Talk:Tony Benn

Personalities versus Issues

Why is Benn's most famous 'catchphrase' not in the quotations section

Popular Culture

What about Michael Moore's Sicko, or Da Ali G Show?

Repetition about his father

The article repeats, within a few sentences, the bit about his father being elevated to the Lords, word by word; do you think that one of these utterances should be deleted? I find that particular piece a little disorientating.

Photo

What an awful photo. Also need education details.

Tony Benn about to join anti-war demo in London

How about this photo? No harsh flash lighting. Still not perfect I know but a bit better mabey. Benn was telling someone he was going to march but that he wasn't sure he'd make the whole thing as he's getting old.--JK the unwise 21:02, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

It's better than the one that's there right now & while not perfect should do at least until a better one appears. AllanHainey 08:07, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Courtesy of Josh Benn we have a new photo. I think it looks great, if you agree post your thanks below and I'll pass them on. --Brianmc 21:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

brother

this perhaps ought to mention that his brother was originally supposed to inherit the title, but ended up dying without children. Morwen - Talk 15:11, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Two factual questions

Hello, just two points I wanted to raise for someone with perhaps more expertise to have a go at answering. First, it doesn't sound quite right to my ears that the Queen 'vetoed' the measure to remove the Sovereign's head from postage - this would presumably mean a refusal of Royal Assent, which my rather strong impression is hasn't taken place since Queen Anne. Second, at bottom there's a note that the viscountcy Mr Benn would have inherited has no successor by virtue of its having been disclaimed; my impression on this point is that under the Peerage Act of 1963, such disclaiming is only valid for the life of the person who would have succeeded to the title. Stephen Benn would, presumably, acquire the title upon his father's death, unless he himself takes measures to disclaim it.

The story of the park bench is, incidentally, extraordinarily sweet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrickbelton (talk • contribs)

I suppose the intention of the "succession box" is to say that he was Viscount until 1963, and then nobody was; hence his successor was the vacancy caused by him disclaiming. It might be preferable to say "Viscount Stansgate (disclaimed)" in the middle box and "heir apparent - Stephen Benn" on the right, but there may be arcane rules governing these things...

I agree that "vetoed by the Queen" is slightly misleading shorthand; in fact it seems she didn't do anything at all, except dislike the proposal and talk at length to Harold Wilson about it. Her displeasure was sufficient to ensure that the Post Office wouldn't do it, whatever Benn told them to do. It's hard to express that without making the paragraph a bit lopsided, and I haven't time to put the work in.

Does that make sense? --rbrwr^± 20:47, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Popularity Extremely Questionable

i would dispute that Tony Benn is popular compared to others generally.

More likely he has a vociferous minority of ultra-left supporters like George Galloway.

I would suggest the popularity aspect of the artice be removed.

On the centre to centre right wing spectrum he is a figure of riducule.

A neutral description would be fine

Benn's reputation is nothing like Galloway's, and wasn't even at the peak of Benn's unpopularity with the media in the early-to-mid 80s. A Tory backbencher has since commended Benn to fellow MPs as Britain's "greatest living Parliamentarian." He is now respected by many as a man who has strong values and ideas and articulately speaks his mind, even if often they disagree with his opinions. His show is successful and his books sell well. His reputation has changed a lot from when he was a controversial figure in the 80s; the word "rehabilitated" has been used sometimes. I agree that it would be better to describe this in more detail with sources, maybe quotes. Rd232 ^talk 21:42, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

I think something should be put in about Benn's opposition to the Falklands War. He is a bit quiet about it now, since few would argue that the war was needed to free the Islanders from a brutal Argentinian dictatorship, and had the happy side effect of a dictator in Argentina being replaced by a democracy. But the war was one of the most important political events of Benn's career and his position on it should be set out JRJW

I suspect that most people from either side of the spectrum would accept that Benn is a popular and charming politician (although to be fair, at a time when politicians are particularly unpopular and lacking in charm). One shouldn't confuse personal popularity with the popularity of a person's political viewpoints; certainly Benn's are generally not embraced amongst the population (excepting perhaps his stance on Europe, and maybe a watered-down version of his anti-war stance) and rarely have been. That does not change the fact that he is viewed as a politician of personal charm, intelligence and conviction by most of those who have any engagement with politics, whatever one (myself included) may think of his actual politics. I am surprised to hear it said that he is a figure of ridicule amongst centrist voters and commentators (I do not think this is the case), although I expect it may be so amongst more right-wing segments of society (although see the wikipedia article on arch right-winger Enoch Powell for an interesting viewpoint). I would also suggest that more than a 'few' may disagree with the Falklands War- the readyness to use force over negotiation, the general conduct (e.g. Belgrano etc), and perhaps some unease regarding the khaki election that followed, given the prevailing domstic situation previously. The way the above correspondent portrays the situation is as if the islanders would somehow be abandoned to Nazi-style occupation; in fact, none were killed or injured during the weeks of the occupation and as I recall the plan was for them to be repatriated to the UK (that is not to say that I am in any way implying that this would have been acceptable). Anyway, this is not the forum for a political debate. As regards Benn's rep, the above choice of words (rd232) is reasonable but the prose could do with a bit of brushing up in places, and as you say the best way to couch these (by their nature POV) phrases and statements, (unavoidable in an article of this type) is by way of quotes. Badgerpatrol 14:07, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it's clear that he is popular as politicians go. If the television channels regularly interview him, use him occasionally as presenter, depsite the fact that he holds no political office now, it is becaus ethey think people want to see him. Also the fact that he is an old hand in politics, but speaks directly to people whether or not he agrees or disagrees with them is much respected. In recent years you can see him on demonstrations - and not just on big ones, but on assmblies of a couple of hundred people protesting against the sacking of a union representative for example Johncmullen1960 06:17, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

As my mother said, Benn sounds extremely plausible - until you read what he actually said, whereupon you realise that he's a nut. He is neither popular nor plausible. Darkmind1970 09:29, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Tony Benn recently won the BBC poll[1] on Britain's favourite politician. Nor is he necessarily a figure of ridicule on the right, eurosceptics like Peter Hitchens tend to admire him and he has a long-standing friendship with the former liberal leader David Steel. Philip Cross 10:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

David Steel is hardly a right-wing political figure- but I certainly agree with your substantive point. Badgerpatrol 11:07, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The passage above I was responding to says this: "On the centre to centre right wing spectrum he is a figure of riducule." Steel would not put himself 'on the left'. In any case, I probably should have referenced Cristina Odone whose positive personal view of Benn is more easily demonstrated. OK, she is a former deputy editor of the New Statesman, but she has not identified herself as being 'of the left' and would think of herself as being in the political centre, I think. Philip Cross 11:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

He's very popular, across the political spectrum, for the reasons outlined above. 'The Benn Tapes' were a huge sucess, as were his written political diaries.Felix-felix 14:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Third generation of family in Cabinet

The article states this is a unique distinction. What about the Hoggs/Viscount Hailsham? We have Douglas Hogg, 1st Viscount Hailsham, Quintin Hogg, Baron Hailsham of St Marylebone and Douglas Hogg, 3rd Viscount Hailsham who were all Cabinet members. Catchpole 21:28, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I think at least four consecutive generations of Cecils/Marquess of Salisbury were. The Stanleys/Earl of Derby are also a contender, though I think there's an uncle to nephew in there (along with a son predeceasing the father). Timrollpickering 02:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Having just checked, the 16th Derby was in the Cabinet as well, so there's four generations (14th Earl, 15th & 16th - brothers, 17th, 17th's eldest & younger sons). The Cecils are a little easier - the 2nd through 5th Marquess are all father-son and all in the Cabinet, though a few other sons pop in as well. The Cavendishes/Duke of Devonshire may have also qualified. Timrollpickering 02:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The above are noble families - should the sentence be rewritten to the effect that Tony Benn is a third generation #commoner# politician (even if there is a title, in abeyance). A comment on Hilary Benn as a fourth generation politician might be appropriate. Jackiespeel 16:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The Hoggs aren't exactly nobles either and if Quintin Hogg had succeeded in his campaign for peerage renouncements about a decade earlier than Benn then he would never have sat in Cabinet with a hereditary peerage. Timrollpickering 14:08, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Radical?

The latest edit has removed the word radical from the opening paragraph. I am hardly NPOV on this - huge Benn fan, personally and politically - but I have no problem whatsoever with him being described as a radical and I doubt the man would either. he clearly stands for a radical change in society through the pursuit of radically different politics than that of the Labour leadership, for example. Perhaps we could hear some more from others on whether "radical" is appropriate here or not? Cois na Camac 19:45, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you entirely. 'Radical' is not, and should not be thought of as, a pejorative term. I think almost everyone agrees that Benn is a 'radical' in the sense that most people probably don't agree with him- that doesn't make him wrong, and it sets a dangerous precedent if the term 'radical' is automatically assumed to have overtly negative connotations (I am thinking particularly of the manner in which the noun 'liberal' appears to have been hijacked by the American right (and to a lesser extent by e.g. Blair and Blunkett in the UK)). A purely descriptive term and should be reinstated and retained. Cheers, Badgerpatrol 21:59, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Similarly someone wanted a citation on my sentence that Benn became more Left wing after he was a minister. I Think this is general knowledge - he says so himself and Left and right agree (happily or sadly). I think in general in an English language wikipedia there is bound to be some political vocabulary problems. In the US and in Britain "liberal" "radical" "socialist" have quite different meanings, and I have no idea what they mean in India, Australia etc Johncmullen1960 06:20, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Blue Blood

I have a distant memory of Benn showing a vial of his blood which he had taken just before the renunciation of his peerage, whilst it was still "blue". Although a petty sounding anecdote, i think it is a nice illustration of his views and personality and would be worth mentioning at the end of the Peerage Reform Paragraph. Anyone have any back up for this tale?

As an aside (and I wouldn't dream of suggesting it for the main article) you had to admire Benn in his Ali G interview. Nobody else was confident enough in their idiology to stand up the provocotive Mr. Cohen Epeeist smudge 12:02, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

This was around 1988-89 in a Channel 4 documentary related to his diaries. Unfortunately, imdb does not list it, so without more research, I cannot be more specific. Philip Cross 10:40, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I've just heard him present the same anecdote today. I think a personal claim by Tony makes it as legitimate as it can be without physical sighting of the vial in question. SteveLoughran (talk) 21:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

POV

The family section seems to be full of POV and fluff... TastyCakes 00:34, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

St Clair

According to this, didn't take the Chiltern Hundreds but the Manor of Northstead - which is correct? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Stewards_of_the_Manor_of_Northstead

Tramp?

A cartoon by Carl Giles, published in the Sunday Express on April 14th, 1985, refers to "a tramp moved in at the bottom of the garden, like Tony Benn." Can something about this be added? -- Auric 23:29, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

How exactly? ie in what context? To compare Michael Foot to a tramp at the bottom of the garden might at least be comprehensible but Tony Benn? SqueakBox 23:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The full line is "No, we haven't got a tramp moved in at the bottom of the garden, like Tony Benn - that's Dad." and implies that an actual tramp had moved into Tony Benn's garden. -- Auric 23:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Aah, well put it in a trivia section if you like, if its sourced then nobody should object, SqueakBox 23:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd prefer to know the context of the cartoon before it gets included, if at all possible. Saying that Tony Benn was once compared to a tramp in a political cartoon in the Sunday Express is a little meaningless unless we understand the background as to why the comparison was made. Usually these comparisons are a slight twist on a current story covered elsewhere in the media, do you have any idea what story it was relating to? Road Wizard 06:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying that "Tony Benn was once compared to a tramp in a political cartoon," I'm saying that it seems that Tony Benn once let a tramp live in his garden. -- Auric 13:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, my mistake. I misread your comment and misinterpreted the caption. However, if this is placed in a section for trivia, I would suggest a more careful wording for the statement. Perhaps,

A tramp lived in Tony Benn's garden for a time in the 1980s, which led to political cartoonist Carl Giles publishing a cartoon in the Sunday Express with the caption "No, we haven't got a tramp moved in at the bottom of the garden, like Tony Benn - that's Dad." [2]

Would this wording be acceptable? Road Wizard 17:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Fine by me, and this has the ring of authenticity about it, Benn being your classic left wing do-gooder but sartorially elegant, SqueakBox 17:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It's a bit convoluted and the tramp story may be apocryphal, like the baa-baa white sheep stories featured in the press in the 1980s. Catchpole 17:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

multi-millionaire

Has anyone got a link that proves he is a multi-millionaire? I added this fact to the bio and it was deleted.

If you can find a reliable citation, please add it in again. Bobo12345 01:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you'll find a citation. I imagine that Benn's finances are kept strictly private. But he must be comfortably a millionaire, since both the Wedgwood and Benn families were very prosperous, as was his wife's family. His house in Holland Park must be worth a lot in its own right.Bill Tegner 09:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)--Bill Tegner 09:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

North sea energy policy I always believed that one of Benn's greatest achievments was keeping a significant proportion of Britian's North Sea oil revenue out of the hands of the large Americain Multi-nationals. I once saw he speak about it and it was gripping. Could somebody who knows more about this than me add soemthing. I think its a really imporant part of British history

Thanks 80.202.244.252 23:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)John

Christian Socialists category

I removed the 'Christian Socialists' category. I'm not sure it's correct to call Benn a christian, since I don't think there's evidence that he either believes in God, or an afterlife, or that he attends a Christian church. He's clearly very sympathetic to the *form* of religion, if not the content, and particularly the teachings of Jesus, and that's also influenced his socialism, but I'm not sure that qualifies him to be a 'christian socialist'. He seems to describe himself an agnostic, or 'lapsed agnostic' or even 'christian agnostic'. I reckon that's enough to disqualify him as a christian -not being one myself I might be wrong. Feel free to quibble if you disagree! --82.45.163.18 14:28, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Tony Benn cites Keir Hardie's opposition to "churchianity" when asked about his relationship to christian denominations and describes himself as someone absorbed in the teachings of Jesus Christ in interviews. Philip Cross 12:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Tony Benn is in fact a practising Methodist. He mentions this numerous times in his Diaries. I'm not sure whether I'd go as far as calling him a Christian Socialist but he certainly believes in God and seems attend church services regularly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by HighburyVanguard (talk •

In an interview in the 1970's, Benn was asked if he believed in God - the reporter said he prevaricated a great deal but finally said "no". Non-belief doesn't seem to be a problem for the CofE, but does he mention changing his mind in the diaries?

Apepper 15:19, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

War Service

Tony Benn served as a pilot in the RAF and then the RNVR during and after the war. I have a feeling that he was decorated (I read it in an Oxford newsletter). Whether he omits this in his publicity through modesty or because it doesn't fit his image, I'm not sure. I would have thought that to be decorated in a war against fascism was something to be proud of. The most I've heard him say is that he's "an old RAF pilot".Bill Tegner 09:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)--Bill Tegner 09:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

He viewed his war service as having been "undistinguished" in his Desert Island Discs appearance in 1989. Philip Cross 12:59, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Dubious grammar.

The following sentence should be changed, but for pure comedy value it might be better to leave it as it is. "In November 1960, Benn's father died and as a result he was prevented from sitting in the House of Commons." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Druidus (talk • contribs) 19:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

NPOV required I think

To me it reads almost as a eulogy.

Why no criticism section? Why nothing about Benn's speaking and approach to responding to journalists questions?

Popular across the political spectrum? Come off it.

Does anyone have any issues if I attempt a section? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.111.168.25 (talk) 10:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

It lost my signature - Matt.

Flanders and Swann

On the sleeve notes of the Flanders & Swann box set, it says that Benn produced their first show together at Oxford; before Flanders lost the use of his legs to polio. Shouldn't this be added to the trivia section?

Apepper 15:21, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Not really significanrt enough for inclusion, I would have thought. Philip Cross 18:26, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Brother a Twin?

I'm pretty sure that I have seen Benn state that his brother (who was killed in the war) was his twin. Anyone confirm that? Gavin Bl 155.136.80.160 10:26, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

No, this is not true. Philip Cross 21:55, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

URGENT! interview

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Story_preparation/Interview_with_U.K._statesman_Tony_Benn

Tony has sent me his phone number in order to do an interview for Wikinews, anyone who has this page on their watchlist should add questions to the above ASAP. Wikinews can be used as a source for Wikipedia, so if there are details you'd like to get in the article ask. --Brianmc 08:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Interview is done, follow the above WN link to an ogg of it - about 35-40 minutes long. Help with transcribing it would be appreciated. --Brianmc 08:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Nepotist/Hypocrite

Should really be a frank discussion about his ridiculous assertion that his grand-daughter (who has yet to sit her 'A' levels) was selected as a Labour Party Candidate at the next election entirely on her own 'merit'- has he really wasted his entire lifespan destroying one unjust hierarchy and replacing it with another... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.225.127.87 (talk) 00:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Falklands

Why is this being deleted? The information is sourced from a reputable polling organisation that adheres to the rules of the British Polling Council. I see the sentence immediately proceeding it ("...apparently unaware of Benn's RAF service and the loss of his brother Michael in World War II") is editorialising but is left alone. This article is supposed to be a biography, not a hagiography.--Johnbull 20:06, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that no Wikipedia article should be a hagiography, and indeed this article could benefit from a criticism section as there are few third party comments about Tony Benn included, but the poll details you cited added nothing. I have removed the preamble you quite rightly see as pushing a point of view. Philip Cross 20:32, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Why does the poll add nothing? Out of all the politicians questioned, people's opinion of Benn went down further than anyone else mentioned—that is notable. The popularity of Benn with Labour activists stays but his unpopularity with the wider population, for some unexplained reason, is "irrelevant" and "adds nothing".--Johnbull 20:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The statement by Margaret Thatcher is apparently included because it offers some counterpoint to Tony Benn's position on the Falklands War. The insertion of the phrase "apparently unaware of Benn's RAF service and the loss of his brother Michael in World War II" gives some rationale for Thatcher's statement. Without it, how do we make sense of her comment, in light of what this encyclopedia entry tells us about Benn's wartime service and his family's sacrifice? 98.212.130.236 (talk) 02:19, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Standing for Kensington

Ought it not be mentioned that Mr Benn seeks to stand as Labour candidate for Kensington against (presumed) Sir Malcolm Rifkind? HasanDiwan 18:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

War Service

According to the New College (Oxford) Register, Mr Benn served in the RAF from 1943-45 and the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve from 1945-46. I have also read, but cannot produce an exact reference, that he won the DFC and DSO. I am not sure why he does not publicise this. Does he feel that it damage his left wing credentials? Millbanks (talk) 22:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Europe

Like many Labour politicians Mr Benn became "anti-Europe" in the 1970s, though according to Tam Dalyell he was in favour before his shift to the left. Thirty years ago, to be pro-Europe was considered right wing. Now it is the right wing that are against the EU. But as far as I know, Tony Benn would still categorise himself as a Euro-sceptic, though speaking recently on a Sinn Féin platform against the Lisbon Treaty, he said that he had "no wish to return to the old Europe" (source, Irish Times). Quite what he meant by that, I'm not sure. Perhaps he was trying to identify with the Sinn Féin policy of being cautiously pro-EU. Millbanks (talk) 22:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think he's become pro-EU, I haven't seen any evidence of that. What I think he meant by "old Europe" was the national rivalry between European states which caused wars. If I remember correctly, he once favoured a 'Commonwealth of Europe', an association of independent, sovereign states that would freely co-operate together, rather than the EC which diluted sovereignty and prevented socialist economic policies.--Johnbull (talk) 19:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Benn2007.jpg

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BetacommandBot 02:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Greatest person in the world?

What evidence is there out there? Mr.Benn is the modern voice of reason.24.36.19.38 (talk) 09:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)