Wikipedia talk:Verifiability

Non-English sources

As more and more articles are relying on non-English sources, and the policy seems widely misunderstood, I suggest that the text be amended for clarity and brevity. This arises out of a discussion at WT:MHCOORD#Non-English sources.

Unless anyone objects, I propose replacing the existing text with the revised text in a few days time. Thoughts? --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 04:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Disclosure: I've left messages on the talk pages of all editors participating in previous discussions here during the last six months. --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 04:46, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• I don't see a compelling improvement, and the line "Only reliable sources should be used" implies that non-reliable sources can be used if they are English-language. This is not something we want to encourage. If you do change it, please reword this line to something like "*Extreme care should be taken to only use reliable sources," which does not imply that unreliable sources are acceptable in English, only that some level of care less than "extreme" is used to keep out English-language non-reliable sources. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 04:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I've tried to make the text more direct and provide a checklist of requirements. Good point about "extreme care", --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 04:46, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• The reliable sources line is instruction creep, even more so on this page which is about reliable sources; it should be struck entirely. Also, I don't agree that the line, "Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors" should be eliminated; that introduces too much chance of original research by Wiki editors, of the type I've had to deal with many times. Translations from reliable sources are preferred. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I support the change that says explicit translated quotes come into play only when an issue is actually "subsequently challenged", rather than being obligatory from the start. I've always found that requirement unrealistic and an unnecessary burden, and not really matching consensus about actual good practice in the areas I work in (where non-English sources are extremely common). Other than that, I don't see a substantial improvement in the new text but nothing I'd seriously oppose either. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:26, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I support as flexible approach to foreign language sources as possible. If everything in the encyclopedia had to be verifiable by every editor we would be dumbing down. As a non-scientist I cannot see the difference between complex science articles which need a basic knowledge of the subject to understand the sources, and sources in a foreign language, I certainly think we should change things top make it easier to use foreign language sources without being challenged by someone merely because they do not understand that language or think, as I have seen time and again, that only English language sources should be used. I think foreign language sources should be dealt with in exactly the same way as English language sources. Thanks, SqueakBox 05:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed in principle. There are many cases where a direct translated quotation doesn't even help substantially. Many statements are based on a summarising reading of large passages of text that can't be pinned down to a single quotable sentence or paragraph. If you don't trust me summarising a non-English source correctly, why would you trust me translating (and possibly ripping out of context) some passage to back it up? And on the whole, it is true that verifiability must be made possible, but that doesn't mean it must be effortless or possible for anyone. If I work from a rare book, it's only verifiable for someone who can afford traveling to a library. If I work from a highly specialised academic text, it's only verifiable for someone who has the relevant education. If I work from a non-English text, it's only verifiable for someone who has a friend who speaks that language. All the same thing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You have done more than merely amend the text for "clarity and brevity". You should have been clearer about what you are trying to achieve, and why. I don't mind the reduction of the burden of providing quotes, but I do have some other concerns:

1. The first sentence is a run-on sentence and should be broken up. (Yes the old policy also starts with a run-on sentence. Two wrongs don't make a right.)
2. You have (inadvertently?) tightened the requirement for when a non-English source can be used, from when no English source is available to when no English source exists. This is a significant tightening of the rule, and I oppose it entirely.
3. I disagree with the removal of the prescription that "Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors." Translation by WP editors is dangerously close to original research, especially when material is being "directly" quoted, or when it is controversial.
4. You have removed the ability to directly quote a foreign source in the original language without providing a translation. This is rarely useful, but I don't think policy should forbid it.

--Srleffler (talk) 05:40, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• No need to rush into it. Give the discussion some time. Mostly, I agree with davidwr's statement. I do like the "of equal quality" concept, but I'm unhappy with the inadequate way we handle citations and the reliability of sources when articles are translated from other wikis. Other languages on WP often take different approaches, such as a simple list of refs for the whole article. We need a better way...LeadSongDog (talk) 05:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• The revised text is much improved. I still think "Care" should be "Extreme care." It would also help to either say or link to a statement that says that if an unfamiliar non-English source is used, the author should either link to an English-language Wikipedia page or reliable English-language web site that makes it clear that it is a reliable source, or should make the claim himself on the article talk page. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 05:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I would say only the last item is needed. Foreign language sources (for instance - in English on :fr ... ;o) correspond to two different problems with respect to verifiability: (1) find the book, and (2) check the translation. There is nothing specific in "finding the book", the general comments on verifiability apply to that case as well. In a way, if the source can be easily found in a broad choice of places, it is close to be common knowledge for which a specific source is not required in the first place, so why bother to use a foreign one (unless the article is translated, of course)? When there is no choice, use whatever source you can get, when there is a choice, use the most reliable and easily found, and in all cases, use common sense... The only specific problem is the translation, which can be biased and must be checked from this point of view. Indeed, if this verification is needed, the original quote must be somewhere in the article, so that any reader fluent in the corresponding language can verify it, without having to refer to the original source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michelet (talk • contribs) 06:38, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• I largely agree with Roger's proposed rewarding, noting however that unless one knows the language, the source will always be unreliable. On the other hand, if the article can not be constructed without even one major English source for the subject, is it notable to the English user? It seems to me that non-English sources can only be used as supporting sources, and not as primary sources for the Wikipedia entry. English Wikipedia is after all meant to be used largely by the English speakers. It would be far better if editors used one solid English source to base their article on, and used other non-English sources as supporting sources, than to try and piece it together from a multitude of relatively unavailable works.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 06:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• Some of the statements in this discussion are alarming because they misinterpret the very policy they are about: a Wiki article can't be used as an indication of reliability because Wiki articles aren't reliable, and nothing about an article being in another language makes it non-reliable. (Without mentioning the issue of misunderstanding of the notability guideline.) Re-iterating, I don't support repeating wording that non-English sources should be reliable on a policy page that deals with reliability of sources (all sources should be reliable, and the way we measure that is the same in any language, and has to do with fact-checking and editorial oversight), and I don't support deletion of the wording that would encourage editor translations over reliable source translations. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I suggest a slight change because often there is more than one translation possible. This is especially true of old sources. We should make it policy that all translations in reliable sources available to the editors are included.

Regarding material not sufficiently covered in English, one has to keep in mind that this encyclopedia is not limited to the Anglosphere. Wandalstouring (talk) 07:43, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I am sure you don't mean what you said about including all available reliable translations. If it's a quotation from an ancient Greek philosopher there may easily be dozens of slightly different translations, including some obviously incorrect ones in otherwise reliable sources. Your proposal would force us to include all the major variants, including any non-notable wrong ones, even in situations where the differences don't even matter and no sane person would challenge anything. --Hans Adler (talk) 09:51, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks for heading up but sorry, I disagree, so oppose. I, living in a non-English country, may know an English translated or original version exist of the resource I may rely. But it doesn't mean it is easily available for me. It sounds just for me "if you are non English and not living in English speaking country, go away". It may reduce the usability and reliability of the Enlgish Wikipedia in entire, despite of the intention of the proposer, I'm afraid. --Aphaia (talk) 07:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
• As the proposal to cite "reliable English-language web site that makes it clear that it is a reliable source", it is not practical, since not in every field English has the reliable source. They just could have not been introduced properly into the anglophone world, particularly the matter in concern is not popular in English speaking countries. It is not a way of encyclopedia, but rather a "reference for dummies". in my opinion.--Aphaia (talk) 07:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: I agree with the comments above. I currently live in Spain and it's almost impossible for me to gain English source material in a Spanish-speaking country. I am limited to what I brought over from the United States and the little that is sold in Spain in English. That said, sometimes Spanish sources are much more reliable than their English counterparts, especially when in regards to specific topics. For example - the Spanish Civil War. But, I would say that this isn't only true for Spanish-language books, but for every language. By suggesting that an English source should be used over a foreign-language source is to effectively shut out a large portion of Wikipedia's editors. In any case, I'd like to know what exactly makes an English source more verifiable than a Spanish source? Who, really, will buy either book to verify that the facts are true? Why should we assume that there are no Spanish-speakers on Wikipedia? My point is that there is as much of a chance that another editor will be able to verify the Spanish source, than one would be able to verify the English source. I guess I'm talking more about a specific range of articles, where book sources are the only plausible sources (such as military history), otherwise I'd agree that an English media source (if available) would be probably be better. JonCatalán (talk) 09:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
  • What makes an English source more verifiable than a Spanish one? That more of us can verify it. You don't need to buy a book to check it; many books are available, in whole or in part, on the Web, and almost all books are available through Interlibrary Loan. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Okay, so are you suggesting that to pass FAC we should have people look at the books being used? Because, that's the only way an English source is truly more veriefiable. 99.9% of the time the sources will not be checked by hand, and so in the end a Spanish source is just as reliable as an English source. JonCatalán (talk) 14:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
      • That would be an improvement over many present FA comments (Looks good to me/ Oppose, it has normal spaces in the footnotes). But the point is not our procedures; it is that reader should be able to verify, if he wishes to. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

• Comment If a foreign laguage source is being used, I think it preferable to reference it untranslated unless a quote is eplcitly needed. In working on Troilus I found extracts from both the Iliad and the Aeneid whose meanings were disputed. There was also an issue with verse translation tending to be freer than some (but not all) prose translations. Quoting translations, as suggested by some editors, is therefore often a means of introducing unreliabilty and a very literal and unidiomatic transation by a Wikipedian could well be more reliable than a published translation intnded o be easu n theeye or ear. There is also an issue with copyright So early twentieth century works culd involve the foreign language source being out of copyright but the best English translations might be in copyright. This might be particularly problemtic to poetry where a quotation might constitute a significant proprotion of the text.--Peter cohen (talk) 10:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
• Comment Agree largely with srleffler's suggested new wording and with everything said above except for Wandalstouring and mrg3105. Are we going to say "Care should be taken", or "Extreme care", or leave it out because it's redundant with other things on this page? (I'd suggest "Care", and leave it to guideline pages to work out over time what that means.) How do we handle the editor who translates from a language no one else on Wikipedia knows, who points out that our new policy doesn't allow us to reject his reliable source, because there's no alternative? I've heard people in the German and French irc channels say that they have to deal with the issues around borrowing from English all the time; perhaps we should ask them, because apparently, we don't struggle with this issue that often (Sandy could only remember one case at WP:FAC, which she mentions at WT:MHCOORD#Non-English sources). I like Sandy's point that some things matter more than others (direct quotes, BLP issues), and I think that's probably important enough to make it into this text, even though of course we talk about the same issues as pertaining to English here and at WP:BLP. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 13:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

A few points. Available to whom? Surely each editor can only put in citations available to them. Other editors may find better ones. Sometimes it makes sense to give more than one.

I'm not sure what mrg means by primary & supporting sources. It simply isn't always practical to follow the approach suggested. Let me illustrate with my work on Pali Canon. There can be no question of notability here: this is the scripture of 100,000,000 people. Yet I've had to draw citations from all sorts of sources. One was a German book, untranslated as far as I know. Another illustrates a point not mentioned in the page or discussion I think: a case where the foreign original is likely to be more readily available to many people than the English translation. This is because the original paper was published in a leading German journal, which would be available in most major university libraries, while the translation appeared in an obscure Indian publication, which is likely to be less readily available in most of the English-speaking world (except maybe India). I put both in, English 1st. Peter jackson (talk) 15:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Available means available to the editor adding the material, of course. If you have a book in German, use it. You might want to do a Google Books search though to see if the relevant section is available online in an English translation. If your source is a German website, definitely do a web search to see if comparable information is available elsewhere in English. If you use the German reference, another editor may come along and replace it with a reference to an English translation, or perhaps to some other work in English that provides the same information.--Srleffler (talk) 05:15, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with User:Michelet:

• The first two caveats are redundant as they apply equally to English-language sources and are expressed in the main body of our policies on sourcing already.
• The last sentence of the third caveat can be shortened to "Translations published by reliable sources are preferred".

Furthermore in the main body, "This allows other readers and editors to more easily verify that the source material has been used correctly." is imprecise - most readers may be able to more easily verify the English language version, but not necessarily all (due to geographical factors, language knowledge, etc.), so who are "other" editors in the sense of the original text? What is actually meant is that all English-speaking people who read the article will not have any additional barriers in checking the source due to language; the most precise wording would say something to that effect. Knepflerle (talk) 18:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Surely to avoid "additional barriers in checking the source" we would simply choose to both quote and cite the original language material and the translation(s) used. If no published translation is available, I see no great problem in offering one, so long as it is clearly identified as "loosely translated". Side by side with the original, translation errors will be corrected soon enough if the article is truly notable. WPBabel can assist in identifying suitably-equipped editors to make, vet and repair translations. This is one way we can make significant inroads in reducing systemic bias against non-anglosphere content.LeadSongDog (talk) 19:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Knepflerle, this is the English Wikipedia. I think it's fair to assume that the vast majority of readers of this Wikipedia can more easily deal with an English-language source than one in another language. I don't see any need for the more convoluted text you propose.--Srleffler (talk) 05:15, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I did not propose a wording. You may feel any tightening of the wording is unnecessary, but if other people do they are free to suggest a wording which is hopefully convolution-free. Knepflerle (talk) 08:45, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure how many respondents here are or have been professional translators, but I am one. There is a basic issue here that no one seems to have addressed, which is that each word in a given language can cover a multitude of meanings, and more importantly, feelings. It is rare for any word or phrase in the target language to correspond exactly, in every way, with an original word or phrase. Even if the basic meaning is approximately correct, the associated feelings can be 180 degrees away, and the correct translation might not just be hard to find, it may, probably will, be non-existent. I have seen on several articles recently that editors have attempted to support their biases by introducing terms that hit the reader in the face with their emotional impact, claiming (rightly) that they are giving the "correct" dictionary translation of the source's words. In my opinion, translated sources should be avoided almost entirely. I would support a change to this section, but not starting, "As this is an English encyclopedia..." but rather something like, "Bearing in mind the great difficulty in accurately rendering controversial ideas from one language to another..." Rumiton (talk) 15:05, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for a thoughtful entry, Rumiton. I've dabbled in translating enough to know I don't want to try to do it for a living :-)

First, a question. Why exclusively controversial? That is the most delicate, but certainly not the only situation in which one might want/need to use a non-English source. One might want to reference a news article or a scientific paper, for example.

Second, people are kidding themselves if they believe that an English language text prepared by groups of people, scientific researchers for example, who don't use written English much and perhaps don't speak it at all, is going to impart exactly what they mean to say. I've many times smiled to myself reading things that one really has to know both languages to even understand. Probably everyone has done so, re the directions which come with some imported products. Sometimes so-called English texts need "translation", too.

So, controversial subjects are one thing, but citing sources in foreign languages doesn't always need to be problematic. IMO. --Hordaland (talk) 19:53, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure of your point. You seem to be accurately illustrating the difficulties in all translational work. If technical people and other non-linguists knew how bad their own earnestly made translations often are, they would be horrified. And I agree, we could leave out the word controversial. Rumiton (talk) 16:26, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, let's discourage extremist readings in non-controversial situations as much as possible. I have just witnessed the deletion of an article on a notable subject as unsourced, when nobody actually challenged the content. I see a certain danger that, e.g., an article about a fifteenth century French count will be deleted by an admin not interested in the subject, based on the rationale that the article is sourced only to a French book, while a Google search shows that twenty years earlier an English book about the same subject had appeared. In general expert editors should have the option to discard all available English sources as unreliable. It makes no sense to restrict this before someone actually challenges the neutrality of an article. After all, the vast majority of our articles are not controversial, and we have no interest to make them so. --Hans Adler (talk) 20:28, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

But in controversial article -- eg the New Chronology (Fomenko-Nosovsky) article alleging no human history before 800 AD, a number of references are entirely in Russian - despite the existence of English translations of his books. I have no way of knowing whether his claims are being reported correctly, what the context is where the claim is something written in such a way as it is to vague to check without further information, etc. I am seriously tempted to remove all the Russian language references (and whatever is referenced) and ask other editors if they want to replace them to replace them with references I can verify somehow (and in this case the books are searchable on Amazon, which is great). That would be drastic I guess, but tempting. Doug Weller (talk) 21:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that that's a good example for a controversial topic. Did you try asking for help from uninvolved Russian-speaking editors? I imagine we have plenty of them. --Hans Adler (talk) 21:31, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate what Rumiton is saying, which is why I suggested we talk with people who have to deal with this issue all the time, such as people who regularly import content from the English Wikipedia into their own languages. I don't think we need to discard all non-English sources. As Sandy pointed out, some things are more important than others; I would prefer not to rely on non-English sources for BLP material or direct quotes. As Rumiton points out, we also don't want to rely on non-English sources for contentious or controversial material, since it's very difficult to verify that we're being precise and nuanced. (Hell, that's difficult enough to verify in English!) - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 16:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

There is one amendment we really need. As stated, it says that any quotation from a source in a foreign language (even the Bible, or Tacitus) must also quote the original, even when the quote is from a published, scholarly, translation. Surely that's not what we mean? Is citing the translation quoted enough? (Is it necessary?) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I think your specific examples, where the original version doesn't even exist any more, wouldn't be a problem in practice. But the two proposed revisions above would probably lead to a lot of activity related to chasing down the original text in other cases, because read out of context they can (and will, by some people) be interpreted as saying: Whenever you quote a translation anywhere, even a published one, you have to quote the original as well. And even in the case for which it is intended, i.e. quotations that we first found in a non-English source, it will be completely unnecessary in many cases.

The word "original language" is problematic here. Suppose I source an article on a Sumeric king to a French book. Suppose this book quotes the king in (cuneiform) Sumeric and gives a French translation. Is Sumeric or French the "original language"? We shouldn't have a policy that forces me to write cuneiform in order to quote the translation. Then I source an article on Giacomo Casanova, who wrote in French, to an Italian book. Is French or Italian the "original language"? We shouldn't have a policy that forces me to quote the Italian translation; obviously it would be much better to quote exactly what Casanova wrote.--Hans Adler (talk) 20:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Huh? Of course the Latin text of Tacitus and the Greek and Hebrew text of the Bible exist. But this is a matter of detail. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the blunder. I thought Tacitus was a back-translation from Arabic, but I was wrong. And I don't know what I was thinking about the bible (perhaps something wrong about Aramaic.) --Hans Adler (talk) 08:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't we really want something like the following? 1) If there is an adequate published English translation, use it. 2) If there is no published English translation, make your own, but quote the basis of your translation as well. 3) If published English translations exist but are not adequate for the article (e.g. wrong), make your own, quote the basis of your translation, and explain the problem. --Hans Adler (talk) 20:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

That's a reasonable approach, although again we may want to say available. Some texts were last translated in the sixteenth century, and other translations only exist in University libraries. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Regarding your point above, Sept, I think we're talking about sources whose translated versions are not reliable sources in the same way that the original versions are. We wouldn't have to quote the Aramaic from the Gospels, since the English-language versions are reliable sources in their own right. (I'm sure some might claim that the translation can't be as good as the original since the original was the Word of God, but Wikipedia's standards are a little lower.) - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 15:17, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Rules, rules, rules ....

I see that Wikipedia already has more than 200 pages of rules and instructions explaining what is wrong or right. Also there are the rules 'supplemnets' - "Single purpose account for example" - written in the essay form. Could you people stop inventing and writing rules? The whole discussion above and proposal of the new rule is simply meaningless. English over non-English sources? Wikipedia is all about knowledge and resources shall be regarded only as good or bad, existing or non existing.--72.75.24.245 (talk) 03:36, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Welcome to life. Life has rules. Rule #1: play nicely.--Srleffler (talk) 05:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

And, of course, remember this rule: Wikipedia:Ignore all rules --Lukobe (talk) 06:35, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Um, you applying that to sockpuppets and banned users also (the IP editor seems to be Velebit aka Stagalj aka Standshown aka Pederkovic Ante aka Guivon aka J.A.Comment aka..whoever that is). Doug Weller (talk) 21:15, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Independent third-party sources

Why is the word "independent" completely missing from this page, in particular, from WP:SPS? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:58, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I take "third-party" to mean a disinterested party, and past discussions have suggested that it's easier to define what that means than "independent", but "independent" is certainly most of the sense of what we're going for here, and I personally wouldn't mind adding the word in front of "third-party". - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 15:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see; third-party is supposed to cover independent? The only place I could find a discussion of independent is at Wikipedia:Independent sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

• I do not understand it. If I am writing a book about, say, the enzymes - am I a third party or the second or the first one? Also, if a book of the first-hand testimonies about the holocaust era is written - shall we disqualify this book for the sake of coming from an interested-in party???--72.75.24.245 (talk) 19:40, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that every use of "third-party" in this and other policies and guidelines needs to be critically reviewed. In every case the question should be asked: "Who are the first and second parties?"

• From WP:PROVEIT

  If no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it.

  Who or what would be the first and second parties here? What would be the distinction? PSWG1920 (talk) 19:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
• From WP:SOURCES

  Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.

  The first party presumably would be the author, but who is the second party? PSWG1920 (talk) 19:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
• From WP:QS

  Articles about such sources should not repeat any contentious claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources.

  Again, who would be the second party? Maybe "third parties" could be changed to "living persons"? PSWG1920 (talk) 19:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
• From WP:SPS

  Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.

  So the first party would be the author, but again, who or what would be the second? PSWG1920 (talk) 19:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
• Further from WP:SPS

  Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer;

  In this instance it is clear who the first and second parties are. But how is this different from simply saying "Self-published sources should never be used as sources about living persons..."? PSWG1920 (talk) 19:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
• From WP:SELFANDQUEST

  Self-published and questionable sources may only be used as sources about themselves, and only if ... the material used ... does not involve claims about third parties;

  And what about claims regarding second parties? PSWG1920 (talk) 19:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

When are citations not necessary?

I posted a comment here, asking for inline citations to offences that soccer players (who are still living persons) may have committed. in response, users have said that citations are not necessary because the information "is freely available from numerous sources". If this is true, then it comes as a surprise to me, as I assumed that citations are required for all content in article space. Thoughts?Bless sins (talk) 14:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Not all. See WP:WHEN; we don't need to source common knowledge. It doesn't seem like this is the sort of thing at issue here, but that is a question of fact; saying that "some soccer players have broken the rules of soccer" (at some time in the last century) would be stating the obvious. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Blogs

I just wanted to get some opinion on blogs. Surely we can take some blogs as RS? There are many which have build up a reputation for reliable reporting. Secondly, could it not be said that a blog reproducing information from RS which is not otherwise available on-line is acceptable?Traditional unionist (talk) 15:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion (and that's what you asked for :-)), some blogs are absolutely respectable, reputable, reliable and trustworthy. I'd include most or all of the bloggers at ScienceBlogs, for example. That said, we'll never have a list of which blogs are RS, and the question will have to be hashed out over and over again, topic by topic. I don't see any other way, do you? --Hordaland (talk) 20:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

No, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Clearly some blogs are not intented to be impartial, but then again I've seen books that describe themselves as biased on the topic at hand being cited on WP in support of controversial additions. Slugger O'Toole in Northern Ireland strikes me as another example of a mostly RS source on many things. But shouldn't that be listed on the relevant wikiproject as acceptable RS?Traditional unionist (talk) 23:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Impartial and (factually) reliable are two different things. Regards, HaeB (talk) 03:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Not the first time this is being brought up... The fundamental problem with blogs is that they are basically designed to make publication as quick and easy as possible, which in most cases means without (mandatory) review by an editor. In other words, self-published. A blog posting by an author will always be considered less reliable than a peer-reviewed article by the same author in a reputed scientific journal. That being said, there are certainly many blogs where the reputation of the author or the blog itself (as evidenced by quotes from the blog in reliable sources, for example) makes them appropriate as sources in the right context (other examples: Freedom to tinker, Google Blogoscoped).

I think Jimbo Wales described it rather well in this interview:

... a too ruthless consistency really tries to chop through the messiness of the world in a way that may not make a lot of sense and leads to you know, sort of strange conclusions. You know, an example of overly, an overly broad principle would be you know, a very simple statement that blogs are not valid sources.

Well, at first glance a lot of people would say that sounds about right. I mean anybody can write a blog and post anything they want -- is that really a valid source? But then again once you start getting into the nuisances of it, you say well, John Edwards is blogging. He's a famous politician and if he writes something about his own views on his own blog, it sure sounds like a pretty good source for what his own views are.

And, you know, on the other hand a random blog on MySpace offering some opinion doesn't seem like much of a source for anything. So when you have these attempts to write down the principles in an overly broad way it doesn't really work.

(It goes on a bit about the problem of context in determining what original research and reliable sources are, worth a read.)

Regards, HaeB (talk) 03:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Removing challenged content

Removing challenged content is currently a very frustrating process, as fans of that content will often re-add it without sources because this policy says:

Any material lacking a reliable source may be removed, but editors may object if you remove material without giving them sufficient time to provide references.

"sufficient time" basically means forever, in my experience. This is a sad state of affairs... material an editor deems incorrect or unsourcable should be removed... the burden should be on people wanting to restore the content to find sources, there's no right to include challenged, unreferenced content. This language needs to be corrected to point out that immediate removal might rub people the wrong way, and you can opt to be nice and add {{fact}} tags, but that you should always be able to remove challenged and unsourced content, rather than just have to leave it in the article forever but with a tag.

Allowing material that doesn't seem sourcable to stay in perpetually is really a terrible idea... it lets people create utterly unencyclopedic content so long as they don't mind a [citation needed] tag. --Rividian (talk) 02:15, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

You already got a response to this ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Which basically told me to leave the unsourced, challenged content in so I can "achieve Wiki-Zen". I considered that response utterly useless and incoherent. --Rividian (talk) 02:26, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Eventualism ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

And BTW, you can always try and find sources for material, rather than deleting it or even adding a {{tag}}. And if the material remains unsourced, you can always delete it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I always do try to find sources... when I can't, I remove that content. I find that if the article has owners, they just add the content right back when they think I've gone away... and often as not an admin sides with them since it's only a content dispute, nevermind that the burden is supposed to be clearly on them. If I can "always delete it" then why do you oppose clarifying the wording? It apparently isn't clear right now. --Rividian (talk) 02:27, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

It is bad practice to try to "fix policy" because you had some encounters with people that keep adding unsourced materials. DO you think that having that wording will make them desist? Wishful thinking. Better, would be that you try and educate these users on why do we need sources, and if they are unable/unwilling to understand this basic principle, well ... time to post a report at WP:AN/I about these users' behavior. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

The language is still unclear... people do get the idea that it's rude to remove incorrect unsourced information, and correct policy is to just leave it in the article for several years with a {{fact}} tag. So I do believe the policy needs clarification. And it's admins that get this policy wrong too. At any rate, you're right, I should jump through the hoops and go to ANI when I encounter article owners who add unsourced content... no amount of policy wording will probably stop some of them. That doesn't mean the policy doesn't need tweaking though. --Rividian (talk) 02:33, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

people do get the idea that it's rude to remove incorrect unsourced information, and correct policy is to just leave it in the article for several years with a tag. Who? Where? What? There is nothing in this policy that support what these unnamed people say. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:41, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

"editors may object if you remove material without giving them sufficient time to provide references." They certainly do object, and prefer you just add a fact tag and wait and wait, even if you seriously doubt those sources exist. --Rividian (talk) 02:44, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Challenged

A short while ago i asked about defining the often referenced but undefined phrase "challenged or likely to be challenged" (its in the archives of this page somewhere) and got some mixed response ranging from "yeah its vague" to "its supposed to be vague" and also "its plain common sense". I went away for a little while and thought about this then came up with what i think is a pretty good idea cuz i dont think common sense alway prevails here, if it did we would probably not need so many gosh darned rulez.

Anyways i want your comments on the following idea to existing policy (my words are just first draft so i welcome any suggestions):

Any editor may ask for reliable source citations for any material in any article per this policy however such a request (either by talk page or by tag) is not by itself a "challenge" to the material, but rather it is only a request for sources and nothing more. To actually challenge material an editor must state on the article's talk page that in good faith they believe there is an material error in it, and whenever possible give guidance to the other editors as to what they believe that error to be. This will enable other editors to understand what issues may need to be corrected with the material in addition to simply providing required citations.

I think this strikes a nice compromise between those who want to improve wp by getting citations and those who want to actually argue about what is verifiable. It changes no procedures but it does add a level of responsibility to editors who wish to challenge material to actually go to the talk page and talk.

208.43.120.114 (talk) 22:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)