Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums

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Album sales information

Where do editors get their album sales information? Is there any one reliable source? — Sam 17:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Surely someone here knows of a reliable source? — Sam 22:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You have my sympathies. It's depressing that we can't mobilize our resources and compile a list of reliable (official or printed) sources for delicate information like sales and chart placings. It's especially hard to find information for albums and singles from before the late 1990s, and non-US/UK information. Punctured Bicycle 00:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Missing infobox cleanup?

I've been looking again at missing categories on album articles (partly with a view to whacking down the size of the likes of Category:2000s rock album stubs, but also obviously for their own sakes). Specifically, by-year and by-artist cats (with artist also being the means to genre ends). There's about 1000 articles missing by-years, and around 6500 missing by-artists. I could tag these for individual cleanup, but it might be more useful to do as was suggested earlier, and attempt to populate these by bot, from the infobox. Which in turns leads me to (bear with me, nearly there!) to the matter of albums with no infobox; or more precisely, articles with the WPJ template on their talk page, and no transclusion of {{Infobox Album}}. Of these, there are about 3000, though the causes look fairly motley: articles mistagged with the WPJ template, album-related articles that aren't actually albums, infoboxes coded by other means, such as raw tables, and who-know-what-else. As such, I'd hesitate to suggest auto-tagging these, unless it was done in some very carefully-hedged manner: perhaps the infobox parameter could be tweaked to allow might-need-its-infobox-looked-at and doesn't-need-an-infobox values, say. In any event, here's the list of such articles: User:Alai/album-infobox. Suggestions as to how to tackle them welcome. Alai 02:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Somewhat related to this, please see this bot request. If you've any objection to these being populated from the infoxes and nav templates (or voluble enthusiasm for it), please comment there. I'm sure this is in line with an earlier discussion here, though. Alai 04:55, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

3CD Box Set

I'm a little new in the area of articles on different kinds of albums, so I thought I would ask the question here. Is this article approriate? This doesn't seem to be an actual release, or is it? It seems to be just a box set of 3 albums and I don't think it deserves an article. Thoughts? — Moe 10:57, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, the redirect for 3CD Box Set is inappropriate. Such a page should redirect to the general box set, if anything, but it is misspelled, since there's no space between the 3 and the CD. Second, that is not the title of the release. As far as I can tell, the official title is Greatest Lovesongs Vol. 666/Razorblade Romance/Deep Shadows and Brilliant Highlights. The next question is whether it should have its own article at all. I think not (so feel free to nominate it for deletion). I would say it's probably notable enough to be mentioned in the individual album articles. -Freekee 04:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

General feedback

This has mainly come about because of the increasingly obvious fact that the output of AlexNewArtBot is growing by the day: as soon as it is processed for non-album articles, another raft of candidates appears before we can get down to the necessary on the ones it found 6 days ago. Couple this with the fact that I am now an admin and as such feel obliged to filter the band articles it spews up on a daily basis (at least ten or so per day) and delete the vanity non-notables (which quite frankly are an insult to all of us here who strive to write proper articles about bands and albums, and much as I like music, and there a few non-notables in my collection, there is a limit!) – we have a lot on our hands. If I attend to this on a regular basis, the album category summary suffers because it is not being used to deal with articles created months ago. One of Jogers' lists has album articles without infoboxes stretching to 2000+ at the moment. So, I am torn between the devil and the deep blue sea, to use a rather poetic cliche. Do I ignore ANABot and deal with the articles resident for some time that haven't been dealt with, or do I do away with the album category summary? Does anyone find it useful and use it? I know a few do, but it's nothing a few bookmarks can't deal with. Automating it would be an answer, but I tried that and nobody was interested, seemingly. Besides, I like to see the zeros, and would prefer to deal with them over looking at new stuff. I guess what I am saying is that my editing patterns may be changing soon (for the worse) and I would hate to think anyone (including myself) was thinking I was turning my back on this project. Feedback gratefully accepted. :) Bubba hotep 20:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• Is a CliffsNotes version of your monologue available? --Cheers, Folajimi (leave a note) 00:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure the CliffsNotes version would be compatible with the GNU license. :) Bubba hotep 10:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Aversion.com - spam?

Current aversion.com links The number of review links to Aversion.com seems to be increasing, and the links seem to be getting added by a few editors (example here) I'm guessing that this is a non-notable review site, since it doesn't even have a Wikipedia article, but I'm looking for some expert confimation before I clean the links out as spam. RJASE1 ^Talk 03:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

This is what they say about themselves, but "Aversion Media" on Google only gets 10 results. (A marketing and promotion company... make of that what you will.) –Unint 03:49, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

List of eponymous albums

Why does this list exist? Wouldn't it be better to have this as a category? The list goes somewhat unnoticed, but if it exists as a category, it's easier to add to the list. Plus, the fact that it's a list of eponyms, it's tautology to list the names twice. --linca^linca 01:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

The category's been deleted. Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 February 26#Category:Eponymous albums –Unint 04:54, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

If the category has been deleted, does it make sense to keep the list? Jogers (talk) 08:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd vote against keeping the list; aside from being misnamed (per Punctured Bicycle), it's just list-cruft. Given the number of bands and solo artists that release self-titled albums, it's clearly incomplete as it stands, would take a vast amount of work to make complete — and is pointless anyway. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 10:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that most of the articles in Category:Lists of albums could be done away with and replaced by categories. -MrFizyx 17:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I can see why the category was deleted, though; there are far too many of them, and this one seems as unnecessary as does the list. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 21:55, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the whole "list-cruft" reasoning. I mean, what purpose does a list of eponymous albums serve? Really?! -- Reaper X 04:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

• I've put it up for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of eponymous albums. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 11:56, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Eponymous vs. self-titled

While we're on this subject: I think we should adopt as a convention the use of self-titled over eponymous in articles, as per this reasoning. Punctured Bicycle 07:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

he's only half-right. both senses are acceptable per OED. tomasz. 17:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Which OED are you looking at? Mine—the online edition, which is supposedly comprehensive—says nothing about usage of eponymous with regard to albums. Punctured Bicycle 18:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

1998 hardback edit., Clarendon Press. although since i last posted i think i should qualify that the use referring to the album, book, etc. is a subsense. tomasz. 18:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

It's good enough for NME; indeed that's where I first encountered the word! --kingboyk 14:56, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

You'd model your use of language on that of music journalists? Gawd 'elp us. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 19:13, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

You might disagree with the opinions of music journalists, but you'd be hard-pushed to find fault with their use of language. tomasz. 10:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

This is WP:ALBUMS you know! :) --kingboyk 19:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't recall as clearly as Kbk the first time I heard it, but I've always known it as "eponymous" as well. It probably was the music press, come to think of it, but it is a term in quite widespread usage and Wikipedia definitely was not the first place I read it, so if we're wrong – everyone is! Bubba hotep 20:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[I first heard it on the cover of the R.E.M. album and I don't think they invented it.] -MrFizyx 05:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

But this is Wikipedia, where verifiability is more important than truth. So if most people agree that it the proper term, then around here it's right. ;-) What is that writer trying to say? It's not the ban's eponymous record, but the record's eponymous band? What a useless word! -Freekee 01:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better for y'all to spend time sourcing the eponym article? Why does it matter which adjective is chosen by editors? I might like to use "self-titled" and "eponymous" at different points in the same article. So what? -MrFizyx 05:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Our audience speaks various flavors of English and have various levels of comprehension of English. We should use language that is readily understood by as much of our audience as possible. Eponymous is pretentious and gives no hint to its meaning for those who have never seen it before, which is likely a sizable group considering the term is restricted to the popular music press. Self-titled, by contrast, is made up of simple words, so those who have never seen it before are likely to pick up its meaning quickly. As for the suggestion of using both in the same article, see elegant variation. Yes, this is a lot of discussion for one word, but there are more just like it—gig, for example, when concert is available. Perhaps we should make a usage guide for the project. Punctured Bicycle 06:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

no word is innately "pretentious", and as noted above, "eponymous" has been in use for absolutely years to describe albums – to the extent that, i'd wager, anyone interested in consulting an album-specific project would have an inkling what it meant. and if someone doesn't know what a word means, it's only a quick step to a physical or online dictionary. Failing that, we have a Simple English wikipedia too tomasz. 09:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

You sure you're not mistaking this for Simple Wikipedia? Warning to non-proficient English speakers: a dictionary may be required. --kingboyk 10:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, so I haven't actually used both in the same article, and I agree that "self-titled" is more clear and tend to use it more often (as in my article on Joe Ely). My point is that we should not unreasonably place restraints on editors' language. I see this as a non-issue. When someone reads the word "eponymous" in the first sentance of the article on Lyle Lovett they are likely to get the meaning from the context even if they have never heard the word previously. If they don't, they can follow the link and read the eponym article which gives a full explanation. I don't see the need to target the lowest common denominator at all times. I suppose our prose would not suffer greatly if we stuck to things like "second album" instead of "sophomore release", but I don't see the need for tying editors hands given the state of most album articles. Almost any content is good content compared to a track listing and an info box. -MrFizyx 19:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Sophomore is an alien word to us British types, so whilst I have no objection to you folks using it (isn't that big of me?! ;)) please not in articles about British albums :) --kingboyk 20:06, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not alien, just that it has fallen out of common usage in British English, so to British ears sounds quaint and old-fashioned, in the way some French-Canadian expressions might be to the French.Ricadus 20:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I daresay you're right, although it doesn't sound old-fashioned to me, just... foreign. Anyway, never mind, we digress, and I'm pretty sure "sophomore" has been discussed here before. Thanks for pointing that out. --kingboyk 20:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

If suggesting that editors use clear, plain language whenever possible is an unreasonable restraint, then all the conventions listed on the project page are unreasonable restraints. By the same reasoning we should delete all guidelines and style manuals, allowing the editor to run wild. Ignore the cost to the reader; most people don't mind random visits to the dictionary to decode obscure jargon (never mind that many dictionaries don't even contain eponymous in the relevant sense). Of course, our largest common denominator will not have any problem to begin with, as most of the English-speaking world reads Mojo and Q. Right. Punctured Bicycle 04:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

If they're into albums past, then possibly they do. If not, they look up the word once and will know what it means in the future too. It's called learning. --kingboyk 11:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I take it you have no problem with the sentence "The KLF absolved their collation of aural transcriptions Chill Out in the year of the Metal Horse," then. Punctured Bicycle 21:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

the problem with that is it's a deliberate attempt to be unclear about a whole sentence to make a point, as oppose to a take-or-leave-it choice regarding one usage. tomasz. 10:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

There's no problem. Anyone can look up the words. It's called learning. Punctured Bicycle 20:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

"By the same reasoning we should delete all guidelines and style manuals, allowing the editor to run wild." i believe this is called "reductio ad absurdum" tomasz. 12:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Correct. Punctured Bicycle 21:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

that isn't a point in your favour, you know. tomasz. 10:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Reductio ad absurdum is a common form of argument. If you want to make a point that isn't in my favor, you'll need to say more. Punctured Bicycle 20:11, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

LP album

I have proposed that LP album be moved to LP. Please see Talk:LP_album#Requested_move. --kingboyk 12:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

debut album

I have just noticed that Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Debut album resulted in a deletion and a redirect to album. This seems inadequate for anyone seeking the meaning of "debut" from the many articles linked there. Anyone care to suggest a better redirect? Is it worthy of a deletion review? Or should we just force everyone to say "first album" from now on? :-) -MrFizyx 20:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't a dictionary. Perhaps a link to wiktionary:debut might be in order if you think there are readers who don't know what "debut" means? --kingboyk 20:31, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Isn't "debut" just a plain English word? Jogers (talk) 20:35, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Sort-of. Derived from the french, debutante, but not retaining any of that meaning in the context of albums. I'd be fine with a wiktionary link or someone fixing/removing links. -MrFizyx 20:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

"First album" is plainer English, and should be preferred to the jargony "debut album". (I know, in music journalism, people don't produce first and second albums but "debut" and "sophomore" albums; no-one writes anything, they "pen" and "author" things; records don't enter the charts, they "hit" the charts, people don't refer to or critically discuss things, they "reference" and "critique" them, etc. O tempora, o mores...) --Mel Etitis (Talk) 21:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we should have a music-journalese patrol task force. –Unint 22:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think we should "outlaw" the use of debut album... It's a term commonly used in that context, and we aren't the Simple English Wikipedia. --Fritz Saalfeld (Talk) 11:16, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

"debut", "jargony"? jesus wept. tomasz. 10:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

All fine and dandy points. I brought it up here because the deletion ignored "what links here", which includes 1000+ articles that probably should not redirect to an article without the word "debut" in it. [Boy some people are so opposed to snobbery that they're almost snobs about it. :-)] -MrFizyx 03:25, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I could easily remove these links with my bot. Do you think it's a good idea? Jogers (talk) 11:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Remove them altogether do you mean? Hmm... Perhaps we could be a bit smarter than that, perhaps we could remove all links to debut album and debut album (note 2 words, seperate links; a list of articles pointing to both pages can be easily made in AWB)? Also, the process should always leave behind one link to album. I'm just a bit concerned that only removing debut album without ensuring there's a link to album would result in some articles not having a link at all. --kingboyk 11:28, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Should there really always be a link to album? Sounds like another common English word. Most album articles should already have a link to studio album, compilation album etc. in the infobox (which reminds by of User:Jogers/List3, by the way). Jogers (talk) 11:39, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

They probably ought to have a link to one of those, yes. Consider my proposal amended :P --kingboyk 11:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC) (e/c)

Sounds good to me. -MrFizyx 13:40, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Alternatively, one could write an actual article rather than a dictionary def. One could discuss special awards such as the Grammy Award for Best New Artist and note albums that frequently appear on lists of best debut albums. Possible sources:

• "Fab Firsts: The Top 25 debut albums in rock history", Post-Gazette, Pittsburgh, PA, March 3, 2002
• "100 Greatest Debut Albums", Uncut, August 2006
• "The NME's 20 near-as-dam-it Perfect initial efforts", NME February 22, 1992
• Brett Alan, (ed.), "100 Greatest Rock Debut Albums", DigitalDreamdoor.com

Useful? -MrFizyx 20:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Not to my mind, no. Interesting? Undoubtedly. Encyclopedic? You haven't convinced me (yet). --kingboyk 21:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

My own apprehension is that even if one were to do a "good job," the article would become a taget for editors looking for a place to put links to that article they just wrote on artist X's first album. Turn the bots loose then I suppose. -MrFizyx 21:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, I requested for bot approval. Jogers (talk) 08:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Am I still allowed to say that Album X is the debut album from Artist X" in the body of the article? I actually think the word debut is pretty well established in the english language and I do like to use it instead of first. Thanks Solonyc (talk} 21:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are :-) Jogers (talk) 21:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Me too, and yes, you may use your editorial discretion :) All this bot job is doing is removing the link. --kingboyk 21:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, it got a little confusing. I have not been on here much lately so I come back and people are slamming a perfectly nice and orderly word. :) Take care Solonyc (talk} 21:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Compilation album categorization

Category:Compilation albums has been getting very bloated, so I've created some new subcategories as a start to cleaning it up: Category:Compilation album series branded by bars and cafés‎, Category:Radio station compilation album series, and Category:Record label compilation albums. So, this is just a note to populate as necessary.

In addition, far too many greatest hits albums have been placed here instead of Category:Greatest hits albums.

I'm also considering other archetypes to categorize by, and what to call the categories. "Top of the charts" compilations? Regional music compilations? Compilations by country of release? (There are a disproportionate number of albums from New Zealand...) Genre compilations? Compilations of particular recording sessions? –Unint 20:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to think of category names to distinguish albums released under the brands of music-related bodies (magazines, TV stations, festivals, retailers) from those released under brand names of unrelated bodies (non-music magazines / retailers, bars and cafés, etc). Any suggestions? –Unint 20:33, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Catalog numbers in infobox

I had put in a request on the infobox template talk page to have the catalog number included. The response I got was rather puzzling: "...the general feeling was that it wouldn't be a good idea to put them in the infobox because, really, it should only have the original release details in there, with further releases discussed/listed in the article body." It seems that the catalog number is part of "the original release details" and so I can't figure out what Bubba hotep had in mind there. Anyway, he referred me to this page to discuss it.

The current infobox has a space for "label" but not for "catalog number." To me they are really both of the same order of interest. If one is interested in the fact that You're My Thrill was released by Columbia, I think that it was released under catalog number CL-6071 is of equal interest. I can't see why one is significant and the other not. -- BRG 18:29, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, although it might get a little messy cataloging every album page on Wikipedia. Inevitably, some will have catalogue numbers and some won't.--Drewcifer3000 19:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that for almost any field one can say "some will have and some won't." Even in the specific area I've been concentrating on (Doris Day albums), for example, some have recording dates in the info I can track down and some don't. -- BRG 16:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

This has been brought up before and will again I'm sure. I actually do put the cat number in the infobox. I use the "break" command after the label name and put in the number. I think it looks good but I would like an optional field for it too. To me the first commercial release is the one that should be in the infobox and the year, cover, label, cat number and etc that correspond to it should be there for it. I only add other releases if there is a significant difference between versions. To me that difference is typically an extra track or tracks, an extra disc of tracks, deleted tracks or some other major change to the songs of the album. Typically you can put the new cat number and (if needed) label in the track listing section like I did here Eyewitness. In practice most albums have only one or two different releases that fit my criteria.

Note that for alternative or extra covers I do not refer to the cat number because covers are usually used over many different releases and labels it would get too messy. If you just have so many versions that are notable and need to be mentioned than something like this Let It Be put in the article body is probably the best bet. Take care Solonyc (talk} 21:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Pictures in chronology

Lately, I've been seeing this more: putting album cover images in the chronology (the previous/next album) of the infobox. I've been removing them, because as I understand it, that is going a bit far on the fair use of those images. I just wanted to come here and verify that I am doing the right thing. -Joltman 12:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

That should be the way to go; those little images add bugger-all anyway. Cheers, Ian Rose 12:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposed language change for track listing credits

I'd like to propose the following changes be made to the current language about track listing credits. I'd like to change:

If all songs were written by the same person/team, this can be stated at the top as in "(all songs written by Gordon Gano)"

to:

If all songs were written by the same person/team, this can be stated at the top as "All songs written by Gordon Gano." If the majority of the songs were written by the same person, this can be stated as "All songs written by Gordon Gano, except where noted."

I believe this better reflects current practice (and looks better). Any objections? --PEJL 16:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

sounds good to me. Violask81976 18:32, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

No objection here, thats exactly what I've been doing. -MrFizyx 18:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I have been doing the same. Two grammar questions. Is the comma after the persons name needed or can it just be a straight sentence? "All songs written by Gordon Gano except where noted." Also I have had people edit this sentence by putting a ":" at the end on the sentence. "All songs written by Gordon Gano except where noted:" Is that correct grammar also. I know this is a minor point but I am wondering which is right or looks better. I can go either way...lol. Solonyc (talk} 19:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

How to change the project page

I am curious as to how do changes to the project page happen? Is it just up to administrators or editors? Do we vote on it? Stage a coup? :)

I have some issues with some things on there that I would like to change (like track listing format) and I am wondering how to go about it. I know we say it is just a guideline but I find that too many newer members give it sacred status, though honestly I can see a need for certain sections being the same in format from page to page.

If there is a set policy for how changes are made perhaps it should be stated on the project page to avoid this question in the future. Thanks Solonyc (talk} 19:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)