Talk:Teutonic takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk)

Danzig or Gdańsk?

This is indeed an interesting case; since it it the very takeover of Danzig/Gdańsk that led to the city's Germanization and this event marks the change of Gdansk to Danzig in our wiki nomenclature. Therefore should this article be named 'Teutonic takeover of Danzig' or Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk'? I think that since the city name before the takeover was Gdańsk, it would be logical to use the G version. We may also avoid this trouble by using a neutral name like Polish-Teutonic War (1308–1309).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:52, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Polish-Teutonic War (1308–1309) is a neutral only in the sense that the Royal Polish forces were not involved at all in the takeover. The Poles did not fight the Order, they were supposed to drive the Brandenburgers away from the town, which was not accomplished. That failure could be covered in Polish-Brandenburgian War (1308) if needed. As for the town naming, the vote, which I had looked up to make sure to pick the consensus name, requires to use "Gdańsk before 1308" and "Danzig between 1308 and 1945". If we ignore the vote in this case in order to determine the name used around 1308, then Historical documents suggest "Danzc (1263), Danczk (1311, 1399, 1410, 1414-1438)". As for "the takeover led to the city's Germanization", well, I started the article to initiate a better coverage of this important event and its time frame than the general article on the city and its history currently can provide. Capital of the Pomeranian Duchy (1138–1294/1308) is a starter, though, maybe parts can be merged in here for a better background. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       23:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe this article needs to go through WP:RM.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 20:23, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, the only thing that needs to get fixed is the pre-1308 part of the "vote" above, where Polish POV only prevailed because this early era was not yet covered properly with sources back in 2005. Are there any sources for the claimed use of Polish names at all? I have seen none. How about Dgańska, whatever that is? I've seen Polish sources reporting about existing evidence for German name versions, e.g. "Dantzike" in the pre-1308 era. Besides, your edit [1] is a really good laugh, as you are calling the GDR edition of a work of this author mentioned here a "German source". Freudian slip maybe, as the person had worked in Krakau, Posen and Thorn? How about this or that: Dansko 1180, Dansk, Gdanensis 1209, Dancek, Gdanensis 1224, Danceke 1263, Dantsik, etc. There was exactly one takeover of the city that led to an "X-ization", and that was in 1945. As in 1308, 1410, 1456, 1918, Poles needed others to do the fighting. And again, Kashubians and Germans were slaughtered, not absent Poles.-- Matthead  DisOuß   14:32, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I find the name proposed by Space Caded (Teutonic takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk)) a reasonable compromise. For the event which marks the name shift to use both is quite reasonable.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 22:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

You guys and making compromises? When and where? Especially Space Cadet is constantly edit warring, even adding Polish names to places in Kaliningrad Oblast, like Tilsit. The vote is clear on that: It's Danzig in 1308. Show me articles on the town that have double naming, then I may consider discussing a name change. And now, move back to original naming.-- Matthead  DisOuß   12:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Tylża was a part of the Polish fief Ducal Prussia therefore is sharing a Polish/German history, therefore a Polish name according to the Gdańsk vote. You German ultranationalists only like the Gdańsk vote when it serves your purposes, but you forget that it works both ways. What doyou mean show you an article? Every article that talks about the history of the western and northern Polish territories has double naming. Prussian Confederation, Royal Prussia, Ducal Prussia, Bogusław Radziwiłł e tutti quanti. You're new here or something? Don't play dumb on us (the Wikipedia Community) now! Space Cadet (talk) 16:14, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Another double naming article would of course be the most recent version of History of Gdańsk (Danzig). Space Cadet (talk) 18:11, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Moved back to original and proper name. You may try WP:RM, stop warring here.-- Matthead  Discuß   18:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that per our naming conventions, double naming in titles is not good. Per discussion above, Gdańsk is more correct than Danzig, since if per Gdansk vote we agree that this year and this particular event marks the name change, it is obvious that the Teutonic Knights took over Gdańsk (and changed its name to Danzig), and did not take over Danzig (as the name was not used until after they took it over). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:58, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Zwantepolc de Danceke, 1228

Come on Piotrus, what is pretty unoriginal non-research. You know very well that German name variants are recorded well before 1308, the Order did not introduce a new name to the town which was inhabited by many German merchants and had received Lübeck rights in the 1220s. The Polish version had gained the upper hand in the vote for the pre-1308 time, even though sources are scarce. The event happened in 1308, the policy is "Danzig between 1308 and 1945", thus "Gdańsk before 1308" does not belong in the article name at all. Once again I ask you to be cooperative and move the article back to its original and proper name Teutonic takeover of Danzig from which it was moved away by Space Cadet three times. -- Matthead  Discuß   18:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Please read section on Original Research, the city was not Germanised before 1308, your personal beliefs can't be used as sources. It's absurd to talk about "German merchants"-there was no German identity, no German nation, and no Germany back then. As to city laws that is view that Norman Davies simply points out as ignorant-many cities and towns adopted without any German living within their walls. It was an administrative change unconnected to ethnic situation.--Molobo (talk) 18:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Both names are most probably wrong in spelling (whatever "wrong" means, in the middle ages they spelt as they felt). Not that it matters much, but your statement that there was no Germany back then is not correct. Just google for "Regnum Teutonicum" or "East Francia". Polish or German identity kind of existed already. Have fun. Der Eberswalder (talk) 17:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding my move from Teutonic Takeover of Gdańsk to Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk, it was merely because the event does not seem to be known formally as the "Teutonic Takeover". Rather, the article is simply describing the takeover of the city by the Teutonic Knights. Whether Gdańsk or Danzig should be used is contentious; my move was simply to make "takeover" be lower-case. The Gdanzig vote indicates that "Danzig" should be used; my opinion is that the event should be described using whichever name reliable sources usually use for the time period in question. Olessi (talk) 20:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I strongly suggest we follow the spirit of the vote, it is only logical, as I explained above, that the city name would be changed after the takeover, not before. The logic is the same as in, for example, "splitting atom into subparticles": first, you have atom; than, you have suparticles. The Danzig variant is as logical as saying "splitting subparticles into subparticles" :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Nope the vote is between 1308 and 1945 (btw it was ignored that the vote was against this actually). So only after 1308. Of course this is historical ignorance in favour of misleading readers as to actual date of Germanisation of the name. But false information on Wikipedia is not surprising.--Molobo (talk) 20:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

To be accurate, the vote summary says "use the name Danzig between 1308 and 1945" and "use the name Gdańsk before 1308 and after 1945". Olessi (talk) 22:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

To be even more accurate, this vote - a sad excuse for scholarly expertise - also assumed that "1308: Teutonic Knights", which of course, as this article shows, is not as clear. The TK did not take over Gdansk on the 1st January of the year, and until they did, it was know as Gdansk. It's quite simple - so I strongly suggest we avoid any more wikilawyering w/ regards to this issue.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, you ignore the vote, you ignore the conveniently placed coin that shows that Danceke was used well before 1308, and yet you claim "it was know as Gdansk", and perform move warring, together with Space Cadet? The article must be moved back to its original name Teutonic takeover of Danzig, which conforms both to the vote and to sources. -- Matthead  Discuß   20:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

But not to common sense, huh? And what sources, do tell? In any case, if you want this article moved so much, try WP:RM.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The Danzig vote ruled that from the foundation of the city to the Teutonic takeover in 1308 the city will be referred to as "Gdańsk". From that point up to the end of WW II (even for periods when the city was a part of Poland again 1466 - 1792) it will be referred to as "Danzig". The vote itself has only a date "1308" and that's the only base of Matthead's argumentation. Here we can't go by the letter, we have to go by the spirit and common sense. Teutonic Knights invaded GDAŃSK and from then on it is known as Danzig. What he proposes is like calling the city Danzig until January 1st 1946, while it returned to Poland already in March 1945. We have to use common sense on this one. The "Danceke" case, of course, is against the Gdańsk vote completely. Space Cadet (talk) 14:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Sigh. The Knights did not invade, the were called to defend the castle of Danzig, as the King of Poland in far away Cracow could not help. Polish involvement was short-lived and weak compared to that of Pomeranians, Brandenburgers, German/Hanseatic merchants, and Teutonic Knights. To put it short: no Polish business before and after 1308, and no Gdansk either. -- Matthead  Discuß   03:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

June 2008 Requested move to Teutonic takeover of Gdansk

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was No consensus to move. Cenarium ^Talk 16:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Teutonic takeover of Danzig (Gdańsk) → Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk — As was explained above by me and most recently summed up by Space Cadet, Teutonic Knights took over Gdańsk and this led to the city's name change to Danzig for the next few centuries. They did not take over Danzig, just as Khrushchev did not change the name of Volgograd but of Stalingrad. The (in)famous Gdansk vote is not clear on this, but logic again dictates that the name Danzig should be used for all events after this takeover which was the catalyst for various namechanges (as the names were not changed before the takeover, but afterwards). Finally, double naming is not recommended (and by above logic, IF we wanted double naming, it should be Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk (Danzig)).—_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Nominator support per above rationale. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:04, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support per my explanation above. Space Cadet (talk) 18:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose The vote is unclear because it is flawed. Charles 00:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose The proper name, historically and according to the vote, is Teutonic takeover of Danzig, and that is why the article had been created under that name before move warriors pushed it to other names. The city with its German merchants and German Lübeck law rights already was known and documented as Danzig (Danceke, Dantzike) for decades before 1308. -- Matthead  Discuß   10:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose Wouldn't local english variant rule come into play? When there are two variants, we go with what the creator used? Narson (talk) 11:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support per Space Cadets' explanation. - Darwinek (talk) 12:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support per logic and fact that we shouldn't press Germanised names that appeared later.--Molobo (talk) 20:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose Danzig fits better in the resp time period than Gdansk. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose I have seen no evidence that "Gdańsk" constitutes even a simple majority in terms of common use in literature (see my discussion below). "Gdańsk" fails both WP:USEENGLISH and WP:COMMONNAME. This article should be moved to Teutonic takeover of Danzig. Wilhelm meis (talk) 16:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose and agree with Wilhelm meis. The "logic" does not work: neither Danzig nor Gdańsk is really a medieval word, but both have Latin antecedents that occur before 1308. The Teutonic Knights did not change the name of the city, they merely conquered it. I think Siege of Danzig (1308) might be a good title, but would have to do more research first. Srnec (talk) 23:29, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The siege of the Danzig's castle(!) by Brandenburg was only a part of the events, and the Teutonic Knights were called to defend it, which they successfully did. Only afterwards, they took control of castle and city of Danzig. -- Matthead  Discuß   03:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

It's all fine, but there is no real way of checking the current title to the literature, so this move debate is not really about this article's title but about how to refer to a certain city. Srnec (talk) 03:33, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Is there a more formal term used in literature for this event? Perhaps "Siege of Danzig (1308)" or something? I don't know how the current title could be tested against the sources accurately. Srnec (talk) 04:21, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

A quick notability check strongly suggests that "Teutonic takeover of Danzig" would be the common name for this article. Wilhelm meis (talk) 21:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

What check? Please describe the methodology.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:29, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

A google search for "Teutonic takeover of Danzig -Wikipedia" yields 2,580 results, but a google search for "Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk -Wikipedia" yields only 579 results. Adding "-Wikipedia" to the search criteria removes any Wikipedia-related search results, meaning that Wikipedia content cannot skew the results. Hope this helps! Wilhelm meis (talk) 06:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. In future, please provide links to searches, this eliminates the need to ask how did one gather the data. I wonder how many of those results are still wiki mirrors, even with "-wikipedia". Do note than neither search ([2], [3]) is found in literature. I would like however to direct your attention to this search: a lot of books by prominent scholars such as Norman Davies use Gdańsk in this context: "the Knights over the seizure of Gdansk in 1308", "The monk- knights also subjugated Pomerania on the lower Vistula, a Christian country, and massacred the people of Gdansk (1308)", "The Teutonic Knights, who captured Gdansk in 1308, destroyed the Slavonic town", "After the Teutonic Knights conquered Gdansk in 1308"... A similar search for Danzig ([4]) suggests that the isage of Gdańsk and Danzig is roughly as popular.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 10:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

This article should be on the historical issue and not a base for pushing agendas not related to the event. An even better name would be takeover of the Danzig fortress, as the conflict was about the fort and not so much about the town...Skäpperöd (talk) 15:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• The conflict was very much about the town, which the knights razed to the ground... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 15:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The walls, not the town.Skäpperöd (talk) 04:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

How so? I quoted above one source about massacre of city's inhabitants, another about the destruction of the town. You can find more info on that, the bottom line is that the Knights sacked/razed/burned the city, killed most if its Slavic inhabitants, and settled their own Germanized settlers on the ruins. Hence Gdańsk became Danzig.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 12:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

You need to be careful with that massacre legend. Also, that town's name was not Gdansk when the knights moved in.Skäpperöd (talk) 19:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

OK Piotrus, I'll be sure to include links in future discussions. For now, I might point out that while your search for Gdańsk 1308 yielded 687 results, my equivalent search for Danzig 1308 yielded 697 results, again suggesting that Danzig wins by a narrow margin. My point is simply that Gdańsk is not clearly the common name. These search results are what I would classify as inconclusive, even if one completely disregards my initial results [5] [6]. Wilhelm meis (talk) 04:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Neither is Danzig a common name. Both names are roughly as popular, and simple logic dictates that for this case, Gdańsk is more correct (the name was changed AFTER the takeover, not before it, and not during it).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 12:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

And then there are these 13 books (Danzig 1308) vs these 12 books (Gdansk 1308), and these 14 books (Teutonic Danzig) vs these 14 books (Teutonic Gdansk), and then there are these 7 books (Teutonic Danzig) vs these 7 books (Teutonic Gdansk) and these 8 books (Danzig 1308) vs this 1 book (Gdansk 1308). My point here is that Danzig is used a bit more in the literature than Gdansk. Sorry, but I don't see any sound logic for renaming to Gdańsk within the WP naming conventions and guidelines. To the contrary, I see a fairly solid case for renaming to Danzig. Wilhelm meis (talk) 16:53, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Google Book scans given here have not indicated to me a definitive preference one way or another. In my personal experience, most of the books I have read have used Danzig, but I can understand Piotrus' rationale. In the absence of further evidence, I am thus indifferent to whether Gdańsk or Danzig is used; I highly doubt either was the "official" name of the city seven hundred years ago. If there is a desire to only have a single name in the title, Tumult of Thorn (Toruń) should be moved back to Tumult of Thorn accordingly. Olessi (talk) 20:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Danceke - Dantzig - Dantzic - Danzig in Pomerania/Pomerelia/Prussia

Pomerania was a part of the Holy Roman Empire since the 1100s and was granted as lien from the empire directly since 1181. In the 1200s several times the local rulers of the Pomeranian Samboriben received the ducal Herzog titles from the empire, thereby the lien to govern the land, and the Margraves of Brandenburg were overlords over Pomerania and Pomerelia.

In the 1220s the German-Law city named Danceke was founded under the government of a Pomeranian Herzog/duke, a part of the HRE. His seal identifies him as Zwantepolc de Danceke and he ruled from 1220-1266. In 1263 the burghers of Danzig had their status verified by requesting a copy of the Lübeck Law.

It was Dantzig, a German-Law city with German-language burghers, which was in 1308 taken over by the Teutonic Order and Pomerelia became part of Prussia, governed by the T.O. The city of Danzig remained part of Prussia continously until the 20th century.

Only in 1945 were the inhabitants drastically changed to foreigners.

Wikipedia constantly shows entries such as by Molobo and Piotrus (and by many more people) above.

Wikipedia may indefinately continue pretending, that all what is Poland since 1945, "has always been Poland" (or rather 'if it was conquered by Poland a 1000 - thousand years ago, it should again be conquered by Poland).

But that does not change the facts of history as they really happened. It is only unfortunate, that Wikipedia contains and mirrors so much of this type of lopsidedness. An Observer 07.06. 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.133.69.190 (talk) 17:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

"The city of Danzig remained part of Prussia continously until the 20th century.' Throughout its long history Gdańsk faced various periods of rule from different states before 1945,

   * 997-1308: as part of Poland
   * 1308-1466: as part of territory of Teutonic Order
   * 1466-1793: as part of Poland
   * 1793-1805: as part of Prussia
   * 1807-1814: as free city
   * 1815-1871: as part of Prussia
   * 1871-1918: Imperial Germany
   * 1918-1939: as a free city
   * 1939-1945: Nazi Germany

Altogether combining the number of years, the city was under rule of Poland for 641 years, under the rule of Teutonic Order for 158 years, 125 years as part of Prussia and later Germany, 29 years of its history are marked by the status of a free city, and 6 years under the occupation of Nazi Germany until it was given back to Poland in 1945.

Regards,

--Molobo (talk) 22:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Molobo, Danzig is a Prussian city for 700 years now, whether you deny it or not. It simply does not matter if it was under the rule of some Polish state or some German state. And the population of Danzig spoke all the time mostly German, not Polish. Nationalism was irrelevant until the 19th century. Der Eberswalder (talk) 18:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move. JPG-GR (talk) 01:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

A common name should be settled on and the double-naming eliminated. This article has been the victim of move warring and the current double-name is the result of compromise. Since the recent request to move to Teutonic takeover of Gdansk was strongly opposed, there may be a consensus settling around Teutonic takeover of Danzig. This name is also supported by the Danzig/Gdansk Vote, which indicates the use of Danzig in naming articles concerning the period 1308-1945, and the common name of the city before 1308 has been heavily disputed, with several different versions of the name (Danceke, Dantzig, etc.) appearing in historical sources. Therefore, this article should be restored to its original title of Teutonic takeover of Danzig. Wilhelm meis (talk) 01:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Survey

• Support as nominating editor, per reasoning stated above. Wilhelm meis (talk) 01:12, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. As explained above, the correct name is Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk (it was Gdańsk until the takeover, so it couldn't be taken over with the new name as it didn't have it yet...). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support as the creator of the article Teutonic takeover of Danzig which was victim of move warring. The town was called Danzig before 1308, no matter how often our Polish friends repeat their claims. -- Matthead  Discuß   16:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. According to Talk:Gdansk/Vote#Results on VOTE: Period before 1308, the name used in Wikipedia to refer to the city before 1308 is Gdansk (emphasis as in the original). That is, that's the name up until this event; The name was changed by this event. So what was the subject of the takeover was called Gdańsk, and the article title should simply use that name (with or without the diacritic? (Sigh) That's another issue... It seems to me that in this context, it probably belongs, but really I'm happy either way). So support move to Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk. Andrewa (talk) 01:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Discussion of the proposal to move to Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk is closed. This discussion is about moving to Teutonic takeover of Danzig. As you point out, the result of the vote was to refer to the city as Gdańsk before 1308 and Danzig after 1308, but that leaves this event as something of a gray area. Since the event is more commonly known as the "Teutonic takeover of Danzig" (as previously discussed on this page), the name Danzig should apply beginning with this event. Wilhelm meis (talk) 01:34, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Disagree with most of this, see below. Andrewa (talk) 17:23, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose per Piotrus and Andrewa Space Cadet (talk) 15:21, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support - per common sense. The knights did not take over Gdansk. Skäpperöd (talk) 19:20, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose - I could possibly see a change to Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk (Danzig), but I feel both names should be mentioned in the article title. Caerwine Caer’s whines 02:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

History of Danzig, Pomerelia, Prussia

Too many people lack knowledge of the history of Danzig and Pomerelia and are overwhelmed by farefetched Polish claims, thus here a summary:

Early history of territory later called Pomerelia

The territory is situated entirely in the eastern part of what Greek and Roman historians called "Magna Germania". East Germanic people were recorded by Jordanes in Gothiscandza (in territory of later Danzig and further south to later Kujavia and Masovia). The territory began to be called Pomerania in the 11th century, Pomerelia, along with the rest of Pomerania,because by then it was largely inhabited by West Slavic tribes, who overlapped with the Prussians, who used to live further west of Danzig and were recorded in Gedanum Danzig area in 997 AD, when St. Adalbert was sent by Boleslaw I, who tried to conquer them by conversion.

Ever since the first appearance of the Polanes and their dukes Mieszko I and Boleslaw I in the 10th century, the Pomeranian , Prussians, as well as all other neighboring people had to constantly fight off conquest attacks by the Polans, Poles. For a short time around 990 the Pomeranians were conquered by the Poles, who till just before 1300 were dukes, pledging allegiance to the empire.

Again in 1116/1121, Pomerania was conquered by Poland. While the Duchy of Pomerania regained independence quickly, Pomerelia remained within the Polish realm for a few years. In 1138, following the death of Duke Bolesław III, the dukes of Pomerelia gradually gained more power, evolving into dukes directly alligned to the emperors. The Samborides ruling Pomerelia ruled the duchy until 1294. Before 1227, they were short-term vassals of Poland and Denmark. The most famous dukes were Mestwin I (1207–1220), Swantopolk II (1215–1266), and Mestwin II (1271–1294).

Christianity was introduced by Bolesław III Wrymouth of Poland, while he tried to gain Pomerelia. Second attempt by Otto von Bamberg and emperor Lothar succeeded in bringing christianity. Since 1181 Pomerania was a direct part of the Holy Roman Empire (until 1806). It was under Danish suzerainty from 1210-1227, after which it became independent again.

Pomerelia as a part of Prussia, ruled by the Teutonic Knights as monastic state

After the death of duke Mestwin II of Pomerania in 1294, his co-ruler Przemysł II of Poland claimed Pomerelia basing it on the treaty made at Langenfort , later Kempen (Treaty of Kępno) from 1282, in which Mestwin declared Przemysł II his sole successor. Yet, the Brandenburg margraves also held claims based on the Treaty of Arnswalde of 1269. Przemysl was soon succeeded by Wenzel II, king of Bohemia (an integral part of the Holy Roman Empire). That agreement was made between Romish German King Albrecht I (Albert I) of the Holy Roman Empire and King Wenzel of Bohemia, who received the territories of Greater Poland and Pomerelia into his possession and accepted soverainty over it by HRE King Albert I. In the year 1300 at Mainz Wenzel or Wenceslas II received the Polish crown from German king Albert [7].

Upon the deaths of Wenceslas II and III and with them the extinction of the House of Przemysl the Margraviate of Brandenburg staked their claim of the territory in 1308, leading Władysław I the Elbow-high to request assistance from the Teutonic Knights, which evicted the Brandenburgers. After Władysław refused to pay the substantial fee he owed to the Teutonic Knights, the province was annexed and incorporated into the monastic state of the Teutonic Knights in 1309 (Teutonic takeover of Danzig). An Observer 24 July 2008

---

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.133.65.40 (talk) 03:38, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Some issues raised in the survey

From the survey above:

Discussion of the proposal to move to Teutonic takeover of Gdańsk is closed. No, a particular poll is closed. There's nothing stopping us revisiting the question, as everyone involved in any discussion regarding the name of the city in question should be painfully aware.

This discussion is about moving to Teutonic takeover of Danzig. True.

As you point out, the result of the vote was to refer to the city as Gdańsk before 1308 and Danzig after 1308, but that leaves this event as something of a gray area. Only if you ignore English grammar. When something is subject to a takeover, the thing taken over is the thing previous to the takeover.

Since the event is more commonly known as the "Teutonic takeover of Danzig" (as previously discussed on this page), the name Danzig should apply beginning with this event. The logic is good, but as far as I can see the previous discussion didn't reach a consensus supporting the premises despite your best efforts. It's a fascinating suggestion; It might for example be explained if most of the people who use this term aren't native English speakers (and WP:NC doesn't specify anywhere that we give preference to usage of native English speakers) so the rules of grammar are, shall we say, relaxed a little. Hmmm. Andrewa (talk) 18:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, I think the assumption that grammar is absolutely logical is flawed. I don't think this is a case where the logic of a naming argument can rest on a grammar-logic extrapolation such as the one you have presented. If the city was sufficiently well-known as "X" since the takeover, and was known as "Y" before (but also known as "X" and "Z" during that time), then it may not be so simple as to say "Y" was taken over and "X" is inappropriate. Here is an example. KFC has recently been rebranded as Kentucky Fried Chicken (the original name of the company), by its parent company Yum! Brands. Once the new marketing campaign is launched, it may well be that "KFC" will once again be commonly called "Kentucky Fried Chicken" (assuming this outcome for the sake of argument). Then it would not be grammatically incorrect to say "Kentucky Fried Chicken was acquired by Yum! Brands in 2002," even though it would be logically incorrect since the company was known as "KFC" from 1991-2007. Grammar is logical only to a certain point. In Shakespeare's day, double negatives and even triple negatives were often used for emphasis, and it has only been recently that the mathematical logic of self-canceling double negatives has been applied to the English language. Wilhelm meis (talk) 00:03, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

There is no assumption that grammar is absolutely logical. Disagree that what you suggest would be logically incorrect since the company was known as "KFC" from 1991-2007 would be incorrect in any sense that is relevant here. At best, it would only be so in a prescriptive sense which our naming conventions reject.

Suppose country X invades and annexes country Y and and announces that henceforth the invaded territory will be called Z. We'd still say X invaded Y rather than X invaded Z, wouldn't we? There's a sense in which both are quite correct, but the normal usage is the former.

This may be an exception, but the onus of proof is on those who claim it's an exception. Andrewa (talk) 05:35, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Noone "announced" the territory to be called Danzig henceforth, Danzig was the German name before and after 1308 and Gdansk was the Polish name before and after 1308, the only question is, which name should be used here. 84.139.231.103 (talk) 07:54, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for condensing what I was trying to say, and I might add that there is something of a fallacy in looking at this event in terms of the modern ideas of nationality, which only arose in the last few centuries. I'd also like to highlight that it was not an invasion of the nation-state of Poland by the nation-state of Germany, the latter claiming victory and annexing territory. Rather, this was an action taken by the Teutonic order, which was indeed a powerful political entity in northern Europe, but was not one and the same with the nation-state of Germany, which in those days was rather less of a unified nation that it is today. It may not even be all that relevant how the city was known then anyway, as WP naming conventions suggest that the name should follow how the event is commonly called in the literature that is available to us today. One final point, someone actually did "announce" the city to be called Danzig henceforth - a bunch of wikipedians did, but I have my doubts about the historical validity. In the Middle Ages, however, you are quite correct. There was no distinct changeover with regard to the name of the city, as has been suggested before, there were several names by which this city was known in the 13th-14th centuries. Wilhelm meis (talk) 14:27, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

See below for my comments on this condensing. Disagree that there's any fallacy, something or otherwise, in considering these modern ideas in a discussion about an article name. Quite the opposite; It's inevitable that modern English speakers are influenced by these ideas in the names they use to describe historical events. In terms of WP:NC we are trying to determine what English speakers do say, not to arbitrate what they should say. So the fallacy lies in trying to forbid these thought processes, as they underly English grammar. I think this is a key point.

Hasn't the rest of this has all been said, and answered, before, many times? Andrewa (talk) 19:54, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

In terms of WP:NC we are trying to determine what English speakers do say, not to arbitrate what they should say. Isn't that what the vote was all about: arbitrating what people should say? Wilhelm meis (talk) 05:54, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

No, nothing like it. Wikipedia's naming policies are essentially descriptive, not prescriptive. That's the point I'm making here. It's one that takes many people quite by surprise, but it's very much in step with modern linguistics. Linguistic prescription is generally seen as rather old-fashioned, despite the appeal it holds because most of us rather like telling others what they should do. That's human nature.

Once again, I refer you to Wikipedia:naming conventions. Do you see what I mean when I call this approach descriptive? Andrewa (talk) 13:20, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

True, there was no announcement, but so what? The question is simply whether the name, as used by current English speakers, changes at this point in history. This analogy does not in any way depend on whether there's an announcement, that's simply context for the thought experiment. In other words, this is pointlessly complicating things.

Or, if you're still worried about it, simply restate the analogy so it doesn't involve an announcement: Suppose country X invades and annexes country Y, and under the new administration the invaded territory in known as Z, although no announcement to this effect is made. It doesn't change anything, does it? So the matter of the announcement is irrelevant. Andrewa (talk) 13:04, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.