Talk:Via Rail

Crown corporations

VIA Rail is a not a true Crown Corporation in that it cannot raise funds on the money market, rather it is subject to the whims of the government of the day for its ongoing funding. This is a major reason for the failure of VIA to improve its lot.

True enough regarding how political control limits the company's "viability" (pun intended!), however the definition of a Crown corporation throughout Canada's history has been fairly broad. In the sense that any publicly owned (ie. government) company in Canada is a Crown corporation, then VIA Rail would meet that criteria. For many years prior to its recapitalization in the late 1970's and the Canadian railway industry's deregulation in the 1980's, CN was not allowed to raise funds either. Provincial Crown corporations like B.C. Rail and B.C. Ferries or N.B. Power were similarly limited at certain points in their existence. I could be wrong, as I have not read the VIA Rail Act in-depth but is there a specific provision which limits the company from seeking funds on the "money market" in the way you describe? I would also argue that there is likely no public transport company in the world which is financially successful in the limited way in which economists in the 20th/21st century measure this. Since there is no accounting taken for the numbers of vehicles taken off a nation's highways each day, or having to construct new roads to isolated communities served by VIA/Amtrak/etc., or the environmental benefits realized, etc. etc. etc. then VIA Rail, Amtrak, Eurorail, various ferries, etc. will never be financially solvent. Cheers, Plasma east 22:00, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The following section was added by User: Andrew Dunning and I have commented it out pending input from others due to several errors:

Officially, the move from the CP to CN line was to keep service to more remote communities on the CN line. However, this move was seen as somewhat more politically-motivated by some. Coincidentally, the CN route goes through more towns that voted Progressive Conservative. Harvey André, the Cabinet minister who represented Calgary in 1990, was fairly public about the fact that he did not care if he never saw a train again in his life. The CN line also went through Edmonton, the home of both Mulroney and Joe Clark.

No doubt politics played a heavy role in this 2nd round of VIA cuts, however I'm unsure as to what the actual political representation played throughout the Super Continental's route (historically, the Super was a CN transcontinental train, and The Canadian was a CP transcontinental train). In the 1990 cuts when VIA was reduced to a single transcontinental, they decided to keep the more-recognized Canadian brand, and use it on the CN line... why the CN line is the question, however some have suggested CN being a crown corp at the time, gave VIA a better deal on trackage fees, insurance costs, etc. etc. Politics could also have played a role, or perhaps the thinking was that VIA should be supporting the feds to provide service to the more remote northern prairie communities since the Trans-Canada Highway follows the southerly CP route and was already well-served by inter-city busses. The main reason I've commented out the above addition was the last line concerning Clark & Mulroney's ridings - Clark represented High River near Calgary, Alberta in the 1980s and Mulroney represented Manicouagan near Baie Comeau, Quebec. Harvey André... I have no idea - very likely though. Once this part gets edited/verified properly, it should appropriately be added to the story surrounding the 2nd round of cuts in 1990.Plasma east 16:57, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Joe Clark was born and raised in High River, but he represented Yellowhead, a large riding between Edmonton and Jasper, from 1979 to 1993. Mulroney never lived in Alberta, nor was he ever an Alberta MP.--Indefatigable 17:30, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Locomotive roster

The roster is a dog's breakfast of past and present with nothing to distinguish between. Use of "streamline" to describe ex CPR Budd built stainless steel equipment is a questionable term. This whole section needs some serious work.

R.L.Kennedy 21:33, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, this is definitely a mess. Before I put some time in cleaning it up, would anyone like to weigh in as to whether they'd like to see this sort of information in this article? For Canadian National Railway and Canadian Pacific Railway we've resisted having the roster in the article, but VIA Rail might be different because (a) its locomotive count is in the dozens, not the thousands and (b) it's a bit easier to compile a complete roster since VIA's under 30 years old. I'm kind of undecided about the locomotive roster, although I feel that the passenger car roster isn't significant/useful enough for inclusion in this article. JYolkowski // talk 01:53, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I hadn't checked in here in a while as I was just browsing through to add a railroad infobox, something which I'll do shortly. I'm in total agreement on trying to clean things up - I like how the Amtrak article is organized, perhaps it could be adopted as a template? The way I originally organized the information (ie. by "cuts") is probably a tad bit negative, although unfortunately they do seem to point out the historic timeline of events for VIA. Perhaps a separate article could be created for the roster information, grouped under a new category called VIA Rail or just VIA?Plasma east 14:07, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Categories

I noticed that several categories have been added to the article, showing "Transportation in <province name>"... I would have thought having VIA under "Railway companies of Canada", which itself is duplicated under "Transportation in Canada" and "Transportation companies of Canada", would have sufficed rather than placing VIA under every province? Also, this category listing isn't entirely accurate as it shows PEI... PEI and NL are included under VIA's national timetable, but only through bus and bus/ferry connections. No passenger trains have ever operated in those provinces under VIA, and the last time CN operated passenger trains in PEI and NL was 1968 and 1988 respectively.Plasma east 14:15, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think that since the "Category:[province] Railways" is a subcategory of "Category:Transportation in [province]", it probably makes sense to categorize it in "Category:[province] Railways" (removing PE and NL of course) and remove the existing categories. JYolkowski // talk 21:49, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

VIA Rail route map

Someday, when one of us wikipedian get time, we should have a map of the route this carrier serve, something similar to what CN page carries.

Maps are really handy on this kind of articles due to their high information density, saving minutes parsing over the entire article. Just a suggestion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wk muriithi (talk • contribs)

I already have a schematic map of the Windsor-Québec corridor - is that the sort of thing you mean, or are you thinking of a geographically-accurate map showing only major cities? David Arthur 16:37, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Something like Image:CanadianPacificRailwayNetworkMap.png or Image:CanadianNationalRailwayNetworkMap.png would be perfect. -- Beland 02:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I just created a network map for VIA rail. I am the creator of the maps mentioned by Beland above so I made it along the similar style. I have the raw map in GIMP format so it is easy to change. Please let me know of any changes you think that should be made, comments or suggestions. The location of the track is approximate and obviously I had to be selective on which stations/cities appeared on the map. Did I miss any routes or add routes that no longer exist? Al guy 05:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice addition. The only route that I see missing is the Sudbury - White River one. Also, it looks like you'd probably have room to list a few more end-point cities like Jonquière and Courtenay. Cas510 14:59, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions. I added the missing route and some more labels. Al guy 01:49, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Cost of sleepers

I just reverted a new paragraph which seemed to awkwardly point out that sleepers are expensive ($3000+) but still sell out early. I couldn't find a nice NPOV way to change this, and looking at VIA's web site, it looks like the most expensive sleeper, Toronto to Vancouver for next July is $1958. I reverted using pop-ups, but I wish I had reverted and made this comment in the edit summary instead. Cas510 23:14, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where you got your information, but I just did a search from Toronto-Vancouver, and came up with a price of $4150.96 for a double sleeper return fare, so I am reinstating my entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.186.226 (talk)

The double sleeper is for two people. VIA charges extra for a single person to occupy the space for two people. The fare for a single person in a single bedroom is $1958. I'm afraid I'm going to have to revert back. Cas510 15:01, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

-> My fare WAS based on TWO people for a DOUBLE bedroom, round-trip from Toronto-Vancouver. Quit playing games and misquoting me. I'm reinstating my opinion.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.186.226 (talk)

That's the problem though. Wikipedia isn't the place for your opinion. If you think Via is too expensive, then Wikipedia isn't the place to lodge that complaint. The typical way to compare fares for different services would be to compare one-way travel for one person before taxes, which would be $1958. I don't mind you adding some words to the effect that Silver & Blue class costs a certain amount of money, but that information belongs in the Silver & Blue section, not the Comfort Sleeper section, it should be phrased in a Neutral Point-Of-View way, and it should not refer to the discussion page. We should, in fact, be using this discussion page to come up with the wording of this section. Cas510 18:51, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'm sorry if I came off a little rude, but I just thought that I would advise anyone travelling Via to be aware of their relatively high prices on the Canadian. I can fly to Australia 1st class for that price! Nonetheless, you also have to remember that the trip is only three days and three nights-which I still find rather costly. The bedrooms are nothing special. Just two beds, two chairs and small table, and a private toilet. Not worth the $3000+ in my opinon, but I digress. My apologies.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.186.226 (talk)

Thanks for your reply. I agree with your opinion that it is expensive, but we need to keep opinion out of Wikipedia. I don't have time right now, but I'll take a crack later today at adjusting the wording of this to make it Neutral Point-of-View and moving it to the Silver & Blue section. Cas510 19:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank-You.  :) Please forgive my curt reply to you earlier.

Hi speed service

How fast do the trains run between montreal and toronto? Is it considered high speed? Are there plans to add new high speed service?

The locomotives can reach a maximum speed of 175 km/h, and the lines limit them to still lower speeds. There was a proposal for ‘high-speed’ service using Bombardier’s JetTrain, but it was never funded; in any case, it would have still been using the same lines, like the Acela Express across the border, rather than a purpose-built high-speed line as in France or Germany, and the fastest it would have reached at any point is 240 km/h. David Arthur 21:46, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The budget speech by the Finance Minister on 2009 January 27th talked about adding a third track in places to reduce the express trip between Montreal and Toronto by 30 minutes. It is currently scheduled for 4 hours 33 minutes. In the past, Via often had an express trip scheduled for 3 hours 59 minutes (1973 for Turbo Train) so the improvement is basically an attempt to get back to the scheduled times of 30 years ago.

Long-winded History section

The history section is long-overdue for a major rewrite. The focus on service cuts is excessive, I believe. At a bare minimum this should be moved to an different article. The entire thing needs a complete rewrite in my opinion. Other thoughts? Nfitz 18:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I find the information about the number of trains confusing. The article starts off by mentioning that there are 480 trains but does not mention the measurement period (weekly?). Later the article mentions that when VIA took over from CN and CP it ran more than 150 trains per week. Since VIA runs fewer trains now the two numbers appear confusing.

It might be helpful if the historical section included information about the absolute decline in passenger levels (today's level of 4 million per year is very low compared to historical figures). Passenger miles would be a good measurement to include. These could show the relative importance of rail passenger travel in Canada compared to that in other countries.

POV concerns

The extensive history section is rife with much political speculation that borders on libel (twice claiming that politicians spitefully cut certain routes because they serviced their opponents' ridings), and finally asserting that the new Renaissance trains are failure-prone without any citation. While these claims may be true (VIA has indeed seen service cutbacks), the reasons are given without link or evidence to back it up.

There is a lack of NPOV; the general tone paints a picture of relentless and malicious political persecution, going so far as calling VIA a "political football". - quanta 02:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Some of the remarks are factual; but they need citing. This article has clear POV problems (and I'm a rail fan myself). --Orange Mike | Talk 18:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This has to be one of the longest-lasting most-horrible Wikipedia pages I've seen. The endless orgy of information about cutbacks, and of equipment, much of which it isn't clear if still runs (some sent to the junk yard a quarter-century ago) — no one has made any comment here about these issues, or the POV concerns. As far as I can tell, someone needs to take a knife to entire article. Is there anyone who actually objects - or cares? Nfitz (talk) 05:29, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

In case your question (above) was not rhetorical, I care. That is to say, I agree that the article should be edited by someone with the requisite knowledge, but I do feel that the subject is worthy of such an effort.CanRuby (talk) 18:18, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I would go as far to say this page needs a criticism section against vias practices to make it fair. I recently had a ticket stolen ( just the ticket portion and not the reciept) I was forced to buy a new ticket, same reservation number, same seat and the cost for via rail to investigate the issue and issue me a refund was 40 dollars charged to me, which was the price of the ticket. Its a policy that isnt right by the carriers. Not to make this sound like a blog, but many customers have had very negative experiences with via rail services in terms of ticket refunds, late trains no refunds, etc that seemingly arent mentioned as much as you think in the article, it reads as a poor me corportation article where people are meant to feel sorry for the government cut backs the corporation has had.Ottawa4ever (talk) 20:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Ottawa4ever on the question of POV concerns - if VIA's customer service, and over all experience is of a certain character, indicating that online shouldn't be an issue. It is, as wikipedia aims to be, factual. A POV concern would come out of going overboard in presentation of those facts. If VIA's ticket refund system can catch people 'off guard' or 'un-awares' that that's the truth - it's merely stating VIA policy. Equally, if traveling on VIA is is remarkable or it isn't, presenting both sides of factual observations is the key to objectivity. Doingmorestuffonline (talk) 03:43, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Travel on VIA

I have been traveling on via for some time now through 'The Corridor'. What do other editors think of a new section within the article on 'Traveling on VIA'? Possibly it could compare VIA's service to other train systems (like the European one, or Japan / China) - the types of travel 'experiences' customers could expect on its different classes of service.

I will work on a section - if others are interested could they please post ideas / comments here in the discussion side. Perhaps, as others have noted, this might be an opportunity for a major rewrite - addressing some POV concerns as well.

I'll post my brief section to see if it sparks any debate. Doingmorestuffonline (talk) 03:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

The section has several sentences that would need a rewrite to conform with NPOV standards. Here are some examples: "the 68 & 69 trains can be tedious", "While travel on VIA can be very pleasant", "(...) traveling on VIA trains something of an odd experience". Rather than add a tag to this newly created section, I thought I'd give my two cents on this here. AirOdyssey (Talk) 03:57, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I've corrected those POV concerns as much as possible, but with train travel experience elsewhere I do believe that VIA's boarding procedures are quite orchestrated affairs that are more similar to plane travel than train travel elsewhere in the world. In talking with fellow travelers this appears to be a consensus, especially when waiting in line with tourists - they often seem quite confused as to what is going on - it has to be explained to them since, especially the Europeans, are used to simply boarding trains at their leisure once they're on the platform.142.157.87.54 (talk) 19:31, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

This entire section is strictly POV. I suppose it is "tedious" to be on a train that stops at insignificant places like Belleville - unless you happen live there. To suggest that Europeans, esp. Spanish and British tourists, would be confused about security concerns related to rail travel is utterly ridiculous. Idesofmontreal (talk) 01:12, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually it's a question of travel experience and so yes, ultimately it is POV, you're correct - however, describing the colours used on Via's coaches is also POV - so the arugment is potentially an ad infinitum problem. The aims of this section are to illustrate to readers the types of issues involved in Via travel.

In describing Via's approach to travel experience and organization it is necessary to compare it to other train systems. In many other parts of the world there are different classes of trains depending upon the destination. I thoroughly support Via stopping at what you call 'insignificant' places like Belleville - however, it should take into account expediency for other customers as well. Other train systems resolve this type of problem by having 'local' and 'express' services - even Greyhound and GO Transit do it with their buses. So why not Via? For European travellers especially used to InterCityExpress or ICE trains, the idea that there would even BE a stop in between Montreal and Toronto, for instance, is confusing because places like Belleville do not form part of the ICE system.

If you've travelled Via with people used to other systems you can actually see the confusion on their faces - they are used to platform boarding, used to express trains, and used to rush seating. This section attempts to illustrate the difference Via has with other major train systems around the world, thereby fulfilling Wikipedia's mandate of presenting useful concise information. For such customers, Via's procedures might appear tedious because they are, in comparison to systems like the ICE, overly orchestrated and complex.

Line-ups at Via stations like Toronto and Montreal have absolutely no security implications at all - in case this is your main point. If their purpose WAS security, the lines would have screening. The idea that by describing Via's boarding procedure as time consuming is an attack on Via's security policy and initiatives is a bit confounding since if you'd every been through one of those line-ups, you'd know first hand it has nothing to do about security checks at all.Doingmorestuffonline (talk) 16:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)