearly separated and most bolt action I rifles shot the oversize military loads without alarming effects. The other way around, military S barrels still shot the old-fashioned long round-nose I bullets with reasonable accuracy. When the Versailles "peace treaty" was signed in 1920, the 100 000 men Reichswehr was only conceded a very limited supply of military cartridges, barely sufficient for the necessary training but designed to dry up within a few days in case of a new war and insufficient to build up reserve stocks. As the Austrians had already evaded a similar provision of theit St.Germain treaty by keeping the limited supply of war ammo in stock and issuing "civilian" soft-nose hunting ammo for target training to their troops, the manufacture of any ammunition that might be used in the military rifles was prohibited in Germany. So not the I or S bore was outlawed, but the making of any 8x57 rimless cartridges for civilian use. This ban on the 8x57, I and S, led to the development of the civilian hunting cartridge 8x60 to allow for rechambering the unfed 8x57 commercial bolt action rifles. Of course the I bullet diameter came first, as the .318" caliber was still deemed the more accurate one. But during the turmoils following the great war many military rifles "went under" and were sporterized for hunting use, so there was a small demand for light bullet S loads, so there was a limited offering of 8x60S loads. The 1921 RWS export catalog still shows the 8x57, not yet the 8x60, loaded with both 14.7g and 10g pointed bullets, but does not mention I or S bores. The mid-1920s Steigleder catalog still features the 8x57IR and the 8x60, but no more the 8x57 and not an 8x60R. Jon Speed in his book Mauser-OOSR shows a handwritten table from the Mauser factory, dated 1926, giving the commercial 8x57 (for export) and 8x60 rifles a groove diameter of .319 - .320", linked to the footnote " these rifles get the chamber and the throat for Spitz bullets, so that these may be used also." The 1930 Burgsmüller catalog shows the same offering, 8x57IR, 8x60 "as the replacement for the unavailable military 8x57" and the 8x64 Brenneke, but neither I nor S bores are mentioned. the 1934 DWM handbook shows 13 different loads for both the 8x57IR, 8x57R (A-base) and 8x57, but only 3 entries are marked "for use in S-barrels only". For the 8x60/8x60R the ratio is 5 out of 12 "S only", including the "Magnum Bombe" load. For the 8x64/65R Brenneke it is 2 out of 6, but still no S suffix to the cartridge designation. The 1937 RWS catalog shows a total of 40 8x57I and 8x57IR loads, one each marked "for S-barrels only." Some 8x60 and 8x60R loads are cataloged as "Magnum" loads for S barrels, but the S moniker is still not affixed to the cartridge name. The 1940 Rws Handbook finally shows the clear-cut difference between 8x57I, 8x57IR, 8x60 and 8x60R loads and the corresponding S cartridges. On page 43 these suggestions for a future change to "S caliber only": The rimless 8mm cartridges will be factory loaded with S =.323" bullets only, by the use of modern powders there will be no excessive pressure when shot through bolt-actions with I barrels. The 8x57IR will be available with I =.318" bullets only, there will be no 8x57IRS loads. The 8x60RS gets the knurled rim. As we know, this simplification never became true. After 1945 the German Hunters were disarmed. Many hid their guns away, but the majority of hunting guns was destroyed, liberated or looted. So today there are possibly more 8mmI guns in the USA than in Germany. When the German hunters were finally allowed to rearm in the early 1950s, few could afford new guns. Many unearthed -literally- their rust-pitted prewar guns and continued to use them. Others found rusty and rotten K98Ks in the woods, had the actions rebarreled with plentiful , leftover Luftwaffe machine gun barrels in 8x57IS, had them restocked and mounted with any old scope they could get. Though the European ammo companies thought otherwise at first, the I bore in new-made guns had become a thing of the past by the end of the 1950s. The ammo makers one after another ceased making I bullets and loads. The current offerings are rare. The 8x57R360, 8x58R, 8x57R(A), 8x51 are completely forgotten, the 8x57I is a pure handloading matter. RWS recently ceased making the 8x57IR, so the only I diameter factory load is the 8x57IR by Sellier&Bellot, the only bullet available to handloaders their 196gr rn sp.

(Unnecessary emphasis is mine) — Preceding unsigned comment added by .45Colt (talk • contribs) 13:15, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Photo shows a 30-06?

In the lead-in picture, is the second-from-the-left actually a 30-06?

It looks similar in diameter to the 6.5x55, suggesting it is a 270.

Still a good and useful picture, but I think it may be mislabeled. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.142.154.98 (talk) 16:24, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

I measured the diameter of the .30-06 Springfield and .308 Winchester projectiles in the picture as best as I could and they are identical. The cannelure makes the .30 projectile look slender.--Francis Flinch (talk) 19:42, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

I see that now. When I cover up the cannelure they do look the same diameter. Thank you for the quick response -Ulrich — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.206.74.13 (talk) 02:25, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

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Ballistic performance

The examples of ballistic performance all seem to be rather "hot" loadings; I guess I was expecting to see the standard WW2-era military loadings producing a muzzle velocity of 750-800 m/s which I eventually found in a (somewhat broken) table further down the page, though I accept "I was expecting to see" is a little subjective. Any reason why the five selected for the infobox are what they are, though? --Vometia (talk) 03:31, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

The rimmed cartridge is a JRS, not IRS.

I am not a Wikipedia editor but someone should correct this error. I checked the archive pages and it has been wrong for many years. This error occurs on Production History - Variants, in the Civilian use section body and photo caption, on The 7.92×57mm Mauser as parent case photo caption. In the photo you can actually see the JRS letters on the cartridge. If you examine the pdf document for Citation 1 it shows JRS not IRS many times within the document. Admittedly the German CIP document in Table II for Citation 12 does show IRS. I will assume that is a typo in the document or perhaps a German language variation. Regardless JRS is the correct designation. 2601:5C2:200:122E:40B5:3075:C62E:29AF (talk) 17:03, 26 February 2023 (UTC)