Talk:Turkish coffee

GREEKS ARE TRYING TO RE-WRITE THE HISTORY MISINFORMATION ON TURKISH COFFEE

That first coffee houses were established by Greeks is a big lie. The reference thay give is a commercial Greek food store and claims are not supported by historical records in that website either. There are no historical records yet Wikipedia insists not deleting this lie. Wikipedia should not be a tool to re-write history. Misinforming others is a serious moral crime. Each claim MUST BE SUPPORTED by credible references.

Rewrite

I have rewritten this article, so I am including the old version here. As far as I know Turkish coffee is never prepared the following way in Turkey. If someone can point out where it is prepared this way, we should reintegrate it into the article. ato 07:00, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It's not prepared that way in Greece, but it's also not prepared the way the article now says it is. In Greece, the briki is usually straight-sided or only slightly tapered, not narrow at the top, for example. It can also sometimes be boiled (vrasto), but usually is brought to just below the boiling point. --Delirium 23:10, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

Stop insisting that Turkish coffee is also known as Greek coffee. Only Greeks call it Greek coffee. Even Arabs call it Turkish coffee even though it is originally Arabic coffee. Stop being so nationalistic.

That is true, on in Greece and in Greek restaurants around the world (also occasionally in Cyprus and some Greek Cypriot restaurants), it is known as Greek coffee. But it tastes the same. Time for a kafedaki. Politis 18:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I edited information about terms used in different communities. The term “Greek coffee” is used before Turkish intervention/invasion of Cyprus (1974). It might be politically motivated but it is much older. The same apply to terms used in former Yugoslavia. As far I know, they never used term “Bosnian coffee” in Serbia and Croatia. Even in Bosnia and Herzegovina, borders among ethnic communities may be identified by the term they use for this drink. Also, note they have slightly different words for coffee: kava [1], kahva [2], and kafa [3]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.121.69.85 (talk • contribs) 17:09, 4 July 2006

Well, I deleted "Greek coffee", "Surj" etc. I don't care what others call it. Chinese might call it cong cung coffee. Why is it important? I perceive such attempts as theft of the values of a culture. It is not Greek coffee. Ottomans brought the tradition of coffee to the Western world. They owned the coffee plants in Yemen and introduced this drink to Europe. This is why it is known as Turkish coffee. If you think it is Greek coffee, you should provide the history and reasons for it.

I'm deleting Greek merchants lies. Not based on facts. Another Greek fascist propaganda.

Cardamom

As the article stands, cardamom is only incidentally mentioned. Isn't it an integral ingredient? It would be nice if someone in the know could clarify it in the article. --84.13.10.89 14:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Funny: I was going to write just thi ssame thing. --Rmalloy 03:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

You could add it in, if it wern't constantly protected........... Patch86 18:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Old article

Turkish coffeee is a medium-roast coffee, but due to its small cup size and preparation method, it is similar in strength to espresso. It can be either sweetened or not depend on preference, but is not drunk with milk.

Turkish coffee is prepared by the cup. Each cup is prepared in its own small copper pot. The grounds used are very fine and are served in the coffee.

The process involves three boilings. First the water is boiled on its own. The pot is removed and the grounds are added. The water is brought to a boil a second time, and removed. Now sugar is added, and the pot is brought to a third and final boil. Take great precaution not to bring it to a roaring boil as that would take away the taste of the coffee.

Note, however, that the exact method of preparation seems to vary somewhat; see this page for a slightly different method.

Turkish coffee grounds are sometimes flavoured with cardamom.

Pictures

The picture in the Istanbul coffe shop and Cretan implements are great. The how to make the coffee are really confusing, in fact they say nothing at all. That picture needs to be deleted. - Politis 18:25, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I will not object to the proposed deletion. Bertilvidet 11:48, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Surj

Does anybody know what Surj is? It redirects here. Andreas 21:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Surj is the Armenian word for coffee, not only Turkish coffee. Turkish coffee is referred to as Armenian coffee by Armenians. Hakob 01:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Psychiologic warfare does certainly corrupt reality.If I were an Indian or Maya descendant,I wouldn't refer anything American or Spanish under a different name.--85.97.76.234 16:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Divide into sections?

Nicely done article, very clear. But should it not be divided into sections? After the first part, which can remain untitled, Equipment, Preparation. Then the paragraph beginning "There are other philosophies of preparing.." and ending "as connoissieurs claim—on the palate." could be moved above the paragraph "All the coffee in the pot is poured ..." (into the Preparation section). The paragraph "All the coffee in the pot..." will begin the Drinking section. I think this would make the article a little easier on the eyes.

The sections now in place seem effective, so I removed the sections tag. ENeville 06:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

History back to Damascus?

I remember hearing that the recepy for Turkish coffee - as cooked on the lands between the Ionian and Caspian Seas - originates in Damascus.

• Secondly, is the Turkish method the original way of cooking coffee in Europe (outside the Americas)? Politis 17:52, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Turkish Coffee is one kind of tea. It'S not a coffee.

Kurukahveci Mehmet Efendi

On my last holiday to Istanbul I visited this historic premises, its one of the most prestigous Turkish Coffee brands and produced in the tradditional manner, ground freshly.

I must say it is totally so bad, if you get the chance try this, its the Real McCoy

Here's the site

http://www.mehmetefendi.com/eng/pages/kkme1.html

Byzantium ?

Some fascist Greeks want to erase everything with Turkish. This is another tactic. Since Byzantium predates Ottoman, if they can make people used to the name 'Byzantine coffee" it will later mean that it was actually Greek coffee. I hate these fascist Greeks. It was Arab, then became Turkish coffee then spread to the world including Greece where it was called Turkish coffee until the fascist Greek coup in 1970's. So continuation of Greek coffee names shows how some Greeks are in the path of fascist military regime of 1970's.

Reference to byzantium is simply idiotic while there were no coffee drinking while it was alive.

Not exactly

Hey, I don't know if the Byzantium reference was apropriate or not, but calling it idiotic is mean, and a can assure you that when Byzantium fell in the early 1400s, coffee drinking was around. Kennethmyers 01:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

You want to provide any reference for that? "Byzantine coffee" is absurd. I've never heard of Byzantine coffee. Hashshashin 14:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Well according to the Wikipedia article on Coffee, the first coffeehouse opened in Constantinople in 1475. Patch86 02:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

And what is your point? Was Constantinople in 1475 still Byzantine? Perhaps you live in an alternate timeline, but such a development in 1475 could be attributed to the Ottomans, and even the Greeks, but not the Byzantines. Hashshashin 21:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

It is, none the less, the same city. I'm not talking about who brought it there or what it was called (I honestly wouldn't know). All I meant was to remind you that the inhabitants of "that city" (whatever we want to call it) were drinking coffee in the 1400s, verifiably. And naming is not always as straight forward as what something actually is.

The fact of the matter is, if there is a sizeable demographic of people (say, Greeks) whocall it Byzantine coffee (due, even, to the 15th Century revival of the term) then it needs to go into the article. It doesn't matter if it makes sense, it doesn't matter if its caused by some old nationalistic rivalry- if there are a large number of people who call it that, even in just one single country, it still merits inclusion. Same goes for the term "Greek Coffee". While it is true that 95% of the world call that beverage "Turkish Coffee", if Greeks call it Greek Coffee, it needs to be mentioned. As is an encyclopedia. Patch86 01:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree: never heard of 'Byzantine coffee'. In my opinion, it would have been impossible to have such a term. With the Greek revival of the 15th the term 'Byzantine' gained restricted revival amongst the Greeks, but coffee was not consumed in the empire. As for the term 'Byzantine', it finally gained usage in the late 19th century when the coffee terms had been well established. In fact, speaking with my 'Greek hat', I am alsmost certain that 'Greek coffee' only came into usage in the 1970s. Sorry guys, but 'Byzantine' has to be deleted. Politis 16:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Lets also include new names for Turkish coffee if Zairean, Rwandan, Malaysean, Persian, Iraqian, Surinemese, Indonesian, Japanese, Chinese, Mandarinese, Thai, Polish, Polynesian, Australian, Tasmanian so on so on...call Turkish coffee in their own language. Turkish coffee is known as Turkish coffee. Greeks used to call it Turkish coffee up until 1970's. Fascist Greeks should have a Fascipedia.

Merge

Does anyone still want to merge the articles, or can we get rid of the notice?

Kennethmyers 01:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Nationalist Manipulation

I am going to remove "greeks opened first coffee shop" statement which is injected without citation, also it is unexpected while coffe is known to the east. Also after years of conquest calling city with old name which is stable and without resistance as "ottoman accuppied" is simply intentional. City was no more constantinople nor there was a byzantium. Utku a

The city was renamed to 'Istanbul' in 1930. This says a lot... Hectorian 05:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you living in a tangent universe or someting? This is bullshit, I am in istanbul as it was since 15th century. Also coffe was known to east and first coffee arrivel to the istanbul short after Turkish conquest is not some kind of coincidence. You are corrupting the article. Stop mentioning your so called thesis as facts withour PROPER citation. --Utku a 07:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, u have provide no source at all... neither academic, nor commercial or respected or whatever... I am reverting the article. and, btw, coffee came from the south. Arabia is in the south of Asia Minor, not the East (unless u believe in a sort of an unheard thesis that the Turks brought it from Central Asia...). Hectorian 08:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Will you mention anything worth reading ? I do not have to provide a source, your are the one coming with the thesis, it is not my duty to disprove it with another sources. This is not kind of "faith" discussion, this is an encyclopedia. Stop corrupting articles with your national beliefs.--Utku a 08:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Ottoman Turks bore the tradition of coffee to Europe from South Arabia. Check your books fascist Greeks. Is anyone messing with Aristoteles? Leave the facts as they are. Ottoman Empire was in control of coffee production until the 17th cc. They took it from Arabs gave it to the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.79.194.241 (talk • contribs)

Greek vandalism again

They are reverting the article to make it contain "Greeks opened first coffee shop" without proper and respected citation. They have put some links to commercial greek sites as reference ???

Greek attack on Turkey related articles continues

I am calling wikipedia admins to take a look at all Turkish or Turkey related articles(Ataturk, Seljuk Turks, even Turkish coffee, Turkey, Turkish cuisine etc.) and recently changes has been made by the same users very different varieties of topics, they are continuisly injecting uncitated, baseless POV's. This is a consolidated and suspicious effort to discredit Turkish people using related articles as can be noticed easily.

Protected

I have protected the article, please find a compromise on the talk page. Protection is not the endorsement of the current version. In fact I would like to see more reliable sources than the greekfood website for the challenged fact. Alex Bakharev 06:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

How about this compromise?

In 1475, the world's first coffee shop was opened soon after the conquest by the Turks in the ex-capital of the Byzantine Empire. According to a legend the shipowners were Greeks [4][5] [6]. That was followed by the establishment of more coffee houses in Istanbul (former Constantinople). Alex Bakharev 07:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Fine by me. as for the nature of the sources, i know that they are not that reliable, but i doubt if in such cases better sources can be found... I mean, it is a legend, like the one on how the Greeks learn to eat potatoes: the soldiers of Kapodistrias were protecting them, so the Greeks thought they were something precious! so, re-wording the current article as "according to a legend", as u propose, seems right to me. Hectorian 18:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Concur.. As Hectorian said, we cannot expect to find concrete sources on this. Baristarim 02:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Then we must NOT put this to wikipedia without reliable resources, this "information" is useless, it is just distracting the reader. I can add any kind of stuff by starting with "according to legend" where is the line for this?. This is Turkish coffee article and this "legends" claims are pretty serious. (I could not join to debate yesterday becouse I was blocked 3RR breaking on this article)--Utku a 07:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Instead of breaking rules and leading the admins to block u, better offer something constructive here... The phrase "according to the legend" or similar, is used in tens of articles. such info is interesting, it does not claim to be "exclusive' or 'absolute reliable', cause it is a legend... thus, i can call your addition of the tag and your message here as "lack to find whatever kind of sources" to dispute that legend. feel free to add other legends! it wouldn't be much of a problem, would it? Hectorian 09:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

A phrase starts with according to legend has no place in a history section of an article. And this kind of expression can not be seen in any respected resource. Feel free to add another section as legends about Turkish coffee. And existence of legend also will be disputed after that, what can be accepted as a legend, an inviduals claim is enough for that? I will remove again, and about 3RR breaking, a smart admin is capable of detecting cooperative reverting(maybe we must create a legendary cheating dicipline of yours) I suppose. I will continue protecting this article.--Utku a 11:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Reprotected - Seems to me that there is still no compromise, judging from the reverts after page unprotection, thus I have protected the page again. --WinHunter ^(talk) 15:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

You guys are crazy, its just a beverage. Many Turks have Greek blood and vice-versa (so chill on the nationalism stuff). Maybe we should all sit around hold hands and sing kumbaya. Lets keep the legend stuff. Naerhu 02:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest to create a trivia section and put this "According to the legend,..." thing there, until better references are found. deniz 20:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion

Third opinion is for when there are two (and only two) parties involved in the dispute. You may wish to consider filing a request for comment if consensus is unreachable here, and everyone involved should remember to be civil. (Pet peeve of mine: Correct typing really does make things easier to read. The word "you" is spelled using three letters, this is not a cell phone IM conversation.) Seraphimblade 11:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Is this an ironic comment on the way i am typing? all my edits on articles are written correctly. my typing in talk pages is another issue (btw, u should had made similar comments to all those users who make grammatical, typing, syntactical mistakes, or who do not use "correct" english with no prose, etc in talk pages...). as for the first part of your comment, there have been opinions presented by Alex Bakharev and Baristarim as well. I do not know how many more opinions are needed for Utku a to think that he/she may be wrong... Hectorian 12:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

In general, correct English, spelling, grammar, capitalization, etc., enhances readability of long blocks of text (as are common in talk page debates), so I encourage it wherever I can. As to the debate here, as so many are already involved, I would advise that a request for comment be considered (though it would be best to discuss it before filing) to gain outside editors' input on the appropriate handling of this information. Seraphimblade 12:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

lol, why did this article get protected again?? :)) Personally, I thought that Alex Bakharev's suggestion was very reasonable. From an impartial point of view, I think that it is a fairly balanced way of putting it. In any case, if people want to take it to an RfC, go ahead.. But I just would like to point out the fact that none of us here can claim to have concrete sources about 15th century events. Only sources we have from that period are about important political events, and even they are open to accusations of unreliability from time to time. Nobody should expect to find CNN footage of the opening of a coffee shop or a docking of a ship in a 15th century city. Don't forget that it is a very strong possibility that many things we know about human history can be flawed, exaggerated, balanced or distorted because of a serious lack of reliable sources. For all that we know, it could have been a Chinese merchant from the Silk Road that introduced coffee to Constantinople/Istanbul in the 15th century. I also agree with Hectorian that "according to legend" is a form used in many articles in Wiki. let's remember that the article is already titled Turkish Coffee :)).. I am definitely not taking a position on the issue of the origins of coffee, but I am just trying to have look at this from an editorial point of view. Again, if an RfC is needed, go ahead.. And as for the "you-u" thing, u gotta be jokin'!! :)) Baristarim 21:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Armenian Coffee

When this dispute is over, and the article unlocked, please change the text that says:

Armenian Coffee (Armenian: Հայկական քոֆէ)

to

Armenian Coffee (Armenian: Հայկական սուրճ Haykakan surj)

The former is completely wrong, simply a transliteration of the English word into Armenian, when Armenian has its own word for coffee which is by far the most heavily used, rather than the foreign load word of Kofe. I have heard that Armenian is the only language in the world which has a name for coffee that is not derived from the same root, and therefor does not resemble the word "coffee" in English, but don't know if that's true. Would be interesting to find out.

Thanks! --RaffiKojian 16:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Inserting legends to articles is not acceptable according to the wikipedia rules.

"According to a legend the shop-owners were Greeks"

This sentence must be removed because

1. Wikipedia is not a place for legends.
2. The references for the claim are not reliable. All of them are Greek web sites.
3. Extraordinary claims require much more stronger references. So can i insert to Pizza article that "According to a legend, Pizza is not Italian, but Turkish. Here are my references, if you don't mind they're all Turkish" !?

And furthermore, it must be exactly explained in the article that why on earth only Greeks and Armenians call it sth. else apart from "Turkish Coffee". I know that even Greeks were calling it as Turkish Coffee before Cyrpus dispute. Simply, "Turkish" word is allergic for them.--BlueEyedCat 22:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Who says Wikipedia is not the place for legends? It's not like we're presenting it as an undisputed fact. We specifically say it's a legend. You say the sources are week, but on the other hand you have not provided any sources at all to contradict this. According to WP:V, "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". If you want to explain why Greeks and Armenians have their own names for the coffee, and if you have sources that say why, by all means add this to the article! Regards, Khoikhoi 06:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I hope there will not be editorial contreversies... It is called Turkish coffee, just as we have Brussels sprouts, Cornish pasty, Viennese ice cream or Greek salad... (it gradually became 'Greek coffee' after 1975; Greeks until then used to order it by asking for a 'Tourkiko'). There are references that Greeks also used to run coffee houses in the Ottoman empire; I am not sure if Muslims were allowed to run coffee shops. Politis 23:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Turkish coffee

If this coffee did not originate in turkey why is it called Turkish coffee? isn't there a better name including the majority of the users or something.

The method of preparation is believed to have originated in Damascus and to have become widespread during the Ottoman Empire - Nareklm 08:49, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Still thinking that old Tanbur appropriation of Greek culture is 'Turkic' eh? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.172.117 (talk • contribs)

The name isn't really an endorsement of anything; this is the English Wikipedia, so we use the most common name in English, which is "Turkish coffee". Other names are also used in English, especially by immigrant communities in the US, UK, and Australia, including "Greek Coffee", "Arabic Coffee", and "Armenian Coffee", so we also list those, but since they're less common we list them after "Turkish Coffee". (I've also seen "Mediterranean Coffee" at a few Lebanese-American restaurants, but I'm not sure if it's common enough to be worth mentioning.) --Delirium 21:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Legend

Legend says the first coffee shop was owned by Greeks! What a lie! It was two Syrian merchants. They came to Istanbul opened a coffee shop they became rich and left the city (Source: Uncommon grounds history of coffee).

VANDALISM********************TO THE EDITORS OF VIKIPEDIA*************************************** I'd posted a translation from Pecevi an Ottoman historian regarding coffee. I found it deleted and replaced by Greek lies, that are not supported by history. Why is this keep happening? Should we allow fascists to misinform people? You should find these people and block their IPs.

---

Pecevi, an Ottoman historian of the early seventeenth century, writes: ìUntil the year 962 (1554-55), in the High, God-Guarded city of Constantinople, as well as in Ottoman lands generally, coffee and coffeehouses did not exist. About that year, a fellow called Hakam from Aleppo and a wag called Shams from Damascus, came to the city: they each opened a large shop in the district called Tahtalkala, and began to purvey coffee. These shops became meeting places of a circle of pleasure seekers and idlers, and also of some wits from among the men of letters and literati, and they used to meet in groups of 20 or 30. Some read books and fine writings, some were busy with backgammon and chess, some brought new poems and talked of literature. Those who used to spend a good deal of money on giving dinners for the sake of convivial entertainment, found that they could attain the joys of conviviality merely by spending an asper or two on the price of coffee.

Start by reading Wikipedia:Civility. Hectorian 21:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Cardamom

I have been served much more Turkish coffee without cardamom than with. But the article indicates that it is necessary. Should I edit? Or do we need discussion and sources? Jd2718 03:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Why not Turkish coffee

Ok, I'm Greek and I have lived through the Cyprus dispute. They whole "greek" coffee thing started when a Turkish-coffee company (which was Greece-based) decided to take advantage of the invasion of Cyprus with an ad saying "We call it Greek Coffee!" in 1975. Other companies followed, not wanting to lose nationalist customers. It is sad to see that in the information era, we Greeks share nothing with our ancestors regarding our views on historical truth. Also, keep in mind that i'm in university studying "History", so I think my opinion has more weight than your average Greek or Turkish fanatic. Please keep it POV here boys and girls... ;)

The only Greek coffee that I know of, is Frapee. It is a coffee made by the Greeks for the Greeks... (even though I prefer the Caphucino) As for the Greek coffee-shop legend, it is nothing more than a poor effort on changing history. It is what other History students at University call "smart quote". It is not lying straight-forward by saying "The first coffee-shop in Constantinople was Greek." It merely suggests that it may have been Greek, since the legend says so. Also, it claims that drinking Frappee is to Greeks a holy moment. Should we add this in the article as well?:P I mean, this website is begging not to be taken seriously!

A styl

Three reasons: 1) Regardless of the reasons, everyone in Greece calls the coffee Greek coffee at the moment. 2) The coffee is certainly not Turkish, originating in Yemen or Ethiopia. Thus Turkish coffee is as much of a misnomer as Arabic coffee. 3) Turkish coffee is a new name too, they used to just call Turkish/Greek coffee "coffee" in Turkey until the introduction of Western filtered coffee. -Alexius Comnenus

Well there are certain flaws there a) it is how it is called in the English language that counts - not in other countries. The extra info in the lead is still there just because Turkish editors are being nice, I am sorry to say. In English, it is exclusively called Turkish coffee. b) origins are not important - again, what matters for Wikipedia is its most common name in English. If you would like to change that, feel free to write a book c) what it was called in Turkey is also utterly irrelevant per a)

In fact, I would like people to bring in sources to attest that it is called by a sizeable English-speaking community in the world as "Greek", "Byzantine", or "Armenian" coffee. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to have all those other names in the lead, but rather in the etymology section or something. Baristarim 05:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

This style of coffee was "Made in Turkey" in a certain manner that was original and unique. That's the WHOLE POINT! It was originally MADE IN TURKEY - hence TURKISH Coffee. You can argue untill you are blue in the face that it was made by non-Turks but the point is that it was conceived by TURKISH CITIZENS, refined and spreadout by TURKISH CITIZENS, and reached it's present form because of TURKISH CITIZENS - within TURKISH BORDERS that are to this day still are within TURKISH borders. Unless you have a photograph of the birth certificate of the person who invented it, or a "patent", then any argument made here on the "ETHNIC" origin of Turkish Coffee is desperate, irrelevant, racist, divisive, and politically motivated. Here's my suggestion to some people: make your own version of Turkish Coffee, slightly different of course, and make a new Wiki page for it and brag all you want - or whatever it is that you want with Turkish Coffee (I see it going the way of Ouzo, a patent and lawsuit againt any nation who calls it "Turkish"). Or maybe have some PRIDE in yourselves - if possible - and stop stealing other people's cultural heritage.--Oguz1 18:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

To all who claim the Greek legend story...

Please stop. If you continue to vandalise Wikipedia, as you did to Turkish_coffee, you will be blocked.

This method of making coffee originated in Istanbul, which was under Turkish rule, and still is. It makes no difference to the ethnic background of the "first person" to make it because they were Turkish Citizens. That makes them "Turkish Nationals" whatever their "DNA" - which makes it Turkish Coffee. Nobody alive can even ascertain the DNA of the "inventor" which as I stated above is irrelevant because they were Turkish Ottoman Nationals and the subjects of the Ottoman Empire. All the rest of claims - and that ridiculous commercial website provided as a "source" - are laughable. Hilarious in fact. Not withstanding all of the above and other complaints, the absolute irrelevancy of the sources cited, the purposeful alteration of the facts, and the repetition of the occurences, I ask you please do not enter any more Greek commercial website refences with anonymous authors and call it a Greek invention. I will report the next person as vandals under [WP:Vandalism#Sneaky Vandalism] (Sneaky vandalism = Vandalism which is harder to spot. This can include adding plausible misinformation to articles, (e.g minor alteration of dates), hiding vandalism (e.g. by making two bad edits and only reverting one), or reverting legitimate edits with the intent of hindering the improvement of pages. Intentionally making non-constructive edits to Wikipedia will result in a block or permanent ban.).--Oguz1 22:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Mister Oguz, I disagree with you. Most people capable of using a computer and accessing the article are also capable of thinking for themselves. They can click on the link and make up their own minds as to whether they believe it or not or consider the sources reliable or not. You are trying to deny them that opportunity! What you are doing is censorship and removal of sourced information.--Domitius 23:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

According Greeks and Armenians, everything is Greek or Armenian.

especially if explicity and literally says "Turkish", just visit the links below.

Ayran, Yoghurt, Doner Kebab, Kilim, Manti, Baklava, Oklava, Turkish Cymbals, Turkish Goat, Turkish Cat, Turkish Horse, Turkish Kilim, Turkish Raki, Turkish Tea, Turkish delight, Turkish carpet, Turkish bath, [[Turkish Music], Turkish wrestling, and on and on...

So, that means the Greeks and Armenians in reality are Turkish and just A.K.A Greek and Armenian. Now it totally makes sense.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oguz1 (talk • contribs) 17:35, 9 March 2007.

Oguz, they are widely used sourced alternative names, so don't remove them.--Domitius 17:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Sourced? You mean those Greek and Armenian websites? Since when do you care about sourced? You keep deleting "terrorist" from Ocalan and that is sourced from the US State Department. Pleas, who are you kidding? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oguz1 (talk • contribs) 18:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

Normally your additions to Öcalan would be acceptable except it has been decided (not by me - by administrators) that it violates WP:WTA. There is no such consideration here (unless "Greek" ir "Armenian" is a "word to avoid" in your book).--Domitius 18:03, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I see yor point on WTA about terrorist but I don't see where doner kebab's Armenian translation is relevant to the article and where it is sourced that it's an Armenian dish. Do tell. --Oguz1 18:14, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

OK I'll give you the "Armenian" - looking back in the page history that was an anon edit. I've restored your version - happy?--Domitius 18:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes. thanks. How about you the same for Coffee...nowhere is it sourced nor is it relevant to the article. We don't go calling it Greek or Armenian Shepherd for German Shepherd even though everybody uses, trains and makes them dfferent. Do we? --Oguz1 18:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Ehh, no. Look at the diff - you're removing existing alternative names, no one speaks of a Greek or Armenian Shepherd. It's customary to include the alternative names used around the world for a particular item, compare with Baklava, I'm sure you agree.--Domitius 18:31, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Tourkiko

I think the first paragraph has to make it unambiguously clear that it was first known as 'Turkish Coffee' - at least in most SE European countries. For instance, in Greece (also in former Yugoslavia), until the 1970s you simply asked for a 'Tourkiko' (a Turkish), without even adding the term coffee. Politis 15:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I will add some well-sourced information on this. --Macrakis 17:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Byzantine coffee

There is a web link given to show that Turkish coffee is sometimes called "Byzantine" coffee. I am not sure that one link to a random essay on the Web proves anything at all. After all, a Google search does find it in fully 243 places on the Web (with -wikipedia). Versus 81,700 for "Greek coffee" and 480,000 for "Turkish coffee". And in Greek, it's 27 (mostly about a book by Leia Vitali) vs. 2180 vs. 70. So it doesn't look terribly notable. So I guess rather than explaining that it is ridiculous (since the Byzantines didn't have coffee...), it should be removed entirely. --Macrakis 17:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Euphemism

Where are the actual sources? The Greek dictionary doesn't say that, so what, this is your (Macrakis's) interpretation, opinion, POV, original research, whatever; no? More significantly, it doesn't mention Armenia or any Arab country, so where does that come from?--Domitius 18:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree there aren't sources for Armenian and Arabic; it would be good to get them. So I suppose we should explain only the Greek case as a euphemism; is that what you propose? But the Browning quote is quite clear for Greek. That is not POV or OR. Do you have any sources with other theories for why the name "Turkish coffee" was replaced with "Greek coffee"? --Macrakis 18:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It's OR that it's an euphemism in Greek as well (what source uses that word?!). If all the source says is the text reproduced here, then we might as well just cite that and let the reader decide.--Domitius 18:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

No, the source doesn't use the word "euphemism". It just notes the interesting chronological coincidence of the 1974 crisis and the move from "Turkish" to "Greek" coffee. In a similar coincidence, "French fries" were renamed Freedom fries Macrakis 18:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

I'm not disputing that. I'm saying it's original research to assume that denying the name "Turkish coffee" is a symptom of strained relations with Turkey.--Domitius 18:49, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

As for "Freedom fries", couldn't the Americans have just called them "chips" like the rest of the civilized Anglophone world.--Domitius 18:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

(Sorry, I hit Save page prematurely. Here is the full comment:)

No, Browning doesn't use the word "euphemism". He just notes the interesting chronological coincidence of the 1974 crisis and the move from "Turkish" to "Greek" coffee. In similar coincidences, French fries were renamed Freedom fries by Republicans when France opposed the Iraq war, and sauerkraut was renamed Liberty cabbage during World War I. Surely it is reasonable to characterize all three cases as "euphemisms". WP:OR does not forbid us from using our heads. --Macrakis 19:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

can someone explain this to me? thanks

"but also under the various national names, which are used to avoid the political and cultural implications of mentioning the former imperial power, the Ottoman Empire, and the current Turkish state"

deniz^T_C 23:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

How much cardamom

For one pot of Turkish coffee (or Arabic coffee), how much cardamom is used? The seeds from one entire green pod, or just one or two seeds? Are the seeds ground together with the coffee? Is the pod also ground, or just the seeds? 24.93.170.200 22:10, 7 July 2007 (UTC)