Talk:Communism

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Plato

is write "In his 4th century BCE The Republic, Plato considers the idea of the ruling class sharing property" but the communism is "a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production". So the Plato ideas is not near communism idea, there are classes, state and there isn't common ownership of the means of production. There is only sharing property of ruling class, anf for true i remember that he writed there is none property for ruling class. So i think is best deleted Plato ideas from this article --Francomemoria 00:31, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Plato most definitely wasn't any sort of communist. So I have no problem removing all references to the proto-fascist bastard who wanted to systematically lie to the population and also remove art from his "Republic".AFA (Fuck you!) 16:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I also agree. --Duncan 23:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The article does not attempt to portray Plato as a communist, nor does it attempt to depict his ideas as equivalent to modern communism. The reference to Plato's idea of communal property should remain because it is relevant to the origins of the central doctrine of modern communism. If the reference to Plato were to be removed, we would also have to remove the references to Thomas More and Jean-Jacques Rousseau who, although not communists, made significant contributions to communist theory like Plato. -- WGee 20:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

if this is true, and i not think so, give reference of this --Francomemoria 23:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Two references are already provided for you in the article:

• "Communism." Dictionary of the Social Sciences. Craig Calhoun, ed. Oxford University Press 2002. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press.
• Angela Hobbs, "Plato." The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Politics. Ed. Iain McLean and Alistair McMillan. Oxford University Press, 2003. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press.

-- WGee 00:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

i need many time for find this books in some library but i'm sure this is a position have not many fans in communists thought, only who don't knowing communist idea can write him Republica as reference. in MIA only reference for Plato is " Disciple of Socrates, objective idealist, fought against the materialist teachings of his time. Plato developed the theory of existence of immaterial forms of objects which he called "forms" (or "ideas"). To Plato, the sensible world is the product of these "forms", which are eternal, while sensible objects are transient and changeable" --Francomemoria 12:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

If you are having trouble finding the aforementioned sources, the Columbia Encyclopedia, the Encyclopedia of Russian History, and the Legal Encyclopedia also refer to Plato in their discussions of the origins of communism. They are viewable online here. -- WGee 02:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Columbia write "Plato, in his Republic, outlined a society with communal holding of property; his concept of a hierarchical social system including slavery has by some been called “aristocratic communism.”" but the write false in "outlined a society with communal holding of property" there isn't this in The Republic, so this source is not serious.

Russian write "The term has been applied to premodern social and political constructs, such as communal societies propounded in Plato's Republic" a few, not motivations for this.

Legal write "As early as the fourth century b.c., Plato addressed the problems surrounding private ownership of property in the Republic" they have a bad lecture of The Republica, Plato not addressed the problems of private ownership but only of "Guardian" ownership.--Francomemoria 10:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Let us not digress. This article says that "Plato considers the idea of the ruling class sharing property." All of the sources just provided for you (as well as the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy [1]) verify this statement. There is nothing more to discuss unless you have some reliable sources that contradict these ones. -- WGee 01:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

yes the article says that but also that there are connections fra Plato and Communism, the communism is for all members of society (and in Utopia is so) not for a little. the point is the Plato idea is not related with communis idea not that sharing pownership of guardians classes--Francomemoria 12:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no question that Plato's communism bears very little relation, if any, to Marxist communism. But Plato is often called communist by writers, which should be the standard for the encyclopedia, no? - Jemmy Button 23:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

More, Utopia and Communism

The article suggests that communism has origins in More's Utopia. I don't think that quite stands up. Communism is discussed in Utopia with reference to the Utopian system, i.e. it was an established and understood concept at the time of writing. Epeeist smudge 10:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a bit of a non sequitur. When any term is first discussed in print, then it is at that moment established in print. That does not mean that it is not the original instance of it. The term communism doesn't appear as far as I recall in the book, but it clearly is the first exposition of communism, and an excellent one at that. --Duncan 23:00, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Clearly the first? I seriously doubt that. For example, monasteries practiced communism for many centuries before More--surely someone wrote about it. (Right? shrug). I'd be hesitant every to call anything the first statement of something, seeing as I haven't read anywhere near everything. -Jemmy Button 23:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Comparing "Communism" to "communism"

Perhaps a better title for this section? Like "entomology of" or "application of term"? This title just seems a poor choice. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 143.88.168.68 (talk) 06:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

Marxism-Leninism/Trotskyism

The article currently says: "During Trotsky's exile, world communism fractured into two distinct branches: Marxism-Leninism and Trotskyism. Trotsky later founded the Fourth International, a Trotskyist rival to the Comintern, in 1938." This is problematic, as Trotskyists consider themselves to be Marxist-Leninists. Can someone think of a better way of re-wording. How about something like "fractured between the official Communism of the Comintern and the Trotskyist current that formed the Fourth International in 1938." That's too cumbersome, but the current wording is unsatisfactory. BobFromBrockley 12:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Technically, aren't "Marxist-Leninists" Maoists? Stalinists are either Stalinists or simple Leninists, usually.--Red Deathy 12:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

No, thats incorrect. All major streams stemming from the main communist tradition, with the exception of Eurocommunist sectors, considers themselves as Marxist-Leninist. Trotskyists generally avoid the term ML, initially at least preferring the term Bolshevism-Leninism. --14:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Soman (talk • contribs)

trotskysts most use the term leninism, never ml --Francomemoria 17:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree, Trotskyists tend not to use the term M-L, but do consider themselves Marxists and Leninists. Would they actually reject the name Marxist-Leninist? BobFromBrockley 15:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Trotskyists don't consider themselves to be Marxist-Leninists: just look for references! Marxists, yes. Leninists, yes, but Marxism-Leninism was coined to mean the mainstream Communist Parties and those emerged from them after the second world war. Eurocommunism often avoided speaking of Lenin but, politically, it is in the Marxist-Leninist tradition. --Duncan 16:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the terms Stalinism and Trotskyism would be more accurate? Stalin's apologists don't much like the word, but Marxism-Leninism wasn't a term used until the '50s, and even if Trots don't like using it it still is a term which describes us.

As well, I think that it would help to summarize the ideologies of the different communist streams in that part of the article. The way it is, it only talks about history. 71.198.98.233 16:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

USSR criticized for fascism

I keep adding this (with more references each time) and having it removed. Now, I hardly want to defend the criticism itself, but it is very common; indeed, I have cited an entire book about it. Not a book which calls the USSR fascist, but a book about the fact that Americans consider the USSR fascist. To say this cliche is not common (as has been said in edit summaries) simply baffles me. It's all over the place, at least in writing contemporary with the USSR's existence. -Jemmy Button 23:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I do agree with the cut. This article isn't about the USSR. Refernces to this view are perhaps useful in the article on the USSR, but is not a notable comment with regard to communism. What you're written also seems close to original research, for example in suggesting the Trotskyists share this view. That is not the case: Trotsky said that Stalinism exceeded fascism in its violence, but that is a comment about Stalinism and not communism, and not a statement that Stalinism is fascism. --Duncan 00:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say anything about Trotsky. I inserted a George Orwell quote that said that. Sure, the article isn't about the USSR, but the subsection is about criticism of communist states, and the USSR is one of those. --Jemmy Button 00:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Communism and religion

Previous posts on this talk page which I have archived brought up the subject of communism and religion. This article does not describe that relationship at all, yet the atheism of the Soviet Union seems to have been a major reason for American opposition. Which of the various threads of communist thought or governance are atheistic, and where does that come from? -- Beland 00:38, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Liberal clap-trap

I see nothing but liberal sissy-talk in the article. And here! Why doesn't anyone point out the obvious? That which all of us TRUE Conservaties know: that communists oppose freedom and hate God? The very foundation of communism builds on opposition of personal freedom and the God-given right of private property. Further, communists are atheists, and the communist system has such a worldview as its state-religion.

If you hate freedom and like communism, you can just get out of America and go live in Russia. Personally, I can't wait until my business trip here in Europe is finished, so I can go back to the States myself and wave ol' glory. Rather DEAD than red! -Titus S. Johnson