Talk:Nijisanji

Graduations

Nijisanji (particularly its English-speaking branch, as well as what used to be the Indonesian branch) had a plethora of graduations throughout the last year, starting with most recently with the graduation of founding talent Pomu Rainpuff, with other major talents such as Nina Kosaka or Mysta Ryas, having graduated beforehand.

The high amount of graduations has been noticed by some sources discussing them,[1][2] with one of them going as far as an calling it an "exodus". [3] The same source has also covered allegations about Nijisanji being a "black company",[4] as well as fears of a domino effect following previous graduations.[5]

With so many graduations occurring, I believe there should at least be a mention of the topic in the article. Sr. Knowthing ¿señor? 01:18, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I believe that EVERY graduation should be put at least in the History section,as that is and should be considered as "History" Lightmaxifrvr (talk) 15:06, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

New Additions Removed

Some new additions included Graduations.

This is when talents and the like, leave the company.

Many pages include former and current members.

Many members have left the agency and should still be cited. The notes about the company firing people for suspicious reasons, should stay here.

"Black Company" usually refers to certain types of companies. The allegations and reasonings have no reason to be removed.

Many public companies have allegations against them on their Wikipedia pages.

The edits calling the company a "Black Company" outright, should be removed. 65.183.108.158 (talk) 20:06, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

The edits calling the company a "Black Company" outright, should be re-instated. 46.123.252.157 (talk) 22:33, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

@46.123.252.157 While I get the outrage against Nijisanji, we should wait for more people to come out against them and more reliable sources(not Dextero) to report on it before labeling it as a black company, Additionally, such a thing would be best put under a controversies tab imo. KoP152 (talk) 00:43, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I mean... it IS kind of silly that page for THE most controversial major VTuber company has, for most of it's existance, had no mention of controversies, no mention of their hilarously bad turnover rate for talents and recorded (several times!) shady tactics, and attempts to add these are for the most part wiped completely within a couple of minutes as 'vandalism' with nothing but praise for the company allowed. All the proof you would realistically need for a halfway decent start to a controversies tab can be found by going to Selen's announcement and seeing screenshots of the Community Notes it has accumulated that were deleted for no good reason (one of them literally pointed out they said they privated the video, then said that Selen saying they privated the video was a lie and slander/libel from her)181.189.25.81 (talk) 02:59, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, none of this matters without a Reliable Source to cite all of this to. I know the drama roiling Nijisanji is indeed notable, but without sources, it’s going to be removed. And no, Dexerto and stuff like animecorner.me or dotesports are not Reliable Sources. Also, calling Nijisanji a “black company” in Wikipedia’s voice, again without any attribution, is not going to fly either and will be removed as vandalism. GhostStalker (Got a present for ya! / Mission Log) 03:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Allegations against the company should definitely be noted, they should however be listed as allegations until verified. These pages are supposed to be a source for all relevant information, including the bad. 2601:985:4480:5660:F2:A72F:15EE:18B5 (talk) 03:51, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Not how this works. Allegations still have to be cited to Reliable Sources, and you have to keep BLP in mind as well. The ANN source now used in the article is considered an RS, so as long as you cite based off of the information in that, it should be fine.GhostStalker (Got a present for ya! / Mission Log) 07:36, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

screenshots of the Community Notes that user generated content, which is mostly a no-go as a source for topics like this. – robertsky (talk) 08:52, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I get the outrage.

But, if you want to make a good edit and add valuable tabs.

If you call Nijisanji a black company or place "Black Company" in front of their companies name or groups name, this will result in Admins and the like stepping in.

Nijisanji hides behind NDAs, so most claims are difficult to prove.

But, theres enough claims from current and former members and from those who have worked with the company, to make an allegations page or something similar to it.

Dont make edits calling them a Black Company, outright.

People come here for reliable information and data on things.

That claim is unproven and people aren't adding it properly either.

So, those edits should be removed.

A controversies tab, would probably be fine. They have quite a few of those, and many of them are similar to past occurrences.

Some Twitter posts of fellows who were given NDAs, and a now former member had to pay them out of pocket, because their NDAs had the wrong names on them.

And they company kept on sending the wrong ones.

There's now two cases of that happening, but one was paid.

These were claimed on their Twitter pages. Thus, Twitter would work for primary sources for those accounts.

Sometimes people confuse things with rules regarding reliable sources.

Taking random claims from whoever, would be unreliable. These are artists, those who have worked with Nijisanji.

Nijisanji paid at least one person, thus they'd probably be considered contractors.

Despite this, going on about "Black Company", will anger those who check these pages for facts. If someone wants to edit the page, keep those out.

People may actually look at the edits and consider them. If someone still revokes the edits, talk about it.

Others could lock them out for page vandalism.

Not showing things, which discredit the company, would look bad on Wikipedia. Wikipedia doesn't work for any company and is meant to be unbiased.

And there's good reason to add some of these mentioned things.

While looking through the edits, I did see something about sources being removed for an illegitimate reasoning.

Former talents or members of the company, was the reason.

I believe that the users profile indicated that they likely aren't someone who speaks English as a native language.

In other countries, former talents or members of a company can be seen as biased, or they're just removed as sources - that sort of thing.

Here, thats not the case.

I'd have to go back and check the edits, but I saw a few things which were fine, but got removed and nobody revoked the changes.

I also saw edits which would've been great, not taking the "Black Company" into consideration.

A user also didn't submit what they were adding or changing. This flagged them, I believe.

Bot got them. Admin likely stepped in afterwards.

My point is simple. Just follow the rules when making edits / additions. If you don't, the staff here may become a bit biased and just shut down any changes here, because people are doing more than adding information.

You also need to cite sources and link them to each line, properly.

Another controversy, could be that the company hires its members out as contractors.

Its been leaked by a talent, that the members aren't paid.

They make commissions off of donations during streams. Their merchandise profits are meager and they are likely given a lump sum for the merchandise.

The company mentioned that they'd continue to release Selen's merchandise, even with her terminated and that she had already been paid.

This means, that she likely doesn't get paid per sale or anything.

Other companies don't do this. Similar ones.

Things like that, would beef up a controversies tab, and add a good reason to even have them.

I've simply mentioned these things, so that others can research the mentioned topics, and maybe find proper sources - make a proper edit.

Wikipedia should save unfinished edits.

Just make sure that you know how citing works on here, and how to properly do things. 65.183.108.158 (talk) 13:24, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

There at bare minimum needs to be a section for the controversy and allegations

Even if it has to be talked about simply as public controversy and allegations and we pretend their are no reputable sources (which there are several artists who have previously worked for the company as well as the creators now know as Dokibird, MatraKan and have talked about it and just because they can’t officially say who they used to be doesn’t mean everyone doesn’t know) the public outrage on twitter must be at least mentioned as a thing that happened. 99.24.220.57 (talk) 14:46, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Twitter itself is not a reliable source except for non exceptional claims not involving third parties, and linking (for example) Doki to Selen without an official source constitutes Original Research and will likely fall afoul of the BLP policy as well. I agree that the Twitter backlash after their most recent announcement, as well as former creators cutting ties with Niji over this should be mentioned, plus the hits to their stock prices, but we unfortunately can’t until an actual RS covers this. GhostStalker (Got a present for ya! / Mission Log) 15:32, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Twitter is literally a primary source in the modern day how is “(person) tweeted (content)” not allowed! Are you not allowed to quote speeches? Can you not for example quote deSantos president candidaty announcement because it was on twitter live? Can you only requote from news articles about it? 2600:1700:2210:6A40:DCA8:5241:953:F8E7 (talk) 17:24, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Read WP:TWITTER about sourcing from there. Non exceptional claims not involving third parties can be sourced to Twitter, but this situation is all but non exceptional. But yes, generally we need a third party RS news outlet to report on something before it can be cited in an article. GhostStalker (Got a present for ya! / Mission Log) 18:07, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

That is a terrible policy. Those new site are going to be citing the exact same tweets so why do they have to be copy and pasted to a news site before they can be copy and pasted again to Wikipedia! The things I’m talking about citing are “(persona) tweeted (content)” that is an objective statement why does a new site have to say it first. Especially on niche but important topics major EN news is not going to even of the terminations themselves are being announced on twitter. Doki bird isn’t going on TV to be interviewed she’s talking about it live on YouTube. YouTube news channels are successful because they can afford to report on niche topics. If you invalidate those as primary sources you make it impossible to write articles on anything that major news channels don’t report on. 2600:1700:2210:6A40:6C4B:94B4:6624:67FD (talk) 19:26, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Because WP:V is a core policy. You’re not going to be able to get around that. I would suggest you familiarize yourself with WP Policies, especially regarding sourcing, before attempting to wade in to edit articles like this. GhostStalker (Got a present for ya! / Mission Log) 19:31, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

I know it policy and I’m not going to be able to change it. That doesn’t mean I’m not allowed to give my opinion (ie. “Wade in”) on it 2600:1700:2210:6A40:6C4B:94B4:6624:67FD (talk) 19:33, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

By wade in, I meant editing this article when it comes off of semi-protection, not expressing your opinion here on the talk page, and I apologize if I gave you the wrong impression. GhostStalker (Got a present for ya! / Mission Log) 19:48, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Would this suffice as a reliable source? 99.248.79.175 (talk) 20:24, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

For Dexerto, per WP:RSPSS, "Editors agree that it is a tabloid publication that rarely engages in serious journalism; while it may be used as a source on a case by case basis (with some editors arguing for the reliability of its esports coverage), it is usually better to find an alternative source, and it is rarely suitable for use on BLPs or to establish notability." HapHaxion _{(talk / contribs)} 20:53, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Well as of current that’s the only website I can find that’s covering it so either that, twitter and YouTube are allowed as sources or Wikipedia is unable to even mention the massive controversy and backlash that is going on. 2600:1700:2210:6A40:386B:69FF:FB0:A4D4 (talk) 21:14, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

As I mentioned before, the previously linked Anime News Network article is a Reliable Source. However, it unfortunately doesn’t cover much of the controversy and elides most of the information surrounding Selen’s termination. GhostStalker (Got a present for ya! / Mission Log) 21:23, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

That’s what I said as of yet no source that Wikipedia deems “reputable” as of yet has talk about this and thus it is impossible to write about on Wikipedia 2600:1700:2210:6A40:386B:69FF:FB0:A4D4 (talk) 21:29, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Found an article that appears to show the official Twitter/X account for the Indonesian Wikipedia appearing to reference the controversy/incident in a post on 5 February, in addition to another post the following day. HapHaxion _{(talk / contribs)} 04:32, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

If this source is deemed valid, it also has both community notes (with the supporting evidence for said notes), references the connection between Selen and Doki, the Niji IR message, Lilypichu's tweet, and the Anycolor stock price drop. Rockman1159 (talk) 05:05, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I’m unsure if animecorner.me would count as an RS, because I do see that they have an About Us page referencing some kind of editorial control, but their writers seem to just be fans of some sort. I don’t see it listed on WP:ANIME’s Reliable Sources list (WP:A&M/RS), so probably best to ask around there or at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard ((WP:RSN). GhostStalker (Got a present for ya! / Mission Log) 12:30, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

In light of recent events

Social media, such as Twitter and YouTube are no reliable sources for any Wikipedia page.

Wikipedia is not a place for you to vent your anger and frustration.

There is no reliable source that labels the corporation as a Black company nor do they cover the current controversy, so I am strongly against including those in the page at the moment.

• In any case, No matter the source: a Wikipedia article should not use the biased language that would suggest a controversial allegation is accurate, and should use unbiased language instead (Provide information about notable allegations, but don't label the company while the truth of allegations are also challenged and controversial). Twitter is not the publisher of any article but a website that distributes articles posted by various publishers who are mostly unknown individuals, But there are also a few reliable publishers who do post there: It is the reputation of the actual publisher of information that need to be ascertained to assess reliability, and not just that of their current hosting provider. Even from Twitter there don't appear to be postings regarding this from an account where the reliability and independence could be established, however.. as far as I can tell it is currently Not yet Verifiable that allegations against the company are notable. --Mysidia (talk) 13:34, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

The page is now semi-protected, that should prevent most of the vandalism we've seen in the last few days. Anime King (talk) 07:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)