Talk:St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador

Vandalism

Someone (?) at 142.162/163.?.? has been vandalizing this page a lot this month from an IP that changes within the IP group for nbnet.nb.ca. I can't prove it's one person, so I'm not sure what to do except revert.--WPaulB 18:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

General Comments

Removing link to Mile One Stadium. Irrelevant. Delief 20:18, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)

I'm a bit worried about what looks like boosterism on the page. dmlaenker 16:16, Mar 14, 2007 (NDT)

Date of founding

When was the city founded? Because some people claim that it is the oldest city in Canada it would be nice to have date. When did the first permanent inhabitants arrived?

Radio

VOCM is still the official callsign of "K-Rock 97.5"; the reference to "VOCM (AM and FM)" needs to be maintained. Bearcat 03:23, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The article states that the finder of new found land was the first to be "known to have reached mainland America." Isn't Newfoundland an island? see List of islands by area. Seabhcán 13:56, 16 May 2005 (UTC) yes of course it is, i love it too —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.151.220 (talk) 20:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

The Great Fire of 1892: Can someone confirm the date, please ?

When was The Great Fire of 1892 ? July 18 ? not July 8 ? Can someone familiar with the history of St. John's confirm the date, please ? Thanks. -- 64.229.205.2 8 July 2005 16:09 (UTC)

You may also visit the heritage website for confirmation of July 8, 1892 http://www.heritage.nf.ca/society/rhs/greatfire.html HJKeats 8 July 2005 16:18 (UTC)

Thanks. I've corrected the date in the main text, accordingly. Today is the anniversary, eh ? -- 64.229.205.2 8 July 2005 16:46 (UTC)

Oldest settlement?

Usually, historians say that the oldest settlement in north america is St.Augustine in Florida (around 1521 if I'm not mistaken). I'm not saying St.John's is not the oldest settlement in North America but it needs to be verified.

The confusion might be due to the fact that the criterion used usually is continous occupation of the settlement, something that would need to be verified in the case of st.johns. 5 december 2005

I would argue the above statement. Usally, American historians say that oldest settlement in north america is St.Augustine in Florida. However, St. Augustine wasnt founded until 1561, 64 years after St. John's. The St. Augustine wikipage, states that it is the oldest settlement in the USA, not North America. Bmpower 13:36, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

"24, 1497. His precise landing-place is a matter of much controversy, either Bonavista or St. John's. He went ashore to take possession of the land, and explored the coast for some time, probably departing on July 20. On the homeward voyage his sailors thought they were going too far north, so Cabot sailed a more southerly course, reaching Brittany instead of England. On August 6 he arrived back in Bristol.

The exact location of Cabot's first landfall is still unknown, because of lack of evidence. Many experts think it was on Cape Bonavista, Newfoundland, but others look for it in Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia, Labrador or Maine. We might never know the truth. His men may have been the first Europeans on either American continent since the Vikings: Christopher Columbus did not find the mainland until his third voyage, in 1498, and letters referring to a voyage by Amerigo Vespucci in 1497 are generally believed to have been forgeries or fabrications."

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cabot

If St.Johns was founded in 1497, then it should be clear that John Cabot landed there. However in the article, it's not stated as a fact. Therefore we should reconsider the date St.John's was founded. We should find when the first permanent settlers came to St.John's.

Plus I found this http://www.stjohns.ca/cityservices/archives/history.jsp

"The late sixteenth century saw the rise of Britain as a significant world naval power and with it, their dominant presence in the Newfoundland fishery, particularly in the area ranging from Cape Bonavista in the north to Cape Race in the south. St. John's recorded the first permanent settlers in this period with a family named Oxford establishing a plantation probably in the area west of Beck's Cove in the early 1600's. "

Therefore I think we should remove the line that says that St.Johns is the oldest settlement in North America.

I agree that the line should be reworded, it sounds like it was written by a middle school student. There were settlements in North America many thousands of years before either Newfoundland or St Augustine. It should be changed into the oldest British settlement in North America. St Augustine was officially established, and claimed by Spain in 1565. If Newfoundland was not chartered until 1583 then it was not an official city until after St Augustine. Just because ships were in ports in the area does not make it a city, there was not even a population there until the 17th century.:Chuggy 08:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

St. John's, Antigua

Why should St. John's redirect here and not to the capital of the independent state of Antigua and Barbuda? Ethnocentrism? Gerry Lynch 14:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Population? 203.148.251.155 10:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Oldest city in Canada?

According to Paul O'Neill, (The Oldest City: The Story of St. John's, Newfoundland, 2003, ISBN 0-9730271-2-6.), the city was established by Royal Charter of Queen Elizabeth I on August 5, 1583 and the first permanent settlers arrived in 1605. If anyone is going to change the article, please quote a reliable source. 152.1.111.242 17:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

From http://www.stjohns.ca/cityservices/archives/history.jsp

The late sixteenth century saw the rise of Britain as a significant world naval power and with it, their dominant presence in the Newfoundland fishery, particularly in the area ranging from Cape Bonavista in the north to Cape Race in the south. St. John's recorded the first permanent settlers in this period with a family named Oxford establishing a plantation probably in the area west of Beck's Cove in the early 1600's.

The first permanent settlers arrived in the early 1600's. until someone can show that they arrived before 1608, then we shouldn't say that St. John's is the oldest city.

Also, if St. John's is the oldest city in Canada, can anyone give us the date? I mean the city is allegedly older than 400 years old. In that case, there should have been celebrations for its 400th anniversay. Can anyone clarify? Officialy, how old is this city?

St. John's is not the oldest city in North America. Mexico city is.

Clarify the definition of city used in these claims. St. John's had an anniversary celebration of 500 years in 1997, but technically, that's years of continuous yearly European settlement, permanent or otherwise. It certainly was not a city in 1497 by population standards or infrastructure. That's simply when Newfoundland, and possibly St. John's harbour was discovered by Europeans (technically the Vikings were first, around the year 1000 but that wasn't a permanent occupation). Because it was the most easterly port in the area and had an ice-free harbour, it was quickly turned into a place from which commerce flowed in the form of fish. It wasn't incorporated as a city until 1921, by the Newfoundland government. It's a '500 year old city', beacuse it's a city now which was founded or deemed in existence for 500 years in some form. The first pernament settlement attempt was in 1583, but I can't find any sources which state St John's was permanent until around 1610. It is one of the oldest permanent European settlements in North America.--WPaulB 15:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WPaulB (talk • contribs) 15:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

"Most bars per square foot"

Per square foot of WHAT? This is a pseudo-statistic. What is the denominator used to calculate it? And where do other streets, in other cities, rank so that the originator of the statistic can conclude that "George Street has the most bars per square foot", whatever that means? Mathematically, it would seem to mean that George Street has small bars, and not much else.

Similarly, "most bars per capita". Which city has the SECOND MOST? How and when was this figure quantified? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.105.61.109 (talk) 00:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Please see my post on Talk:George Street, St. John's, though I am certainly not the originator of the sentence in question. AshleyMorton 02:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

United Irish Uprising

should there be any mention of the planned rebellion that occured during 1800 United Irish Uprising as a result of the wexford rebellion of 1798? it was small but of note

Not to be confused with Disclaimer

Why do we need a page-top disclaimer "Not to be confused with Saint John, New Brunswick"? Is it really that much of a problem? The article title makes it clear you're talking about Newfoundland and Labrador. On the Saint John, New Brunswick page, similar information is relegated to a note at the bottom.--WPaulB 17:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Logo stjohns.png

Image:Logo stjohns.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:19, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Miscellany

I've moved or removed most of the elements of the Miscellany section. I think the "lowest crime rate" reference belongs in the Demographics section - does anyone have a statistical reference for this? I have no idea where the "most bars per square foot" reference should go.Vulcan's Forge 01:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Section removed. I found a StatsCan reference for crime figures this week; hope to add some better text and some figures to support the Demographics Crime subsection soon.Vulcan's Forge 02:52, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Climate Graph

I added a climate graph. Numbers are rounded, readers can click the source link to see exact numbers; you can add that note if you like though I don't think it is entirely necessary.

If you think the graph is too distracting, simply change class="wikitable collapsible" to class="wikitable collapsible collapsed". That will reduce the graph to just the blue bar with the words "St. John's Climatological Data [show]", and it's pretty self explanatory on what the reader should do there. :)

The climate graph has been a little project of mine and I encourage feedback to continue to improve these graphs. :) Thanks.

More here.

vid 01:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Article name should be St. John's, Newfoundland

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No consensus to move page, per discussion below. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

---

This article should be renamed to the format St. John's, Newfoundland. There is no need to add the full, verbose name of the province, when the city could be quite adequately disambiguated by using the name of the island on which it is located. (note 1.1 million ghits for "St. John's, Newfoundland" OR "St John's, Newfoundland", but only 400,000 ghits for "St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador" OR "St John's, Newfoundland and Labrador")

WP:NAME says "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature", and that principle has not been applied here.

St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador should of course be retained as a redirect.

See also discussion on renaming of related categories at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_November_26#St._John.27s. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose move First, the google hits survey is faulty as all the uses of "St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador" will show up in the search for "St. Johns, Newfoundland". In other words, the 400,000 is included in the 1.1 million. But in any case, I disagree because the name of the province is Newfoundland and Labrador, and the trend it now towards using that name. It's similar to Trinidad and Tobago — we refer to San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago, not "San Fernando, Trinidad", even though the second would be a shorter and completely satisfactory way of disambiguating the name. We do this because the common usage is to use the name of the political entity "Trinidad and Tobago", and we tend to use DAB terms for place names that are political entities. We use Honolulu, Hawaii and not "Honolulu, Oahu" (first is political, second is geographical). Similarly, it's common usage to use the political term "N&L" when referring to places in that province. "Newfoundland" is generally only used, as far as I can tell, in historical documents or in discussing the history of the province, and occasionally when discussing the place as a geographical island as opposed to a political entity. Finally, from WP:Naming conventions:

The canonical form for cities in Canada is City, Province/Territory (the "comma convention"). ... For the easternmost Canadian province, the canonical form is "City, Newfoundland and Labrador"; although they might be referred to as such in casual conversation, a city's proper legal designation is never just "City, Newfoundland" or "City, Labrador".

— Snocrates 12:29, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. The naming convention for Canadian cities, where it is determined that disambiguation is necessary, is City, Province. Not sure that I agree that the name of this province is "verbose" -- that's the name of the province. Skeezix1000 (talk) 15:47, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. St. John's, Newfoundland is already a redirect to the current article, so having to type "and Labrador" is unnecessary. St. John's is the capital of a province called "Newfoundland and Labrador". There is no province called "Newfoundland" anymore, and articles should reflect that. We don't have "Victoria, Vancouver Island" so there shouldn't be a "St. Johns, Newfoundland" (referring to the island) either. vıdıoman (talk • contribs) 16:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. The common usage may always remain, but not all English-speakers use or know the common usage "St. John's, Newfoundland". Web hits are also elusive - there are plenty of websites by people who were born on the Island of Newfoundland, and just call their birthplace the non-politically correct "Newfoundland", not "Newfoundland and Labrador" because it's a personal site and doesn't have to meet disambiguation standards. An encyclopedia is not a place to use relatively common usage. It's for everyone, so the more "verbose" correct name should be used. The searching problem won't really affect places in Newfoundland anyway.--WPaulB (talk) 17:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. We need to stick to the correct name here. The only way this move would be acceptable is if there were a consensus to move every community on the island to "City, Newfoundland" and every community on the mainland to "City, Labrador"; St. John's cannot be disambiguated differently from any other disambiguated community in the province. And that consensus simply isn't going to happen. Bearcat (talk) 04:36, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Did anyone read the naming guideline? It doesn't say "use what's legally correct". And if people are using St John's Newfoundland on their own sites, that's a pretty good indication of where the common usage is. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:13, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment But it's not as clear-cut as you are making it out to be. You might be right if people hardly ever used the full name, but there are vast numbers of websites that use either. When both are used extensively, it just makes sense to use the legal name by default, especially when that conforms with naming conventions about places in Canada that were adopted by consensus AND it conforms to what is done with naming other articles with similar problems, as with cities in Trinidad and Tobago: to replicate your google search: "San Fernando, Trinidad" = 46,500 hits; "San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago" = 13,500 hits. Subtracting the second from the first, we still have a more than 2:1 advantage for "San Fernando, Trinidad" being used, but the WP article is at San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago. If you are adamant about a change such as this, we need to work on changing many more too. I know this is a type of WP:WAX argument, but sometimes it's worth seeing what the general pattern in is WP. Snocrates 12:17, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment St. John's, Newfoundland already re-directs to St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador. I see absolutely no point in moving the article. If people use St. John's, Newfoundland it will wind up in the same place. It really doesn't matter. vıdıoman (talk • contribs) 11:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment The people who use it on their personal websites are not necessarily using it in enyclopedic fashion, and they don't adequately represent the entire English-speaking world who will read Wikipedia.--WPaulB (talk) 19:34, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. The standard is city, province. While it's quite true to say St. John's, Newfoundland, we need a standard for city naming. We are not about to have Sydney, Cape Breton or Victoria, Vancouver Island either. DoubleBlue (Talk) 07:37, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.