Talk:Sinking of HMAS Sydney

Note for editors

This article could easily become GA, with little work. Evan^{(Salad dressing is the milk of the infidel!)} 18:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Why does this page give HMAS Sydney as 9000 ton but the HMAS Sydney (1934) page gives 6830t. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rubik3 (talk • contribs) 03:12, August 21, 2007 (UTC).

Guns Trained or Not Trained on Kormoran?

This article says that the Sydney's guns were trained on the Kormoran, but the Kormoran page says that her guns were not trained on the raider. Which article is right? 74.103.98.163 00:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal

As the title suggests this article should be about the battle. Therefore most of the text in the Attempts to find the wrecks section should be shifted over to HMAS Sydney (1934)#Searches. What do the masses say? Nomadtales 00:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

• Agree - the searches seem to have only ever been focused on finding Sydney so the material doesn't really belong in this article. --Nick Dowling 00:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
• Disagree - the finding of one ship would be a step towards finding the other one. Because of the history of World War II, and Germany's losses in it, Kormoran is not as well-known in it's own country. Nevertheless, I'm sure it would make the news in Germany if either ship were found. If Sydney is found, it would be significant enough to be mentioned in the Kormoran article — and vice versa; we would end up with two virtually identical sections in the two ship articles. Grant | Talk 01:51, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment - We seem to have already two virtually identical articles, just with one in particlar, the article supposed to be just about the Battle, having more info than the other. Nomadtales 02:00, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment - I know. We are Australian and that leads us to focus on Sydney. But we have to bear in mind that this is an international encyclopledia and not an Australian one. Personally I don't think the Sydney article is really the right place for a full description of the search, which is in reality a search for both ships. Grant | Talk 03:23, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I can't remember reading about any effort being put into finding Kormoran - is her location even a mystery? (eg, did her surviving crew record her position when she sank?). --Nick Dowling 03:32, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

The location of Kormoran is unknown because the German accounts are contradictory.[1] HMAS Sydney Search Pty Ltd has been attempting to find it as a first step to finding Sydney.[2] Grant | Talk 05:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - "Battle" entry should be about the battle only. But rather than move everything to the Sydney article (making it seem like the searches have mostly been for the Sydney rather than both ships) can't a new page be created for searches for the Sydney and Kormoran and linked to from the other pages -- looks like there's enough commentary for this. Dawnfrenzy 14:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Agree - Well, it is "HMAS Sydney Search Pty Ltd"! Put this in the HMAS Sydney article. No-one's really looking for Kormoran. Anyway, there's at least one precedent: Finding the wreck is described in the Bismarck article, not its sinking page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.16.97.227 (talk • contribs) August 15 2007 (UTC)
  • Agree the battle article isnt the right place, but moving it to the Sydney article isnt either as unlike the Bismark its two vessels and finding one will trigger searches for the other. It should be moved into Search for HMAS Sydney and HSK Kormoran with each vessel article having a brief summary and a link to the search article. An additional benefit will be that when found Wikinews will be able to link into the detail on the searches, especially given that the current claim isnt expected to be the Sydney there are going to be more searches. Gnangarra 01:11, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak agree. I can see the logic and I could live with that. Grant | Talk 09:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Agree that seems like a sensible and workable compromise. --Nick Dowling 11:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Senior Office or Inexperienced Captain?

After its return from the Mediterranean, command of Sydney passed from the celebrated Captain John Collins to the relatively inexperienced Captain Joseph Burnett.

Many also found it difficult to believe that a senior officer like Burnett

Which one is it? Although this could mean that he was a Senior Officer, but a Junior Captain. Any clarification on this? Heirware (talk) 06:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Without checking one of my references, I believe that Burnett had spent relatively little time at sea in the years before he took command of Sydney, so he was both experianced as a staff officer (and a good one by all accounts) and inexperianced as a cruiser captain. --Nick Dowling (talk) 07:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Conspiracy Theories ?

Under the 'Controversy' section a number of 'conspiracy theories' are mentioned. I don't believe any of these involve a conspiracy per se - the chain of events is simply unknown...no one is actively trying to hide the truth.

Because of this I have removed the word conspiracy from this section.

ahpook (talk) 12:41, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

They arent conspiracies but they speculation that has been commonly reported inrelation to the event so they should be in there in some form Gnangarra 08:09, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

"HSK" prefix

I don't think "HSK" is a real prefix. Nazi Germany didn't use a prefix in front of their ship names. HSK is a suffix identifying the ship type. If there aren't any objections, I'd like to rename the article and then update it to remove the HSK prefixes. TomTheHand (talk) 21:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - it's clearly an abbreviation for a type of ship, not a prefix. Maralia (talk) 21:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Anyone have a reference for that? Socrates2008 (Talk) 21:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Um, do you have a reference for "HSK" being a prefix used by the Kriegsmarine? TomTheHand (talk) 21:19, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, not taking shots at anyone - just want to ensure that this isn't changed through original-research-by-consensus. Socrates2008 (Talk) 22:05, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

It's pretty clear to me from the Kormoran article that saying 'the HSK Kormoran' is the equivalent of using the shorthand 'the SSN Virginia' for 'the nuclear attack sub Virginia' - a ship type, not a naval prefix. Maralia (talk) 03:32, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Understood. Unfortunately this is a rough situation for me—I understand where you're coming from, but I'm sort of being asked to prove a negative: it's hard to find a source that says that HSK isn't a real prefix. Conway's All The World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946 does make it clear that HSK stands for Handels-Stör-Kreuzer (commerce-disruption cruiser) and identifies the ship type. TomTheHand (talk) 03:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Dunno if this helps in any way, but HMAS Sydney Search Pty Ltd are currently using the prefix in their press releases (rightly or wrongly). Also, I'm not clear how "HSK" differs from say, "RMS" (e.g. RMS Titanic) Socrates2008 (Talk) 06:16, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

For the record, although the term "Handels-Stör-Kreuzer" isn't unknown, most sources concerning these ships use the term "Hilfskreuzer" (HK). As does the German Wikipedia. A book concerning the career of another raider (the Penguin) was actually subtitled HK-33 (the raiders received random numbers instead of name, although all took a name eventually. "Penguin" didn't get named until she reached Antarctic waters). I submit that simply for continuity with the German Wiki and also for sheer common sense (anything that wanders around and destroys commerce could be called a "Handelsstörkreuzer", "Hilfskruezer", at least, means an auxilary vessel), that "Hilfskreuzer" is the better name and "HK" the better prefix. That's IF you have to use a prefix at all. I don't believe it represents standard Kriegsmarine practice and seems to have been added largely for symmetry.