Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2009 March 3: Difference between revisions

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3 March 2009

Jeff Parker (guitarist) (closed)

Fred M. Levin

Deletion not justified based on WP:PROF, discussion was tainted by spite and hostility Mwalla (talk) 22:23, 3 March 2009 (UTC)mwalla[reply]

Endorse closure as delete, it seems to me a reasonable read of the consensus there. It simply doesn't look like there are sufficient sources to make a verifiable article, and any arguments that he passes the WP:PROF criteria seem to be borderline and disputed. Additionally, I have to say that most of the "spite and hostility" in the AfD seemed to be coming from you; considering the canvassing and unwarranted accusations of hounding/stalking. I cannot see much evidence that the close was incorrect or that anything underhanded was going on among those arguing to delete it. ~ mazca ^t|c 23:02, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

- I was accused of canvassing, but that does not mean that I did canvas. If you say that it is borderline for WP:PROF, why would you not err on the side of keeping the page?Mwalla (talk) 23:13, 3 March 2009 (UTC)mwalla[reply]
  - I have no idea if it was borderline for WP:PROF, I did not see the article. All I am gauging here is the statements made by people, and whether or not it meets WP:PROF seems disputed. ~ mazca ^t|c 23:17, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse – I certainly see evidence of canvassing, but no evidence of spite and hostility (from anyone else but the article's creator; however, that may be expected as admins have the prerogative to know such information when deciding there is a rough consensus to delete) that would have altered the outcome of the deletion discussion. The reasons for deletion seem to be more guideline and policy-based and effectively outweighed the reasons for keeping. MuZemike 23:38, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse seems that the delete contingent had the better arguments - the primary notability arguments hinged on how many publications this PROF had at google scholar, which may be interesting, but is hardly a proxy for reliable third party sources that tell us about the PROF - his biography, not the card catalog index for him. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:45, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As the instructions on the deletion review page indicate, many issues can be resolved by asking the deleting/closing administrator for an explanation and/or to reconsider his/her decision. While not strictly mandatory, this should normally be done first. Did you try, and if not, was there some special reason? Stifle (talk) 09:04, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I did try to contact the closing admin about the canvassing allegation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hersfold/t but I did not get a reply. I will try again. Please allow me to address some points:
1. The article was deleted the first time because of a copyright infirngement. This was accurate as I copied some biographical information from the subject's amazon page. The deleting admin suggested that the page could be recreated as long as there was no copyright violation.
2. I wanted the deletion discussion to focus on the article, so I tried not to bring up allegations of spite. But the initial editor who broght the page up for deletion due to the copyright violation has consistently reverted my edits in the past and has brought me up for other allegations, such as vandalism.
3. It is unforunate that you can no longer see the page. Since it was only in existence for a couple of weeks, it did not have much of a chance to improve from other editors. What was called canvasing, was my attempt to get other interested parties to contribute to the page or suggest how I could improve it. I only contacted about 5 people and did not try to bias them.
4. I feel strongly the Fred Levin's page was just as usefull as any other page on psychotherapits. I examined other pages in the category psychotherapists.
Perhaps he should be judged in that light rather than under the heading of an acedemic. Mwalla (talk) 13:53, 4 March 2009 (UTC)mwalla[reply]
I see. Endorse deletion as a valid reading of the community consensus. Stifle (talk) 16:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Closing admin comment Mwalla, I'm sorry, I only just noticed the message you'd left me the other day. I'm not as active as I once was due to college work, and at times when I receive several messages at once I tend to miss replying to some. Anyway, when reviewing the AfD, there was not only a strong majority in favor of deletion, but also a strong consensus in that direction. Those comments that were in favor of keeping the article were well countered; while the subject does have a fair number of hits on Google Scholar, he is not cited often, nor is there a considerable amount of work about him. The issue of the canvassing also was concerning; Mwalla, I'm not sure how you can say you didn't think you were canvassing after the fact when you stated no less than twice within the AfD that you were; also, your contributions clearly show that you left several uninvolved editors requests to opine at the AfD. You made no requests that I can find to make improvements to the article itself. This is what we call canvassing. I would also echo Mazca's comment that the hostility in this debate was coming from Mwalla, not from the other editors. I would further note that no attempt was made to contact me specifically relating to the deletion of the article until after this DRV had begun. That said, I feel that the consensus here was more than strong enough to support the deletion of the article. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 18:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hersfold, your response above is mainly about me and not about the article. If you read the definition of canvassing, I am sure you will agree that I did not canvass. I did joke about canvassing in the page, but even you admitted that that was sarcasm. In terms of the worth of a page, why not just rely entirely on google scholar?Mwalla (talk) 20:10, 4 March 2009 (UTC)mwalla[reply]

Illegal number

Improper closing. There was no consensus on a redirect,but Yandman, however, then updated the page saying closed as redirect to Digital AACS encryption key controversy). Oddly, the Digital AACS encryption key controversy does not exist. I do not believe that the proper AFD procedure was followed, or somehow, human error came into play. Smallman12q (talk) 20:48, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have created a redirect for Digital AACS encryption key controversy, but I still believe that the Afd was not handled properly.Smallman12q (talk) 20:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - There have been two AfDs for this - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Illegal number back in 2007 which was indeed closed as keep by Ryan Postlethwaite, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Illegal number (2nd nomination) closed today as redirect by Yandman. I haven't looked at the detail of either close as yet, but your statement seems to imply that someone changed the result of an AfD when no such thing seems to have happened. Could you clarify? ~ mazca ^t|c 20:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I seem to have made a mistake, apparrently Yandman placed the wrong AFD discussion link on the Talk:Illegal number page. However, I still disagree with his redirect closure as no consensus was reached for a redirect.Smallman12q (talk) 23:30, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I hate to say it, but Yandman's close is very much against the community opinions put forward in the most recent AFD; I saw one suggestion for a merge, and the rest were either "keep" or "delete" opinions; his argument that the "keep" opinions didn't address the (voluminous, leaning towards tl;dr territory) nomination doesn't address that most of them pointed out the article was sourced properly and well written. There was definitely not any consensus for a redirect - matter of fact, I don't see a consensus there at all. Overturn and, optionally, reopen for further discussion to try and find a consensus. Tony Fox (arf!) 21:26, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As the instructions on the deletion review page indicate, many issues can be resolved by asking the deleting/closing administrator for an explanation and/or to reconsider his/her decision. While not strictly mandatory, this should normally be done first. Did you try, and if not, was there some special reason? Stifle (talk) 21:35, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No I did not. I forgot. 0.o. I have notified him of this DRV now though. (My apologies on not first asking the closing admin.)Smallman12q (talk) 22:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough; we all make mistakes. Overturn to no consensus, per S Marshall's reasoning. Whether to merge, redirect, or otherwise can be hashed out on the article talk page. Stifle (talk) 09:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
IMHO, notification of the closer should be a requirement here, but it isn't. That said, I'll await comments from the closing admin to further elucidate his/her rationale, but from the bare record it seems as if an overturn may well be warranted. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:36, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
overturn Many additional sources were listed in the AfD. This topic thus meets the primary notability criterion. That notability claim was in no way rebutted. (Also incidentally, this is mentioned in a number of dead tree compilations as well such as some of Paulo Ribenboim's books. JoshuaZ (talk) 00:41, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

- I feel need to point out this blatant falsehood: "Many additional sources were listed in the AFD." Indeed, I imagine a reason for the closing decision was that I asked for these supposedly "many additional sources" but nobody listed them. By the way, I'm well familiar with Ribenboim's books, and they do not support the topic as you imagine. People in discussion get confused over patenting of numbers and then confuse that with "illegal numbers" or "illegal primes". That's one reason for the long nom: the apparent willingness of people to confuse themselves on the merits of the topic based on vague recollections of "similar" or irrelevant topics and references. This kind of speculation is dear to a certain kind of geek that edits Wikipedia, reads Slashdot, etc....but it is not notable according to Wikipedia standards. --C S (talk) 07:00, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No action (which is not quite the same as endorse closure). Rationales: (1) A "redirect" is a de facto keep. The redirect page is not protected, and any user could change its content per WP:BRD. Discussion could then be taken to the article's talk page, so the DRV seems unnecessary to me. (2) I don't feel "overturn to keep" is appropriate or that anything useful would be gained from "relist", but I don't feel able to "endorse closure" because I think the closer disregarded the consensus.--S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 01:48, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Closer's comments. I am aware that a simple head count would have given a decision to keep, but if you read carefully through the whole discussion, a pattern emerges. The vast majority of keep !votes were, well, votes. I don't think it would have been fair to close as no-consensus just because of a flood of rationales such as: "Keep. Nomination is WP:TLDR", "Strong Keep. What an interesting topic. The subject is encyclopedic", "Keep for same reasons others mentioned", "Strong Keep. The arguments for deletion are very complex. If it takes an essay to explain them then they can't be very sound".
Yes, I know that some editors try to game the system by spamming replies to every oppose !vote in order to make it look like they're winning the debate, but it would hardly be fair to put CS in this category.
Only two editors (in my opinion, Colonel Warden and JulesH) took the time to explain their position and discuss the issue. In both cases, CS gave constructive, rational, replies, that weren't rebutted. In the former case, the editor even went on to agree (in part) with the nominator, and proposed a merge. This is what I wanted to achieve with a redirect: the content isn't burnt, it can always be recreated if the Harvard Law Review writes something on "illegal numbers", and in the mean time, any useful content can easily be merged into other articles without difficulty.
As a (tongue in cheek) recap: I believe the "deletes" trumped the debate by having more coherent arguments and taking the time to discuss them, but then again they were in numerical inferiority, so I decided to go half way and follow the editors asking for merge/redirects. If it can make people feel better, I'm more than willing to modify the page so it says "merge/redirect" instead of redirect (there's so little content that a "classic" merge would have been superfluous). yandman 08:43, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and possible Merge with Illegal prime. Citations and arugments presented at this articles AfD clearly point to a no consensus not redirect. There are enough non trivial sources showing this is not original research. I revert the redirect until consensus has been reached at DRV. Valoem ^talk 19:22, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

African Americans in Davenport, Iowa

The Administrator mbisanz did not, in my opinion, consider the compromises put forth by more than one participant in the deletion discussion page. Personally, I would be more comfortable with someone other than this administrator making the decision. Having reviewed his contributions -- one of which is an advertising blurb for a bowling alley -- I don't think he is the person to decide notability. That was a central argument in the deletion discussion. Brrryce (talk) 19:18, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed malformed listing. Stifle (talk) 20:13, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion. The number of arguments for and against deletion was roughly equal, and in such cases the admin closing the discussion should look to see whether significantly more of the arguments on one side of the debate than those on the other were based in policy. In this case, the arguments for deletion cited the policy Wikipedia:No original research, and none of the arguments to keep successfully refuted that point. Finally, ad hominem attacks against administrators or requests to recall admins who make one decision you don't agree with rarely get you anywhere. Stifle (talk) 20:18, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Requesting recall for one insignificant deletion? You have got to be kidding me! MuZemike 23:44, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - I agree, but Brrryce attempted it. Stifle (talk) 09:07, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion. The grounds of appeal appear to be alleged bias of the closer. I have had several dealings with this closer and while we often disagree on things, nothing - nothing - seems to evidence bias. Accusations are cheap and easily made, but exceptional claims require exceptional evidence to back them up and this editor has fallen way short. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 23:42, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion. Closer was (correctly) influenced by WP:BURDEN which I think has considerable force.--S Marshall ^Talk/_Cont 02:00, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn and relist. I am expressly not questioning the closing admin's good faith or competence, and I wish the requester had not raised such issues. However, the discussion was a close enough call that this could have been a "no consensus", and the article did have some legitimate sources, at least by the time it was deleted. I think it would be appropriate to give the article another chance. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:45, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn Apart from a few links to unreferenced Wikipedia articles, the references appear to be solid and no one made it clear exactly how WP:OR or WP:SYNTH applied. For it to be synthesis it has to promote a point otherwise we can delete all our articles since they're a combined work from different sources which some people take synthesis to mean. Also, the 90000 non-notables argument is faulty. Just because the majority of African Americans in the town are not notable doesn't mean there aren't any notable individuals or that the group as a whole isn't notable. This was clearly a misapplication of policy. - Mgm|^(talk) 12:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn - while I am confident MBisanz was just being sloppy, the article very clearly cites reliable sources. Applying "weight of argument" when closing a discussion, one should more or less toss out those arguments that rely on demonstratably false assertions. WilyD 14:45, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Welcomeunclesam

At the least, this is no consensus; if vote counting (yes, I know, evil, but for discussion...) there were 5 keeps to 3 opposes. I don't think that is a consensus to delete. —Ed 17 ^{(Talk / Contribs)} 03:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC) [reply]

Endorse - I feel that JPG-GR made the correct call here. One of those keep votes does not even provide a rationale and so can be summarily dismissed. After looking at the discussion, it is clear that no one could respond to Black Falcon's argument of "What if it were a Hamas recruitment picture?" Perhaps this could be modified for something for WP:USA though. NuclearWarfare _(Talk) 03:34, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This template was aimed at anons in particular which is not exactly the best group to recruit into a project. The image still survives, so if the project wants to make a template aimed at the general public who show interest in their project, it's fine with me. - Mgm|^(talk) 12:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse as deleting admin None of the arguments for "keep" are convincing. And, as NW said, Black Falcon's Hamas argument was damning. JPG-GR (talk) 03:49, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Relist - Yes, I know that the keep !votes were unconvincing to some or most, but there is still the issue of consensus, which, at least from my point of view, was not reached. For the sake of an uncontroversial deletion, let's just relist it so that we can reach consensus.--Res 2216 firestar 04:35, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Re-close. Out of respect to the participants, and to help the casual and future observers, close again with a decent rationale, explaining why the keep votes are to be discounted. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse per WP:CSB. Stifle (talk) 09:43, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse though the template was not intended as an expression of American militarism, the image certainly was, and its original significance is still widely known. Correct decision, but needs to be replaced. DGG (talk) 14:11, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse closure as delete, though I do agree with SmokeyJoe that a closing statement should have been provided. This does, on first glance, look like a close-run discussion due to the large number of keep votes; but the fact is not a single compelling or policy-based argument was provided to support keeping this template, and several very good reasons to delete it were. Hence, the outcome definitely looks to me like the correct one, but as with any discussion that could be interpreted as a different outcome I think it would have been best to elaborate on the reasons behind the close. ~ mazca ^t|c 14:23, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Endorse only because I probably would have leaned towards "no consensus" myself. However, the arguments to delete the template were highly convincing, and the arguments to keep were, in order: valid argument, WP:JUSTAVOTE, WP:ILIKEIT, WP:USEFUL/too much work, and WP:NOHARM. Four of the arguments were invalid per WP:ATA, and the one remaining was well contested by the delete arguments. It's a valid closure. Add a rationale if you really care, but I think a link to this discussion would serve as sufficient explanation. Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 18:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 40: / Line 40: @@
 *::I see. '''Endorse deletion''' as a valid reading of the community consensus. [[User:Stifle|Stifle]] ([[User talk:Stifle/wizard|talk]]) 16:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 *'''Closing admin comment''' Mwalla, I'm sorry, I only just noticed the message you'd left me the other day. I'm not as active as I once was due to college work, and at times when I receive several messages at once I tend to miss replying to some. Anyway, when reviewing the AfD, there was not only a strong majority in favor of deletion, but also a strong consensus in that direction. Those comments that were in favor of keeping the article were well countered; while the subject does have a fair number of hits on Google Scholar, he is not cited often, nor is there a considerable amount of work about him. The issue of the canvassing also was concerning; Mwalla, I'm not sure how you can say you didn't think you were canvassing after the fact when you stated no less than twice within the AfD that you were; also, your {{plainlinks|URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?limit=50&title=Special:Contributions&contribs=user&target=Mwalla&namespace=3|NAME=contributions}} clearly show that you left several uninvolved editors requests to opine at the AfD. You made no requests that I can find to make improvements to the article itself. This is what we call [[WP:CANVASS|canvassing]]. I would also echo Mazca's comment that the hostility in this debate was coming from Mwalla, not from the other editors. I would further note that no attempt was made to contact me specifically relating to the deletion of the article until after this DRV had begun. That said, I feel that the consensus here was more than strong enough to support the deletion of the article. [[User:Hersfold|'''''<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers</em><em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold</em>''''']] <sup>([[User:Hersfold/t|t]]/[[User:Hersfold/a|a]]/[[Special:Contributions/Hersfold|c]])</sup> 18:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
+Hersfold, your response above is mainly about me and not about the article.  If you read the definition of canvassing, I am sure you will agree that I did not canvass.  I did joke about canvassing in the page, but even you admitted that that was sarcasm.  In terms of the worth of a page, why not just rely entirely on google scholar?[[User:Mwalla|Mwalla]] ([[User talk:Mwalla|talk]]) 20:10, 4 March 2009 (UTC)mwalla
 ====[[:Illegal number]]====