Talk:William Shakespeare

note "d"

What happened to it? It doesn't link anywhere. Wrad 00:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Good spot. That's why I hate these infernal alphabetical notes: they don't naturally readjust like cite.php. The note strikes me as superfluous: the issue of the relationship between these two plays is addressed in book after book, but nothing is known for certain. Readjusting all these notes is a fag, though.qp10qp 12:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Apocryphal Stories

Why is it that the apocryphal stories told to fill in Shakespeare's "lost years" from 1585 - 1592, which are claimed to be "hearsay," are still to be found in every Shakespeare biography? Isn't it time we let these apocryphal stories die a natural death and stop talking about them ad infinitum? If you keep repeating them over and over, they begin to be perceived as being real. HaarFager 06:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, really; and I've made that point in the past. But I fear we are obliged to note these rumours, since some of the hearsay dates to a time not entirely remote from Shakspeare's: for example, Aubrey is one source, and Rowe, the first hearsay collector, writing in 1709, is another. We are stuck with this stuff, unfortunately; but at least we tell the reader that it remains rumour.qp10qp 12:17, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Confusing sentences

This sentence strikes me as confusing every time I read it:

Anne's pregnancy could have been the reason for any hurry.

I assume "any hurry" refers to "some haste" in a previous sentence, but why is it put so awkwardly? RedRabbit 13:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I can't see anything wrong with it. Why is it awkward? It glosses as: "if there was a hurry—and we have no prove that there was—perhaps the reason could have been that because she was pregnant, they didn't want to have an illegitimate child".

Having said that, the proof is in the eating. And if it bothers you, see what you can do.qp10qp 13:39, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

"could have been the reason for any hurry" is what I find awkward. If other readers are fine by this, I'll leave it. RedRabbit 14:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I am also confused by this sentence:

In March 1613, he bought a gatehouse in the Blackfriars priory;[48] and from November 1614, he was in London for several weeks with his son-in-law, John Hall.

Why are these disconnected clauses in the same sentence? Why are these lumped together but other clauses set off by periods?

They are not disconnected. They are both examples of his maintained interest in London at a time when he is usually considered to have abandoned the capital for Stratford. And one presumes that he stayed at his gatehouse with John Hall.qp10qp 13:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I see. My mistake, then. RedRabbit 14:27, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not your mistake; it's your take. If it doesn't work for you, then you must find a way of changing it. Just because I think they are connected doesn't mean they actually seem connected.qp10qp 18:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Removed new section

This section appeared today/yesterday:

Reception in Modern Culture

While the works of Shakespeare enjoy much popularity among theater groups and readers of classic literature, reception in modern culture often ranges from mixed to negative. A large majority of people find Shakespeare to be difficult to understand and follow, as it often requires several passes over a line before one can grasp its meaning, and many can often find none at all without scholarly insight. Even in the days of old, the works of Shakespeare were incredibly difficult to understand when experienced for the first time, as the language is full of meaningful adjectives and very thought-out, elaborate points that are expressed in extremely rapid-sequence, often requiring considerable time to think about and understand. This difficulty lends many today to not bother trying to enjoy the works of Shakespeare, as they find it too difficult to understand without extensive study and meditation on the words. Thus, it can be said that Shakespeare is a dying trend in modern culture, that, while still immensely popular in theater and classic literature, usually only reaches mainstream audiences in the form of quotations from famous works (such as 'Romeo and Juliet' and 'Hamlet') when presented for comedy and amusement, rather than their original purpose.

While the author has clearly made some efforts to describe Shakespeare's place in contemporary culture, it seems obvious to me that this is all opinion. As far as I am aware, Shakespeare remains the most-performed playwright in the world (an unsubstantiated claim from me, now, I know). I'd be happy to see some of this material return (well, not happy, exactly) if the author would cite some research that indicates the scope and prevalence of the attitudes and opinions that he details.

DionysosProteus 14:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The original editor has reinstated the material. As a compromise I have added a {{refimprovesect}} tag, pending citations. As the tag states, the material may still be removed. According to WP:PROVEIT, the best person to provide the citations would be the original contributor. --Old Moonraker 14:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I wait with baited breath for this research to appear. This material is very far from 'obviously' correct. That there are 'mixed' to 'negative' responses I don't dispute, but to claim that these represent a statistically-relevant proportion of the total population of theatre-goers (who form the only meaningful constituency in this case) is completely unjustified. To my knowledge, and it will take a little research to prove it, Shakespeare remains the most performed playwright on the planet. To say that under these conditions most audiences have "mixed or negative" responses defies belief. Professional theatrical production does not, as a matter of course, put on plays that provoke these kind of responses, and continue to do so year after year! By 'mainstream audiences' I'm assuming the author refers to theatre audiences, since we are discussing a playwright; it would be meaningless to cite any other set of the population (the non-theatre-going, for example), just as it would be to say that Picasso's paintings are obscure and unknown because only people who go to art galleries see them. In which case, the author would need to explain why Shakespeare's plays remain the most-produced in the world. Masochistic self-flagellation on the part of global audiences? To say that the lines take several readings before they are understood is nonsensical. We are discussing plays written by a playwright, designed to be heard in a theatre, not literature to be studied--though significant, the latter is far from being the most relevant context. And as for the phrase "even in the days of old", it's clumsy, to say the least. To which 'days of olde' does the sentence refer? Far from being considered overly erudite or obscure, the Restoration and later Augustan periods considered his work coarse and barbarous! They often cleaned-up his language because was too low-brow. The Romantics admired his work for its connection to a folk- or popular- theatre constituency. I don't doubt that your average American high-school student stumbles over the language when studied as literature in the classroom, but the relevant context has to be when the words are expressed by a professional actor in a embodied situation, where the rich semiotic density provided by stress, rhythm, articulation, verbal and emotional shaping and gestural, situational, interpersonal, etc. etc. factors combine to produce a perfectly 'legible' communication. It is Shakespeare's ability to communicate this powerfully that brings audiences flocking to his plays to this day. DionysosProteus 15:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

• Agree with Dionysos completely. This added paragraph makes little sense. "Mainstream audiences"? Does that mean tv and radio? "Original purpose?" - the author doesn't mean theatre, which is alive and well and producing more WS than any other playwright (American Theatre Magazine often make this point), as Dionysos also points out. In the hands of the right directors and actors, WS blows away even those hard to please high schoolers. Good cut.Smatprt 16:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

• This is a featured article. I will kill on sight any unsourced new sections or commentary added to it, and frankly even fully sourced and credible material is going to have to fight for inclusion. If any editor feels that this material should appear on Wikipedia, I suggest taking it to Shakespeare's reputation, and we can hammer it out there. AndyJones 16:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

• • Good Richard II reference. I will also cut such material whenever it appears. RedRabbit 16:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

• • • I'm pretty sure you'd have a consensus on that, Andy. Although I would add that if it has any merit at all it may be good to copy it here when we remove it, so that the editor has a chance to add it back if he can add refs. Wrad 19:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

We shouldn't allow the article to ossify, of course. But we're all probably knee-deep in offcuts and books, so there is no shortage of referenceable material that qualifies for the article, to say the least. The threshold for inclusion must now be quality first. And then proportion, article size, etc. I'm optimistic, though, that the usual Wikipedia degeneration can be staved off, because so many of us are watching and care. Even so, I think we should hold an annual review of the article as a group. (By the way, has anybody applied for front page? I don't think it just happens on its own.)qp10qp 00:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree we should delete without mercy new additions that fail to meet the present established criteria, and I plan to review the article every month or so to catch any entropic drift. In addition, I'm not satisfied with some other parts of the article, and in a month or so I'll probably do a bit more rewriting. Tom Reedy 15:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

B/c this is now a featured article and has been through a lengthy consensus and standards period, we are totally justified in requesting that any new additions both be well researched, meet the current standards of the article, and achieve consensus before they are added to the article. And in the case of this new section, it doesn't belong here. BTW, massive congrats to everyone who worked so hard to bring this article to FA status. Best, --Alabamaboy 01:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Suggested edit

I hesitate to directly edit an article with so many active editors, and especially one that has just passed FA. But I noticed that the third sentence in Critical Reputation begins with "And": "And the authors of the Parnassus plays . . . ." I don't strongly object to starting a sentence with a conjunction myself, but I know it irritates some readers and I tend to edit it out. Could this be joined to the previous sentence, perhaps with a semicolon? Mike Christie (talk) 12:45, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

No, leave it. We both know the rule about not starting a sentence with "and" is silly; we might as well scan the text for split infinitives and sentences ending in a preposition. If some readers wish to change "and", so be it. It is not for us to remove every word that displeases hypothetical readers of bad taste. RedRabbit 13:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Mike, if it annoys someone, let them address it. "And" is OK at the beginning of sentences on occasion: all the best writers do it. One of the problems with this sort of section is that, really, it is a disguised list. Sometimes it is hard to find connections between sentences that would justify a semicolon; and the "and" helps the flow, I think. But I wouldn't go to war about it either way. (And "buts" are OK at the beginning of sentences too!)qp10qp 20:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

No worries; I am not a prescriptivist by any means, and think conjunctions are fine at the start of a sentence (and split infinitives and prepositions at the end of sentences don't bother me either). I was just worrying too much about writing inoffensive language. Glad to see other people have the good sense to value clarity over prescriptive usage. Mike Christie (talk) 20:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Avoiding conjunctions at the beginning of a sentence was never a serious prescriptive usage. It was just a rule of thumb that people misinterpreted. RedRabbit 16:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Spaces between grafs

I put two spaces between the paragraphs in the lead because I received a complaint that they were hard to distinguish. What does everyone think about doing this throughout the entire article?Tom Reedy 03:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

On my computer that makes things look extremely odd. I wonder if your complaint had more to do with the person's computer settings than the article itself. I would be strongly opposed to such a change, myself. Wrad 03:04, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

On my computer the spaces between the grafs are barely more than the spaces between the lines. Anybody else have a similar or different view?Tom Reedy 03:15, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Wrad--the double spaces look weird. They also don't follow Wikipedia guidelines. If someone has a problem with hard-to-distinguish paragraph breaks, that's an issue to address at the macro programming level (i.e., by changing the overall WP formating standards), not in an individual article. Best,--Alabamaboy 03:48, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

OK with me. I was going to change it back, but I see it's already been done. Tom Reedy 03:52, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Request

Shakespeare was born and raised in Stratford-upon-Avon.

This has always struck me as clunky. Can we expand it? RedRabbit 16:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

What strikes you as clunky? It seems elegant and straight to the point to me. Not a word out of place nor anything missing.Tom Reedy 17:48, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

British English would have "brought up" for "raised", but it's a minor point. The OED has "now rare" for this sense, with the last citation dated 1869. --Old Moonraker 20:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

At least we didn't have him "reared."Tom Reedy 23:22, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

A couple of copy-editing things (well, three, actually)

• British English (see above) - I'd prefer "brought up". And I've added another "l" to "traveled"
• It appears he retired to Stratford around 1613 - I'd vote for a "that" after "appears" (less colloquial)
• In the speculation part of the lead, works attributed to him were actually written by others - is "others" correct? Surely no-one argues that they were written by more than one person? I'd suggest "actually written by someone else".

--GuillaumeTell 21:47, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• Several people have argued they were written by more than one person. The anti-Strats call it the Group Theory. (And the idea of group authorship isn't just held among the authorship doubters: think of Thomas More or Henry VI Part 1.) I'm not disagreeing with your suggestions in principle, though. AndyJones 22:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Andy is correct - and there are several group theories, or theories that suggest that many of the plays were revised by others (after the principal author died) prior to publication. FYI - the section used to say "another writer" but was changed to "others" during the FA process. The idea has merit, though. It would probably be most accurate to say "another writer or a group of writers". That would be my suggestion. Smatprt

"Others" covers both scenarios, so IMO it is the best word choice. I'd also like to see another wording instead of "It appears he retired to Stratford." Not only is it clunky ("It . . ."), but later in the article we present the idea only as a possibility that is contradicted by other facts.Tom Reedy 02:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

error in style section

"Was the hope drunk wherein you dressed yourself," please. Sighing, RollsUpSleeves 10:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Good eye. Thanks. RedRabbit 10:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

No problem. I'm thinking as well that there should be a question mark at the end. Sighing, RollsUpSleeves 21:12, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that "pity, like a naked new-born babe" is identified correctly as a simile in the text accompanying Pity, but incorrectly as a darting between metaphors in the Style section. Sighing, RollsUpSleeves 18:04, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I've changed it slightly to take what you say into account: For the record, the source (Shakespeare's Late Style, by Russ McDonald) says:

Readers will easily recall speeches, lines, metaphors, and turns of phrase in which evocative or distilled language conveys its meaning in apparent defiance of logical or literal sense. An obvious case in which intuitive understanding precedes grammatical cognition is the passage beginning “pity, like a naked new-born babe…” (1.7.21–25), of which Dr. Johnson said “the meaning is not very clear” and over which Cleanth Brooks labored so valiantly. Another is Lady Macbeth’s “Was the hope drunk wherein you dressed yourself?” (1.7.35–38), with its succession of apparently illogical images. This darting from one metaphor to another apparently unrelated image, which has frequently puzzled editors and critics, is a practice that Shakespeare will pursue uncompromisingly throughout the last phase, forcing the listener’s mind to accelerate at a dizzying rate. Frank Kermode’s remark that in "The Tempest" metaphor gleams momentarily, and is rarely extensive enough to be catalogued and analysed, is pertinent to the late style generally; and "Macbeth", notwithstanding its famous vegetative and sartorial clusters, exhibits the roots of this gestural, condensed use of figurative language. qp10qp 21:57, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

In this extract both quotes are cited as instances of intuitive understanding preceding grammatical cognition, but only the latter is cited as a darting between metaphors; there can be no darting between tropes of any sort in the first quote as only one is present. Sighing, RollsUpSleeves 15:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I've altered the sentence to include more of the "pity" quotation.qp10qp 20:25, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I missed that the whole of the "pity" passage was being cited by Russ McDonald. Thanks for the amendments. Sighing, RollsUpSleeves 20:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Congrats

Congrats to everyone who worked on this article to finally achieve featured status. It is one of the most important humanities articles in any encyclopedia and also one of the most difficult. -- 71.191.36.194 05:35, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Speculation sentence again

I was annoyed to see the speculation sentence return to its old form:

Few records of Shakespeare's private life survive, and considerable speculation has been poured into this void,[3] including questions concerning his sexuality, religious beliefs, and whether the works attributed to him were actually written by others.

"considerable speculation... including questions [of]..." is a shoddy construction. Please find another way of putting that sentence. RedRabbit 09:01, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Could you identify the points of shoddy construction?Tom Reedy 21:07, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Stephen, there was nothing wrong with the placement of that comma. When the second independent clause in a sentence begins with a coordinating conjunction, a comma is placed before that coordinating conjunction. (I find it amusing that we're squabbling over punctuation. A big change from the weeks leading up to FA, huh?)Tom Reedy 05:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. Now that we've got to the point of arguing about whether the article says he was "raised" or "brought up", I think our work here is done. AndyJones 13:03, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, looking back over the vandalism and a few well-intended but incorrect changes that have been done since FA status, I doubt our work will ever be truly done. It's like scraping barnacles. I'm dropping by once a day or so to monitor the page, and I see others are also, so hopefully we can keep the article tight and correct.Tom Reedy 15:57, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps those of you with strong copyediting skills would find yourself more needed in the Romeo and Juliet article, which was recently promoted to GA. It may be possible to get it to FA with some good copyediting and a little more expansion. Wrad 15:53, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Play title missing "The"

Under Comedies in the Listings section, the title "Taming of the Shrew" should be "The Taming of the Shrew" Harlezah 12:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Well spotted. Fixed. qp10qp 12:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Surviving Descendants

I was just wondering, does Shakespeare have any relatives alive today?