Talk:Organization XIII

Organization XIII factsheet (READ FIRST)

Attributes, weapons, and Nobodies are taken from Kingdom Hearts II Ultimania, with the exception of Zexion's attribute, which was taken from a Famitsu interview with Nomura; Zexion's weapon, which was shown in scans from magazines; and Lexaeus' weapon, which is referred to as a tomahawk in his profiles for Chain of Memories and II. Original selves come from in-game information, Secret Ansem Report #2 and #3 in the case of Xigbar, Xaldin, Vexen, Lexaeus, and Zexion, with big, obvious scenes revolving around the original selves of Xemnas and Roxas.

Gaps with no confirmed information are:

• Original selves of Saïx, Axel, Demyx, Luxord, Marluxia, and Larxene.
• Lesser Nobodies of Vexen, Lexaeus, Zexion, Marluxia, and Larxene.

• I. Xemnas (ゼムナス, zemunasu)
  • Original self: Xehanort (ゼアノート, zeanōto), uses Ansem (アンセム, ansemu) for anagram
  • Attribute: Nothingness (無, mu)
  • Weapon: Aerial Blade (エアリアルブレード, eariaru burēdo)
  • Nobody: Sorcerer (ソーサラー, sōsarā)
• II. Xigbar (シグバール, shigubāru)
  • Original self: Braig (ブライグ, buraigu, mistranslated as Bleig)
  • Attribute: Space (空間, kūkan)
  • Weapon: Gun Arrow (ガンアロー, gan arō)
  • Nobody: Sniper (スナイパー, sunaipā)
• III. Xaldin (ザルディン, zarudin)
  • Original self: Dilan (ディラン, diran, mistranslated as Dilin)
  • Attribute: Wind (風, kaze)
  • Weapon: Lance (ランス, ransu)
  • Nobody: Dragoon (ドラグーン, doragūn)
• IV. Vexen (ヴィクセン, vikusen)
  • Original self: Even (エヴェン)
  • Attribute: Ice (氷, kōri)
  • Weapon: Shield (シールド, shīrudo)
  • Nobody: –
• V. Lexaeus (レクセウス, rekuseusu)
  • Original self: Aeleus (エレウス, ereusu, mistranslated as Eleus)
  • Attribute: Earth (土, tsuchi)
  • Weapon: Tomahawk as given in Lexaeus's journal profiles in Chain of Memories and II, Axe Sword (アックスソード, akkususōdo) in the Ultimania
  • Nobody: –
• VI. Zexion (ゼクシオン, zekushion)
  • Original self: Ienzo (イエンツォ, Ientso)
  • Attribute: Illusion (幻影, gen'ei)
  • Weapon: Lexicon (レキシコン, rekishikon)
  • Nobody: –
• VII. Saïx (サイクス, saikusu, Romanized as Saix in Ultimania, Japanese KHII site, etc)
  • Original self: –
  • Attribute: Moon (月, tsuki)
  • Weapon: Claymore (クレイモア, kureimoa), Berserker weapons are referred to as hammers in their journal entry, but Saïx's weapon is not referred to
  • Nobody: Berserker (バーサーカー, bāsākā)
• VIII. Axel (アクセル, akuseru)
  • Original self: –
  • Attribute: Flame (炎, Homura)
  • Weapon: Chakram (チャクラム, chakuramu)
  • Nobody: Assassin (アサシン, asashin)
• IX. Demyx (デミックス, demikkusu)
  • Original self: –
  • Attribute: Water (水, mizu)
  • Weapon: Sitar (シタール, shitāru)
  • Nobody: Dancer (ダンサー, dansā)
• X. Luxord (ルクソード, rukusōdo)
  • Original self: –
  • Attribute: Time (時, toki)
  • Weapon: Card (カード, kādo)
  • Nobody: Gambler (ギャンブラー, gyanburā)
• XI. Marluxia (マールーシャ, mārūsha)
  • Original self: –
  • Attribute: Flower (花, hana)
  • Weapon: Scythe (サイズ, saizu)
  • Nobody: –
• XII. Larxene (ラクシーヌ, rakushīnu)
  • Original self: –
  • Attribute: Thunder (雷, kaminari)
  • Weapon: Knife (ナイフ, naifu)
  • Nobody: –
• XIII. Roxas (ロクサス, rokusasu)
  • Original self: Sora (ソラ)
  • Attribute: Light (光, hikari)
  • Weapon: Keyblade (キーブレード, kīburēdo)
  • Nobody: Samurai (サムライ)

Restrictions

It's a little strange that it asks/begs you to edit this article but restricts the editing to certain parties...kind of contradictory if you ask me...— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.226.113 (talk)

"Article protection" is a feature that's been in Wikipedia for a long time. Semi-protection prevents non-registered and newly registered people editing, while full-protection protects it from everyone. Protection is needed because sometimes, people fight over what should be added or not, and it gets getting changed back and forth alot, which is not good for readers. Sometimes, many people add false information into the article or info that's too detailed, or info that doesn't belong in an encyclopedia, here. That happens alot on this article, so it had to be semi-protected. Stuff like "Mansex" and "Arlene" are fan-made names, they don't belong here. - Zero1328 _Talk? 00:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Basically, any vandal who is NOT registered for more then 5 days or is identified as simply a IP address cannot edit this page, it slows the stupidity rate somewhat. BassxForte 18:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism a la Arlene, Renelar, Larene, Mansex, et all.

Is there any way we can block or call for suspension (basically, in some way punish) those who are putting these things in?

There's no way they can claim it isn't vandalism - every official source says they're wrong, and the notes on the page tell them not to do it.

Or is there any way we could in some way block edits of that type (some kind of bot)?KrytenKoro 05:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Generally... people who insist on putting these things in are generally given a "do not add nonsense to wikipedia" warning, and if they continue to persist more drastic measures might be taken. BassxForte 18:24, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Nobodies aren't all born in Twilight Town

Another Report says that Namine was born in Castle Oblivion. Wouldn't this imply they're just born in in-between worlds, and not just Twilight Town?--The Crowing 20:58, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Recent Vandalism notices

I don't know how you're supposed to go about notifying the person that they vandalized and whatnot (ie, what admins you tell, if any), so I'll just put the list of the recent three jack@$$es KrytenKoro 22:03, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

76.174.162.65
24.153.118.133
58.178.112.96

IP addresses have their own user page and talk page, too. The user page shouldn't be used, but you can just go leave a message to them through the talk page. Generic messages are here. - Zero1328 _Talk? 22:21, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Can we reinstate the partial lock? All of the recent vandalism's have been non-users, and only one non-user (out of what, 7?) has added anything of value.KrytenKoro 03:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Xemnas' Title

Well, wait. I would say that "The Superior" is definitely a title of his - it may not have appeared on his gravestone thingamajig, but he didn't actually have one in the first place. However, the title "The Superior" is used much more often throughout the series than any of the others' mini-poems.KrytenKoro 05:27, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

That's entirely your interpretation. Neither the game nor Ultimania gives Xemnas a title, while the others get them in both sources. ' 06:52, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

COM refered to him as "The Superior", although I believe that was to keep Xemnas's identity ambigous. BassxForte 07:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm aware of that. It isn't presented in the same format as the actual titles. ' 23:43, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

• True, but Ansem the Wise refered to Xemnas as "the Organization superior" after reuniting with King Mickey. -- SFH 00:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

That was probably Ansem's way of telling Mickey that Xemnas was the head of org XIII. BassxForte 03:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the Xigbar section

So apparently in a very recently translated interview, Nomura confirmed that Xigbar was indeed talking about Terra, Aqua, and Ven when he mentioned "the others" to Sora, and that Xigbar met them when he was an assistant to Ansem the Wise. Should this mentioned or should we wait for more details?HadesDragon 22:20, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Er, the interview mentions the three in the context of the new scene where Xigbar talks with Zexion. Not the "it picked a dud" scene. ' 01:27, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Er, really? Sorry, my mistake...HadesDragon 10:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Final Mix+

Many times in this article, Final Mix + is mentioned. Does anybody now wether the reference is to the package, including Re:Chain of Memories, or just KH2 FM+?--Tempest115 02:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The collection is Kingdom Hearts II Final Mix+. As in, "Kingdom Hearts II Final Mix plus Kingdom Hearts Re:Chain of Memories". The actual game is Kingdom Hearts II Final Mix. ' 13:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I know that. What I meant was are the references to the package or the individual game, but KrytenKoro answered my question.--Tempest115 20:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

195.195.237.10

This user already has multiple "if you vandalize anything one more time, you will be blocked", and since he continuously vandalized this article AFTER being warned, where do we report the cretin?KrytenKoro 01:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Generally you go to an Admin noticeboard or directly contact an admin for stuff like this. - Zero1328 _Talk? 06:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Sources

The Jiminy Memo is probably our primary source here - we should make sure to list in the citing. Unless we are solely relying on the Ultimania, but that would leave some important stuff out, wouldn't it?

At least, shouldn't we include the entries for the Order in KH:CoM, KH:FM, and KHII?KrytenKoro 03:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Xemnas and the Keyblade(s)

"Keyblade" is the last thing that Xemnas says before he vanishes. Is this relevant at all adn if so, should it be mentioned in the article?--Tempest115 00:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Unless the context or timing of his dying words had any relevence, there's no reason to mention it. // DecaimientoPoético 00:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Specifically he says "accursed... key...blade", however this is simply the quote he gives once his health is depleated, before it goes to a cut-scene, it's about as relevent as Sai'x's "I'd cry, if I had a heart" or Demyx's health depleted quote "*sigh*, beat again". Vilerocks 01:20, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

77 warnings

This page has 77 individual pieces of code within it that are not valid in XHTML 1.0. I refuse to do this by myself. Someone WILL help me.24.107.156.55 18:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Why do they need to be changed? Does Wiki say that it has to be valid in XHTML, or do you just want the page changed for your personal benefit?KrytenKoro 19:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Xigbar and the knights

• We'd like to inquire about the new secret movie "Birth By Sleep". In the new event "The Truth about the Chamber of Sleep", Xigbar mentions a "group that wields keyblades". Is he talking about the 3 armored people in the movie?

• Nomura: Yes, Xigbar witnessed them when he was a disciple to Ansem the Wise.

I was told that Nomura was just answering a question about how Xigbar knew about them - but that's not what he says here. He is being asked who Xigbar is talking about, not how he knew about them - he could have read about them in Xehanort's research, for example. The fact that Nomura brings up that he actually met them, instead of just having heard of them somewhere as could have easily been assumed if Nomura had said nothing, seems to make the event relevant - if it was not important that Xigbar met them, then Nomura could have just said "Yes", and left it at that.KrytenKoro 21:06, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

"His response wasn't monosyllabic, so it is clearly important" isn't logic I can really accept. Can't we be patient and wait for an actual affirmation of importance from the next game? ' 21:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

...Wh-? No, the fact that he ELABORATED on it negates the "he was just answering a question" reasoning - he brought that tidbit up himself.KrytenKoro 22:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you answer every question with "yes" or "no"? He's simply explaining how he knows of them. I think you're taking too much out of a sentence in an interview. I feel we should wait for the next game to actually assess whether it's important or not. ' 06:35, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Ven/Roxas

Shouldn't we include the fact that the knight everyone's calling "Ven" strongly resembles Roxas? I tried to include it in his section but it was deleted. Nomura said himself that the knights have a connection to characters that have already been introduced. It could even be Roxas. I feel that it's important. Thoughts?

Your feeling is not a good enough reason for it to be included in the article unfortuneatly. trainra 12:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOR. Wait for the next game. ' 19:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

It's a staement of fact. " A figure strongly resemling Roxas is seen in the KH2:FM secret trailer. It is unknown whether the figure has a connection to Roxas." I don't recall Nomura saying that the knight wasn't Roxas. If anyone can prove that he did, I'll drop the whole thing.

The exact moment Roxas was created he was picked up by Xemnas, was part of org XIII, left and was captured by Riku and placed in the twilight simulation, when he realized what was going on he merged in Sora and is still merged with him, currently there is not a plausiable reason to believe that knight was Roxas. Vilerocks 16:56, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Real names for weapons?

The FM version of KH2 seems to give the actual names for several of the Organization weapons - Donald's Lexaeus Hammer is named Centurion, Goofy's Vexen Shield is named either Freeze Pride or Freeze Bride (the vocalization symbol is hard to make out).

Also, Sora has an earring that mimics the design of Marluxia's scythe named Full Bloom, and another accessory like Zexion's lexicon called the Shadow Archive. As all of these names seem to fit with the Order Member (the elements are correct), can we assume that these are the correct names at all? For Centurion and Freeze Pride, I'm fairly certain we can, since these are the same weapons the members use, unlike the Keyblade Hybrids Bond of Flame, Acrossing Two (A hybrid of keyblades!), and Way to the Dawn.KrytenKoro 23:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOR. If they had "names", it would be a simple matter of putting them in the game or Utimania. ' 01:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

...It's not really OR. The Defender Shield from KH was part of the Defender Heartless ( a living part, so it's the same thing), and the Wizard's Relic was quite literally the Wizard's Relic. Same for the Shaman's Relic, the Nobody Guard, and the Nobody Lance (the Akashic Record is the closest to being OR, but the Bookmaster's journal entry talks about it having a book of knowledge, and that's what the Akashic Record is). Maybe Full Bloom or Shadow Archive could be OR, but they aren't exact clones of the weapons like Centurion and Freeze Pride are (and where would they mention it in the game? Or in Ultimania, since the names were introduced in FM?)KrytenKoro 02:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Saying it's "not really OR" doesn't make it so. You're using your own analysis of the material that's not stated by anything. Your examples aren't convincing in the least, since those are dropped by the enemies (and aren't the same size as their enemy-held counterparts, anyway).

You're overreaching. ' 03:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

It makes logical sense but Wikipedia goes for "verifiability, not truth". Stating those as fact are too much of a stretch to include. The whole issue is quite trivial, besides. Axem Titanium 03:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

You're completely right, Apostrophe. Of course, that would also mean that Roxas doesn't actually wield the Oathkeeper and Oblivion - in Ultimania, if I'm reading the above right, it only says he wields Keyblades, as the games also say. The biggest analysis I am using is saying:

• 1) Weapon A is named this
• 2) Weapon B has the same exact appearance as Weapon A

Which would be the same "OR" used to figure out that Roxas wields the Kingdom Key, or Oathkeeper and Oblivion.

And that defeating the Silhouettes drops the relevant RECIPES for the same weapons:

Absent Silhouette: - Vexen(The Peddler's Shop), after the initial event

- Get Bonus: Armor Equip Number Up, HP Up, HP Up
- Investigative Guidance(Recipe)
- Freeze Pride(5 ATK, 0 MAG, For Goofy)

- Vanished Vision(S-Rank Material)

Absent Silhouette: - Lexaeus(Sandlot), after the battle with Dusk and Berserker

- Get Bonus: Accessory Equip Number Up, HP Up, Item Equip Number Up
- Power That Exceeds Power(Recipe)
- Centurion(13 ATK, 3 MAG, For Donald)

- Vanished Vision(S-Rank Material)

Absent Silhouette: - Zexion(Cave Of The Dead: Inner Chamber), after the battle

with Demyx
- Get Bonus: Item Equip Number Up, HP Up, Crisis Half
- Books Of Shadow(Recipe)
- Shade Archive(Accessory, 5 AP, 3 MAG)

- Vanished Vision(S-Rank Material)

Absent Silhouette: - Marluxia(Beast's Room), after the event in Beast's Room

- Get Bonus: Drive Gauge+1, HP Up, HP Up
- Unwithering Flower(Recipe)
- Full Bloom(Accessory, 5 AP, 3 ATK)

- Vanished Vision(S-Rank Material)

Absent Silhouette: - Larxene(Isla De Muerta: Rock Face), available when you

get to Isla De Muerta
- Get Bonus: MP Up, Item Equip Number Up, HP Up
- Hidden Thunder(Recipe)
- Shock Charm(Armor, 3 DEF, 40% Thunder)

- Vanished Vision(S-Rank Material)

From http://youtube.com/watch?v=dojNpWui-Uk:

power level above 60k

this is where it gets easy... I used pete to dodge his granite meteor. make sure you've dismissed pete by the time the rubble clears, then space yourself a few feet from lexaeus (not easy to explain, watch the vid to get an idea) and make sure you're in range to guard his centurion drag. you will bait him into using it, guard it and use mega impact. then beat on him, you can finally get in all 3 finishers at this stage. after the third finisher, he'll still be dazed and you might be tempted to go back in, but don't, get the same distance away from him that you did earlier to bait his centurion drag. you'll bait him into using it again, repeat until he's dead.

Fine, I accept that this may be OR, however slight I believe it may be. However, can we at least mention that once their Absent Silhouettes are defeated, they drop a recipe for creating a copy of their unique weapons? That should be as non-OR as we can get it, while still mentioning an interesting and relevant fact. While it may not be plot-based, it is still part of their overall character, I would say.KrytenKoro 05:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I think you're putting in too much effort over some trivial names. We don't mention "Oathkeeper and Oblivion" in the article (because it's irrelevant and completely unhelpful to a general audience) so that point is quite moot. The copy and paste is a bit too much; I am already well aware of them as I own the game. That some guy in YouTube goes by your theory is not evidence for anything.

I don't consider the recipes notable at all, but I don't care for it either way if others are for it. ' 09:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

"I am already well aware of them as I own the game." - So I shouldn't actually display what I am talking about, and just assume that you already, and that if you don't agree with me, you're being obtuse? That's an odd request. Besides - why should I be responsible for knowing what faceless internet names own what games?KrytenKoro 19:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's what I suggest:

"Weapons imprinted by "shadows" (named "Absent Silhouettes" by the game) of Organization members that died in Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories appear throughout Kingdom Hearts II Final Mix, where they take the form of their respective members when challenged. Once these "shadows" are defeated, the player obtains recipes for synthesizing replicas of the Organiztion members' unique weapons."

Sure, I wouldn't get my precious "true names" in, but at least the phenom would be mentioned.KrytenKoro 19:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds too much like gameplay to me. Maybe mention the "phenom" in the FM section of the main KHII page, if you feel like it's notable enough. Axem Titanium 21:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Oathkeeper and Oblivion

The "bonds to Riku and Kairi" thing has something behind it - both of the keyblade's japanese names reference memories, not light and dark, and one of the earlier magazine previews (v-jump, I think) said "Who is this mysterious cloaked man with the keyblades of the memories of Kairi and Riku?", or something to that effect. However, it would need to be sourced, especially since noone actually said they are keyblades of light and dark, and many people would not remember that magazine (it was on KHU a LONG time ago, if that helps at all).KrytenKoro 01:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Both English names refer to memories. "Oathkeeper" is obvious; Sora "keep"ing his "oath" to Kairi. Oblivion is a word that actually means "the fact or condition of forgetting or having forgotten". A thousand villain quips later, people mistakenly thought it meant "destruction". If you can find a good source, I'm fine with adding it to the page, since it's relevant. "He carries two Keyblades that represent Sora's memories of his two friends, Riku and Kairi." Something like that. ' 07:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Roxas in TWTNW

Was Xemnas referring to Sora's battle with Roxas when he talks about Axel "awaking" Roxas? If not, what is Xemnas talking about? It seems quite clear with that scene, even if Xemnas isn't talking about the fight, that the fight is no longer "left up to interpretation". What is going on?KrytenKoro 07:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

The "left up to interpretation" refers to whether it's a "battle of wills" in Sora's being or an actual physical confrontation between Roxas and Sora. Xemnas doesn't clarify that. ' 07:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)