Talk:Barlaam and Josaphat

I moved this page to make room for a page for Josaphat (king), one of the kings of Judah. --ESP 19:12, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Would that be Jehoshaphat? At any rate, I strongly suspect that at some point, Jehoshaphat's name got confused with the name of this character. It's the only explanation I can think of for the weird change of initial consonant from B to J. User:Angr 15:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

It appears from the article that the change took place in the 8th century Arabic version. The change may have been prompted by the resemblance to the name Josaphat (Yehoshafat), but probably originated in the fact that the difference between initial Ba and initial Ya in Arabic is whether there is one or two dots below the letter. Ba has one dot, Ya has two.

BobGriffin-Nukraya 21:34, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

One small problem...

It doesn't at all seem similar to Gautama Buddha's story. I won't run down a list of bullet points but except for smatterings of "king" and "hermit" I see nothing substantially similar.<Message added by User:24.218.222.105 at 04:10, 17 April 2006. Please sign your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~)>

There are plenty of parallels. It would take too long to list them, but you might like to download this 450kB pdf which has a chapter about it. Scroll to chapter 9 (page 153 in the printed edition).--Shantavira 14:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

You should take a look at "Otras Inquisiciones", a book, published in 1952 by the great argentinean writer Jorge Luis Borges, where he describes, in a short article called, according to the portuguese translation, "Formas de uma Lenda" - in English could be "Variatons of a Legend" - , the same parallels. According to Borges, Buddha's legend, as the centuries went by and the oral transmission of the story from the East to the West provoked gradual modifications, became Barlaam and Josaphat's story and, given to that, Siddharta Gautama became a Saint for the Catholic Church.

I see some small parallels, but nothing to draw a proving conclusion like this article does. It seems this stems from the movement that likes to portray Christianity as a collection of other religions.

Pronunciation

Hello,

I'm curious if any of you know how to properly pronounce the name 'Barlaam'. Thanks

Adam s 11:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

In the movie "Repentance" ("Monanieba" was the Georgian title) directed by Tengiz Abuladze in 1987, the main character is "Varlam Aravidze". Since the Greek Beta softens to Veta, the pronunciation of Varlam's name is probably that of Barlaam, at least in Greek. Bar Lahm (lahm sounds like the first syllable of 'lama') or Var Lahm. BobGriffin-Nukraya 21:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

John of Damascus versus Euthymius of Athos

John of Damascus died in the mid 8th century, while Euthymius died in the early 11th century. If John Damascene is the actual author/editor of the Barlaam and Ioasaph, then it must have entered the Christian world well before the time of Euthymius. It does appear from the name of the work by Euthymius, 'Sibrdzne Balavarisa (Wisdom of Balahvari)', that Euthymius' source was not the work attributed to John of Damascus (see wiki page for Euthymius of Athos). This brings into question my claim (above) that the Georgian name 'Varlam' is derived from Barlaam. BobGriffin-Nukraya 01:58, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The article at project Gutenberg ( http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext96/bioas10.txt ) states that the story is 'believed to have been translated into Greek (possible from a Georgian originial) sometime in the 11th century A.D.' Attribution to John of Damascus is traditional. The title refers to one John the monk (Ο Ιωαννης Ο Μοναχος) from the monastery of Saint Sabas which would be the monastery of Mar Saba, where John of Damascus dwelt after leaving Damascus. Whether the title is intended to refer to John of Damascus or to someone else is not clear. However there is no tradition (known to me) of John of Damascus travelling from there.

So it looks like the evidence supports Euthymius of Athos as preceding the Greek translation 65.123.241.82 23:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Saint Josaphat → Barlaam and Josaphat — reason for move Lima 13:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

• Support The article is more about the legend called "Barlaam and Josaphat" than about the alleged Saint Josaphat, who was never canonized; it is about both alleged saints, not one only; "Barlaam and Josaphat" is the name of the corresponding other-language Wikipedia articles and the articles in other encyclopedias Lima 13:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Support per Lima. --Kober 15:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Support. While the interest here is in the story, and it should be under that title, Lima's remarks are far too strong. Several third-century saints are apocryphal, and few were ever canonized. Septentrionalis 21:06, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.