Talk:Dir En Grey

Besides main genre adding...

What about genre adding in albums and singles?

Thoughts?

AKnot 01:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

How about a section in this article titled "Style and subject matter" which elaborates on the band's stylistic development and the content of the lyrics? This would be a lot more informative than adding individual genres to infoboxes of every release which is bound to spark lengthy discussions in several cases ("It's hard rock." - "No, I think it's metal." - "You know, it has a certain pop appeal..."). I've been meaning to start such a section for quite some time, but I never seem to get around to it. - Cyrus XIII 11:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

That's agreeable. After typing the question, I was thinking of that spark discussion as well. That would be a great idea! Describing them originally as a regular J-Rock band and then evolve to more of a metalcore like band. AKnot 01:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget that J-rock and visual kei are not music genres per se, as they really do not describe the style of music at all (except origin and outfits of the artists and maybe the language used). I'd rather use genre handles very sparsely and if any, only more common ones, in order to make the text accessible to people who are not familiar with rock music from Japan. - Cyrus XIII 09:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

All right. I might begin the section soon. AKnot 05:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. I would also need help in it to make it look perfect. I got to listen to Agitated Scream of Maggots, do you think it has some swedecore influences? AKnot 02:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I gave the section a small rewrite, limiting the number of genres mentioned, not going too much into detail (song examples) and trying to have it come a bit more directly from the music found on those records, instead of repeating stuff thrown around at web based discussions on this matter. Hope this works for the most people. Sorry about those half-a-dozen-something minor edits following the big one, I could certainly use more sleep these days.

In other news: I'm trying to come up with good tracks to take samples from, in order to illustrate the band's work with actual audio. I would say three would be well in the limits of fair use, one from Gauze, one from Kisou and one from Withering to Death. Suggestions? - Cyrus XIII 07:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Cage (Gauze), Filth (Kisou), The Final or (Withering to death.). I believe those are good suggestions. If it was possible to have more, I would also suggest Macabre (Macabre), umbrella (six Ugly), Obscure (Vulgar), and Grief (The Marrow of A Bone). AKnot 02:23, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Definition of "Messy" CLEAN UP BANNER

The banner that noted that this section should be cleaned up has been removed I guess until I further clarify what the definition of "messy" is. Particularly what needs fixing is the syntax and the grammar of the article. For example, I will take a typical sentence style that is scattered all around the article. "This caught the attention of Yoshiki Hayashi of X Japan fame, who produced and arranged the singles of their subsequent album, Gauze, released in 1999." Just minor things like that, I feel it needs to be more formal and not so "stylized". Dec 11 2006 12:34 xcuref1endx (UTC)

Apparently you are concerned about the article's style, not the grammar as stated in you original edit summary. Thanks for clearing this up. Well, if these issues are so minor, what exactly keeps you from fixing them? Delegating the task like this might very well result in the banner being removed after a while, because no one agreed with your initial complaint. I certainly do not. While an article can always be more formal, this one is still in a much better shape than many of its peers in terms of style and the subsequent NPOV. But this should not keep you from being bold. Oh and one last thing: New discussion topics go to the bottom of the page. - Cyrus XIII 09:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I fixed some of the grammar. I am not an expert on the band, but I've made some minor changes for clarity. I am new, so sorry if I missed anything up. Thanks, and I hope I helped more than I messed up! Goyston 04:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I have rephrased and simplified several sentences as well and if nobody objects, I will remove the cleanup tag within a day or two. - Cyrus XIII 09:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Clean-up

I have removed the first sentences that was not important information, then we need some citations, for example that they were the first indie and to enter at the top 10 of the Oricon, i guess that this isn't true so X Japan entered 10 years before as you already know. Then we need also some citations for the Kyo injuries, and then i have deleted the paragraph from the line-up section, most of the bands use nickname and not their first name: Pata (Tomoaki Ishizuka) for example, or Klaha, Közi, etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.184.87.104 (talk) 18:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC).

Your edits have been reverted for the following reasons:

• Subjects such as current or founding lineup as well as genre are deemed important enough for the first paragraph in most band-related articles on Wikipedia. After all, this paragraph is supposed to deliver a basic overview.
• The singles X Japan released as an independent band (namely I'll Kill You and Orgasm are conspicuously absent from the group's Oricon listing.
• The matter of stage names (or nicknames, as you call them) had already been addressed in the paragraph you removed, which was there to make the article more accessible to people not familiar with Japanese bands.
• Other information you removed is easily verifiable through the band's official website, which is linked no less than twice in this article.

Please remember: While Wikipedia encourages you to be bold in updating articles, try to remain considerate at the same time (see WP:BB). - Cyrus XIII 19:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Saku video

why isnt it on the videography?Quatreryukami 19:49, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The videography covers video-related releases on VHS and DVD, such as concerts and music video collections. The "Saku" video and it's relation to the one for "Kodou" is actually mentioned in the notes for Average Fury and Average Psycho. - Cyrus XIII 03:23, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Name change

Since in Wikipedia, the names of bands are kept with their respective capitalizations, I was wondering if Dir en grey should be moved to DIERENGREY. If you notice on the latest album, the name is written this way consistently on both the cover and within the booklet. I won't move until sufficient responses have been made, but wouldn't this be considered an official name change? --Jake 22:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually Wikipedia does not always follow official capitalization, as it has a few stylistic guidelines regarding trademarks. Also, before making any wide reaching changes, I would suggest to wait and see whether there has indeed been a permanent change in spelling (Dir en grey → Direngrey). Several pages of the official website still use the variant with two spaces. - Cyrus XIII 23:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, well, as far as capitalization issues, I was speaking of how the page is titled Dir en grey rather than Dir en Grey or Dir En Grey as some places require. Thanks for your input. --24.176.1.18 14:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

If you look at the official site you will see "Dir en grey" everywhere. I don't know about the latest album, but it seems that at least the official site still uses this capitalization. --analoguedragon 19:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Separate articles for concert tours

More recently, some articles have been created to illustrate the band's individual tours. While precedents for such pages exist on Wikipedia, they usually document live efforts by bands who are arguably far more notable than Dir en grey, with internationally successful careers spanning not just barely one but several decades (like Metallica, The Rolling Stones and U2). Apart from information already covered by related articles (like this one or the those dealing with the band's extensive videography) and content copied from the official website's timeline, these articles largely rely on unsourced material. On a lesser note, some also appear to require cleanup with Wikipedia's style guidelines in mind (i.e. WP:ALBUMS).

The links to these articles from this one have been removed for the time being, until aforementioned notability, verifiability and potential copyright issues have been resolved. If someone would like to make improvements, the respective meta article can be found here: List of Dir en grey concert tours - Cyrus XIII 02:29, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

After reading the article in question, I agree that all problems stated exist. I would also like to say that, being most of the concerts listed have little or no data associated with them, I would even go so far as to say delete it. There's just not enough content to be considered encyclopic. Maybe I'm going too far, but that's what I think. Quatreryukami 17:42, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Style and Subject Matter

Err, this sentence doesn't seem to make much sense:

Had certain songs up to that point already been decidedly more fast-paced, raw and aggressive than their peers, the band's music took a turn with the release of the EP Six Ugly, sporting more metal influences from then on in general.

Ambrosia- 04:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I will try to rewrite that passage tomorrow, ok? - Cyrus XIII 03:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Picture from the "Visual Kei" period.

I think it is necessary to have a picture from Dir en grey's "Visual Kei" period, as that is part of their history. For the American audience, Visual Kei is an unknown thing, and while there is a small page on it, it is better represented by an image. Does anybody have suggested images or think it to be unnecessary?

Also, so as to not clog the talk page, I'll add here that I changed the word "appearances" in the festival notation in the final paragraph, as "appearing" somewhere is different than "performing" somewhere. Example being, Ozzy Osborne appears at ever Ozzfest summer festival, but does not perform at every show.--Jake 11:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Visual Kei, for purposes of history only, yes, but if it will be used as decoration then no. Is there a Public or Fair Use image? Quatreryukami 02:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Good point on the semantics (I was employing the word "appearance" merely for the sake of diversifying the wording). As for the visual kei thing, I believe a Gauze/Macabre era group shot would help to illustrate the band's early career, but I doubt that there is a public image available and I'm not sure whether this is an ample case for further stressing fair use for this article. - Cyrus XIII 08:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, then why don't we go the Rationale route, and get someone to write us a Copyright template for Japanese band related Pictures? Or am I being too WP:BOLD? Quatreryukami 15:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Given the current climate towards fair use content (note the recent changes to Dir en grey discography), I guess adding another copyrighted promo shot of the band just isn't the way to go. - Cyrus XIII 01:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of anal users about this. How 'bout Fair Use? Does anyone know where to find one? I know not Wikimedia Commons (:D). Maybe some fan photos from a personal website, whats the rules for that? Quatreryukami 02:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Get the permission of the owner of the fan page or whoever took the shots. Ambrosia- 03:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Associated Acts

Should La:Sadie's or D+L be included in the "Associated Acts" section of the infobox?--Jacob 19:47, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

No clue who D+L is, but I'm sure that La_Sadie's should be.

Nevermind, the article for the band now just redirects to Dir en grey. ~Ambrosia- ^talk 02:06, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Even though it does redirect, it should still be placed there, as not everyone knows that they are not the same band (though they very nearly are). D+L is the old band of Toshiya, he was previously in both Gosick and D+L (but most notably D+L).--Jacob 02:32, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

The infobox manual is not specific on this, but personally, I only add acts to that field, which actually have an article of their own, in order to ease navigation for the reader, without unnecessarily bloating the box. By the way, while this might be one of those "facts" everyone knows, we probably should have a citation for La:Sadie's. - Cyrus XIII 11:37, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, JMusic Europa is generally a fairly accurate source, and their La:Sadie's page seems to be a good citation. There are also magazine scans that announced when La:Sadie's became Dir en grey, and the fact that Toshiya was the new member. Just a thought though, nothing necessary.--Jacob 15:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd consider JaME mostly reliable when it comes to news (since they name their sources) and interviews. Their artist profiles though strike me as no more verifiable than those on, say, ThePPN. - Cyrus XIII 17:27, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I can see where you're coming from there, because many of their editors are fairly opinionated.--Jacob 17:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I changed the "Lineup" section. Changed "the artists are credited with their first names" to GIVEN names, because in Japanese, the family name comes first. Hope nobody minds.

Exact formation date

The date of their exact formation isn't available on Wikipedia, however, it is generally accepted among fasn as February 2, 1997. I was browsing through the Yarouze magazine, which features an entire detailed history and profile of the band, and the history section includes February 2nd as a formation date. This source is in Japanese, but is as official as any other publication. Scans can be provided.--Jacob 15:47, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Scans would be appreciated, thanks. Do you have a publication date on that issue of the magazine? Coupled with a page number, I'd say we got ourselves a decent source then. - Cyrus XIII 18:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

It is on page 23, and the publishing date is October 2, 1999. Here it is on Yahoo! Books, listed with its October publishing date, and on Amazon.co.jp, still available for purchase. Here is the cover and detail of the table of contents. The information is contained in the "Dir's HISTORY" section.--Jacob 05:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The Band's Name

I found this information on the Japanese Wikipedia. I don't know if this is common knowledge or not, nor if this has been discussed before.

Dir en greyの意は、「Dir」はドイツ語で「銀貨」、「en」はフランス語で「～の」、「grey」は英語で「灰色」を合わせ、“灰色の銀貨”という意味であるとされている。(但し、実際にはドイツ語に「Dir」という単語は存在しない)

"According to Dir en grey, 'Dir' is German for 'silver coin,' 'en' is French for 'of,' and grey is English for 'grey.' Together, it means 'a silver coin of grey.' (However, there is no such word as 'Dir' in the German language)"

Is this information indeed correct, and is it relevant to the article? The only problem I see with it is that it's unscourced. This seems to be a recurring problem on Japanese Wikipedia.

(And yes, I know 灰色の銀貨 would be less literally, "a grey silver coin." I was just translating it with "en=of" in mind (is that accurate? I don't know a lick of French))

Chibi Gohan 10:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree about the Japanese Wikipedia and I'd even go as far as saying that this reference issue is a general problem with every version in certain areas (the English one just receives more input). The only actual source we currently have on the name is the interview from that recent Spike TV show, were the band stated that the name was supposed to be a mix of languages that wasn't supposed to mean anything (beside "Dir en grey" of course). I guess that makes any attempts to translate the name in parts or as a whole rather pointless. Also I have no idea how one could translate "dir" with "silver coin". German is my native language and to my best knowledge (and Leo) these words don't have any connection. - Cyrus XIII 10:56, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Odd. So Dir is actually a word, but there isn't any connection to "silver coin." I suppose the "there is no such word as dir in the German language" comment was due to the Japanese editors lacking an understanding of German.

I would try to edit that out of the Japanese article, but I don't know quite enough Japanese to explain to the Japanese editors what the problem is (and, I don't really care that much :P).

Anyway, thank you for your input!

Chibi Gohan 13:20, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

MySpace removed.

Recently, the MySpace was hacked by an anonymous person and this was proven with a bulletin. It will (or already) be removed until further notice. NaotoATG 02:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Free Will

The arrests of Free Will officials has everything to do with Dir en grey, the money was used defrauded using Dir en grey (and other bands) as an excuse, and was used to fund costs for bands signed to the label. Including tours, music videos, producing their records, and so on. 219.90.229.216 06:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

International Success

A list of Japanese musicians with success outside Asia. There are many more, but this list is big enough, and features musicians from many genres.

Stop writing that Dir en grey is one of the few, or notable Japanese musicians to have international success.

Akiko Yano, Yellow Magic Orchestra, Toshiko Akiyoshi, Pizzicato Five, Murahachibu, Tatsuro Yamashita, Kazumi Watanabe, Joji Hirota, Vow Wow, Sadistic Mika Band, Char, Boredoms, Hiroshi Fujiwara, Mute Beat, Toshinobu Kubota, Tokyo Ska Paradaise Orchestra, Hi-Standard, Eikichi Yazawa, Seiji Ozawa, Akira Jimbo, Denki Groove, Thee Michelle Gun Elephant, Kako Takashi, The Stalin, Lisa Ono, The Street Sliders, Buffalo Daughter, United Future Organization, Anzen Chitai, Cornelius, Loudness, Kyu Sakamoto, Dj Krush, Godiego, Fishmans, Zeebra, Keiko Matsui. 122.49.157.149 10:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, I think you are missing the point of the statement at hand. The article just says they are among the musicians that have gained success, not that they are "one of the few" or that it is uncommon. This is relevant, as internationally successful artists (especially in hard rock and metal) are uncommon. This is why bands like Rammstein are so widely known for not only being talented, but for being a foreign band.

Secondly, many of the artists you list above are not mainstream successes, they are merely famous in their niche followings. If one were to ask most punk rock fans who The Stalin are, many would not have the first clue. Those are are extremely into Japanese hardcore though, they would know immediately. They are a niche success. Others listed are just small artists. You cannot base international recognition solely on a small singular factor such as selling records in foreign countries and having done a few small non-domestic shows. --Jacob ^Talk 15:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you research some of those musicians, because what you wrote is nonsense! The only thing Dir en grey has achieved, is a few non-domestic shows, and a few non-domestic album releases. They are not internationally influential like many other Japanese musicians. Internationally successful artists are not uncommon, and Japan has its fair share of world famous musicians. Yoji Biomehanika has achieved more international success than Dir en grey, why isn't he a "notable" Japanese musician? 122.49.157.149 16:02, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you take initiative and make mention of that on Wikipedia. This is not a page for making complaints about other artists. You fail to mention the true influentials too, like Tomoyasu Hotei and Yoko Kanno. Please take your arguments to other pages if they pertain to other topics. --Jacob ^Talk 16:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Cyrus XIII said "surely you can present sufficient sources for your allegations" and you said "definition on world wide success varies"

I provided a small list of Japanese musicians with international success (as previously stated, there are many more) most of their biographies will detail their success.

Many of them are included in HMV's list of the top 100 Japanese musicians. http://www.hmv.co.jp/news/newsDetail.asp?newsnum=311040091

Please explain, why being internationally respected, pioneering, influential, and so on, is only a niche success?

Now explain, why Dir en grey has "notable" success, and is "among" the Japanese musicians with notable success.

Since their record label stole money to fund European and US operations, the article should be updated to include that information. 122.49.157.149 17:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

Request this information, and source be added to the article.

On September 14 2007, the president of their record label was arrested for defrauding an advertising agency in 2001 of almost US$3 million, by making it look like the agency had recieved orders to produce music videos for bands signed to the label.

Source: http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/418315

The source evidently mentions Dir en grey, and comes from one of Japan biggest news companies. 122.49.149.115 07:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Note for administrator: the above "editprotected" request does not have consensus and appears to be related to the edit-warring that caused this page to be protected. --Parsifal _Hello 10:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

This information is relevant to the article, and has a reliable source. It is kept sort and to the point. 219.90.180.76 14:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

 Not done for now. Please replace the editprotected template once there is a consensus in support. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 18:22, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Pictures and Videos

Kaoru and Shinya don't have pictures but the other three members do. I don't have any but maybe someone should put one up...

Also other artists have a 'Video' section in their singles, saying what the videos show... does anyone else think they would be a good idea?Im-All-Ears 13:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

So far, I couldn't find any decent, free images of those two members (I do a Flickr search for potential Wikipedia material every few weeks) and apparently the current climate regarding copyrighted (= fair use) images on Wikipedia does not favor the use of such media to illustrate articles on individual celebrities.

I'm not sure about music video summaries as they could easily drift off into interpretation (= original research). If any were to be added, I'd put them into the articles about the music video collections (as a track listing replacement), rather than adding a small section into each single-related article. - Cyrus XIII 02:20, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Unencyclopedic content/original research/news release/misinterpreted citations

This article needs cleaning up, to meet the Wikipedia guidelines and standards.

The sections; "2007: The Marrow of a Bone" and "Style and subject matter" need attention.

A list of sentences that need removal, or rewording; in order of appearance.

As of 2007, they have released six full-length records and are among the Japanese musicians who have enjoyed notable success in Europe and North America.

While the group's lineup has remained consistent since its inception, numerous stylistic changes have made its music's genre difficult to determine (though it is generally considered to be a form of rock music)

They first attracted mainstream attention in 1998

would later become the first of several live concerts to be released on VHS and DVD.

tours in support for the record would last well into 2004.

Becoming more involved with the international music scene,

and Internet file-sharing only.

As with numerous other Japanese bands

While there has been speculation among fans, the artists' full names are not a matter of public knowledge.

This is an encyclopedia, and nothing else. — Preceding comment signed as by 122.49.135.245 (talk · contribs) actually added by Jun kaneko (talk · contribs) 00:16, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Jun kaneko (talk · contribs), after carefully weighing WP:AGF against your previous track record,[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] I have to conclude that I'm not even going to consider any of this crap. - Cyrus XIII 02:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea of what you wrote Cyrus XIII, but I'm taking it as an insult, and assuming bad faith on your part. According to the Wikipedia guidelines; this is not "crap" and needs to be corrected. Edit: Please read the following policy Wikipedia:Civility. This is a friendly warning, as you may of been unaware of this. — Preceding comment signed as by 122.49.135.245 (talk · contribs) actually added by Jun kaneko (talk · contribs) 02:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Cyrus XIII, please read the following policy, WP:ICA. I do not appreciate your behaviour. — Preceding comment signed as by 122.49.135.245 (talk · contribs) actually added by Jun kaneko (talk · contribs) 03:04, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Article cleanup

I addressed some minor problems myself, but a couple of issues still remain.

'Unencyclopedic:' As of 2007, they have released six full-length records.

Unencyclopedic and misinterpreted citations: are among the Japanese musicians who have enjoyed notable success in Europe and North America.

'Original research:' While the group's lineup has remained consistent since its inception, numerous stylistic changes have made its music's genre difficult to determine (though it is generally considered to be a form of rock music).

Original research, which had no link to a reference: According to guitarist Kaoru, the name "Dir en grey" was chosen because it "sounded right," and is comprised of words from several languages, so that people would not be able to attach a specific meaning to it other than that the band's name itself.

Reworded: One of the shows in support for the album...

Original research: Becoming more involved with the international music scene

Removed the statement: internet file-sharing only.

Removed irrelevance: along with bands such as Megadeth, Slayer and Children of Bodom.

The section "2007: The Marrow of a Bone" needs attention, because it is becoming a section devoted to news release. And the section "Style and subject matter" needs much attention, as it contains too much original research, someone with more knowledge on the subject please reword it, or find references to add to it. Saguy1982 21:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for summarizing your concerns. I replied to your first edit at the AN/I post, and will include a note here as well.

I strongly suggest that you review the Wikipedia policies WP:Verifiable and WP:Original research. In this diff of your edit to Dir en gray, you used this edit summary:

(Minor article fixes. Original research and nencyclopedic content removed. Two sections still need work. Note on talk page)

However, your edit removed three completely solid reliable sources that support the content of the text you removed. For example you removed this text from the section about their tour success: "'' Again, all shows sold out within days.", and you removed the Wired magazine news article footnote that clearly stated in detail how fast the shows sold out.

You removed this phrase from the intro of the article:

"As of 2007, they have released six full-length records."

In your comment above, you describe that as "Unencyclopedic. That statement was directly supported by two reliable source references that you also removed, which is inappropriate. And what exactly is unencyclopedic about stating how many albums they've released?

If you think the references do not support what the text shows, then quote the reference on the talk page and show the editors there how you see the reference being misinterpreted. I've read those references myself and they seem correct. There is no reason to remove them. If you want to debate about that, do so on the talk page; but please do not remove sources without discussion.

Regarding some of your other notes above:

Unencyclopedic and misinterpreted citations: are among the Japanese musicians who have enjoyed notable success in Europe and North America. - Please quote the text of the citation you believe is misinterpreted, and tell us what your interpretation is, so we can form consensus about how to paraphrase the source for the article.

The reference mentions nothing of the sort. Saguy1982 22:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Removed irrelevance: along with bands such as Megadeth, Slayer and Children of Bodom. - I don't see this as irrelevant. It's information about the context of their performance and the other bands that they work with. And it is specifically supported by the references. As a subjective content decision regarding reliably sourced information, this requires consensus to remove it. Please do not revert again, and instead, discuss it further here, to see if other editors agree with you about removing it.

This is an article about the band Dir en grey, it is not about who performed at the particular performance. It has no relevance to this article. Saguy1982 22:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Original research, which had no link to a reference: According to guitarist Kaoru, the name "Dir en grey" was chosen because it "sounded right," and is comprised of words from several languages, so that people would not be able to attach a specific meaning to it other than that the band's name itself. - this is specifically covered in the blistering.com intgerview with Dir en grey. If there is a problem with the reference, fix it, don't remove the text.

The reference linked to that statement was not present. It was a date, and a link to a Fuse TV Wiki article. Saguy1982 22:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The other information in the lead paragraph was written in the first reference, which was incorrectly placed. It has been restored. Saguy1982 22:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you read and follow WP:CONSENSUS and Wikipedia:Bold, revert, discuss. --Parsifal _Hello 22:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I made an edit, and mentioned in the summary that there are notes on the talk page. There is nothing wrong with that Parsifal.

My edits have some merit, and some were wrong (and have been corrected) mostly they are minor insignificant details, so its nothing to get upset about, when the main goal is to improve the article.

The main problems left, are the "2007" section is becoming a news release, and needs attention by someone with more knowledge on the subject. And the "Style and subject matter" which contains too much original research, and either needs reworking, or references. Update: I also thank you Parsifal, for reworking the mistakes, but leaving edits which had merit. Saguy1982 22:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I do not consense your repeated removal of the Grammy association reference, and regarding the interview reference that you say was not present, I already told you the link was incorrect, and I told you which one is the correct one. I suggested that you fix the text and reference rather than removing them. I also suggested that you read several policies and guidelines about how to form consensus. You have not shown that you've done so.

Your interthreading of your comments between mine has confused the conversation. Please read WP:TALK and learn how to format conversations on talk pages. Thanks. --Parsifal _Hello 23:46, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[I've added indentation colons to the following to clarify the threads; the original post by Saguy1982 was not indented and merged into the subsequent post by Cyrus XIII --Parsifal _Hello 09:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)]

If the grammy reference has relevance to any sentence, then re-add it to the sentence it has relevance to. The other reference was re-added, and placed correctly at the sentence for which it is a citation. If there is a reference for the meaning of "Dir en grey", please re-add that information with its verifiable source. These changes are not significant as the article is well written, but they helped improve the article to be more encyclopedic. That is after-all what the Wikipedia is, and nothing else. Saguy1982 07:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Look - you removed the Grammy reference, so why are you asking me to re-add it? You say "IF" it "has relevance to any sentence" to re-add it... When you removed it, did you even bother to read it? I did, and I see the relevance. Now, since you removed it please restore it to the appropriate place. If you don't think it's a valid source to support the content, then please explain your objection. Why should I go and dig through it to prove to you what it says, when it was already properly placed in the article before you deleted it?

Regarding your note about the reference for the meaning of the band name, you can read the blister.com article as well as I can, so please don't ask me to do you work for you. You removed references and messed up the article. if you want to edit Wikipedia, that involves careful work of reviewing the references and making sure they go with the proper text. Just glancing at them and issuing complaints or adding tags is not helpful. If you want to make the article better, then read the references and place them in the article where the content correctly applies. If you are not interested in doing that kind of work, then stop complaining and stop removing content from articles. Thanks. --Parsifal _Hello 08:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The grammy reference had no relevance to the sentence it was added to, in fact I had to move the other reference to place it where it should be. The reference for the meaning of the bands name was not the blitzring interview, and that reference was not added to that sentence as a citation when it should of been. If you are aware of small problems with the article, and know how to fix them, then you should fix them before they become issues. Instead of being rude to other people who are trying to improve the article. Saguy1982 09:27, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

If you want to improve the article, then show us. Here is the text from the interview you said does not include the meaning of the band's name:

Blistering: When researching your band's name we found a site that said Dir En Grey loosely translates to "into the grey." Is that the meaning? And if so, why did you choose this name?

Kaoru: We have never thought of the meaning of our band name as being “inside the grey.” At the time we chose the band name, it had some meaning but right now it doesn’t express the band anymore, so it has come to not mean anything specific. We chose the band name because it sounded right, and it also reflects an image that probably doesn’t exist elsewhere.

So, what is your intention here? You've come into this article like a bull in a china shop with all sorts of strong opinions, removing references and making claims that there are problems. If you think there are problems, by all means fix them. Other editors don't owe it to you to do you work for you. If you want to make the article better, please do. But demanding that others make changes, when you are not willing to do the research, is not appropriate. Now, I've shown you the content of the reference as it applies to the name of the band. Please make the improvements that you have said are so important to you.

With the grammy reference, what problem did you see with that? What text did you think was not supported by that reference? I know what the article states, and I know what it was supporting in the article. Do you? If not, shortly, I assume Cyrus will re-add that reference. But if he doesn't, eventually I will. It would be better for you to do it, to show us that you actually want to collaborate and not edit-war. So here is your chance to show good faith. --Parsifal _Hello 09:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I never said that, in fact you are refusing to listen to what I have said. Take a look at the edit history Parsifal. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dir_en_grey&diff=169234314&oldid=169086907 Where is the blistering reference for that sentence? Show it to me, because when I look at that, I see a unverifiable reference for Fuse TV. Looking at the Grammy reference, tell me where the citation is for this sentence. "As of 2007, they have released six full-length records and are among the Japanese musicians who have enjoyed notable success in Europe and North America." Tell everyone what it is referencing Parsifal, because that is the line it was connected to. What is the citation Parsifal? You stated you know little about this topic, but you seem to have in-depth knowledge of the article, and its references. Please be more civil with your discussions and look at the history log. Furthermore, please point out, where I said that the blistering interview does not include that information, please tell me, because I'm very interested in knowing how come I can't remember. Saguy1982 19:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Parsifal already pointed out several problems with the recent changes, I'd like to add a few thoughts:

The question whether the group's international success should be mentioned in the lead, in the context of their nationality has already come up only recently, resulting in an edit war and temporary article protection, but also a consensus to be keep it. Back then, editor Notjake13 (talk · contribs) compared Dir en grey with Rammstein, as neither German nor Japanese musical acts who have archived international mainstream success are exactly a dime a dozen. The sources the respective line in the lead was presented with specifically pointed out this novelity.[6] [7]

On a side note, for the sake of context, the IP based editor who felt so strongly about the alleged inappropriateness of the line in question, identified himself as Jun kaneko (talk · contribs) in the aftermath of the earlier dispute/edit war/article lock, a person Saguy1982 now denies to be.[8] [9]

Regarding the Fuse TV source: If we were to expect all references used on Wikipedia to be readily available on the web, citing non-digital media, such as books would become quite impossible. For what it counts, the respective interview is easy enough to find on YouTube and while we do not accept this venue itself as a reliable source (for the obvious reason, that it is user-edited), citing the Fuse TV feature directly is entirely appropriate.

That all being said, I have yet to see a compelling rationale for any of the changes made since the article's October 31 revision. - Cyrus XIII 00:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Cyrus, thanks for your comments, I concur with all of them. In addition, FYI, the blistering.com interview has a text paragraph about the origin and meaning of the bands name too. --Parsifal _Hello 00:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

That might be your opinion Cyrus XIII, but that doesn't necessarily mean its true. In regards to the lead paragraph statement, and Fuse TV. I don't see any "novelty" about the band being Japanese. The same applies to German musicians. In fact, two of my favorite bands are German and Japanese. They are Enigma and the Flower Traveling Band. According to Amazon UK, the Flower Traveling Band remains quite popular. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Anywhere-Flower-Travellin-Band/dp/B000MQ50DY/ref=pd_sbs_b_shvl_img_3/203-4420607-7101513 I can think of many other German and Japanese bands with success outside their markets, but that is not the point. It is unencyclopedic, and this is an encyclopedia. And I don't agree that a reference that everyone can't verify should be added, but it appears Parsifal has an interview source for that information, so it no longer matters. Thanks Saguy1982 08:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)