Talk:German battleship Bismarck

Failed Luftwaffe and Navy intervention

Should it be added in the "Sinking" section that one of the main reasons the British attack on Bismarck was successful was because the ships had been damaged just beyond the Luftwaffe's maximum range? \
Also, the fact the British thought that the plume of smoke in the distance as they were rescuing Bismarck's crew was from a U-Boat was partly because the German Navy actually had deployed U-Boats to rescue the Bismarck. But due to lack of speed couldn't make it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dario DeCasseres (talk • contribs) 00.51, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Strengthening the stern

"In 1942 Prinz Eugen was also torpedoed in the stern, which collapsed. This prompted a strengthening of the stern structures on all German capital ships." Did Prinz Eugen alone prompt this change? This wording, plus the sentences before it, create some ambiguity around whether Bismarck's sinking contributed to that as well. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 12:45, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

@The ed17: - sorry, meant to check on this earlier but I've been busy lately. The relevant line in Ballard is: "Only after the damage suffered by the Prinz Eugen were German warships of heavy cruiser and larger modified to strengthen their stern structures." He explicitly rules out Bismarck's stern as having played a role, stating: "...but if anyone on board knew what had happened [to Bismarck's stern] he did not live to talk about it." Parsecboy (talk) 23:41, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

No worries! Based on that quote, I tweaked the sentences. Feel free to tweak them more or revert. :-) Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 02:39, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Works for me, thanks Ed. Parsecboy (talk) 09:32, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Scuttling: What’s the big deal?

I see this has come up yet again: What is it with the Germans and scuttling? Why are they so pre-occupied with it?
I thought that, if a ship is clearly doomed and being abandoned, it is standard practice (if it isn’t sinking fast enough) to help it on its way. So scuttling is only notable, surely, when it doesn’t happen, say for example in the case of U-110. Otherwise it just looks like a ploy to deny credit for sinking. I’ve noticed this in the case of U-boat sinkings as well, where a boat that is fatally damaged and subsequently abandoned has been listed as scuttled, rather than sunk by whoever dealt the fatal blow: viz U-3012, U-2524.
I could put this down to German nit-picking, but the same doesn’t happen in the reverse case: an Allied ship, fatally hit and put under by its own side is listed as sunk by whichever U-boat fired the shot: viz Woodpecker, torpedoed by U-256 on 20 August 44, and sinking 7 days later under tow, is listed as sunk by U-256 on the 20th. Bickerton, torpedoed by U-354, and scuttled in order to focus effort on saving the carrier Nabob (hit in the same incident) is listed as sunk by U-354. Nabob, which got back to port under her own steam and was beached is also listed as sunk by U-354, despite being repaired after the war and  having a 20-year merchant career. The list goes on... Surely what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Xyl 54 (talk) 23:22, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

If you have references which make it clear that the Woodpecker and Bickerton articles need fixing, then fix them. Wdford (talk) 12:27, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Our article on HMS Nabob (D77) does NOT say it was sunk or scuttled, it says "Returned to US 1946, sold for scrap, but resold for conversion to mercantile use." I'm sure you already knew that. Wdford (talk) 12:31, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Well, I was mainly making an observation about the double standards in some German/pro-German sources: And I don’t have an issue with the ship articles you mentioned, though I do with the U-boat site, especially when the information there turns up largely unfiltered onto the U-boat pages here (viz. here, and here). And that if we followed he same logic here the fate section would just read "27 May 1941 sunk by units of the Home Fleet 41,000 tons". But I’m sure you already knew that.

Anyway, the question remains, what’s the big deal? If starting the scuttling process was standard procedure when abandoning ship why is it worth dwelling on? There’s no detailed description of getting the lifeboats out, or of evacuating the wounded, or of destroying the confidential books (all standard procedures in these circumstances). And why does it affect the outcome? I imagine the skipper of (for example) U-960 had scuttling charges set before they went over the side, but the only outcome recorded in such cases by all sources is (in that particular case) sunk by destroyers Niblack and Ludlow. All that needs to be said here is "As the ship was clearly doomed, the order was given to abandon ship. Scuttling charges were set following standard operating procedure". It seems the only thing notable about the scuttling stuff is the controversy itself. Xyl 54 (talk) 23:24, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

The problem is, the controversy exists; nobody tries to pretend that SMS Lützow wasn't sunk as a result of British shellfire at Jutland (HMS Invincible's in particular). As annoying as it may be, it must be covered, because just about every secondary source on this ship does. Parsecboy (talk) 23:36, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

@ Parsecboy: I understand/agree that the scuttling should be mentioned and the controversy should be covered; but I feel we aren’t really doing that; The article only presents the scuttling itself, and in a different way to that of any other ship in similar circumstances (Allied , Axis, or other- I’d forgotten about Lutzow!) Are there any RS that discuss the controversy as a controversy, ie why it is such a big deal? Xyl 54 (talk) 21:27, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

The lead currently states: "The ship was scuttled to prevent her being boarded by the British, and to allow the ship to be abandoned so as to limit further casualties. Most experts agree that the battle damage would have caused her to sink eventually" - this is about as fair a characterization of the positions of many experts as we are likely to achieve. Just about nobody believes the scuttling was immaterial, even if they disagree on their estimate of how long Bismarck would've remained afloat absent it. And I don't know that anyone exists who believes that Bismarck would have remained afloat indefinitely had Tovey decided to pack it in without finishing the job.

I don't know of any sources that discuss the controversy itself (aside from noting that it exists), though there may be some. Parsecboy (talk) 11:02, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

@ Parsecboy: Fair enough; You're probably right (the operative phrase being 'as fair...as we are likely to achieve'). Anyway I did a brief search for stuff on the controversy itself: Some interesting items were, a suggestion that some on the Bismarck had tried to surrender (or at least to parley) ([from Ballantyne); that that torpedo hits on the starboard side might have counter-flooded her and actually prolonged sinking (at KBismarck); that the Brits didn’t want to capture her, they just wanted her sunk (Ballantyne again); something on the myth of Bismarck's 'invincibility' and a suggestion that she was in fact among the ranks of less heavily armed capital warships in 1941 (Carlson); and that in the end it was 'immaterial which side executed the coup de grâce (as) the object of the exercise was obtained, in either case, as the direct result of British arms' ([New York Times). I also found a report on the interrogation of the survivors, which I've added as an external link. Regards, Xyl 54 (talk) 23:47, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

PS: I also came across this, which rang a bell... Xyl 54 (talk) 23:51, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately, as is often the case with famous ships like this, there's a lot of propaganda, usually from both sides. Of course the Germans want to pretend their ship was better than anybody else's, but there's also incentive for the British to overestimate Bismarck as well - to justify their initial failures and then to claim that "the ship was invincible, but we sank her anyway" (I've heard it argued that the Brits overrated Rommel as a commander in 1942 for similar reasons, and then he became something of a bogeyman for the Allies through 1944). The trouble we have it to sort fact from fiction (something I think we've done a fair job at over at Bismarck-class battleship, where a number of the ships' faults are discussed (though upon re-reading the armor section, we should probably make it clearer that the general layout was obsolescent - I wrote that article more than a decade ago, and it's been way far down on the list to go back and update).

On your last point, I think the final sentence in the article ("Ballard later concluded that 'As far as I was concerned, the British had sunk the ship regardless of who delivered the final blow.'" is the right way to conclude the article. Parsecboy (talk) 23:45, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

However, Wikipedia does NOT follow the "logic" of other sites. This is merely an attempt at a strawman diversion.

It is NOT asserted that scuttling was a standard procedure when abandoning a clearly-sinking ship. In the case of Bismarck, the commanding officer specifically ordered the scuttling because the ship was NOT sinking, and he was not willing to allow the enemy to capture his ship. The scuttling process added at least half an hour to the abandoning process, and it cost hundreds of lives which might have been saved, including the commander's own life. He did not do this merely out of a bureaucratic desire to follow some pointless standard process.

I do however agree that the scuttling itself is notable, although only because some jingoistic editors continue to insist that it didn’t happen - despite overwhelming evidence thereof.

If you are aware of errors in other wiki articles, then please correct them.Wdford (talk) 11:07, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

@ Wdford: Strawman diversion? That would be when someone deliberately misreads/mis-states an opponents argument, then replies so as to appear to refute it.

I did not say that scuttling was a 'bureaucratic desire to follow some pointless standard process'; nor did I say Bismarck was 'clearly sinking'. I said she was clearly doomed ie. already sinking; or, about to be sunk by enemy forces and unable to escape; or, about to be captured and unable to resist. Are you contending 'Bismarck' was in none of these states?

Nor did I say the scuttling itself was notable; I said I thought the controversy was. And I’m aware that WP doesn’t follow the logic of other sites, otherwise jingoistic editors wouldn’t be able to treat the demise of this ship as somehow different to that of a whole list of vessels as described in a whole raft of reliable sources.

And how exactly is taking steps to speed up a ship’s sinking going to add time to the abandoning process? Xyl 54 (talk) 21:38, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

On 28 September, you posted that: "All that needs to be said here is "As the ship was clearly doomed, the order was given to abandon ship. Scuttling charges were set following standard operating procedure". " I have pointed out already that this was NOT the standard operating procedure for an already-sinking ship. On 30 September you therefore came up with a personal definition of your phrase "clearly doomed", in which you mix the concepts of "already sinking" with "still floating and liable to be captured." This is tendentious, in that the entire controversy is about whether or not the ship needed to be scuttled. In reality the commander of the Bismarck scuttled the ship precisely because it was still floating, and was liable to be captured and towed to England. This is clear from the sources. When I pointed this out, you came back on 30 September with the ridiculous comment "Are you contending 'Bismarck' was in none of these states?" What is up with this pathetic nonsense? Wdford (talk) 10:45, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

You have also complained that "The article only presents the scuttling itself, and in a different way to that of any other ship in similar circumstances", as well as "otherwise jingoistic editors wouldn’t be able to treat the demise of this ship as somehow different to that of a whole list of vessels as described in a whole raft of reliable sources." Once again, Mr Strawman, this article (and presumably every other article) describes the actual facts on a case by case basis, and wiki-editors sift out both German propaganda and British propaganda. Once again, if any other wiki article is somehow factually incorrect, please make the necessary corrections according to the reliable sources. Wdford (talk) 10:45, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

You say Bismarck was "liable to be captured and towed to England." Exactly how liable were WWII battleships, which had been defeated on the high seas, to be captured and towed home by the victors? I must admit that, if I was Tovey standing there on the bridge of my flagship looking at 800 feet of blazing, sinking scrap iron, taking her in tow and dragging her several hundred miles back to Plymouth probably wouldn't be the first idea that crossed my mind. However, if you're saying this was "liable to happen" then I assume you're basing that on the fact it happened in a significant number of cases, so perhaps you could provide some examples? Fahrenheit666 (talk) 15:49, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Finally, you ask "how exactly is taking steps to speed up a ship’s sinking going to add time to the abandoning process?" Well, if you had actually read the article, you would know that the Bismarck never surrendered. The order to scuttle was given at around 09:30, at which time the ship's watertight doors were all opened, the vertical hatches were opened, counterflooding measures were halted, and scuttling charges were prepared. This scuttling command ensured that progressive flooding would commence immediately. However the battle continued while this was happening, and Oels and many others were killed at around 10:00. The scuttling charges themselves were only detonated at around 10:20, at which time the armour deck was still intact, the torpedo bulkheads were still working as designed, and the engines were still running, providing power to the screws as well as the pumps. Fifteen minutes after the scuttling charges detonated, at 10:35 or so, the ship had assumed a heavy port list, and slowly capsized. The British carried on firing torpedoes until the very end, inflicting further casualties. Bismarck finally sank at around 10:40, more than an hour after the last guns were destroyed and the decision to scuttle was made. If the Bismarck had simply surrendered at 9:30, the casualty stats would have been much different. Wdford (talk) 10:45, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

@ Wdford: I see you are still having problems with the phrase "clearly doomed": I presume you either (assuming good faith) aren’t familiar with it, or (equally possible) are deliberately misunderstanding. So here’s a link: for "death, failure, or a similarly negative outcome" read "sinking, about to be sunk, or about to be captured"; it isn't a leap...

And I don’t know what your problem is with scuttling as a standard procedure if a ship isn’t sinking fast enough, or to prevent it being captured; every navy in the world prepares for the eventuality of scuttling.

Also, the controversy here (what I'm arguing about) isn’t about whether the ship needed to be scuttled; it’s about why you think that it’s such a big deal. A whole bunch of German vessels (U-boats mostly) were fatally damaged and abandoned after scuttling measures were taken. In each case the sources used, including the German ones, simply record that as 'sunk by whoever', because scuttling if necessary before abandoning ship is only to be expected (see these, for example; U-643, U-841, or U-172, from a quick look at a couple of months in late 1943) Yet here we have an obsessive recording of the scuttling process (and yes I have read it; that’s what brought me here in the first place) as if it’s something out of the ordinary (presumably for some partisan, biased or prejudiced purpose like trying to diminish the Brit achievement): As if, in fact, the demise of this ship as somehow different. Verifiable doesn’t mean notable.

And "Mr Strawman"? That’s kind of ironic, considering.

Anyway, fun though this is, I have other other fish to fry, so I'll leave you to respond in any way you see fit...Xyl 54 (talk) 23:44, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

By your own admission Bismarck sank just 20 minutes after the scuttling charges were fired. The scuttling charges consisted of 12 pounds of gelignite, which was to be loaded into a plywood box attached to a 12" diameter feed water pipe. On firing, the charge would break the pipe and allow water to flood freely through the hull inlet valve, through the breached pipe and into the machinery spaces. Clearly, that isn't going to sink a 50,000 ton ship in a mere 20 minutes. In fact it would take hours to put her down. As all the sources agree that Bismarck was sinking anyway, and scuttling merely hastened her end by an undetermined amount of time, I don't see how you can claim that she had to be scuttled because "the ship was NOT sinking". Yes, she was sinking. And, if she went down only 20 minutes after the charges fired, she was already well into that process by the time the order to scuttle was given. I do think the emphasis on scuttling here is odd, and question why people find it so important. Fahrenheit666 (talk) 16:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

The scuttling began when the order to scuttle was given at around 09:30, after the main armament was disabled and the fight was over. At this point counterflooding measures were halted, the vertical hatches were opened, and down-flooding into the citadel began. In addition the ship's watertight doors were all opened, including the sealed doors into the shaft tunnels, which were already open to the sea due to damage to the seals caused by the torpedo hit days earlier. This flooding all started immediately, and it constitutes the "progressive flooding" which went on for about 40 minutes until the scuttling charges were detonated. This is clear from the sources, and it has been discussed here for years.

If you think the emphasis on scuttling here is odd, and you question why people find it so important, then ask yourself that question - why are you fussing about it yourself? Wdford (talk) 20:56, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I think there's been an over emphasis on scuttling in sinking Bismarck and too little on the effect of battle damage. It may be useful for editors to review archive 9 where I provide extensive quotes from Battleship Bismarck (2019): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:German_battleship_Bismarck/Archive_9 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Damwiki1 (talk • contribs) 19.36, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Also see archive 8 where I provided postwar tests against Tirpitz armour, which show how easy it was for RN 14in AP shells to penetrate Bismarck's armour: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:German_battleship_Bismarck/Archive_8#RN_tests_of_14in_AP_shells_against_Tirpitz_Armour — Preceding unsigned comment added by Damwiki1 (talk • contribs) 19.54, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Hood sunk by Prince Eugen not the Bismark

I dont have a reference here, but I have read that Ballard's observsation of the wreck of the Hood suggest that it is more likely that it was sunk by the Prince Eugen, not the Bismark. I have further read that both the initial reports and ongoing fiction to the contrary are nothing but propaganda - it would not look good to have a battleship like the Hood sunk by a "mere" cruiser. 2001:8003:E40F:9601:9D79:A255:911C:8514 (talk) 01:24, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

That theory is long-debunked, and you are mistaken that Ballard supports the idea. Parsecboy (talk) 01:43, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Gender of Bismarck

Bismarck's captain, Lindemann, referred to the ship by masculine pronouns. As such, I believe we should refer to the vessel by masculine pronouns in the article. I'm aware that ships are traditionally called by feminine pronouns, but I feel like the captain has authority over tradition here.

Sources: https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/why-do-ships-have-a-gender#:~:text=This%20is%20less%20common%20in,view%20of%20its%20awesome%20power.

https://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=55 SSBelfastFanatic (talk) 16:06, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

No, we won't be propagating Nazi propaganda, thanks. Parsecboy (talk) 16:09, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Alright, thanks! SSBelfastFanatic (talk) 16:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 May 2024

At around 10:00, a shell from King George V penetrated the upper citadel belt and exploded in the ship's after canteen, killing Oels on the gun deck and about a hundred others.

To

At around 10:00, a shell from King George V penetrated the upper citadel belt and exploded in the ship's aft canteen, killing Oels on the gun deck and about a hundred others.

"after canteen" to "aft canteen" 143.159.69.199 (talk) 07:22, 20 May 2024 (UTC)