Talk:Hugo Chávez

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Trotskyist?

While Hugo Chavez may have said that he is a trotskyist, his actions and policies don't really resemble trotskyism at all. I think he was probably just using it as another word for Socialism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spongesquid (talk • contribs) 22:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Trotsky was a socialist/communist. So, Trotskyism is socialism. --Hillawiya (talk) 16:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Trotskyism is a form of socialism. I know nothing about it, but just because it is a socialist philosophy doesn't mean that Chavez is a faithful follower of it.-Jared Croft

This sentence is based on an opinion article

This sentence is based on an opinion article and therefore cannot be presented as a statement of fact:

Only after polls showed that 60% of Venezuelans opposed the measure did Chavez add incentives such as reducing the workday from eight to six hours and lowering the voting age from 18 to 16.

[1] JRSP 00:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, opinion articles are not necessarily off-limits for factual statements. This article is by a professor of Latin American studies and appeared in a respected journal, so it does have some weight behind it. I can understand the objection, but to say it black-and-white cannot be presented as factual is a bit much. <eleland/talkedits> 00:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Being a controversial statement, it would need to be attributed to Shifter, and possibly balanced with another opinion. JRSP 00:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Chavez is the current PRESIDENT of Venezuela!!!

This caudillo crap is beyond shameless.... Chavez is the democratically elected president of Venezuela, the very first sentence of this article shows the article's bias...

Another Economist/CIA backed edit no doubt. --24.150.77.3 (talk) 18:33, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Chill out, it was simple vandalism and has been reverted. Much more likely to have been a bored kid than a CIA officer. In future you can fix it yourself, rather than declaring your outrage on the article talk page. <eleland/talkedits> 18:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree with both Eleland's popinbts. were the CIA or any opposition group to try to influence the article there are many ways they could do so (as a project we are vulnerable to POV pushers of any ilk) but a silly piece of vandlaism is not one of them. Thanks, SqueakBox 18:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Well there were several news stories about FBI and CIA systematically editing Wikipedia, and seeing as how this article features so many Economist sources, and we all know what that journal advocates, I assumed this was the approved edit. I'd rather post my outrage here than just edit eithout approval. --24.150.77.3 (talk) 21:35, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree change it to dictator he is subverting the rights of the ooppsition and stole the last election.65.96.135.42 (talk) 20:20, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Unless multiple reliable sources say that, Wikipedia can't call it that way. Our opinions as editors don't count, this is not a blog. JRSP (talk) 22:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Find evidence of a stolen election if you want to make an accusation of that. I saw a landslide in his favor. Also, the opposition dropped out, he did nothing impacting their foolish decision. Claiming that he cheated because he has no opposition is like fighting the fur industry by buying a massive ammount of furs, and then shouting at them for killing more animals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.189.133.20 (talk) 03:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Trotskysm

Just a note, I would make a change if I could, I think someone here should take care of it.

Personally, I don´t think the declaration "I am a trotskyst" is good enough as to be qualified as a valid reference when Chavez is described as a troskyst properly.

Also, I dont see any special influence of Trotsky in Chavez´s work.

I think, the sentence should be changed from "He is also a trotskyst" to "He is a self-declared trotskyst".-------sabin

Well how much more can he do other than claim to be a Trot, I mean what would you accept as evidence in his actions that he is a Trot? If this is you're logic then every politician in the world really could be called a 'self-declared conservative' or a 'self-declared socialist' because anyone can call into question their beliefs and their application as a leader. Chavez's action are actually alot like Trotskyism, unlike other socialist ideologies Chavez did not think straight after he came to power that the revolution was over, he thinks of it as an ongoing struggle to strength the revolution and build socialism practically in this modern century. 21st Century Socialism and Bolivarianism is also alot like Trotskyism because it rejects the bureaucratic apparatus of the state as the driving force and instead holds a socialism 'from the ground up' grassroots populism to be the way to socialism. Chavez has clearly proven this with his local cooperatives and communes which have free health facilities and cheap food outlets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.187.225.104 (talk) 08:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

What would be enough? A reference to a socialism specialized third party that states so.

I could claim to be Superman, but that doesnt make me that guy. Nazi means "national socialist" and them claiming to be socialists don´t turn them automatically into so.

The difference here is that most "conservatives" or "socialists" dont claim to be anything, just do their works and thats all. Also, lot of people could relate Chavez´s bureaucritic policies and control over the justice system more to those of Stalin or Fidel Castro.

Therefore, Wikipedia being an accurate information provider, is required to take a "I am also a trostkyst" as it is, a declaration from Chavez himself.

Im not saying he is not a Trotskyst, and that is not what I´m discussing. But there is no valid reference, and without any more deep source, Wikipedia should leave it open for the reader to decide it.------ sabin

Stalin or Fidel Castro? Since when did Stalin or Fidel Castro permit a media to be in existence that actively supported coups and attempts on the leaders life? In most western countries this is not allowed, it is strange in such an autocracy that Hugo Chavez permits (grudingly, admittedly) a media that tried to overthrow him and tries to influence the countries political outcomes.172.142.197.162 (talk) 16:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

???? Chavez´s bureaucritic policies and control over the justice system , theres no one talking about his media polices, which by the way even if he permits so, he has demostrated he has the power to override and discard media anytime he wants, wich is not precisely a demostration of free speech.----sabin

Wikipedia is not a forum. —JRSP (talk) 14:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Faulty Table?

Anyone beside me notice that in the Hugo Chavez Election Results table, about a third of the way down the page, the percentages add up to 130 percent of the population? 59% voted no + 41% voted yes + 30% did not vote adds up to 130%

The "voted no" and "voted yes" only take in account those who voted. 157.253.22.14 20:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

No link to "Criticism of Hugo Chávez" topic

I noticed that there is no outward link to the "Criticism of Hugo Chávez" topic, although there is a link from that topic to this. Is merely linking to criticism considered a breach of NPOV? The tone of this topic edges over into hagiography already, and placing all the criticism in a separate topic with no link to it is highly unusual -- perhaps in itself a breach of NPOV. Gruffbear 02:14, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

There is a link from the lead and another from the criticism section of this article. JRSP 02:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I see it. Sorry. Gruffbear 02:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Chavez

Im a bit miffed about the statment 'Some foreign governments, especially the government of the United States, view Chávez as a threat to democracy in the region', I dont have a problem with this as it is sourced, and that this is an excuse that the USA often use to denounce him, however I find it strange that this can be legitimate criticism A: that Chavez is democratically elected and has brought back democratic elections which were not there previously B: 'threat to democracy in Latin America', seriously Im a bit wtf (pardon my language), how can Chavez be a threat to democracy in Latin America when it barely exists outside Venezuela, when the United States has been the main threat to Latin American democratically elected governments (watch 'The war on democracy' despite its title and obviously set opinion, it provides factually udisputable evidence) , and where it does exist it is universally left-wing and therefore universally supported by Chavez. As I say I dont have a problem with saying that the USA claims to oppose Chavez because they view him as a threat to Latin American democracy (although, what democracy? its ruled by the Munroe doctrine) however the sentence quoted shouldnt be placed in the first paragraph, as to me at least it is a logical fallacy, it should be rephrased and put in a criticism section. I do have a pro-Chavez opion I dont deny it, but I believe the points I have made are perfectly logical, and we all have opinions, even those who contst what I have said.172.143.124.86 20:00, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I would be in favor of the change you propose. The entire topic seems to have been thoroughly vetted so as not to offend the delicate sensibilities of the leftist Wikipedia reader community; so much so that it reads like a Hugo Chavez puff piece. So why not make the change? It will make this topic even sillier. (At some point, somebody might be tempted to flag this topic as "a work of fiction written in in-universe style," but that's another issue.)

Do topics written like this tend to ruin the cred of the Wikipedia concept? I'm not sure. But in any case, the change you propose can't possibly make this topic worse, so go for it. Gruffbear 17:03, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia reflects reliable sources, not opinion. I'm sorry that your opinion isn't reflected in reliable sources, and I don't support editorializing or removing reliably sourced content. In fact, if there's any problem with that statement, it could be the sole mention of the US. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:10, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh well, it looks like I have a 2-1 consensus (having waited a week) because some editors cant take the project seriosuly, and feel they have to try and be funny......

Also check the sction below (i havent moved it up here yet) where I clarified what my points were and tried to show that Im not just POV spoapboxing.172.142.232.113 (talk) 00:29, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I moved this from the section below, a user replied to my comment (I think) in the wrong section172.142.197.162 (talk) 19:30, 8 December 2007 (UTC) :

Idiot! The elections were fixed beyond all proportion. You're just plain wrong. WRONG. grrr. Have you even been to Venezuela? No, probably not. The contention that Chavez is a threat to democracy is correct and substantiated. To leave it out of the article would be biased in favor of this dictator. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.215.66.1 (talk) 18:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I assume you meant to paste that in the section above, in response to what I wrote, please refrain from referring to me as an idiot, I do not think of myself as an idiot (I have a high IQ anyway...), however maybe I am... (my spelling suggests so =P) but it is not really for you to say so, you are right (admittedly) that I have not been to Venezuela. However, I have studied this topic (in both English and Spanish) and I know for a fact that these elections have been watched closely, and have been deemed free by both the left and the right (except possibly some far-right wing groups, though it would be presumptious to assume that you are a far right winger). I would say Venezuela (from what I gather about it) is pretty fair, considering Chavez's own media is allowed to launch specific and derogotory attacks on him, and tried to initiate a coup against him, and still not being competely smashed after Chavez's return to power..... living in England I can tell you that the media here is not allowed to go out of its way to criticise the government at all, its meant to remain impartial, in fact the BBC was prosecuted for not being impartial, so please dont give me a lecture about liberty of the media. My point was this, to me the statement that 'Chavez is viewed as a threat to democracy in the region ' simply makes no logical sense to me, its not that is unsourced, it just is a logical fallacy, like the sttement 'chairs generally have two legs' for example, I would have no problem with the statement 'Some hold the opinon that Chavez does not support democracy' . Specifically in the region makes no sense, the source used (BBC) only vaguely points to criticism and itself does not elaborate, I view the BBC a reputable as far as it goes, but it hardly gives any reason for its statment. In the region (by this I assume South America) the only democratically elected governments currently are left-wing, please name for me a democratically elected right-wing government in this region of South America, and ill change my opinion. By democratically elected I dont mean supported by America and its Munroe doctrine, I mean actually democratic with free elections. If you cannot give me an example I assume I am correct in believing the statement is a logical fallacy, and ill change it to what I proposed (unless someone can come up with something better). As far as I know Chavez is not a threat to any left-wing democracies in South America, and since the only demorcacies there are left-wing (as far as I know) he is not anti-democracy in the region. Also my question that: If Chavez is anti-democratic why did he liberalise Venezuela and its media? still has not been adressed.172.142.232.113 (talk) 00:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Im giving you guys a day to come up with the awnsers to my questions, If there arent any awnsers Ill assume I am correct in believing the statement in question was a logical fallacy, I propose changing the sentence to 'Some believe Chavez's policies to be contrary to democracy, including the present US government' unless someone comes up with something better. Seeing as I have a somewhat ridiculous 2-1 consensus in my favour (as one user cant take this project seriously and ;lodge specific and meaningful criticism). believe the source supports my change, and that the source did not give a specific reason for supporting the previous statement (what democracy in the region is right-wing? what democracy is not supported by Chavez in Latin America?). The source (short-bbc article, hardly authortative) however is not too vague to support my change, it shows that Chavez is criticised by some people as anti-democratic, but makes no sense with ' in the region '. 172.142.197.162 (talk) 19:30, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

One last thing, mainly just an inquisititive note as it is a matter of POV, why is America worried about lack of democracy in Latin America, when has it supported Latin American democracy over the Munroe doctrine? When has it supported Latin American democracy full stop? When has it supported dictators? 'cough' Pinochet 'cough' I cant remeber...172.142.197.162 (talk) 19:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

PS as I mentioned before, some dyslexia issues, bad spelling mainly, feel free to correct if your bothered

Also (this is a bit off topic but Im replying to an above comment), if your worried about offending our leftist sensibilities, maybe you should check out the wikipedia articles on the middle east, islam, islamophobia, and all those wacky obscurist nationalist groups in the middle east that have their own way with all their articles. Wikipedia is not solely left, nor is it solely right, its mixed.

Okay Ive waited a day since my original reply to the crticism I recieved, theere havent been any ansers to the questions I asked (in the big paragraph) yet, therefore ill log into my account and make the change I proposed (if I can retrieve my password...), you can remove it if you provide a reason why the statement as it is is not a logical fallacy, or you can discuss it here if you think it is too poorly written.172.216.245.193 (talk) 10:20, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Since I cant find my password, it gives you guys 4 days =P, seeing as its unlikely one of you will make the change for me.172.216.245.193 (talk) 10:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, the paragraph says

Chávez's reforms have evoked controversy in Venezuela and abroad, receiving anything from vehement criticism and enthusiastic support. Some people, especially in the government of the United States, view Chávez as a threat to democracy in Latin America. Others sympathize with his ideology or welcome his bilateral trade and reciprocal aid agreements. In 2005 and 2006 he was named one of Time magazine's 100 most influential people.

I understand the main idea of the paragraph is synthesising that HC is a controversial figure: some people & governments (specially the US gov) don't like him while some others do. What changes do you suggest? JRSP (talk) 10:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Well ive made a new account, I waited rather longer than I said I would, the change that I proposed is in the text and Ill be changing it to such a I havent heard any specific criticism of what I jave written. I have spelling and grammar issues so if you notice anything in what I have written feel free to correct it, but not change the meaning of what I have written without reason stated.Anti-BS Squad (talk) 18:53, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

What?, you mean Chavez supports democracy?, seriously i dont know what you mean when you say there is little democracy outside venezuela when most goverments such as brazil, colombia, argentina and chile have democratic systems. Chavez does seem to be a threat, he supports and admires Fidel Castro, who is a dictator and is against media that criticises him, furthermore lately he has been supporting FARC guerrilas in colombia and proposed to stop qualifying them as terrorists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.233.245.66 (talk) 22:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

To anon:

First, you are using the term Monroe Doctrine wrong. It was a doctrine of keeping European powers out of the western hemisphere. Not controlling latin American countries. I suppose if you want to push that that is the policy of the U.S. you could use an extension of Manifest Destiny or some such.

Almost all of latin America is now democratised, after a long systematic fight of Soviet inspired instigation, the forces supported by the U.S. were victorious and now democratic. Say what you want by the means to achieve those ends. Most of latin America supports neo-liberal politics and have opened up their economies from state beurocratic regulation, and are now rapidly developing and mildly prosperous as a result of those policies.

Democracy, capitalism, and close U.S. relations are the norm in latin america now. Socialism and Chavestistas are the fringe.

You have a very revisionist view not only of history, but contemporary events as well. Nobody would claim that most of latin America is dictatorships. You created a figment imagination that support your own worldview, because reality does not. Thus, your opinion of the wording in this article is worthless. I recommend all your edits to be reverted. Chudogg (talk) 07:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Doubtfully this will receive attention anytime soon. So to address the sentence: "Some people, especially in the government of the United States, view Chávez as a threat to democracy in Latin America.[3]". This is blatant POV pushing. First, i see no reason to single out the United States. Chavez has erupted globabl controversy with supporters and opposition in all countries, including Venezuela itself. By putting the qualifer "the government of the United States" the editor is trying to influence the reader to believe that it is only political and/or economic interests that oppose Chavez. This is blatantly false. The majority of posters on Democratic Underground and Daily Kos see Chavez as anti-Democratic. The majority, if not the entirety of major leftwing publications view Chavez as anti-Democratic (the Economist is a center-left publication, btw). Cleary, in the United States at least, the unified consenus from the entire political spectrum view chavez as anti-democratic, and only an extreme left faction support Chavez. It is obviouse that it is not merely "the government" in the U.S. that opposes Chavez as the above editor attempts to portray. To find views supporting Chavez one as to look towards minor socialist zines and websites. Hopefully a more indepedent minded admin will revert this POV.Chudogg (talk) 16:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok guys, i see you "democratic people" need a little help to stop writing stupidities. Understand this : In the world, there's as many people thinking USA are a threat to democracy than people thinking chavez is one.

Even if they're certainly far less richer than the first. Understood? So stop with your stupid POV about "some people blablabla"

Some people think bush is a pacifist, some people think whales can fly,etc etc....

U will always find some people to think something about someone so dont write this and stay focused on the facts

Bad evil chavez is against right-wing TV? But there's some in his country, while in the USA i don't heard about a leftist TV....(is there one in the whole NATO block?)

Stay to the facts and dont try to think, its far too painful for US citizens.77.196.65.163 (talk)

I was the priginal editor here, I lost my account password---again!, and I cant be bothered to make a new account because getting anything doen on wikipedia is a nightmare, I didnt make any edits in the end, because I could see there would be problems, I just left it, so your actually attacking the contribution of a right-wing editor, I didnt claim most of Latin America was run by dictatorships, I did claim that most of democratic Latin America supports Chavez and is left-wing in leaning, of course there is always argument over what is democratic, in some people's eyes (such as possibly yourself) democracy is only when the right is in power, and whatever government the right has in power is a democracy, sorry to say this is not the case. I dont see how Chavez is anti-democratic, only the American and to an extent his own media presents him as such, his own media has been allowed to take political liberties against him (and continue!) to an extent that would be unheard of in the US, or the UK (which incidentally is where I come from), there is not much evidence to say that Chavez is anti-democratic, considering independant watchdogs have usually indicated his elections were freer than that of the first election of George Bush Jnr, and Chavez has a free medai which in the past has even been allowed to lauch a coup against him. Considering the fact that the US was happy to replace a fairly elected presidentwith someone who would most likely lead the country into an authoritarian dictatorship, and have done with numerous other leaders in similar circumstances in the past (see Pinochet), I really dont see how this article can take the view point that America is actually concerned about democracy in the region, looking at history and the present the mere idea seems laughable to be honest.86.133.101.176 (talk) 20:44, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

two issues (effort to keep to the point) Someone early on top of this page has suggested that chavez brough back democracy in venezuela. that is only correct if you are willing to admit that it was chavez himself who tried to put out democracy in the early nineties. Venezuela has been a democracy since the late 50's, if I'm not mistaken. I have a lot of friends from there. Also, true, the CIA backed pinochet, but becuase he was bringing soviets into chile. you have to be honest when making statements about history. Not to defend US policy, but that's how things were during the cold war. US has always supported democracy in the whole world. that is not something to laugh at. methods can be debated, however. Motive is another 20 dollars, as they say.137.246.104.100 (talk) 19:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Editing

Why can I not edit this page? It's nothing substantial, only a grammatical mistake.--SCJE 18:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Article is semi-protected: anonymous users and new accounts can't edit it. You can wait a few days, request some administrator to remove protection or just say below what the mistake is and any "old" user can fix it. JRSP 18:20, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The error is found under the heading "2003-2004 recall Vote." the mistake itself is "The Colombians were outfit in Venezuelan military uniforms..." The word "outfit" should be in past tense (outfitted). Someone who is authorized please fix this. Thank you. --SCJE 18:29, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Education

On the introduction of Hugo Chavez it is said that he studied political science at the graduate level without obtaining a degree and it cites note number 8 as reference, but when note number 8 is read (text is in spanish), it clearly states that he obtained a masters degree but with his thesis pending. I think this implies that he was pursuing a Phd, for which a thesis would be necessary, (otherwise it wouldn't be stated in his biographie that his thesis is still pending), but since it isn't necessary to do a thesis for a masters degree, he did in fact obtain a masters degree in political science as cited on note 8 which a link to a venezuelan goverment website. In conclusion, someone miscited reference number 8 in saying that he left without a degree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Santafe785 (talk • contribs) 11:03, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Wrong, in the Venezuelan higher education system, a Thesis IS necessary for an Msc degree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.109.32.51 (talk) 16:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

In fact, Venezuelan higher education system officially uses the word "Thesis" only for doctoral dissertations. However, undergraduate degrees and master degrees usually require some research work, normally called trabajo especial de grado/maestría though many people informally call them tesis. Reference must be talking about his special research work for obtaining his master degree. JRSP (talk) 11:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Native American politician

I removed Category:Native American politicians from this article. For one thing, that category's supercats make it clear that it means "Native Americans" in the sense of people indigenous to what is now the U.S. Also, the article does not substantiate that Huguo Chávez is an indigenous person.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 23:06, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Chavez calls for second referendum

This is my first time suggesting a change to wikipedia, and I'm not sure how to do it, but I thought I'd mention this article I came across today, and how it's not in Chavez's main wiki entry. www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN1131818720080111

According to this Reuters article, during a state-of-the-nation address on Friday Jan. 11, 2008 Chavez once again brought up the idea of eliminating the constitutional provision on term-limits to his presidency and allowing him to run for re-election indefinitely-- despite a previous attempt failing back in Dec 2007. Although his second and final term is set to end in 2013, Chavez suggested holding a recall vote against himself in 2010, the earliest possible date, and "add[ing] a question in the referendum to also determine if Venezuelans want to give him the right of 'indefinite re-election.'"

Material removed from Code Pink article

We recently removed material from Code Pink after determining that said material was off-topic as far as Code Pink was concerned. An editor identified the material as being more appropriate on this article. If you're interested, here's the diff where we removed it: [2]. SchuminWeb (Talk) 11:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Military Policy

Please can I remove the excerpt under 'Military Policy' because it is not a Military Policy at all. --Uwaisis (talk) 20:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the entire section should be removed> It is not miltary policy and moreover has not context here...--Agrofe (talk) 20:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Removed it from article. Here's a copy if someone thinks it can be useful in the article or anywhere else:

A January 22, 2008 article from Associated Press states, "Venezuelan troops are cracking down on the smuggling of food... the National Guard has seized about 750 tons of food... Hugo Chavez ordered the military to keep people from smuggling scarce items like milk... He's also threatened to seize farms and milk plants..." [3]

JRSP (talk) 23:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with "military policy," and more importantly the article has been very selectively edited to give the impression that Chavez is enforcing a rationing policy, rather than regulations at the border. Another drive-by smear job. <eleland/talkedits> 00:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Citation There is a request for a citation under Early Life, the sentence can be sourced to The Observer, May 7th 2006, The new kid in the barrio. I do not seem to be able to put this in the article, or know how. Please include if possible. There is a link I found on the internet to the article http://www.guardian.co.uk/theobserver/2006/may/07/featuresreview.review

Delete Can someone also delete the last thing added to the article. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez&diff=190976084&oldid=190271538 —Preceding unsigned comment added by N4GMiraflores (talk • contribs) 20:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Worthy of Inclusion?

Following a March 1, 2008 Colombian raid on FARC headquarters inside Ecuador, in which FARC leader Raul Reyes and others were killed, Colombia's national police reported that documents recovered from Reyes's computer indicate financial ties between Hugo Chavez and the FARC.[4] One message from February 2008 allegedly mentioned US$300 million in Venezuelan support for FARC. The Colombian national police did not note, however, whether Venezuela actually delivered these funds to the rebels. Another document found on Reyes's laptop appears to contain a 1992 message from Hugo Chavez, who was imprisoned in Venezuela at the time. Chavez appears to be thanking the FARC for its delivery to Chavez of approximate US$150,000 (1992 value). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.211.242.80 (talk) 21:55, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Columbia believes it has enough evidence linking Chavez and FARC to have genocide charges brought against him by the international criminal court... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7277313.stm

yes it is, plus the fact that Interpol has investigated and found the laptop computers to be free of any manipulation, changes, etc, by the Colombian Govt. http://www.telemundodallas.com/noticias/16275736/detail.html?rss=dal&psp=noticias (talk) 16:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Not noteworthy

Note 27: http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/1418 does not appear to be a source worthy of wiki standards. I would venture to say that there are quite a few sources on this page that are full of these.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.157.98 (talk) 02:58, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Venezuelanalysis has both news and opinion pieces, so you have to look at the actual source. In this case it is a professor of political science at cornell who has written several books on the subject, so I don't see the problem. Vbevins (talk) 09:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

External links

Canadian Monkey said he's not clear "what part of WP:EL says [some external] link can't be used". Actually, the guideline says "No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justified", so I'd ask why this particular link should be included. JRSP (talk) 05:32, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Here are some links I cut from article, I don't think they provide additional resources for researchers on the subject so I moved them here for discussion:

• Diaz, Miguel. The Threat to Democracy in Venezuela and its Implications for the Region and the United States (PDF). Center for Strategic International Studies, Testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on Western Hemisphere, Peace Corps and Narcotics Affairs. June 24, 2004.
• Ortiz, Ana Maria, and Vadum, Matthew. "The American Friends of Hugo Chavez: Dial 1-800-4-TYRANT" Capital Research Center March 2008
• Pilger, John. "Chávez is a threat because he offers the alternative of a decent society." Guardian Unlimited, May 13, 2006.
• CIA Venezuela Destabilization Memo SurfacesNovember 28th 2007

JRSP (talk) 12:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality and Irrelevance

Under 'January 2007–present', second paragraph from the bottom it says 'At the same time the Venezuelan Government was also reported by BBC to be suing CNN'. Is this at the same time as noted in the paragraph below, which reports the same thing but in November 2007? And is the last paragraph even relevant? Isn't that just gossip? and should it be deleted? --Uwaisis (talk) 11:43, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Would like to volunteer to restructure

Does anyone else feel this article needs some restructuring? Clues that we need a plan:

• Article is way too long. I'm interested in all the subtopics related in this page, as well as in Chavéz, and I still can't stand to read it.
• Article is well over 200 references in length.
• Huge sections of timeline are not about Chavéz.
• The español language entry is half the length, with twice the content outside of the presidency timeline.
• Just like the content, much of the controversy relates to the timeline of his presidency, not Chavéz.

I'd like to see the presidential timeline simplified into 3 segments, with shorter excepts from the sub-pages. And more detail about his role in south american relations, early changes and drafting of the constitution, and the all-important demographic lines of "the popular movement" (you could read this entire article and not realize that the fundamental problem in Venezuela is that the poor are easily and readily polarized and Chavéz pushed for change at the cost of the media-controlling wealthy class). Basically, I think we should work to bring the english document in line with the spanish language one. Robbiemuffin (talk) 18:47, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Be Bold!. There is already an article on Presidency of Hugo Chávez, I think most of the material can be moved there in order to get a more concise main article. JRSP (talk) 19:09, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Dropped Authoritarian from Intro

There was an unsubstantiated declaration of Chavez as an "authoritarian socialist" in the intro. Although the nation's elections have been criticized by Chavez's opponents, he certainly hasn't shown any indication of outright authoritarianism. That's a heavy word. Joseph Stalin was an authoritarian socialist. Hugo Chavez; not so much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ktaylor (talk • contribs) 14:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Reverted to previous version which said "democratic socialism". Someone changed it to "authoritarian" in a previous edit. JRSP (talk) 21:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

"Chávez promotes a political doctrine of democratic socialism,[1] Latin American integration, and anti-imperialism." "Anti emperialism" goes way too far. For example Chávez calls kosov's prime minister a terrorist and refuses to recognize its independence[5] anddoes not support the Dalai Lama in the Tibetan cause [6]. That's fine, but you can't call someone like that an "anti-emperialist". - PietervHuis (talk) 20:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Would you explain why an anti-imperialist should support Kosovo and the Dalai Lama? I don't see the contradiction. Chávez often mention in his speeches he is against imperialism, BBC says he fights US imperialism[7], USA Today reports he calls for anti-imperialist unity[8] so please explain what the Dalai Lama has to do with this. JRSP (talk) 21:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Just because he calls himself an "anti-imperialist" doesn't make him one. What's an imperialist? If he doesn't even support freedom for tibetans you can't just represent him as an "anti-imperialist" because others would argue that china's "occupation" of tibet is a form of imperialism. The BBC article places the words "us imperialism" between quotations and as you can read further you can see that washington calls Chavez an imperialist even. I'm not representing my opinion that he's not an anti-imperialist, but his opponents would obviously not see him that way so it's a relative term and thus best to avoid. - PietervHuis (talk) 22:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The article said he promotes anti-imperialism not that he is an anti-imperialist. Multiple reliable sources support that he promotes this, and yes, this refers to what he says, we are not here to judge if this is true or not; the same thing applies to socialism, integration or whatever. True or false, the anti-imperialist discourse is an important element of Chávez public image.JRSP (talk) 23:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

That's what you find maybe. "Promoting" would mean that all his policies are factual examples of anti-imperialism and they're not. If you want it in it should read like "self-aclaimed anti-imperialist" instead of presenting it as fact. - PietervHuis (talk) 00:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

"Self-aclaimed" sounds as a word to avoid. There are multiple reliable sources saying that Chávez promotes anti-imperialism so I think you should provide at least a reputable source explicitly saying this is not true. Unless you provide a source, your interpretation that ' "Promoting" would mean that all his policies are factual examples of anti-imperialism and they're not ' is original research. JRSP (talk) 00:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I haven't seen any reliable sources that said so. Only that he himself, or his fans, claim so. The bbc article says that "Venezuela is being accused of being an imperialist country" and there's others who accuse him of being an imperialist[9]. There's also many sources which consider China's handling of Tibet Imperialism[10] and Chávez supported China on this. So there's one camp which claims that Chávez promotes anti-imperialism, and another that he doesn't and instead that he even promotes imperialism. That's why the controversial phrase should be left out. - PietervHuis (talk) 00:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Please check WP:Reliable sources. I don't think heritage.org or anarkismo.net count as "sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". Anti-imperialism is a recurring theme in HC's discourse and it is important enough to be mentioned in lead. Even in the USA Today article[11], he says "They're trying to sabotage the Olympics in Beijing, and behind that is the hand of imperialism." As wikipedia editors we are not here to judge if Chávez discourse is sincere or not, or what is anti-imperialism or what is not. But multiple reliable sources support his promotion of anti-imperialism, whatever that means.[12][13][14][15][16]. JRSP (talk) 01:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Again none of those sources say he's an anti-imperialist, only that he considers himself to be one. He's accusing pretty much the entire world of imperialism, while supporting (what some see as) Chinese Imperialism. I've also provided you with other sources that don't see him as an anti-imperialist and as such this may not be presented as fact per WP:NPOV. If it would be presented as a fact than that would mean that "the us being an imperialist country" would also be presented as fact. That's of course a matter of debate itself. If you want it included it should read "he claims to promote anti-imperialism" and not "he promotes anti-imperialism", but leaving it out completely is probably the best for this controversial topic. - PietervHuis (talk) 01:31, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Chavez called German chancellor 'Nazi'

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,552797,00.html "Chavez Says Merkel a Political Descendant of Hitler The German government has shrugged off a verbal attack on Chancellor Angela Merkel by Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez who called her a political descendant of Adolf Hitler and stopped just short of telling her to go to hell. The two leaders might meet at an upcoming summit in Peru. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.207.163 (talk) 09:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

And as a german, i can confirm Merkel is a Neoliberal Bush Ass Licker! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.226.136.63 (talk) 02:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Minor changes to opening

First off, what is known as "neo-liberalism", at least as he uses it, is basically the dominant force in the western world, and he uses it to describe conservatives as well as liberal people. This is something that members of the "socialist revolution" believe in but not many other people.

Secondly, it should say "socialism", rather than "democratic socialism". Simply not putting democratic beforehand is not saying that it isn't democratic, and besides, the Soviet Union considered itself a democracy. An example of democratic socialism is Sweden, and it's completely separate from Marxism, whereas Hugo Chavez's policies ARE inspired by Marxism, and he doesn't fit into this category. I think you would insult many people by calling Hugo Chavez a "democratic socialist", I mean, he talks about the 'socialist revolution' and the "Empire" just as much as any "communist" does. Contralya (talk) 09:25, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources to support these changes? Otherwise, I would disagree with your proposal? JRSP (talk) 10:38, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

He never talks about "democratic socialism" in his speeches, just "socialism". Look into the article about democratic socialism and how it different than soviet inspired 'communism'. Hugo Chavez gets along very well with Fidel Castro, who is a 'communist'. Hugo Chavez has often spoken of capitalism as evil. Contralya (talk) 07:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Chávez has been very explicit about his views on building socialism within the framework of democracy[17]. I don't understand your references to 'soviet inspired "comunism" ' or Fidel Castro or capitalism. Do you have some sources or is this just your personal view? Remember that WP does not allow original research. JRSP (talk) 11:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

LInk to Terrorism

why are we keeping HC's links to terror groups out of discussion?

http://www.interpol.int/Public/ICPO/PressReleases/PR2008/PR200817.asp —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ellyroldan (talk • contribs) 14:11, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Inflation Numbers

We need to update the inflation numbers since 2005. The Economist sites inflation in Venezuela as now being over 30% a year (over 26% a year is technically hyperinflation). This undermines is socialist platform and makes the poorest Venezuelans worse off... its pretty key to his presidency and probably will be his ultimate downfall so the graphs should show this... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benggriff (talk • contribs) 04:57, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Public Opinion

Maybe I missed it, but I really didn't see much about the public's opinion of him. Not the international community, but the people of his country. Would some please create a section about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.207.31 (talk) 03:23, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

No because a section on public opinion isn't relevant. I don't think other presidents of the world have a 'public opinion' section on Wikipedia so why should he. We should let what has happened do the talking. Wikipedia is suppose to let people come to a concise and well informed decision about people on their acts, a section on 'public opinion' would contradict this as it would be inadvertently telling people how to feel about him. We shouldn't be telling people how others feel about him, we should be helping them feel their own thing. --Uwaisis (talk) 00:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Friendship with Dictators

He was friends with Saddam Hussein, like he is now with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. There are any sources were he praised this dictators ? I remember he visited Iraq in 1999 and probably his great problem with Iraq War, was because of his agreements with Saddam Hussein. He calls Bush the Devil and says he smells to sulphur, or "the greatest genocidal ever", but seems to forget that he was smelling roses when he visited Iraq in 1999 and never cared about the curds genocide.85.244.48.94 (talk) 16:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines: The purpose of a Wikipedia talk page is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views.. JRSP (talk) 23:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I would like to propose then some references about his good relashionships with Saddam Hussein. Like it or not it's a fact.81.193.190.20 (talk) 19:03, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Updated economic charts

I updated the economic charts with 2006 information (2007 information is not yet available). If you click on the graph, it will go to the page for that png image, which contains a link to the XLS file that I used in 2006. However, for some reason, Wikipedia doesn't allow me to upload an XLS file anymore, so I don't know how to update that old XLS file in there. Loisel (talk) 00:19, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone have access to Venezuela government statistics? For some reason, the WDI doesn't have any unemployment figures after 2003, and I vaguely recall that people didn't want me to use the CIA World Factbook figures.

I don't even know what the Venezuela government stats web site is. And in any case, I don't speak spanish.

Halp!

Loisel (talk) 22:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

• "EconPov" :
  • The Economist ([[February 16]] [[2006]]), [http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=5526589 Venezuela: Mission Impossible,] ''The Economist'', Retrieved [[22 June]] [[2006]].
  • The Economist ([[February 16]] [[2006]]). [http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=5526589 Venezuela: Mission Impossible.] ''The Economist'', Retrieved [[22 June]] [[2006]].
• "PostVoterRolls" :
  • Bronstein, H. ([[June 14]] [[2006]]), [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/14/AR2006061400486.html "Colombians in Venezuela thank Chavez for new life",] ''Washington Post'', Accessed [[22 June]] [[2006]]. Also available at [http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2006/06/14/colombians_in_venezuela_thank_chavez_for_new_life/ boston.com,] Accessed [[28 May]] [[2007]].
  • Bronstein, H. ([[June 14]] [[2006]]), [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/14/AR2006061400486.html "Colombians in Venezuela thank Chavez for new life",] ''Washington Post'', Accessed [[22 June]] [[2006]].
• "Crosshairs" :
  • ''Márquez Humberto''. (IPS [[March 9]] [[2006]]) [http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=27799 "Statements Indicate Chávez May Indeed Be in Somebody's Crosshairs".] Accessed [[21 June]] [[2006]]. Also available at [http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/venezuela/2897.html globalexchange.org]
  • ''Márquez Humberto''. (IPS [[March 9]] [[2006]]) [http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=27799 Statements Indicate Chávez May Indeed Be in Somebody's Crosshairs]. Retrieved [[21 June]] [[2006]]]
  • ''Márquez Humberto''. (IPS [[March 9]] [[2006]]) [http://www.ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=27799 "Statements Indicate Chávez May Indeed Be in Somebody's Crosshairs".] Accessed [[21 June]] [[2006]].

DumZiBoT (talk) 10:12, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Relashionship with Saddam Hussein

This part deserves more development, since it's very controversial. He visited Saddam Hussein in Iraq, in 1999. It should be mencioned if he ever showed any criticism of his regimen.81.193.220.58 (talk) 16:08, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

date mess

There was an unholy mixture of US and international date formats. Which is it to be? During the audit, I chose US, since there seemed to be slightly more of them. Buzz me if you want them clicked back again. At least our readers see consistency in the main text now. Tony (talk) 08:03, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

In fact, the whole article needs an audit

Ouch, I see MoS breaches, I see bad prose, I see potentially serious POV, I wonder about the overall balance of the references. Let's take a quick look.

• Opening sentence: for good reasons, MOSNUM says don't use "currently". What does it mean next year? Or next decade?
• "Also" is redundant.
• This claim, in the second sentence, is referenced by an article by a Western journalist. The closest thing I can find to a supporting statement is "The Venezuelan leader went on to launch a defense of the sort of democratic socialism practiced in his country where, despite the success of a group of right wingers who overthrew him for 48 hours and proclaimed a dictatorship in 2002." Apart from the fact that the journalist's sentence is horribly ungrammatical and hard to make sense of for that reason, it's not quite the support for the claim I was looking for. It's a second-hand reference, anyway, through the Taiwan Times website, not the original Observer. The spelling isn't British; I wonder what else has been changed without our own readers' knowing it.
• Redundant "in".
• "Nation wide" is one word.
• When it says "The government of the United States claims that Chávez is a threat to democracy in Latin America.", the implication is that only or chiefly one of the most partisan, extremist and incompetent administrations ever to grace the White House is a critic of Chavez. But this is not at all the case. The lead appears very unbalanced to me.
• "In 2005 and 2006 he was named one of Time magazine's 100 most influential people." SInce little oxygen is given in the lead to either domestic and international criticism of this highy controversial figure, it appears a bit puffy to privilege (by inclusion at the opening) the point that he made it into the top 100 most influential people, as a bald statement. In fact, influence of itself is no claim to moral virtue or good governance (Hitler would have made it into the top five in the 1940s); yet in the context, it's cleverly depicted as praiseworthy in this most unsatisfactory entree.

Indeed, the opening is a forerunner to serious problems in the whole text. A makeover is necessary. Tony (talk) 08:22, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

In fact, all criticism was exercised from this article years ago and the article has been Wiki's single most glaring failure of our WP:NPOV policy for years. Not only is it thoroughly POV and unbalanced, and riddled with prose and MoS errors, it's also outdated and overly long, still using largely text that was written in 2005, well before many documented Chavez incidents. I don't expect any improvement until Wikipedians decide to take notice, which I don't expect to happen. I'm glad you stopped by on your date delinking tour though Tony (by the way, they use international date formatting in Venezuels). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, I hesitate to change it to European format until the guideline for non-anglophone-country-related articles is resolved at MOSNUM, unless other editors here are keen for a prompt change. I hope for resolution at MOSNUM within a week ... Tony (talk) 08:39, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Since this article has far more serious issues than incorrectly formatted dates, while I appreciate that you caught it on your date tour, it's hardly worth focusing on the dates when the article should have a multiple issues tag and badly needs a complete rewrite, resourcing, balancing, updating, and NPOVing. Date formatting is the least of this article's concerns, and could be undertaken if the article issues are ever addressed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:12, 9 September 2008 (UTC)