User talk:Rbraunwa

So that it is easier to follow a discussion, I will reply to messages left here on this page. If I have posted on your talk page, I will be watching so you can reply there if you wish.

For archives of my talk page, see User_talk:Rbraunwa/archive, User_talk:Rbraunwa/archive2 and User_talk:Rbraunwa/archive3.

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DYK

On 7 May, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Peter Ellis Bean, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--ALoan (Talk) 21:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

2 DYKs

On 8 May, 2007, Did you know? was updated with facts from the articles Moll Pitcher and José María Morelos, both of which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--howcheng {chat} 17:33, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Manuel Gamio

		The Original Barnstar
		I saw the Manuel Gamio page come through while monitoring New Pages. It looks like you consistently make significant meaningful contributions and I wanted to give you this barnstar for that. —Gaff ταλκ 19:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, that's much appreciated. I started by translating the Spanish Wikipedia article, but then found quite a bit more information on line. I think he's definitely someone who needs an article here.

--Rbraunwa 00:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Administrator?

Are you an administrator here? If you are interested in being nominated, I would be happy to nominate you. I am actullay very impressed by the amount of work you have contributed. —Gaff ^ταλκ 00:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Gaff. Thanks for the offer; it's an honor to be asked. However, I don't really have a good idea about what an administrator does, and how much time would be required. I don't want to take a significant amount of time away from writing. Are you an administrator? Can you give me some idea about what would be expected?

I notice you are from Portland. I attended Reed College for two years before transferring to the University of Washington. I have two brothers who live across the river in Vancouver, so I still get to Portland occasionally. A nice city.

--Rbraunwa 20:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Hello Robert: Being an administrator may not be for you, as it could take away from your writing time. Wikipedia:Administrators describes more what is involved. Basically admins have the ability to protect pages from vandalism and block vandal accounts. They are also viewed as trusted mediators when disputes arise between editors. I am not an admin, but would consider asking for the priviledge down the road, as I spend quite a bit of time cleaning up vandalism. Its frustrating to see somebody tearing through multiple articles changing dates or writing gibberish on others work...I have been in Portland for close to four years. Its really a great city. —Gaff ^ταλκ 22:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think I'll pass Gaff. I read the article on Administrators, and it looks like it would require more time than I would want to devote to it. I really like writing and editing, so I think I'll stick to that. If you are nominated, be sure to let me know, as I would like to support you. --Rbraunwa 02:53, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

DYK

On 24 May, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Sabine Free State, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--ALoan (Talk) 17:40, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

On 25 May, 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Manuel Gamio, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 11:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorting of surnames which begin with "de"

I don't agree with the reversion you made to Alonso de Ribera, and I had the intention of correcting the sorting of all articles I could find which don't include the "de" as part of the surname. The fact that it is commonly used, as in the category you cite, doesn't make it correct. I've put in an inquiry to Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language to see if there is any existing convention or preference. To further support my position, I just checked in the Chilean Telephone Directory and see that all surnames with da, dal, de, de la, del are sorted with the preposition as part of the surname. It might be different in Mexico but, in the end we need to be guided by English rules, not Spanish ones since this is an English publication. I have, at hand, an old edition of a Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia in which articles such as De Soto, Hernando and De Vries, Hugo are in the "D's", but in some cases such as De Kalb, Barron there is a cross-reference to an article in another location (Kalb, Johann). There is no cosistency, but the tendency is to include the "de" as the beginning of the surname unless the person is well known without it. In Chile, Pedro de Valdivia -- I think -- is more likely to be associated with de Valdivia, rather than Valdivia. --JAXHERE | ^Talk 15:53, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jaxhere. Thanks for your message. There is a policy on this somewhere, but I'll have to hunt for it. It says basically that for individuals who are already known in English by a particular variant of their name (de Soto is a good example), the English Wikipedia article should follow that usage. For individuals who are not well-known among English speakers, the article should follow the subject's own usage. This latter proviso would cover most of the historial cases of "de" in Spanish names, I think. There was a debate about this at the Vasco da Gama article awhile back, and there they applied the second part of the rule rather than the first. That one surprised me, but I didn't follow all the details of the debate. I am also surprised about the Chilean phone book information. I haven't looked at Mexican phone books, but I have never (literally) seen a Spanish name containing "de" alphabetized under that particle in encyclopedias or historical works. Also, my unscientific impression about the current state at Wikipedia is that it overwhelmingly follows the rules I paraphrased above. --Rbraunwa 16:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S. This is not the policy I was looking for, but it's also relevant: "Where known, use terminology that subjects use for themselves (self-identification). This can mean using the term an individual uses for himself or herself, or using the term a group most widely uses for itself. This includes referring to transgender individuals according to the names and pronouns they use to identify themselves." (Wikipedia:MOS#Identity). I'm still looking for the other policy.

Rbraunwa, I've looked over the links you've provided and several others which seem to relate to the topic but most of these are dealing with the naming of articles, not the sorting of them in a category or list. If we were to follow the accepted practice of naming articles about people, the article about Alonso de Ribera would be in the "A's", not the "D's" or "R's". My concern here is the position of the name in a list, such as the Governors of Chile that you referred to. In a relatively short list, such as the one you mentioned, the order doesn't make a lot of difference, but we have to be aware of the fact that some of these names might be included in very long lists where the sequence becomes important. In the absence of a clear policy, I'd be inclined to follow the example used by the phone books in the US. --JAXHERE | ^Talk 17:46, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jaxhere,

There is a problem with using the names and alphabetization of immigrants as a model for the names and alphabetization of historical figures. (The two things are closely related, since a person is alphabetized under his/her last name. The name has to be determined before the alphabetization can be done. Our disagreement is really about the names.) If we applied the U.S. phonebook rule to Polish names, the following names of historical figures are incorrect in Wikipedia because Polish immigrants to the U.S. have overwhelmingly dropped the diacritics: Bolesław Bierut, Ignacy Daszyński, Jarosław Kaczyński, Jędrzej Moraczewski. The same thing applies to Spanish names in Wikipedia (accents and eñes are retained for historical figures), even though some descendants of immigrants to the U.S. have dropped them (Lee Trevino for instance).

Another problem with the phonebook example is this. The link is to a U.S. national listing of telephone numbers. Searching for names beginning with "de " returns "more than 300" entries. That still leaves open the possibility that the overwhelming majority of names of this type are alphabetized under the other system. It would be impossible to check that.

A better model is other English-language encyclopedias. I have tried to assemble some links here that show how Britannica alphabetizes names, and also how various on-line encyclopedias do it. Most of these links are to index pages, because for most of these encyclopedias the article itself gives no clue to the alphabetization (as is also the case in Wikipedia).

Britannica print, Britannica CD and Britannica Online:

Siloé, Gil de, Cervantes, Miguel de, Carranza, Bartolomé de, Godoy, Manuel de, Unamuno, Miguel de, Mendoza, Antonio de, Cueva, Juan de la. Not even Soto, Hernando de is an exception.

1911 Britannica:

Juan de Mena, Pedro de Mena, Antonio Hurtado de Mendoza (alphabetized under "M"), Miguel de Cervantes de Saavedra. Hernando de Soto is not an exception. Notice the absence of "de" entries here and here.

The Canadian Encyclopedia Online:

Bodega y Quadra, Juan Francisco de la, Fuca, Juan de.

Catholic Encyclopedia:

Alcedo, Antonio de, Añazco, Pedro de, Abieto, Ignacio de, Azara, Féliz de, Balbuena, Bernardo de. De Soto, Hernando is an exception, but notice the total absence of other Spanish surnames beginning with "de". (There are three or four French ones, however.)

Jewish Encyclopedia:

I was going to check this one too, but the site has been down the last two days. It will have to wait.

Nuttall Encyclopædia of General Knowledge:

Alarcon y Mendoza, Juan Ruiz de, Alava, Ricardo de, Almagro, Diego d', Alvarado, Pedro de. Except for De Soto, there are no Spanish names under "de" (index).

Appleton's Cyclopedia of American Biography:

Benalcazar, Sebastian De, Acosta, Jose De, Tejada, Miguel Lerdo De (alphabetized under "T"), Balboa, Vasco Nunez De, Mendoza, Andres Hurtado De (alphabetized under "M"), Ocampo, Gonzalo De. Again, notice the absence of "de" entries here and here. Soto, Fernando De is not an exception.

Biographical Dictionary of the Organ

Aceves y Lozano, Rafael de, Alvorado, Dioge (Diogo) de, Aranda, Luis de, Araujo, Pedro de. No names of Spanish origin are alphabetized under "de" (here, here or here).

The same rules seem generally to apply to Portuguese, French and Italian names, although that is outside my area of expertise.

Add to this the current usage in English Wikipedia, where a large majority of these articles are alphabetized under the substantive name, not under the particle. In short, alphabetizing names under the particle "de" (at least from Spanish) is simply not standard English usage. The situation is not that different from "John Doe, Count of X" (or "conde de X"), which would clearly be alphabetized under "X" (or perhaps "Doe"), never under "of" or "de".

--Rbraunwa 13:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Rbraunwa, from the inquiry which I mentioned above at the reference desk, finally came the Wikipedia guideline which resolves this discussion:

People with multiple-word last names: sorting is done on the entire last name as usually used in English, in normal order and not (for example) according to the Dutch system that puts some words like "van", "vanden", "van der", etc... after the rest of the last name. Example: [[Category:A.C. Milan players|Van Basten, Marco]] (don't forget to capitalize the first letter of the last name in this case)

Exceptions:

Note that some people are typically called this way in English, for example: Beethoven, [[Category:Classical era composers|Beethoven, Ludwig van]]; similarly: Montesquieu, [[Category:Enlightenment philosophers|Montesquieu, Charles de Secondat, Baron de]]

This is from: Wikipedia:Categorization of people#Ordering names in a category and I think the lengthy discussion you mentioned but counldn't remember where you'd seen it is on the talk page for this subject. So, will you go along with the sorting order of Alonso de Ribera as De Ribera, Alonso, or would you like to try to get a new consensus on the existing guideline?

No, Jaxhere, I'm afraid I still don't agree. The guideline applies to "the entire last name as usually used in English". That's the rule that gives "De Soto" instead of "Soto", and I have no problem with that. But there is no form of "Alonso de Ribera" "as usually used in English". Hardly any English speakers would know who he was. It's simply not the case that "de Rivera" is his last name as usually used in English. And standard English usage is overwhelmingly in favor of "Rivera", as the examples above show. It's not possible to argue either that "de Rivera" is usual in English for this individual, nor that it is the usual rule that applies to all individuals with this type of name.

Ribera does not have a large presence on the Internet, but here are a few links to English publications that alphabetize his name under "Ribera": from Juana the Mad, from Discourses of Empire, from Hispanic American Essays, from The History of Chile and from Blood and Silver: Piracy in the Americas. I could find no publication that alphabetized this name under "de".

There is another analogy as well. At one time, there were English names that correspond almost exactly to this form, for example, Anselm of Canterbury, Adelard of Bath, William of Ware. These individuals are alphabetized in one of two ways — under the personal name (like the first two examples), or under the place name (like the third example), but never under "of [place name]". Persumably that was the case at the time, and it is certainly the case now, in Wikipedia and other reference works. Many non-English speakers whose names were translated into English (William of Ockham, for example), are handled the same way. He is never alphabetized under "of Ockham". [My mistake: William of Ockham was English. He wrote in Latin, but I don't know the Latin variant of his name. A non-English example would be Rainald of Dassel.]

The situation may be different in Dutch, I can't say. But from Spanish and probably from other Romance languages, English usage is very clear.

--Rbraunwa 18:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

You make some strong points, Rbraunwa, but due to the guideline and the points raised in Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 May 26#Surname sorting of names beginning with "de" I'm not convinced. I've asked participants of that discussion to review your points here but I'd suggest that if you have any further thoughts you move them over to that discussion. I don't think we're doing much good holding our own private discussion to determine a broad concern. JAXHERE | ^Talk 14:45, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Jaxhere, I'll move my arguments over there. I would have posted there before, but I didn't know about the ongoing discussion. --Rbraunwa 14:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

the challenge was

I thanks you very much the style revision, my challenge was in spanish version, an "administrator" considered two pages one of them for the expedition, really Ruiz is enough in this case. We want a page extra for the botanist Pavon. Also Ruiz et Pavón authority is well known. --Penarc 23:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi Penarc. I'm glad I could help out. Thanks for adding the information. I wrote a lot of the English article on Hipólito Ruiz López, or more correctly I loosely translated the Spanish Wikipedia article. I meant to write on on Pavón as well, but couldn't find much information on line. I am not a botanist, but rather a historian. However, User:KP Botany, who wrote the original stub, is a botanist. You might want to contact him. I applaud your writing in another language. I read Spanish pretty well, but I would never be able to write an article for the Spanish Wikipedia. --Rbraunwa 02:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

thank you rbraunwa

gracias by your wikification from my article on antonio imbert barreras.