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Polish politicians

A number of Polish politicans' articles contain old data.Xx236 (talk) 10:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Hardly surprising, consider how undermanned we are... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Portaying Nazi Germany as performing atrocities just like Poland

I just found this: "In 1939, the German Wehrmacht invaded Poland. Atrocities were committed on both sides during and after the invasion.[3][4][5]" From : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Pomerania_(1933-present) To me this is unacceptable take on history. You can express your comment here[1]

--Molobo (talk) 20:50, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Polish Corridor was German propaganda idea

I have several times protested against the anti-Polish propaganda idea of the Polish Corridor. The Polish name was Pomeranian Voivodeship. Please don't support German nationalistic (even Nazi) POV. Xx236 (talk) 07:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean? Polish Corridor is certainly a very common term in English, and has its well-known Polish equivalents (korytarz polski/gdański) - AFAIUI it dates from the time of the Versailles negotiations and has nothing to do with German nationalism (at least, originally it didn't).--Kotniski (talk) 09:52, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

In what way would you like us to "not support the German POV"? Not edit the article? Delete it and pretend the concept never existed? Ignore English usage and use only Polish terms to refer to the area?

In the meantime, feel free to edit the article yourself to add reliably sourced material as to the term's usage in Poland, Germany and the outside world. Knepflerle (talk) 10:12, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I hardly can oppose all editors. I ask them to read and to reflect.

A number of concepts existed, but aren't described in this Wikipedia or are described as POV. Masters' opinions about former colonies aren't generally quoted as academic. Xx236 (talk) 10:41, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

pl:Korytarz polski quotes Józef Beck and informs about an academic book, using "korytarz" in parantheses. Xx236 (talk) 10:53, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Here's an example of the term being used by the NYT in early 1919.--Kotniski (talk) 10:58, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I bet that many US newspapers used to write N* about Afroamericans, but they don't anymore. So please don't write N* about Poles.Xx236 (talk) 11:00, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Even if you think this makes the NYT an irreparably biased source on all topics (and this a ridiculous assumption), it is still the definitive source as regards its own editorial viewpoint ("Opinion pieces are only reliable for statements as to the opinion of their authors, not for statements of fact", WP:RS). Knepflerle (talk) 11:25, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

A more academic explanation you can find in texts by Norman Davies and Ewa Thompson.Xx236 (talk) 11:03, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

It's hardly comparable with the N* word (which in any case does have its own article). Do Davies and Thompson not refer to the Corridor? In any case, I'm not sure exactly what changes you're proposing - can you be specific (or be bold and make them)?--Kotniski (talk) 11:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

They refer to Western/Russian imperialism oriented against smaller cultures and Thompson refers to people (e.g. Polish ones), who accept cultural imperialism.Xx236 (talk) 11:18, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Once more, with feeling: in the meantime, feel free to edit the article yourself to add reliably sourced material as to the term's usage in Poland, Germany and the outside world. Looks like you've got sources and have read them. Nothing's stopping you adding the material. Go ahead. Knepflerle (talk) 11:15, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Polish (Gdansk/Danzig) Corridor and Pomeranian Vovodeship are two different concepts. Yes, the first one is a creation of German Nazi propaganda. So? It is still notable and deserves its own article.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC) Untermensch is an example of an article about German propaganda idea. The Polish Corridor is about the legitimate Polish territory from German POV. Symetriclaly we need an article about German Upper Silesia or Ziemia Złotowska as potentially Polish areas.Xx236 (talk) 07:25, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

What makes you so sure about the "Nazi propaganda term"? The article states:"The term was first used by Polish politicians and came into international use, but was later criticised by Polish politicians as a German nationalistic term.[2]" Also, Kotniski provided an example of usage in the Anglo-Saxon world in 1919, which obviously excludes the possibility that the term was coined by Nazi propaganda. All in all, I'd really be interested in understanding why "corridor" is regarded to be that offensive here. Skäpperöd (talk) 17:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Interesting, but the ref is hard to verify (offline German book?) Who is Hartmut Boockmann? Further, the term was predominantly used by German/Nazi propaganda, even if it had originated and/or been used by other parties. After all, the term was most popularized by the fact that it was an integral part of the German ultimatum to Poland, just before the invasion, isn't that right? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Bookmann was a professor of history with an excellent standing. The "offline German book" is most likely "Deutsche Geschichte im Osten Europas, Ostpreußen und Westpreußen, Berlin 1992 ISBN 3-88680-212-4" (German history in the East of Europe, East Prussia and West Prussia), published under his name. I don't think the term really was made popular only by the ultimatum two (one?) day before the invasion, that ended the very existance of the corridor. What mattered much more was always Danzig and a passage through the corridor, not its annexation (although one might of course argue how honest that was, and that's afaik why the Polish officials kept rejecting those requests). Skäpperöd (talk) 19:18, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Bookmann or (as in the article where he is cited) Boockmann? Could you stub an article on him? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:34, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

My spelling error, it's of course Boockmann. I can give you a google book snippet for now from the page cited in the article (I have looked, it is indeed from the book cited above). The snippet is of course in German, but it is at least verifiable that the source really states that it was first used in Poland, and then became adopted elsewhere ([2]). Skäpperöd (talk) 19:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

(update:) I stubbed Hartmut Boockmann from de-wiki. I saw the russian wiki has an article on him that seems to contain even more information than the german one. You are still pretty young, but maybe you remember some of the Russian lessons of your first grades? Or did you not have to learn Russian in Poland? Skäpperöd (talk) 20:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the stub. FYI, I mine was the first school year that canceled previously obligatory Russian classes. Instead, I know French (and English).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

New York times wrote

• on March 18, 1919: POLISH "CORRIDOR."; Paris Paper Sketches Proposed Strip to Danzig.
• on August 16 ,1920: Russians Hoist the German Flag Over Soldau; Say Polish Corridor Will Be Returned to Germany
• on March 17, 1919: Plan to Give Germany Land Communication Across Polish Corridor to the Baltic
• on November 16, 1930 EUROPE SOREST SPOT: THE POLISH CORRIDOR.; THE OLD GERMAN PORT OF DANZIG
• on August 17, 1932 GERMANS UNITED ON POLISH CORRIDOR

and you will find plenty of more examples like that. I don't think NYT was influenced by Nazis in 1919. 84.139.227.188 (talk) 20:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Logical fallacy: we use this term and I hope none of us here are Nazi propagandists :) The point is that the term was most often used and valuable to German propaganda - although granted, this assertion requires citations. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

The term "Polish Corridor" was not only used in Germany and not only by the Nazis. A Danish translation of the term is "(den) polske korridor" and this term is used e.g. in the 1930 edition of Salmonsens Konversationsleksikon (Denmark's largest encyclopedia ever). Of all places, in the article about railways.("the German railway network was reduced due to [Germany's] territorial concessions following the [first world] war and is cut in two separate parts by the Polish corridor.")[3] The same expression can be found in Danish newspaper articles from the 1920s and e.g. in the same encyclopedia's article about Poland [The same expression can be found in Danish newspaper articles from the 1920s. It also appears in the same encyclopedia's article about Poland itself [4] and that volume dates from 1924. ("A first subdevision of this region is the Polish corridor which now essentially is part of the Voivodie of Pomorze which forms Poland's only access to the sea") 83.89.16.138 (talk) 23:25, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Xx236 started this discussion by protesting against "the anti-Polish propaganda idea" and the support of "German nationalistic (even Nazi) POV". In fact it was simply the term everybody used in the 1920s and 30s, even General Sikorski, Polish Minister of War, did in 1925 here and Sikorski wouldn't use an anti-Polish propaganda term, would he?. 84.139.218.64 (talk) 10:07, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I inserted a terminology section in the article and felt free to start this section with the sourced information given here. Everyone welcome to expand. Skäpperöd (talk) 10:23, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

pl:Korytarz polski quotes minister Józef Beck's opinion. The region had official and academic Polish names and such names should be preferred. A Polish academic text uses "korytarz" (in parantheses). Xx236 (talk) 12:12, 3 December 2008 (UTC) Sikorski talked to French journalists, using their ideas. Xx236 (talk) 12:15, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

"official and academic Polish names ... should be preferred" - wrong. Read WP:COMMONNAMES and WP:UE. We do not base our naming on notions of "official-ness" or because they are autochthonous. The most common name is used for the title, then other names can and should be mentioned, and their origin and usage explained and sourced in the text. Feel free to edit the article yourself to add further reliably sourced material on this matter, if you feel it is necessary. Knepflerle (talk) 15:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Does Beck even represent modern Polish historiography? All the quote does indicate is that he (and presumably interwar Polish diplomacy) disliked the term. A fact certainly worth mentioning in our article, but this is not Beckpedia :) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I understand the Beck speech of May 39 is not an indicator for Polish interwar diplomacy - in that speech, Beck wanted (and succeeded) to swear in the parliament in an emotional way to reject any of the Nazi German offers concerning Danzig and the corridor. This put an end to the Nazi's diplomatic attempts, from that point, the military invasion was scheduled and prepared. Skäpperöd (talk) 08:44, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

In Communist Poland Józef Beck was also a subject of jokes, on one picture he rode a goat, who bleated Beck, Beck. Funny those Poles, aren't they?Xx236 (talk) 08:21, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

No capital C?

I'm not sure where the above discussion is supposed to be going, but it occurs to me that "Corridor" oughtn't to be capitalized. Anyone for a move to Polish corridor?--Kotniski (talk) 16:53, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

In the article, I introduced a list of similar corridors (one of the last sections). Some have the c capitalized, others have not. I guess no general rule applies. Skäpperöd (talk) 08:44, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Check Google Print for which variant is more popular here.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:32, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it about time to continue at the article's talk page?

I linked the discussion here from the article's talk page already a while ago, and a divirging discussion evolved there already. I'd really prefer to have this all in one place and the proper place is the article's talk page, not a noticeboard. Skäpperöd (talk) 08:44, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2008

Please take note of this event. Voting ends in mid-December.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Darłowo

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dar%C5%82owo&diff=254788752&oldid=254785533 Mysterious for me changes, regarding the Potsdam conference.

The first lines in the History paragraph present radical German bias. Rügen doesn't confirm that Wizlaw IVth was a German duke.Xx236 (talk) 08:37, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I corrected the Wizlaw sentence. Wizlaw was of course a Danish prince and not a German duke. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:02, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

For the Potsdam sentence, I introduced the Belgard formulation Kotniski and I worked out as the most neutral earlier. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:06, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Bloody Sunday (1939), Bundesarchive

Nazi propaganda pictures have been recently included. It's a part of thousands of Nazi pictures from Bundesarchive. Nazi propaganda was very good. Xx236 (talk) 09:51, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps they can be kept, if clearly labeled as part of Nazi propaganda.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:29, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the source and context of the image description in German should be clarified, with some urgency. Of course it is a reliable source of the producers of the picture at the time and useful historical data. However it should be made crystal-clear that this is the case, and that the text is neither representative of modern scholarship, nor a text written by Wikipedia consensus, lest some extremely unfortunate misunderstandings occur. Knepflerle (talk) 17:59, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually, they're on to the case at commons.wm here and this template is being added to some items. As always, feel free to contribute to the discussions there. Knepflerle (talk) 18:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I am not seeing any relevant discussions in English. I've seen this template and it seems useful.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I'll try to explain my point. An influential media person has a conflict with Knepferle. Media cover the problem using pictures on which the media person looks good and Knepferle doesn't. 20 years later a journalist writes about the same story using the biased pictures. On the last page of the paper in small letter you can read The pictures may be biased.Xx236 (talk) 07:33, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Ukrainians in Second Polish Republic

We still lack a article on Ukrainians in Second Polish Republic-it is an interesting history, and should cover attempts to reconcile in Volhyn area by Polish authorities as well as pacification of Ukrainian villages by Polish police before the war as well as attempts to colonise Ukrainian territories by Polish settlers.--Molobo (talk) 01:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

There is History of Ukrainian minority in Poland, and osadnik.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:42, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Possible ban on using Polish cities information about their history ?

User Skäpperöd has started to remove information in regards to Polish topics from a town's page, claiming that official authorities are not reliable source of information. He additionally asked the reliable noticeboard if official authorities of Polish administration are to be used on Wikipedia as source of information. As the result of such decision could limit our sources and result in deletion of countless information about Polish history in several cities I am engaged the discussion, noting that official authorities of locations are notable enough that their stance should be presented regarding their locations. You are welcomed to express your opinion. I believe this is a important subject: [5] --Molobo (talk) 16:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Updated some info on Polish corridor but more work is needed

I made some work on Polish corridor but more is needed. Layout improvements, more info on usage by German propaganda, the intelligence and sabotage role of German minority organisations against Second Polish Republic Polish state and so on needs to be covered more in the article. Also correction changes in grammar, spelling would be appreciated--Molobo (talk) 18:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Piotrowskis - Tatar knezes

Please review the co-existence of Piotrowskis - Tatar knezes and Piotrowski. NVO (talk) 19:28, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Jan Pawel Pietrzak

Jan Pawel Pietrzak, a Polish-American Marine Corps Sergeant. Murdered together with his wife in October 2008. Interestingly enough, for some mysterious reasons, U.S. mainstream media wrote very little or nothing about him. Those interested are asked to help out with the article. Tymek (talk) 17:56, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

"Polish reactions to alleged complicity"

I would like to remove entirely the section "Polish reactions to alleged complicity" from "Extermination Camps" article which is about extermination camps and not about misleading term Polish camps used by some media. Please comment. Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 22:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the section could be renamed (e.g. Selection of sites for the camps) and altered to explain why the camps where located in Poland? e.g. Remove the first two paragraphs. Replace with a statement like “The Nazi Germans selected occupied Poland for a number of reasons”. Then remove everything after “The level of antisemitism in pre-war Poland had no influence on the German decision.” That way the information is not about the media problems, Polish resistance and Polish collaboration but the selection of location for the camps. Jniech (talk) 12:11, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

This would work.--Jacurek (talk) 16:51, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Done. Please revue. Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 19:16, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Personally I think it alright but see what other editors think. Jniech (talk) 10:34, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Kreis Bromberg

Almost all Kreis articles present Prussian POV. They don't inform about Polish population, frequently a majority. They don't inform about Nazi occupation. I have modified the lead, but there are tens such articles. I believe that names of cities and villages should be linked, when possible.Xx236 (talk) 11:29, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Nazi occupation happened a century later, so it should be clarified that this district existed in 19th century and was recreated in the 20th. I agree about the need for other improvements.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:44, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Category:Katyn Massacre

Dear All: I thought it would be a good idea to have a category to link all the Katyn Massacre articles. What I done is started Category:Katyn Massacre with two sub-categories Category:Katyn Massacre Memorials and Category:Katyn Massacre Victims. Hopefully I done it right ((any advice is welcome)). Assuming members here think it is a good idea, my plan is to complete these sections and start others e.g. perhaps one for Individuals connected to the Katyn Massacre such Zdzisław Peszkowski, Andrzej Wajda, Vasili Blokhin and Rudolf Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff. Anyway if you hate the idea I will removed the categories already created otherwise once indications of support here will work on expanding the material. Jniech (talk) 16:06, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, there is one on pl wiki. There should be a Category:Katyn massacre victims as well.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:13, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

This is a very good idea, and let me remind you of another freshly created WW2-related category, [6]. Tymek (talk) 18:53, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed--Jacurek (talk) 19:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

To Tymek: I have added Pawłokoma, Brzuska and World War II crimes in Poland to the Category:Massacres of Poles in Volhynia. Is it worth adding 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Galicia (1st Ukrainian) and Ukrainian Insurgent Army? Jniech (talk) 19:53, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it is a good idea, as the UPA was the main perpetrator of the genocide and the 14th Waffen SS took active part in some of killings in Eastern Galicia. Tymek (talk) 23:28, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

To Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus: You tagged Category:Katyn Massacre Victims for renaming which I support. My mistake. Should I correct the 13 articles already linked to it? The parent category Category:Katyn Massacre has 3 more articles. The other sub-category Category:Katyn Massacre memorials has another 3. I want to create at least one more sub-category with Individuals connected to the Katyn Massacre as one and maybe another called Katyn Murders. What do you think? Jniech (talk) 20:23, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Jniech: you don't have to retag the articles, a bot will do it soon, barring any unlikely opposes (see WP:CFD for details). I am not sure if the other categories are needed. Usually it helps to think: what similar categories I can base this one on.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 06:12, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

To Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus and all: Thanks for the help. Hopefully it won’t be too long unstill I stop making basic mistakes and having to ask questions. I was wondering if it was worth starting a list of all the victims of Katyn as a Wikipedia page. The idea is to list the thousands who were murdered with reference sources for each but are not famous enough for a page of their own. Do you think it worth the effort? Jniech (talk) 10:50, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

List and categories are somewhat overlapping. I am not opposed to such lists, but I am not a big fan of them either. Let's see what others think.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Need opinon on this

Talk:Jarosław_Kaczyński#Controversial_incidents. Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 21:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

As far as controversies go, Lech_Wałęsa#Alleged_cooperation_with_communist_security_service is also worth a look.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:15, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

We have to distinguish between importance of the information placed in the controversies section. With Kaczynski, there was some weird unenyclopedic info about him being gay, or that he sings terribly (sic!) Walesa's cooperation with security services has been described in several articles and books, by professional historians. This is worlds apart from statements that Kaczynski doesn't know how to sing. Tymek (talk) 19:49, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

• Imagine if somebody created a section "Controversial incidents involving Walesa" in the Walesa page and started quoting Walesa or what "others have said that Walesa said" or what Walesa did etc. There would be a lot things to quote, right? Would be that appropriate? I don't think so :) Why it is all right on Kaczynski's page then ? I'm aware that Polish electorate is deeply divided into people who either love Kaczynski or hate him but please take a "step back" and think about it...--Jacurek (talk) 23:25, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Invasion of Poland

Should this be a disambig? Currently it's a redirect to Invasion of Poland (1939).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:43, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Good catch. There have been several invasions of Poland, and right now, it looks like the 1939 was the only one. Tymek (talk) 23:58, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Repressions during First Partition of Poland

See Talk:First_Partition_of_Poland#Corwin_and_exile_of_senators.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 02:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Why is World War II atrocities in Poland directed to Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles not World War II crimes in Poland

On 25th November on the Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles discussion page I raised the question why the redirect was to that page rather than the World War II crimes in Poland. No-one has replied but reading the previous discussion my impression is that there were problems with World War II crimes in Poland which lead to merger suggestions. Recent changes to World War II crimes in Poland mean it now covers crimes by various parties (e.g. Germans, Ukrainians, Soviet Union, Poles). The World War II crimes in Poland needs more work which I am hoping to do over the Christmas break but suggest the redirect for World War II atrocities in Poland goes to World War II crimes in Poland. Any comments from the rest of you would be appreciated. Jniech (talk) 14:26, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

World War II atrocities in Poland should redirect to World War II crimes in Poland (simple). Neither article is high quality, and they need improvement, although I object to the merger of Nazi crimes against ethnic Poles and World War II crimes in Poland (subjects seem notabe and ditinct).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:01, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Liberation of General Government

Article on General Government in its infobox has dates for its beginning and ending, the latter is termed: liberation, 1945. Should we consider a more neutral term? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 03:20, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I would gladly second this motion providing that the new, more neutral term is supported by the recent Polish historiography, i.e. books published in sovereign Poland in the last decade and a half or so. Any ideas? --Poeticbent talk 19:42, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

In my experience it is sadly the word used. Some books do put single quotes around it e.g. Blank Pages chapter 5 is Soviet ‘Liberation’ Heralds Further Crimes and Norman Davies in Europe at War says official ‘Liberation’ was accompanied by civil war. If you have word in mind then I will see what books support it but I have doubts many English language books will support another word. Jniech (talk) 20:19, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Arthur R. Rachwald in his book In Search of Poland for example, uses the term Sovietization of Poland.[7] Conversely, we could use the term also for Sovietization of General Government. Here's what Rachwald means:

The Katowice Forum became an element in Soviet contingency planning, designed to create an outlet in Poland for criticism of the Polish communists. Should the Red Army invade, the political structure was ready to legitimize aggression and take over administrative functions. Moscow again applied a method used since World War II to take over smaller states. Preparing for the Sovietization of Poland in 1943, the Soviets had organized the so-called union of Polish patriots-the same technique used in 1968 before entering Czechoslovakia.

The term Sovietization of Poland is quite popular in Google,[8], used by Encyclopaedia Britannica, Collier's Encyclopedia and a plethora of Polish and American historians in relation to Polish modern history.

Meanwhile, Kevin Devlin, Radio Free Europe Research - Background Report 1982-1-19, [9] uses the phrase "military takeover in Poland" when referring to the imposition of martial law. Quote:

I believe that, to understand what is happening in Poland, it must be said that the revolution [there] was imported [from the outside]... and that the political system, of the monopoly of power by one party, was not created by the Poles, but was imposed on them.

The word 'takeover' is also used by Robert Pernetta, MA, in History of International Relations II.[10]
—I hope this helps. --Poeticbent talk 22:58, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

The problem we are having is how to describe the Soviet actions of defeating the Germans. I feel that the word liberation is more about removing the Germans than the aftermath which Sovietization of Poland would describe. Could we not simply change the word ‘Liberation 1945’ to something like ‘German occupation ended 1945’. Also the Invasion of Poland could be renamed ‘German occupation started September 1939’. I feel the 1st September is misleading as not all the general government fell on 1st day of the invasion. Jniech (talk) 23:41, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually is September accurate for the creation. The book Poland in the Second World War states "On 12th October there was another decree from Hitler: this established the office of governor general" and later states "The General Gouvernement came into existence in fact on 26 October". Jniech (talk) 05:41, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Kazimierz Deyna

Would it be correct to say that this football player was often known only as "Deyna"? I was trying to find him on Wikipedia but could not remember his first name. Deyna is a redirect to a fiction character in a book and there was no other link.

I look at stats.grok.se, and the Polish footballer is more popular; he gets 1942 views in November 2008 compared to 270 for the redirect. I think Deyna should redirect to the football player, and at the top of the page we should say "for the character, see..." with a link. But I want to know first if I am right about his name. Bedankt, Zuiver jo (talk) 18:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)