Talk:Brandon Teena

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Am I missing something?

Noticing the recent flurry of activity on the article, I still don't see any scholarly citations supporting the use of pronouns reflected in this article. I recognize that some editors who are watching this page have very strong opinions about the appropriate gender of pronouns to implement here but opinions alone, no matter how strongly asserted, are nothing more than original research, which according to WP policy is not acceptable for article content. Moreover, WP policy regarding self-identification seems strictly limited to the user space. Am I missing seeing the citations which support this usage? I need help here: Since I am unaware of any shred of evidence that there is scholarly, peer-reviewed support for this usage, please accept this as a respectful request for acceptable citations (even from DSM) which would support the use of applying male pronouns to the murder victim described in this article. Thank you. Gwen Gale 06:42, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

{{POV-check}}

It seems there are differing opinions of the proper pronoun for Brandon Teena. Though these are opinions (and therefore objective), many of the people on the talk page continually consider themselves to be absolutely accurate. According to the "ethical" definition, Brandon Teena should be called a man and therefore referred to as a "he" but according to the "scientific" definition of a man Teena should be referred to as a she, especially considering Brandon Teena does not match any of the qualifications (which would make the gender ambiguous) specified by Dysprosia (and therefore has no medical defintion as a man). I'm not supportive of either side of the debate; I merely care about the encyclopedic nature of Wikipedia that is clearly not being met here. Wikipedia is not here to discuss "feelings" and while it may be socially and morally unacceptable to address a transgendered person as anything other than what they wish to be adressed as, it is still necessary to remain entirely objective, and feelings are certainly difficult to objectively discuss.(71.234.63.192 22:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC))

Opinions are subjective, not objective. Thankfully, we have the WP Manual of Style which is very clear:

"Where known, use terminology that subjects use for themselves (self-identification). This can mean using the term an individual uses for himself or herself, or using the term a group most widely uses for itself. This includes referring to transgender individuals according to the names and pronouns they use to identify themselves." [1] (emphasis mine)

This is an old and haggard topic. Gwen, you're not getting anywhere with your talk of original research. Identifying transgender individuals by their chosen pronoun is policy, as the WP Manual of Style makes abundantly clear. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

If it's WP policy then, it appears to be otherwise wholly unsupported and in conclict with other WP policy against OR, since I'm unaware of any scholarly or peer-reviewed citations which could support the use of personal pronouns asserted in this article.

Meanwhile, could you please provide a scholarly source which confirms the murder victim self-identified with male personal pronouns? Gwen Gale 06:10, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

If someday that becomes the requirement, I'll consider devoting a moment to your request. In the meantime, WP policy is clear and OR is clearly not the issue. Feel free to bring your opinion that the two policies conflict to the appropriate policy pages - because the article on a murdered transsexual isn't the forum. Good luck in your efforts to resolve what you see as a policy conflict on the appropriate policy pages (I'd start with the Style and OR pages), but be aware that your views may be likely to be seen by others as a smokescreen for transphobia and you should make a concerted effort to address those potential concerns if your goal is to improve, and not to disrupt, Wikipedia. Good day to you. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

That's not what I asked. Please provide a scholarly source which confirms the murder victim self-identified with male personal pronouns. Thank you. Gwen Gale 06:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Not required. She changed her name when she began identifying as male. From the BBC, for example: "But Brandon's mother JoAnn is campaigning for justice for her child, who was born Teena Brandon but flipped her names when she started living as a boy." Good night. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:27, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, I believe you're mistaken. This extraordinary use of male personal pronouns requires documented support. Please provide a scholarly source which confirms the murder victim self-identified with male personal pronouns.

Your kind warning that I might be opening myself up to accusations of transphopia is appreciated as well-meant but ultimately, I think it's unhelpful. Moreover, it's serious a violation of WP policy to speculate on my motives. Hence, I respectfully ask you to refrain from making such references and comments in your edits here, thanks. Meanwhile, I'm aware you seem to be extremely sensitive about this topic. No worries, I wholly respect your PoV. I mean, all the way. My only care is the encyclopedic content and tone of the article. Gwen Gale 06:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

' This extraordinary use of male personal pronouns requires documented support.'? That support has been provided to you on multiple occasions. I did not speculate on your motives (you just commented on my 'sensitivity', which is rather uncivil. Your argument is sputtering, and even within one post is self-contradictory. Again, go fight your policy battle in the right forum and don't use the page of a murdered transsexual to explore your concerns about contradictory policy with contradictory arguments. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 06:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The support provided in the past was from highly specialized advocacy sites. I'm not fighting WP policy at all. Please stick to the topic. I'm asking for a scholarly citation supporting the article's implicit assertion that Brandon Teena self-identified with male personal pronouns. Gwen Gale 06:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Even if what Ryan said was wrong, this is a biographical article, and a "scholarly citation" is not required to prove an issues of fact - something such as a newspaper article will do just fine. Brandon Teena was very widely referred to as "he" in the press at that time, because, like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. Thus we do similarly. Rebecca 06:55, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Did I say something wrong? Let me know and I'll be sure to learn from my error. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 07:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

All I've seen here have been references on advocacy sites. Could you please point me to some newspaper or wire articles which support your statement Brandon Teena was very widely referred to as "he" in the press at that time. I would also appreciate seeing a few citations supporting your assertion that like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. Thanks. Gwen Gale 07:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

'Self-identification' is the standard on Wikipedia, not 'scholarly and specific proof an individual used certain specific pronouns'. Personally I find it incredible that you can accept that Brandon Teena used a male name and identified as male and DIDN'T use male pronouns. I think you'd need to prove your POV, not demand speciifc scholarly proof about the specific question of pronoun usage. -- 07:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Please stop trying to deflect this discussion away from the requested citaions which so far, don't seem to be forthcoming. Only for clarity, I'll repeat my request. I would like citations (for the first they don't even have to be scholarly, multiple mainstream press and wire publications will do) supporting the following two assertions:

• Brandon Teena was very widely referred to as "he" in the press at that time
• like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style

Thanks again... and cheers! Gwen Gale 07:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Not gonna happen, least not from me. Citations for those assertions (what the press does) are not required to validate the current policy of using a transgendered person's self-identification as the deciding factor regarding pronouns. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 07:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Following that, I take it you reject Rebecca's use of the press as a posible means of support for the use of these pronouns? Likewise her assertion that the manuals of style used by these organizations would support this use? I mean, I want to confirm my take on your input, that the only support you're asserting here is Wikipedia policy regarding self-identification? Thanks for your patience btw. Gwen Gale 07:42, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Rebecca's opinions are her own. I stand by my own words and no-one else's. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 07:44, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

That's cool. Given that you're citing WP policy regarding self-identification, please provide a scholarly citation supporting the article's implicit assertion that Brandon Teena self-identified with male personal pronouns. Alternately (and reasonably put) I think a scholarly citation supporting an assertion that Brandon consistently identified as a "transgendered male" will do. I understand how potentially sensitive this discussion is. My only concern is encyclopedic and my support of WP policy is a given. Meanwhile I've only ever seen unsupported assertions along these lines on advocacy sites and personal webpages. Gwen Gale 07:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Not required. He identified as male and you'll have to provide proof he didn't. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 07:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

You're making the assertion, not me. Gwen Gale 08:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

We should probably stop feeding the troll, anyway. A look at Gale's contributions reveals a lot of this sort of bizarre dispute-starting. Rebecca 08:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Please provide some diffs to support that assertion, thanks. Gwen Gale 08:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Goodnight Gale. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 08:03, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

We have some troubling Wikipedia policy violations here:

• Rebecca has engaged in a personal attack by calling me a troll. Not only is this a policy issue, it focuses the discussion away from my reasonable requests for acceptable citations.

• User:RyanFreisling and Rebecca refuse to provide the requested citations.

So far, the use of male personal pronouns on the article appears to be unsupported, but retained in the article only by aggressive baiting and other threatening edits by two or more users. There may indeed be scholarly support for the use of male personal pronouns in this article, but it's not cited. Never mind you guys are calling me a troll and a transphobe or whatever, I utterly understand how you might misinterpret my questions and requests concerning such a sensitive and emotional topic. I support Wikipedia policy and accordingly would like to see some acceptable citations backing up these assertions. Gwen Gale 08:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

As I said, here's one from the BBC: "But Brandon's mother JoAnn is campaigning for justice for her child, who was born Teena Brandon but flipped her names when she started living as a boy." and "Brandon, 21, had lived as a boy for several years, strapping her breasts down, wearing men's clothes and padding her underwear with socks. She was also dating a woman, Lana Tisdale, who initially believed she was a boy but remained with her when she discovered the truth. Six days before she died Brandon was attacked and raped by Lotter and Nissen, who had recently found out she was actually a girl." [2] Brandon Teena was living as a man when he was murdered. QED. WP policy dictates we use male pronouns. Now stop it. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 08:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

User:RyanFreisling, thanks for that. It's a start. My first concern is that this news article doesn't refer to Brandon with male personal pronouns (it refers to Brandon as "she"). If anything, I think this supports changing the pronoun usage in the Wikipedia article (although I'm aware you choose to derive support strictly through your interpretation of the self-identification element of WP policy and I respect that).

As I said before, there may indeed be scholarly support for the assertion that Brandon self identified as a male transexual but while this BBC article uses the phrase "lived as a boy," while similar, that's not the same thing as "male transexual," nor is the BBC article a scholarly, peer reviewed journal. I know this seems to annoy you and I'm not happy about being a part of that. Meanwhile, I think the BBC article you've cited wholly supports changing the implementation of personal pronouns in the article. I would add that it at least supports the notion that such a change would not be considered vandalism and that the use of that term in revert headers is inappropriate. Gwen Gale 08:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

After having it explained to you a half-dozen times, I believe you now should know that press-identification is not the standard - self-identification is. The BBC citation (as well as many others) makes clear Brandon Teena's SELF-identification, and that's enough for WP. The pronouns THE PRESS employs are irrelevant. Your argument is specious, and yet you ignore the arguments of others. Honestly, Gwen, a reasonable person could at this point perceive your conduct as tendentious and your intention to be trolling. Please don't provide any more evidence to support that view. Last, have a great day.-- User:RyanFreisling @ 21:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Rebecca's news cites

"...killed in a farmhouse, along with two witnesses, because he reported being raped by Lotter...", "Chicago woman to wed inmate portrayed in movie 'Boys Don't Cry'", AP, 19 March 2006

"...was raped before he was brutally murdered by his male friends..." "Prisoners of Gender", Hindustan Times, 12 November 2005

"When his secret was discovered, Teena was raped and murdered by former friends." "A poignant case of hidden gender", Daily Telegraph, 17 April 2004

"... raped and killed in Nebraska 10 years ago after two male acquaintances found out that although he lived as a man", "Three go on trial in transgender hate crime case", Houston Chronicle, 15 March 2004

"...raped and later murdered by two men after they discovered he wasn't born a man.", "Killing helped advance transgender rights", The Columbian, 1 January 2004

"...raped and later murdered by two men after they discovered he wasn't born a man." "Community remembers tragedy that inspired 'Boys Don't Cry' Killing spurred activism among transgendered", Charleston Gazette, 29 December 2003

"Prosecutors said he was killed in a farmhouse on New Year's Eve 1993", "Death row inmate loses appeal for DNA testing", AP, 27 September 2003

"...did not surgically transition to male but successfully passed for a long time preceding his death...", "Sex and Sensibility", The Washington Post, 10 November 2002

I think the onus is on you to find sources for your claims. Rebecca 09:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not making any claims. You are making the claims. I've looked into the citations you provided and so far, have found the following:

• "...killed in a farmhouse, along with two witnesses, because he reported being raped by Lotter...", "Chicago woman to wed inmate portrayed in movie 'Boys Don't Cry'", AP, 19 March 2006

This Googles on three personal blogs but I can't find any confirmation it's a genuine AP quote. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• "...was raped before he was brutally murdered by his male friends..." "Prisoners of Gender", Hindustan Times, 12 November 2005

This seems to appear on a single Indian website. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• "When his secret was discovered, Teena was raped and murdered by former friends." "A poignant case of hidden gender", Daily Telegraph, 17 April 2004

This doesn't Google at all. Unverified. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• "... raped and killed in Nebraska 10 years ago after two male acquaintances found out that although he lived as a man", "Three go on trial in transgender hate crime case", Houston Chronicle, 15 March 2004

This doesn't Google at all. Unverified. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• "...raped and later murdered by two men after they discovered he wasn't born a man.", "Killing helped advance transgender rights", The Columbian, 1 January 2004

This Googles to a single blog. Unverified Gwen Gale 10:05, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• "...raped and later murdered by two men after they discovered he wasn't born a man." "Community remembers tragedy that inspired 'Boys Don't Cry' Killing spurred activism among transgendered", Charleston Gazette, 29 December 2003

This Googles to a CNN article and some personal sites that copied it. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• "Prosecutors said he was killed in a farmhouse on New Year's Eve 1993", "Death row inmate loses appeal for DNA testing", AP, 27 September 2003

This Googles to a single personal/advocacy blog but I can't find any confirmation it's a genuine AP quote. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• "...did not surgically transition to male but successfully passed for a long time preceding his death...", "Sex and Sensibility", The Washington Post, 10 November 2002

This Googles to a single advocacy site but I can't find any confirmation that it's a genuine Washington Post quote. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Most of your citations don't verify to the cited source, but to personal blogs and advocacy sites (or not at all). So far your assertion that Brandon Teena was very widely referred to as "he" in the press at that time seems to be unsupported.

Moreover, you have not yet responded to my request for citations supporting your assertion that like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. Gwen Gale 09:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice try. No, they do not verify to personal blogs and advocacy sites. They verify to Factiva, the massive Dow Jones-run database of most newspaper articles from virtually all major newspapers in the last three decades. The vast majority of newspaper articles are, if they are put online at all, taken down by most newspapers, which should be strikingly obvious to anyone who has even attempted basic research online, which is why they are not in Google.

Should you choose to actually go to a library and check Factiva (should you not have access yourself), or, god forbid, check the newspapers themselves (since I have provided enough information for you to do so), feel free. In my search, I found virtually no references to Brandon Teena as "she" in the past five years (since the AP changed its manual of style, and the vast majority of others followed suit). I have provided the proof; it is now up to you to actually provide any evidence of your claims that any reputable source (let alone the majority of them) continues to refer to Brandon Teena as "she". Rebecca 10:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

• Most AP articles linger on at least a few scattered and sundry sites licensed to carry them for years on end. There should be more evidence of their existence on the open web.
• If you haven't seen Brandon referred to as a she, I can only offer the following quick and unscientific spot check:

First ten hits for "Brandon Teena" on Google (These can change depending on what server one gets)

Crime Library refers to BT as a she.

In this interview Teena's mother refers to BT as a she.

JusticeJunction refers to BT as a she.

The first review at imdb refers to BT as a she.

GLBTQ, an advocacy site, refers to BT as a he.

An editorial review at Amazon.com refers to BT as a he.

The UBL site has an empty scrapper template for BT with no content.

This personal advocacy page contains both he and she references to BT.

Gender.org, an advocacy site, uses skilled (and in my humble opinion very acceptable) writing techniques to avoid the use of personal pronouns for BT altogether.

Afterellen.com, an advocacy site, refers to BT as a he.

Meanwhile your sarcasm and personal attacks are not helpful. Please stop that. Please support your assertion that like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. So far, I think I've at least demonstrated that referring to Brandon Teena as a she is not vandalsim, nor the act of a troll. Moreover, User:RyanFreisling has shown that the BBC referred to BT as a she. Gwen Gale 10:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I've pointed out that there were very few references to Brandon Teena as "she" in the English-language press in the last five years (since the AP changed their MOS), or at least not out of the millions of articles archived on Factiva. I've given you a sample from a wide variety of different, highly-reputable news sources. You've given me one article. I also find it amusing that the same person who was three hours ago insisting on "scholarly citations" is now relying on an IMDB review and two personal websites to try and back up her argument. Rebecca 11:15, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I have a number of concerns here:

• You have not at all supported your assertion that there are very few references to BT as a she in the English-language press and your assertions that you have done are troubling.

• Moreover, the cites you provided to support the use of he mostly don't verify at all, except mostly to advocacy sites. This doesn't at all match previous experiences I've had in successfully tracking down wire and print articles on the web. Yeah, this may bear further work on my part.

• Your subjective use of the term "highly reputable" is fraught with opportunities for PoV, intimidation, misunderstanding and unsupported assertion.

• I haven't given you any articles at all. User:RyanFreisling provided the article in response to a request I made.

• I specifically characterized the Google spot check as unscientific and provided it to you only as a courtesy, to show you that BT is indeed referred to as a she in the mainstream. I'd never use a personal website to support any edit I might make to an article (and I don't think I ever have). Please don't conflate my good faith attempt to quickly show you some casual pronoun usage with my request that you provide scholarly, peer reviewed support for the use of male personal pronouns in the article.

• As an aside though, and an important one, I do assert that referring to the murder victim as a she is neither trollish, transphobic, nor vandalism, as demonstrated by the BBC article cited by User:RyanFreisling and the interview with BT's mother which appears on the commercial site in the Google list (yes, I'm finally "giving" you a single article, but only to support this, my only direct assertion so far).

• Please support your assertion that like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. Gwen Gale 11:30, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I have given you plenty of sources for Brandon Teena being referred to as "he" in a variety of highly reputable mainstream media, and I have given you enough information to verify this on your own, whether by Factiva itself or by checking newspaper archives. I have pointed out that I found very, very few sources that referred to him as "she", which you are welcome to also verify by Factiva. If your "successful experience in tracking down articles" involves whacking a few words into Google, I suggest you get some more experience. Nearly all of the "mainstream" sources you referred to referred to him as he; only an IMDB review and two personal websites referred otherwise. This is not verifiable evidence in the slightest. I've indulged you and provided sources to counter your claims; you have not provided the slightest evidence to back up your own. If you want anyone to take you seriously, you'll have to abide by our basic standards of verifiability. Rebecca 11:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I haven't referred to any mainstream sources but one! Are you carefully reading my posts or what? Anyway, here is a list of five raw URLs to either mainstream commercial media or educational sites (one additional personal page at an edu is included because it looks reliable) which refer to BT as a she:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-47345400.html
http://net.unl.edu/swi/pers/tbrandon.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3219591.stm
http://www.jour.unr.edu/outpost/entertainment/ent.alian.boysdontcry.html
http://www.yaleherald.com/archive/xxix/2000.01.14/ae/p18dontcry.html
http://archive.salon.com/ent/col/srag/2000/03/09/peirce/index.html

It is clear that both pronoun usages occur in what you would call "highly reputable" MSM sources. What I'd like to see is scholarly support for the use of a male pronoun. Gwen Gale 12:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and I'd still like to see some support for your assertion that like Wikipedia, the vast majority of the reputable press has similar points in their manuals of style. Gwen Gale 12:12, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The first link refers to an AP story before they changed their MOS in late 2001, so that isn't particularly relevant these days. The second has quotes from a lot of biased parties, with both used about equally. The third was quoted above. The fourth is a movie review from some random university student website, and hardly very reliable. The fifth is a movie review from a student newspaper. And the sixth is an opinion piece on a website. You are trying to claim that this article should use female pronouns, yet so far you've been able to come up with all of one instance of that usage in a reputable source. Until you actually provide some sort of reputable evidence to back up your claims (beyond citing random websites you found in Google), then I think we're wasting our time here. Rebecca 12:18, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

First, you're mistaken about those links. The first is a copy of an Associated Press article referring to BT as a she. The second is a personal page at an edu site which I threw in only because it seems well-written. The third is a BBC article referring to BT as a she. The fourth is a University of Nevada Outpost movie review. The fifth is a Yale Herald article and the sixth is Salon. "one instance of that usage in a reputable source"? Hardly. My only purpose in citing these particular examples is to support my assertion that referring to BT as a she is neither trollish, nor transphobic, nor vandalistic. By the bye her mother refers to her as a she, as referenced above. Please stop misrepresenting the content of my posts, thanks. Gwen Gale 14:29, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Anyway... "Claims"? Sorry, you're clearly not reading my posts (maybe skimming though, then glancing at the links but only to find stuff to criticize or whatever). Please support the article's use of male pronouns with scholarly citations. You have not done so. Gwen Gale 13:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

"Girls Don't Cry"

There's a question whether the Pet Shop Boys song is really inspired by the movie. The citation I managed to locate is here, in what seems to be a fansite of some sort. The site attributes the information to the PSB official site, which is flash-based and therefore not very searcheable or linkable. I googled part of the quote he provides, and I can't find another source for it. Quite a few people seem to believe the song is about BT, but a solid citation from the songwriters would be preferable. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 17:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Try this hard string search on Google, 75 hits with only the 3 specific text strings within the quotes, "Brandon Teena" "Pet Shop Boys" and "Girls Don't Cry" although some of those listed are but mirrors of this article. Gwen Gale 17:20, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of citations

I would like to respectfully point out that the article cites this BBC article as support that Brandon was transsexual. The article refers to her as "she" and as a "girl." I don't agree with the usage of pronouns in the Wikipedia article. However, as I've said previously I have no wish to edit war over it and will not, but only would like to remind that pronoun usage in no way defines trollish or vandalistic behaviour in the context of this article. Thanks for listening. Gwen Gale 11:01, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

In and of itself, no - but repeating your fallacious argument over and over again (is it a dozen times now?) on an article about a transgendered murder victim could easily be interpreted that way by some editors.

If you're wiling to leave the issue alone, then do so already. Stop repeating your tired and erroneous claim that the usage of pronouns in the press should determine WP pronoun usage rather than the WP policies regarding self-identification. Feel free to take your argument to the WP policy area governing pronoun usage. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Please review WP:No personal attacks and WP:Civil, thanks. Gwen Gale 15:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

My comments were neither uncivil nor a personal attack. Don't throw those around so flippantly. If you have valid complaints, you know where to raise them. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Editors who bring up this issue on this talk page are not trolls or vandals, which is all I have to say here. I suggest you think long and hard before carrying on with your personal attacks and uncivil behaviour towards my good faith, citation-supported comments on this talk page. Please drop it and I'll drop it. Thanks. Gwen Gale 15:17, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see my comment above. I trust you realize that ongoing, persistent attempts to ignore WP pronoun usage policy on a BIO page of a murdered transsexual (rather than dealing with the policy issue on the relevant page) is a bad idea. Such conduct only erodes any validity an editor's argument might have had. If you're not interested in disrupting WP, you should choose another forum to resolve the policy question.

Since you started the thread, I hope you'll not require the last word - as I'm happily dropping the issue here, with this response - if you want to make constructive improvements, you might want to stop using a BIO of a transsexual murder victim to debate WP pronoun usage for transsexuals. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I support WP policy, am sensitive to the article's content and have no wish to disrupt the article. Thanks for taking the time to reply. Gwen Gale 15:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I've decided to stop watching this article. I have too many worries of my own about arguing over murder-victim Teena Brandon's corpse (so to speak, anyway). This is a public wiki and since I edit here under WP policy I'm ok with the consensus of editors who disagree with me on the points I've raised. Thanks for listening and cheers to everyone :) Gwen Gale 14:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Help with References

Ok, so I tried cleaning up the referances a little bit because they were hard to accsess and understand... at least for me. Could someone work on them? I just made in worse >.< Eirra 18:24, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I reverted your repeated placement of the same link as overkill. As far as the changes to the content, my gut tells me that the prior version was superior, but I'll take a look when I can... --- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

K, thanks. Yeah, sorry. I basiccly found the infoprmation and put it in, but, yes I could have done a better job. Sorry. Anyways, the prior version was extremly short and undetialed. Eirra 17:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Tone

Indeed, with regards to content, caution should be exhibited. When content/context is added, we need to be careful to use encyclopedic language. The article is tending to read like a novelette. ZueJay (talk) 22:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry. Basiclly, I got the information put in, but it definetly does need some revising. Eirra 17:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Carolyn Gage's essay 'Unmaking of a Lesbian'

Is simply not notable enough to be encyclopedic on an article about Brandon Teena, and I've reverted the inclusion of the link by anon. Sorry, but it's my opinion (pretty strong opinion after a bit of research) that Gage's essay (posted on an unverifiable web site, no less) simply does not meet the standards to be cited as a valid source on WP, in terms of notability, undue weight, verifiability, etc. for starters. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 23:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree entirley. After reading the article, I find it unreliable (there were several statments that contradicted with other information that most sources agree on) and it seemed to come from a VERY biased and untrustworthy view. It seems someone has added it back, however. I'd rather not get into an edit war, but I do agree on this issue. Eirra 16:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I read parts of the essay, and it seems to be promoting an agenda rather than providing information about Brandon Teena's life and death. I think its strongly POV nature advises against including it in Wikipedia, unless in the context of an opinion of one of the transgender-related articles. In that sense the website (rather than the specific essay) is rather important, because it delineated a not-often-exposed reaction of the transgender identity. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 14:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree that the website is important, in and of itself... it is unverifiable (there is no identification of the organization involved) and non-notable (it does not appear to be well-known at all). The anti-transgender views of some radical feminists is well-known (Janice Raymond's book, for example) but this website is an anonymous set of essays and as such doesn't meet the level of reputability to serve as a source for WP... and of course incorporating the POV of such radical feminist condemnation to the bio page of a murdered transsexual is highly questionable. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 15:23, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I see your point. Clearly, I need to do more research into the subject. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 08:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Dropping random names

The article drops random names as if we are supposed to know who they are. Editing for proper introductions to people requested.

-- unsigned at 10:23, 28 March 2007 by

Thanks for pointing this out - there's a low-key edit war over the cited material that introduces these names. An IP editor who claims to have been there, but has not yet provided contradictory sources of information, keeps blanking the bit that intro's those names. ZueJay (talk) 14:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Did Brandon Teena date Lisa Lambert?

An anon keeps reverting the section stating that Brandon Teena had dated Lisa Lambert prior to the murders, citing personal experience. Needless to say, that's not sufficient for WP. The anon then put a link in to what appears to be a Dutch site, without apparent attribution or verifiability that did not appear to back up the assertion. In a few minutes of searching I found this:

(December 03, 1996) Marvin Thomas Nissen, serving a life sentence for the 1993 shooting deaths of Brandon Teena, his girlfriend Lisa Lambert, and friend Phillip DeVine, will try to convince the State Supreme Court in Nebraska this week that he deserves a new trial due to errors made by police and the judge. [3]

On 31 December, Nissen and Lotter went to the home of Brandon's girlfriend Lisa Lambert and killed her, Brandon and a friend of theirs, Philip Devine. [4]

If there is indeed a source to substantiate they were not dating, please provide it. I frankly don't care about this issue either way, but we need to reflect the verifiable facts of this case in the article, not anonymous accounts. Thoughts? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I am the anon you talk of and I am at a loss of how to provide proof of what is in my head. My ex is the former Carrie Gross, Lisa Lamberts roommate at the time of the murders. This is substantiated in both a book "All She Wanted", thru numerous articles on line, and several TV shows including A&E American Justice "The Life and Death of Teena Brandon" plus the doc "The Brandon Teena Story". If anyone would know the actual facts it would be Lisa Lamberts former roommate. She has stated that Brandon and Lisa were never an item and never dated. I have yet to see any truly verifiable source that says they were actually dating. As for me, I have a site on Yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Brandon93/ It is a member only site to keep out porn bots, so just ask and I will be more than happy to open the door for you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12:04, 31 March 2007 (talk • contribs) 63.215.29.115 (UTC)

Unfortunately WP isn't a news agency, and since your representation is also not a first hand account, but only hearsay ('my ex knew the victim'), I can't see how WP can accept your account as fact without verifiable, notable corroboration. Right now, GLAAD and other sources represent Lisa Lambert as Brandon's 'girlfriend', making the clear representation that they were 'a couple' at the time of the murders. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I am trying to understand your point. How is it GLAAD has information that is correct, when I knew the victim on a personal basis and mine is hearsay? My ex not only knew all 3 victims, she was living in the same house as all 3. How is it GLAAD knows more than any of us who were there? I am trying to understand what makes them a verifiable source of information over someone they never knew, and not a spinner of tall tails to advance their own agenda.

Here's the short version - I think it's clear WP cannot recognize you as a valid source of information for the following reasons: 1. you are an anonymous user claiming to have knowledge that contradicts a notable source's account of a public event. You need to establish your identity and credentials as a witness and provide your account in some other forum (because WP is an encyclopedia, not a news agency) or point to a notable, verifiable source that has already published an account that corroborates your view. If you have any more questions about your validity as a source for the article, I recommend you raise the issue on one of the administrators' pages, like WP:AN/I. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 00:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

No. No more questions. I am done with wiki. Thanks for checking out my web site to verify who I am. Good day.

personal attack deleted. It's all heresay. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.229.136.49 (talk) 21:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC).

personal attack deleted—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.119 (talk) 20:33, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

very confusing

i just started reading this article with no previous knowledge of this person and i found the article to be INCREDIBLY confusing.

i read the general info at the top of the page and then i went down to The Rape and it was really confusing. it uses the peoples' last names only with no indication of what their gender is [genders are?] as though i already know about these people. if i don't want to know about Brandon Teena and only want to read about the crime then i'm going to read the section called The Rape and not bother to read other sections to know about the people who raped her/him (another confusing part was Brandon/Teena's gender, i didn't figure that out until i read the discussion page)

so please make it more understandable for everyone. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.151.29.175 (talk) 00:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

I am as confused. Why is the term "Brandon Teena" used when this person never went by that name? Isn't that being disrespectful of the dead to call them something they never called themselves? Is this being done out of respect for this individual or to assist in an adjenda for a group using this person? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.58.0.232 (talk • contribs)

The citations make clear that he used the name Brandon to refer to himself, and on WP, the style guide dictates that we use 'self-identification' for transgendered individuals. There's no agenda. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 17:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

You said it yourself "he used the name Brandon to refer to himself". He went by Brandon, not Brandon Teena. Why is this article labeling him as Brandon Teena then? You are adopting a name placed on this person post life and not keeping with actual facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.58.0.232 (talk • contribs)

The citations clearly state that he used the name 'Brandon Teena', not just 'Brandon'. Just one offhand example: In his late teens, Teena began passing as a male and changed his name to Brandon Teena [5]. Your objection appears unfounded. Can you provide a citation (in other words, 'actual facts') to contradict these that says he didn't go by 'Brandon Teena', but only 'Brandon'? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 19:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Your citation is not a true reference source. Please show me one single citation that states anyone having actually known Brandon and him actually using the name "Brandon Teena". If there is a single verifiable source than I will concede the point. If not, then this page is being based on nothing more than hearsay and not facts. In the book "All she wanted" authored by A. Jones, the first work done about Brandon, not a single refrence is given to the term Brandon Teena. Not by family or friends.

'Not a true reference source'? The sources meet WP criteria in that they are notable, verifiable, not original research, etc. Any other requirements you might place above that are pretty irrelevant to the issue of proper WP sourcing. Actually having known Brandon is not required of a source. Please see WP:RS. Thanks! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

As a kindness, here's another source meeting WP:RS:

Brandon Teena was born a girl. Later Teena decided to change sexual identification, and began to pass as a young man by the name of Brandon Teena." JRank

I would suggest your claim that Brandon Teena didn't use the name 'Brandon Teena' needs to be cited, since it conflicts with numerous notable sources. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• Well, a cursory glance gives this, then there's this non-sympathetic article which states that Brandon used the name "Brandon Teena". It's also mentioned in the Amazon editorial review. As with these things, it's very hard to find some sort of primary, "official" source for something which was ostensibly a pseudonym. I think we can all agree, however, that the full name, "Brandon Teena" was in reasonably common usage by a number of people at the time and it was largely through the rape charge filed that Brandon was 'outed' - Alison^☺ 22:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Using that same logic, my niece wrote a paper years ago for Sunday School. Did you know the first elephant on Noah’s arc was named Ralph? By your standards this must be the truth since it was published in the church's bulletin. As I said once before, show me one instance where Brandon referred to himself as Brandon Teena. You can't, because he didn't. If he had his mother Joann would have mentioned it to Jones along with the long list of Alias names he did use. (Tena Ray, Billy Brenson, and Brandon) As for common usage, by whom? After he was dead perhaps. Now, as for the rape charge, look at the court documents on that. At the interview with Laux the official county record has a signature from Brandon. Anyone care to guess how it was signed?Are you going to dispute the very person we are talking about as to what name was being used? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs).

• I don't think it's fair to make a comparison between your niece's Sunday School paper and IMDB/Amazon/various newspapers/etc. As already pointed out, as a pseudonym, it's highly unlikely that there's a written example of his own usage, and requesting same is unfair. The court documents, of course, were signed, "Teena Brandon", which was his legal name. I don't see the point you're trying to make there - Alison^☺ 00:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The point I am trying to make is that these so called credible sources are not so credible. They are published on the web, but so are many other things that are not correct. My niece felt she was a credible source because she had heard her story in Sunday school. We all know what that story was worth, but to an 8 year old it was as good as gold. I am not trying to create hard feelings, but rather point out that something here is terrible wrong. Bad information is being distributed and touted as credible. And yet I have seen nothing that makes any of it truly credible. Thanks again for your time and patience. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs)

• I think the problem here is we have differing definitions on what constitutes "truly credible". I'm not entirely sure how "bad information" is being distributed, other than the possibility of major sources assuming the good faith of others. I think the weight of evidence that we have access to leans towards "Brandon Teena", given that the sources are reasonably credible and that it was not a legal name but a pseudonym which are, by their nature, somewhat hazy and undefinable. What would constitute "truly credible" in your book? - Alison^☺ 00:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

How can good faith be used as truly credible? Honestly, where do you draw the line? I can assure you those articles were written by people who knew less about Brandon than they did the man in the moon. I have seen this "Brandon Teena" name grow over the past 11 years. I know where it came from and it wasn't from Brandon. But then again, I too am not a credible source either. So what we do know for sure is Brandon did go by Brandon. On the hospital admit form in Falls City the name Tena Ray was originally written in and then changed to Teena. There are numerous court doc's with the names Billy Brenson and Tena Ray. But still no "Brandon Teena". So why is it being used as gospel here? You used IMDB as a source earlier, and yet the very documentary covered by IMDB is not allowed to be sited here. On A&E "American Justice" they say the name "Brandon Teena" was never known to have been used by Brandon. This is the same show with his mother and numerous friends and authors providing the very information being used. But I guess they too are not credible. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs).

Here: in addition to your 'American Justice' reference I found what appears to be another cite that claims the name was applied posthumously (Jared Hohlt of Slate):

"In the film--as in life--Brandon (who never used the last name Teena; he was called "Brandon Teena" only posthumously) had already been wooing young women as a man in his hometown of Lincoln before arriving in Falls City (population 5,000) in late 1993." [6]

So on the basis of these cites I wouldn't object to including something about this contradictory set of claims in the article. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs).

• Ok - I certainly agree that there's confusion over the name, esp. given that it was never his official 'legal' name. However, it's the one he's most known by and there's enough reputable publications out there that have used it. I agree that this should be noted in the article. I'm going to be bold and add a footnote to that effect, linked from the first mention of his name. Let me know what you think - Alison^☺ 03:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
• Ok - done. How does that read? - Alison^☺ 03:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Very nice, thank you again. I hope I have not created any hard feelings here.

Not at all, and likewise I hope I have not done the same. I am glad we could find reliable sources to back up your personal knowledge of this issue. Be well! -- User:RyanFreisling @ 04:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone continues to remove the note we all agreed upon. I have reverted it several time to get it back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.29.115 (talk • contribs)

• Indeed. Note that both of you need to watch for WP:3RR - Alison ☺ 06:29, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Uncited edits and anonymous editors

This article seems to have attracted a number of anon editors, some claiming personal knowledge of the article's subject, many of whom have little if any prior involvement with WP. One recent editor has has significantly added and modified content without explanation or factual citation, and that's a problem. Edits by single-issue or 'role' accounts are held to the same standards as everyone else, and personal knowledge is not valid encyclopedic sourcing - so PLEASE cite your edits with sources meeting WP:RS if you would prefer them not be reverted outright as unsupported claims. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I checked some research and have reverted a few pieces I couldn't corroborate with the known facts of the case. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

This whole article is a mess. It is poorly written and not very accurate. This is a subject I have been researching for a long time and am confident in saying that I know a lot about. I did site my source, and yet you replaced my well written statement with the mess that was there before. I have to wonder why I should spend the time in trying to correct it if you're just going to erase what I add. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Faytay2002 (talk • contribs)

• Hi there. Are you the same editor as 63.215.29.115 (talk · contribs) above? - Alison^☺ 03:04, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Alison- No I am not.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Faytay2002 (talk • contribs)

• Ah, okay. Just wondering 'coz you both say 'site' when you mean cite ... :) - Alison^☺ 03:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that.

While we are talking about changes, might I ask where the information (cite) was found for the murders? It describes things that could not be. For instance, they asked Lisa where Brandon was and then found him hiding under the bed. Lisa had a water bed that rested on the floor. There was no place under that bed to hide unless you were perhaps a greased B-B. This is personal knowledge and the murder scene photos and report will verify this as well. This report talks about the water bed being punctured by a bullet and the carpet being soaked with water and blood. What is written is inaccurate. For proper cite (thanks Alison) you may look up the closing arguments of the prosecution made during the murder trials. They talk at length about the water bed.User:Rocky

or this:

There was a slight body under the bottom of the waterbed blankets, and as quickly as Brandon was found, Brandon was killed. 

http://www.justicejunction.com/judicial_injustice_brandon_teena.htm

There is something wrong with wikipedia style guidelines

When we take a person who is (almost certainly) genetically female, with female external genitalia and call that person "he", it is simply confusing and wrong. That someone self describes as something does not make it valid or appropriate for an encyclopedia. There is a fellow in Memphis who has some fame and he declares he is an alien from another planet. But his declaration of that, would not make it reasonable for wikipedia to recognize that silly claim. This article highlights a problem with wikipedia policy. I could see it if there were an intersex problem. I could even see it with a person who had external genitalia that had the appearance of the claimed sex. But when neither of these is the case, this is just silly.--Blue Tie 06:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It's not silly at all, and it's not just Wikipedia -- it's standard usage when referring to transgendered people. See the AP Style Guide among other sources. Susan Davis 07:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It is silly in the context of describing his or her childhood before such a choice was made. I understand how the policy can be used to avoid being offensive to people like this particularly in the press, but in terms of a full life biography, something is not right here. It makes the article less clear and more confusing. --Blue Tie 08:21, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I think whatever 'confusion' the 'childhood' section is causing you can be addressed with editing, rather than challenging the clear guidelines of WP:STYLE by demanding the 'genital test' and/or equating transgendered individuals with aliens (each are highly offensive suggestions, by the way). When I re-read the first paragraph of the 'childhood' section to look for 'confusing' information, I couldn't find anything nearly meeting your 'unreasonable' or 'silly' attribution. It currently reads:

Brandon Teena was native to Lincoln, Nebraska. Born in 1972, Brandon has been described as a ‘tomboy’ as a child. He was sexually assaulted by a male relative when he was young and, according to his mother, JoAnn Brandon, she and Brandon sought counseling in 1991.

Are you really claiming that that single sentence 'highlights a problem with Wikipedia policy'? If so, I patently and vehemently disagree. Escalating this to a 'matter of policy' is at seems to me more than a mite excessive. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 13:41, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you 'think' you're 'using' enough 'scare quotes'?

I stand by my comments on this earlier: Blue Tie's objection is perfectly reasonable and completely misplaced. There's no question of whether we should follow Wikipedia style guidelines on a Wikipedia page. The question is whether the guideline itself is correct, and that's a discussion worth having, but this isn't the place. The place is -- oh, Blue Tie has already posted there. Okay then. ~ CZeke 14:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's try to stay 'on topic', shall we? See you over there. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Note: I have raised my concern on the Manual of Style Talk page. --Blue Tie 05:53, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The childhood issue is simply dismissed. Check out Vladimir Lenin. He wasn't "Lenin" as a child. We describe his father as "Lenin's father". Oh noes! Logical inconsistency has struck. His father died before he became Lenin, so couldn't ever have been "Lenin's father". Etc. Grace Note 00:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Name etc

We do not need a note about the name on this page, any more than we do on any other page. We also do not need to point out that "transsexual" (not transgendered, please see previous discussion and do not change this back) means that he was born "anatomically female". Those readers who do not know what "transsexual" means can follow the link and it will become clear to them. Grace Note 00:41, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The term "Brandon Teena" was something that appeared after Brandon was dead. He never used that as a name and it was invented at a later time.User:Rocky

According to note 2, it is perfectly correct to refer to Brandon as Teena. They use this as reference numerious times. Matzner, Andrew. Teena, Brandon (1972-1993). GLBTQ Encyclopedia. Accessed 14 March 2007. Please note this is an accepted source and shows that the term Brandon Teena is not the only accepted name used. "Teena's life and death eventually became the subject of two critically acclaimed films" "By 1993 Teena had been involved in a string of relationships with women who were unaware of his birth sex." "Soon after arriving in Falls City, Teena, still living as a man, began dating Lana Tisdel. Following habit, he once again financed his generosity by forging checks. In the middle of December, local police arrested Teena," This seems to make the "Brandon Teena" tag as something that should be changed. If the GLBTQ is refering to him as she then why are we doing different? Is it so hard to understand that Brandon was both and went from she to he and back to she? User:Rocky

It's not hard to understand but it makes for a shit encyclopaedia article. So does antitransexual POV pushing. Grace Note 05:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Anon, please provide a link to verify the pronoun usage you claim GLBTQ is using, so it can be verified. Note also that the usage other sources employ does not determine WP usage - we use self-identification. However, your example uses the male pronoun so I don't think it's much of an issue. Also, check again. I think you'll find 'Brandon, Teena' and the use of 'Teena' in your example refers to Teena as a last name and supports the name Brandon Teena (the comma is important). Also - please cite the 'went from she to he and back to she' thing you said, because that's not my understanding of Brandon Teena's life experience before he was murdered. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:22, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

"antitransexual POV pushing", Another way to get around the fact a fictional name was given to a real person, and some of us won't accept it. User:Rocky

I am not clear on the issue, but I think the solution is not so hard. It is appropriate that someone making a positive claim should validate it. Someone (I do not know who) is saying that a name being applied here did not actually exist. This is a negative claim and cannot be proven. But it serves as the basis for a request for verifiability. Can the use of the questioned name during the subject's lifetime be verified? If not, then a verified name should be used. --Blue Tie 11:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

As cited above: (Jared Hohlt of Slate)"In the film--as in life--Brandon (who never used the last name Teena; he was called "Brandon Teena" only posthumously) had already been wooing young women as a man in his hometown of Lincoln before arriving in Falls City (population 5,000) in late 1993." Also a documentary from A&E states the same, that the name Brandon Teena was never used by Teena Brandon. Wikipedia states this fact with "born Teena Renae Brandon in Lincoln, Nebraska, and known simply as Brandon"

Yes, as the editor that researched the issue and found and provided the cite for the Hohlt piece in Salon, I would agree that there's a 'controversy' over whether Brandon used the last name Teena or not. Two sources say this, and many other sources contradict this. I'd call it a valid controversy, but far from 'proof' that he didn't use 'Teena' as a last name. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 14:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree. Has anyone found any cite from family members who have qualified what name was actually used? The proof this name needs is from a true source and not just randon articles based on guess work and internet hearsay. Any ideas? User:Rocky

We cannot have a note that weasels on the issue. If we want to note that Jarrod Hohlt wrote in Salon that he was never called "Brandon Teena" during his life, then fine, note that. But I am definitely inclined to think this is a Gdansk/Danzig thing (what something or somebody used to be called is much less pertinent than what they are commonly known as now). I also don't think there's any great "controversy". The documentary that the film was based on was called "The Brandon Teena Story", he is referred to as Brandon Teena in the GLBT encyclopaedia, and quite widely under that name. We note his birthname and that he was commonly known only as Brandon, so I don't feel we are giving an inaccurate presentation of the facts. Grace Note 06:19, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems a bit weird to call him by a name he never called himself, but I suspect the Movie had an influence on that. I am not sure how to judge whether one form or the other is more popular without original research. So, I think a cite would be good. --Blue Tie 07:08, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Isn't that three changes for you on one subject line, Grace Notes?

proposed change to: Childhood

The article says Brandon was the victim of sexual assult when a child, but wouldn't molestation be a better word for what happened? (Rocky) —The preceding User:Rocky comment was added by 63.215.29.115 (talk) 00:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

This might help clear up your confusion. Grace Note 06:20, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

If sexual assault is a large group of behaviors as your definition shows, and this behavior was one of those (Child sexual abuse) but not all of them, then it would be better to make it more specific, if possible. --Blue Tie 07:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It may be better to call it sexual abuse, not assualt. Assualt makes it seem like it was a single incedent. But in actuallity it was repeated.

I have added a change to the 'Aftermath' section.

Teena Brandon is buried under her real name. That is a fact , and is properly cited. Since we know Teena NEVER went under tha name Brandon Teena, and her grave stone reflects her actual name, I propose the article title be changed accordingly.