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Revision as of 03:12, 26 November 2008

For a Table-of-Contents only list of candidates, see Wikipedia:Featured articles/Candidate list

Multilingual Wikipedians needed

Sandy has suggested that we write a Dispatch on the featured content processes on other wikis. We have already had volunteers translate the requirements for the Spanish, French, and German wikipedias. Ideally, we'd like to cover the 10 most popular, so we are looking for editors who can translate the featured content rules on the wikis for these languages:

Italiano · Nederlands · 日本語 · Polski · Português · Русский

If you are able to read one of these languages (at minimum at the intermediate level), please feel free to add notes about their featured content processes at Wikipedia:FCDW/OtherWikis. Thanks! Karanacs (talk) 15:45, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm doing Dutch (Nederlands). Эlcobbola _talk 15:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the "credit where credit due department", actually it was Awadewit's suggestion at WT:FCDW. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:09, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think I can get someone to translate the Portuguese one. Awadewit (talk) 06:52, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fvasconcellos can do that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:00, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind then. :) Awadewit (talk) 17:49, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We still need Polish, ~~Japanese~~ and Italian. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:07, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I may be able to find someone to do the Italian one. Wrad (talk) 17:57, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Millennium '73

Millennium '73 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Could use some fresh FAC reviewers on this one. The FAC has seen a few of the same people commenting back and forth, but could use some previously uninvolved editors to take a fresh look and give an evaluation. Comments would be appreciated. Thank you, Cirt (talk) 21:46, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Most of the debate at the FAC has taken place between this controversial article's top-five contributors. Awadewit (talk) 05:50, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Context

Sandy pointed this out up above, but it has been lost in the slugfest. Anybody interested in revisiting it? I see little point in pushing ahead with discussion of other changes if they are likely to be reverted on the same basis. Yomangani ^talk 12:20, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is Christopher Parham the only Opposer, then? Just asking. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 12:37, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt it. I did not revert, and didn't object to the attempt to add it, but I think Christopher was right that there was not a definite consensus for it and that it was not clear how the new phrase would be interpreted in practice. I think it was reasonable for someone to revert.

How about nominating four or five editors, who represent some of the differing points of view on this, to work together at the Wikipedia:Content_review/workshop and try to come up with a consensus suggestion for review by everyone here? That workshop has been silent for a while; the idea was to give interested parties a separate location for the conversation. It had one success -- the automation of peer review -- but has not been very active for a while now. Mike Christie (talk) 12:48, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That would be better? I would propose (ducking) another method, but I suppose it will be shot down: I would suggest that everyone (except me) participate in a "brainstorming session" to come up with better verbiage. I would further suggest that arguments be kept to a bare minimum; only comments that refine or seek to refine a given suggestion should be offered. No Opposes to any suggestion allowed, for a period to be agreed upon (beforehand or after the fact, whatever). I'm just thinking, crap, the cycle is endless: we have one or two ideas, we bicker over them endlessly, etc. Then while we're busy bickering over proposals unlikely to pass, no one is thinking of new ones. How's about we temporarily skip over the bickering part? Just a thought.Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 13:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We need specific proposals to debate, I agree, but we need to be sure that once they are agreed upon by those discussing them, they are not reverted by one person. If one person can upset the consensus, then these reform efforts are fruitless. Awadewit (talk) 22:12, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly true. It appears that this mythical wikipedia "consensus" is at best illusory if one editor can overturn what's been agreed between the other interested parties. What's the point? There will always be someone who disagrees with anything; should that person have the deciding vote? "Consensus" on wikipedia is simply another name for "stasis". Nothing changes, except insofar as it just continues to get worse. --Malleus Fatuorum 22:20, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No offense is intended to either Mike or Christopher, but I just reverted Christopher's reversion of yesterday. After carefully reading the FACs that were linked in that discussion, it seems clear that the community already uses this standard to determine what passes and what fails. You can argue that the wording isn't perfect or that we don't know exactly what it means yet, but I think it's clear that the criteria including Awadewit's phrase are a better representation of reality than without. Even if that weren't true, please re-read the discussion. We rarely get that kind of consensus around here; let's cherish the moment! - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 22:30, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The reason that the community already uses this standard is that it is already present in the criteria and has been for a long time. An article that does not establish context does not contain all major facts and details about the topic. Nobody, so far as I can tell, has claimed differently. At the same time, there's no agreement that the outcome of any past or future FAC would be changed by this addition. The implication that this is a "reform effort", when nobody believes that it alters either the spirit or practical application of the criteria, mystifies me; immaterial changes in wording do not constitute reform. Christopher Parham (talk) 23:34, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since the additional wording apparently makes the criterion clearer for some people and you believe that it doesn't doesn't alter the criteria there is no reason to remove it. Hooray, consensus re-established. Arf. Yomangani ^talk 00:25, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Christopher, we have worked together at WT:MOS and WT:Layout and you are good at seeing these things ... when you take the time to read it through and think it through. Don't cut corners here; there are a lot of FACs to read in order to pick up the pattern. Read those links above, and consider whether coverage of "context" or "background" isn't a reasonable way of describing whether recent short-ish FACs have succeeded or not. IMO it's a much better description of what's actually happening than just looking at how the relevant "facts" of the subject were covered. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 00:27, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just my two cents on this issue: the context phrase is definitely needed in FAC criteria. Stating facts without giving Reader any context surrounding those facts can be a very POV way to present a subject. I cant see how any article could be considered FA quality if it does not give Reader context and I support Awadewit's proposal. NancyHeise ^talk 15:22, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I imagine an nominator in the future will omit a section on the larger implications of a subject because the FA criteria did not mention it. There are some categories of articles that are so small there are too few FAs to model after, so at times, the FA criteria is all to go on. --Moni3 (talk) 15:30, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(←) I'm in favour of the context clause too, and believe it has consensus support. Geometry guy 21:37, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I too favor the context clause. I don't see what harm it causes, and it can only help. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:51, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Featured short articles and systemic bias

On Wikipedia, systemic bias refers to uneven coverage caused by imbalances in the editor demographics. For example, most Wikipedians are American, so American topics are well covered. In contrast, few Singaporeans edit Wikipedia and hence coverage of Singaporean topics is lacking. Systemic bias is a severe problem, but it often goes unnoticed.

I oppose the proposed FSA process as I believe it will worsen systemic bias. There are two main types of short articles: those on over-represented topics and those on under-represented topics. Based on the discussions I have read, FSA is clearly intended to recognise short articles about things like American roads and popular culture, which fall into the former category. Articles in the latter category will be left out in the cold, discouraging editors from working on them and thus worsening systemic bias.

Comprehensiveness is not the only reason why the FA process puts articles in the latter category at a disadvantage. Editors who focus on the latter category of articles are usually not native speakers of English, making criterion 1a an impossible mountain for them to climb. A Singapore-related article that failed FAC for this reason would be Odex's actions against file-sharing. There are other reasons, which I shall not go into here.

The last time a Singapore-related article passed FAC was in July 2007. But in the following seventeen months, over thirty Singapore-related articles achieved GA status. These include many short history articles written by Aldwinteo, such as Long Ya Men and Early Founders Memorial Stone.

GA is still the best process for recognising excellent short articles in both categories. Since FA (and FSA) cannot include both categories of short articles, they should exclude both categories and let GA be the inclusive process. Instead of introducing an FSA process, we should give greater recognition to GAs - such as by letting GAs appear on the Main Page and showing a GA plus on the top-right corner of GAs. This proposal would keep FA status reserved for the best articles, better recognise short articles, help fight systemic bias and keep down the bureaucracy that would arise from the proposed FSA process.

It is time for the bitter rivalry between FA and GA to stop. It is time for us to unite. It is time for GA to be integrated with the other processes that recognise quality content. It is time for us to fight systemic bias. Can we change? Yes, we can.

--J.L.W.S. The Special One (talk) 16:00, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Until I can make some time for this, my suggestion is: don't push any one solution to any one problem too hard. Let people air their grievances over their own issues at their own speeds. It will all work out. (Disclaimer: this does not mean that it's okay for sour people to drop in on random FACs sowing discord. That's a topic ban waiting to happen if I ever saw one.) - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 16:41, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Paul Gondjout failed FA for two reasons: shortness and verifiability (it was partially translated, which is apparently a big no-no around here). He was a Gabonese politician, and consequently there was little about him outside French, which I can't even speak. ~the editorofthewiki ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 19:16, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I looked over that and it seems like the concern wasn't just that it was translated, but that there was reason to believe that, since no professional, fluent translator had looked over the sources, it may not be ready. Other articles have had translated material and been just fine, such as El Senor Presidente. Wrad (talk) 19:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is FSA an existent, live, approved by consensus element within Wikipedia? The pages there give the impression that it is and is not, depending on how you view them. It's most peculiar. And I strongly object to the concept per se - and wonder where I can/should/should have registered my opinion. --Dweller (talk) 20:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is a proposal only. Some heated discussions regarding it usually became diverted to other issues. For example, the issue of TFA became entwined with it, some wanting to rule out short FAs because they then would be in the pool for TFAs. If you look in the archives, you can find the discussions. Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/archive32 —Mattisse (Talk) 20:22, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gosh, I've missed a lot. But if it's just a proposal, the project page should be labelled as such. --Dweller (talk) 20:29, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here you go, Dweller: Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/archive31#Wikipedia:Excellent short articles. It was something that Marskell and Worldtraveller kicked around for years, years ago. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:47, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki-GDP per capita of Asian WikiProjects

Ah, wrt JLWS, this gives me a chance to flaunt some statistics I made on the Asian nation-state WikiProjects. I gave points on a 3-2-1 basis for FA/A/GA and then divided them by the millions of people in the country. Per capita, Singapore is miles ahead of most of them (data as of earl 2008). I'd say the main problem is that the Singaporean editors don't seem to be effective at votestacking, unlike some of the other nation-state/ethnic WikiProjects, which have 100% support for their own WikiProjects' articles. Also, some of them have very high turnout rates compared to active editors, eg 300 edits per month for an active editor. Also, as to the language comment, English is a mainstream language in Singapore, as it is in Israel, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, moreso than the other Asian countries. YellowMonkey (click here to choose Australia's next top model!) 00:56, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Send all short articles to GA by default? I concur, wholeheartedly! And so I think would Outriggr, if I understand his "Send to GA" suggestion a while back. But will this pass, or if it does, will it pass smoothly? I doubt it... It's all about the pride of bearing the gold star. No really, every bitter argument at FAC is about that. People just want that damn gold star. It makes them feel proud, special, etc. Then... some people get the star who (in my opinion, at least, but I think objectively as well) don't deserve it... then people who are stopped from getting it are pissed because they compare their articles to the ones that got it but didn't deserve it.. and.. so on.. and so.. on. And people who write short articles will be pissed if the gold star is disallowed for their efforts. It's all about the pride of getting the gold star. All of it. For that reason, there will always be at least some level of acrimony at FAC, because not everyone can get the gold star, and some people will be axe-grinders and poison-spewers when they don't. So... color me a little cynical about all proposals to help the problem. :-) But I support sending all short articles back to GA by default. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 02:42, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the problem is that there are competing visions of what FA is or should be; we've failed when debating changes that address those visions because there are too many choices, and we've failed when discussing individual changes because without agreement on the overall raison d'être of FA there is little chance of agreement on individual points. I'm not optimistic we'll get anywhere at this point. I'll participate in any likely-looking discussion but am not expecting to see one. The status quo, though it's not where I personally would like it, still generates good quality articles, and it'll do if we can't figure out how to improve it. Mike Christie (talk) 02:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
PS In addition to supporting short articles back to GA by default, I now have changed my position regarding GA: I agree they should get the green dot, and I agree that some GAs should hit the main page from time to time. The GA process should very, very, very carefully select the GAs that go, giving preference to shorter articles. I say all this because the damn gold star is just too unique and precious, and as long as that's true, There Will Be Bitterness... people need to have some reason to value GA more as well. It's all about pride... but if those ideas don't fly, then I'm with Mike: keep the status quo, be far stingier on FACS, that's all. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 02:55, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What exactly is a short FA? As far as I've heard, no article has ever been opposed solely because it was short. There is no length requirement in the criteria. Wrad (talk) 03:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ec @Ling) Sounds to me like if you want GAs on the main page and you want short articles to get deserved recognition, that's the same as acknowledging the wisdom of Marskell (recognizing excellent short articles). But since he's no longer here to make it happen, and make it happen well (as he did the FAR redesign), I don't expect it will: a shame that we lost a contributor of such dedication. If you want short articles on the mainpage, I'd rather see them vetted through a community process wrt WP:WIAFA then a one-editor-pass process. And I was never convinced by the argument that short articles would drain resources from here (I will claim that I was proven right, since the discussions of the past months have effectively cut FA production in half, yet the page still lags for reviews, because the people reviewing the long FACs are still the same group, while a different group reviewed short articles). Whatever: so instead of recognizing featured short articles, we'll have half as many FAs and one-editor-pass GAs on the mainpage? Doesn't make sense to me, but what do I know? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:05, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I guess we are fated to live in the past, talking about discussions that have already happened, repeating them over again, and mourning over editors who have left. Same old, same old. —Mattisse (Talk) 03:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 109: / Line 109: @@
 *:::What exactly ''is'' a short FA? As far as I've heard, no article has ever been opposed ''solely'' because it was short. There is no length requirement in the criteria. [[User:Wrad|Wrad]] ([[User talk:Wrad|talk]]) 03:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 *::: (ec @Ling)  Sounds to me like if you want GAs on the main page and you want short articles to get deserved recognition, that's the same as acknowledging the wisdom of Marskell (recognizing excellent short articles). But since he's no longer here to make it happen, and make it happen well (as he did the FAR redesign), I don't expect it will: a shame that we lost a contributor of such dedication. If you want short articles on the mainpage, I'd rather see them vetted through a community process wrt [[WP:WIAFA]] then a one-editor-pass process. And I was never convinced by the argument that short articles would drain resources from here (I will claim that I was proven right, since the discussions of the past months have effectively cut FA production in half, yet the page still lags for reviews, because the people reviewing the long FACs are still the same group, while a different group reviewed short articles). Whatever: so instead of recognizing featured short articles, we'll have half as many FAs and one-editor-pass GAs on the mainpage? Doesn't make sense to me, but what do I know? [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 03:05, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
+*::::I guess we are fated to live in the past, talking about discussions that have already happened, repeating them over again,  and mourning over editors who have left.  Same old, same old. &mdash;[[User:Mattisse|<font color="navy">'''Mattisse'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Mattisse|Talk]]) 03:12, 26 November 2008 (UTC)