Talk:Murder

/Archive 1

Statistics

The statistical entries on prevalence of murder in various countries are presently scattered throughout the article. I'd suggest they'd be better gathered into one section, perhaps in a wikitable. Comments? LeadSongDog 14:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Does this link belong in this article?

The very last external link, Murder Capital of the World. - Pop Rock Band from Boston, does not seem to belong in this article on the crime. I'm not removing it in case its inclusion was previously discussed but could someone else involved in this article take a look at it? Thanks, CWPappas 04:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I removed it as spam. Bearian 19:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Third degree murder

Can someone clarify this in the Murder#Degrees of murder section? It appears to be rather vague, and I can seem to imagine any "other murder" that wouldn't already be classified in the first two degrees. Is it a result of my ignorance in the matter of murder classification, or is the claim in need of assessment/improvement?--C.Logan 00:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Clean up

I was bold. I edited out lots of extra verbiage, and added cites and tags. Bearian 19:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Parody

Just in case anyone else see this, it is a parody: Man Sentenced To 3 Months Probation For 17th-Degree Murder, 'The Onion, October 16, 2007, retrieved 10/17/07 [1]. Bearian 19:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Abortion See Also, II

I have removed the link to abortion from the See Also section for the following reason: abortion is currently legal in the USA and most of the western world. Thus, it does not fit the stated definition at the beginning of the article. Whether or not you personally believe it should be illegal has no bearing on whether it currently is or not. Having the link in the See Also section strongly implies that abortion is an instance of murder, which it is not, under current legal codes. WP is not a political battleground (or shouldn't be, at least), so don't reinsert it until the government(s) converge on its illegality. 24.95.50.34 05:39, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Linking abortion is merely pushing someone's own point of view.—Esurnir 00:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Archiving

I propose to archive the talk page which become excessively long up to the Statistic section. Is there anyone who think we should do something else or do you agree ?—Esurnir 00:14, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Undeclared POV?

The introduction, and specifically the section beginning Legal Analysis of Murder seems to be written from a specifically American point of view (is the "felony/murder doctrine" used more widely?), but there's nothing to indicate this in the text; it appears to be implying that this legal analysis is generally appropriate, regardless of jurisdiction. There's a vague mention of Common Law, but that applies to most of the Commonwealth, as well as to America. I'm not 100% sure that this doesn't apply to Common Law jurisdictions in general, but if someone who knows more than m could see if they think it needs a rewrite... --wintermute (talk) 21:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The Legal Analysis of Murder section takes the English common law approach to murder. Roughly 2/3 of US states have changed the definition of murder to a variation of the following:

Model Penal Code. Part II. Definition of Specific Crimes. Offenses Involving Danger to the Person. Article 210. Criminal Homicide.

210.1 Criminal Homicide (1)A person is guitly of criminal homicide if he purposely, knowingly, recklessly or negligently causes the death of another human being. (2)Criminal homicide is murder, manslaughter or negligent homicide 210.2 Murder (1)Except "a homicide...committed under the influence of extreme mental or emotional disturbance for which there is reasonable explanation or excuse," criminal homicide constitutes murder when: (a)it is committed purposely or knowingly; or (b)it is committed recklessly under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life. Such recklessness and indifference are presumed if the actor is engaged or is an accomplice in the commission of, or an attempt to commit, or flight after committing or attempting to commit robbery, rape or deviate sexual intercourse by force or threat of force, arson burglary, kidnapping or felonious escape.

2.02.(2)(a)Purposely. A person acts purposely with respect to a material element of an offense when:(i)if the element involves the nature of his conduct or a result thereof, it is his conscious object to engage in conduct of that nature or to cause such result; (b)Knowingly. A person acts knowingly with respect to a material element of an offense when: (i)if the element involves the nature of his conduct, he is aware that it is practically certain that his conduct will cause such a result; (c) Recklessly. A person acts recklessly with respect to a material element of an offense when he consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the material element exists or will result from his conduct. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that, considering the nature and purpose of the actor's conduct and the circumstances known to him, its disregard involves a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a law-abiding person would observe in the actor's situation.

That is the uniform example of the definition of murder in the majority of U.S. jurisdictions. A reckless homicide that does not manifest extreme indifference to human life is manslaughter. Notice the absence of "malice aforethought" in the Model Penal Code definition. Murder is an English word that had a very specific definition at common law. That definition is represented here. Technically, any discussion of "murder" in a non-English common law system should be described as "criminal homicide." Criminal homicide is the neutral term. Because this is an article about murder, the English common law definition is appropriate and is intrinsically a world wide view of the English term. While some may prefer the U.S. definition here, the general term is more useful to English speakers wishing to know how native English speakers handle their homicides. The specifics of murder vary greatly among jurisdictions. The U.S. has 52+ definitions with 2/3 adopting variations of the above. The general definition given is sufficient and does not overly confuse the issue by discussing the differences around the world. Legis Nuntius (talk) 04:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Murder outside of real-life

The topic of murder figures large in fiction (just ask Miss Marple), movies, et cetera. Some mention of the subject should be made, even if it's just a link to another article.LeadSongDog (talk) 22:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality background/murder in the Bible

This section needs a NPOV for two reasons

• It disputes early translations of the bible such as the Latin vulgate. The number of Orthodox Christian religions including Catholics, which use the "early translations" exceed 1 billion. this is obviously a Protestant/Orthodox issue and unnecessary to a legal article on murder.
• The section is entitled "Background", when it is essentially Murder in Abrahamic tradition. The 12 commandments is not the first instance of murder as a crime. Murder in the bible is not the background. Western cultures rejected the eye for an eye theory by grading murders. Manslaughter or negligent homicide would necessarily require execution under eye for an eye. Supreme Court Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes among others identified this distinction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Legis Nuntius (talk • contribs) 15:19, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I've attempted to clean this up some, but it still needs work, especially because it completely lacks any Jewish or Islamic interpretation: does it differ substantially? How? Also NPOV would demand comparable paras for other major religions' prohibitions.LeadSongDog (talk) 22:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Opening Blurb

i added this '(and often the most serious)' but please feel free to remove if you think it is too messy 82.41.253.56 (talk) 13:46, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

unclear

The article is rather unclear as in my opinion too often the word 'murder'is used where it should be 'killing' or 'homicide'. Definitions like "it is or is not murder if the murderer....." That already implies that it is a murder otherwise there would be no murderer. Also, I get the feeling that the definitions of murder in the article regarding the USA, do not differentiate clearly enough with 'manslaugther' The general definition of murder in this article is 'with Malice aforethought'(which basically is 'intent') whereas 'manslaugther' (in it's own article) can also be with intent (voluntary manslaugther).

As such, the section on murder in the netherlands -though largely correct in its own right- combines discusion of the two: "Murder" is planned and with the intention to kill, whereas 'doodslag' (literally 'deadbeating') sees the intent to kill at th every moment but without planning. 'doodslag' therefore could indeed be compared to 'voluntary manslaugther' but the two systems do not fully cover eachother. [ed] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.159.134.161 (talk) 12:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder Article