Talk:Kosovo

A genuine zero-tolerance policy for hatemongering is needed on this article and to block certain users, plus a new focus on information outside of the subject of conflict and war in Kosovo.

As neither an Albanian or a Serb, I have noticed for some time that this article and the discussion page has become utilized by POV-pushing which is deliberately attempting to cast negative villainized views of Albanians or Serbs, or to push beliefs that Kosovo is either part of Serbia or that it has been legitimized as an independent country. I have seen people on this article accuse each other of being "pro-Serb" or "pro-Albanian" and starting vicious arguments. This is hatemongering and baiting people to start arguments, Wikipedia administrators should take an even stronger stand against this hatemongering, for instance the practice of people assuming bad faith (which is banned on Wikipedia) and are accusing each other of being "pro-Serb" or "pro-Albanian" should be stopped entirely, users who continue do this or accuse an entire group of people like "Albanians" or "Serbs" as a whole of committing atrocities or crimes should be banned from Wikipedia. It is understandable to say that certain groups from these nations did crimes, but accusations against an entire nation or ethnic group only serve to cause conflict on the discussion page and make the discussion environment on this article worse for editors who are genuinely commmitted to promoting a neutral and balanced article. If someone has a problem with the content of the article, criticize the content, but NOT THE NATIONALITY OF THE USER or supposed biases by a user towards a nationality. Secondly, Wikipedia administrators should be more strict in being deletionist in regards to controversial material being put on this page to villainize Albanians or Serbs, as I have seen these attempts repeatedly. This does not mean that information on wars or atrocities by these groups towards each other should be ignored in parts of the article regarding conflict, but such material must be backed up by multiple, reliable sources (i.e. DON'T rely on website material that could be made by anyone with unverifiable information, rely on multiple books or articles made by scholars on the subjects). Lastly, editors should write more about other material aside from the history of conflict and war in the region, such as significant historical achievements in Kosovo - be it cultural, scientific, technological, etc. The section on conflict and war in Kosovo should be isolated to one specific section in the article, while other sections can focus on other material without getting entangled into the controversial aspects of conflict and war in Kosovo.--R-41 (talk) 18:15, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Kosovo, might i inform you, as you prove yourself to be ignorant, is a very important historical part of SERBIA-the albainians HAVE NO right whatsoever to it. I mean, come on, the first serbian school was built there, among other things! As you have pointed out that you are neither albanian our serbian, you really cant imagine how much historical value Kosovo has for me and my fellow serbs. Especially how much it pains us to have something which is a part of us wrenched away from us. Because the first time that happened we did nothing-nikola tesla who was legally a serbian by birth, his notes were lawfully ours(we would have placed them in our national museum. Instead, America decided suddenly, that THEY deserve his notes, which they end up using to create war weapons. Definatly NOT fair. I advise you NOT to make any further comments like this, to avoid being attacked by serbs who think you shouldn't say a thing when you have no idea what your taking about. Let us take care of our affairs, you take care of yours.75.155.170.198 (talk) 01:20, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

It's already under an Arbcom probation as advertised on top of the page. Abusers need simply to be reported to an admin with evidence of disruptive behavior and hatemongering. Húsönd 19:03, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

User names like "Serbian Defense Forces" also aren't exactly conductive to a peaceful atmosphere of npov. I recognize Serbian Defense Forces (talk · contribs) as an intelligent user who is honest about being partisan, but I would seriously recommend a username change if he wants to be taken at all seriously. And yes, we should also clamp down more decidedly on WP:TALK violations clearly intending to just fuel the fire. There is no age limitation for editing Wikipedia, but we can ask editors to edit as if they were grown-ups. And we can ban those who do not comply. I am willing to slap blocks on any account behaving disruptively, just drop me a note. That said, I do think the article has made good progress and is reasonably stable at this point. This is a great achievement for a topic as badly disupted as this one, so, well done everybody. --dab (𒁳) 13:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate your concern on this matter, but I think that there should be no sympathy for anyone who is deliberatly pushing biases whether or not they are honest in openly declaring those biases. If anything, if they are attempting to show good will by admitting their biases, they must also be willing to accept that some of their views might be wrong. I have been proven wrong by other users on many occasions, but instead of holding the other person in contempt, I learn from my errors and am willing to change my views if the evidence against my views is overwhelming. Other users must do this. As for this article right now, due to controversial topics within it I suggest that it be put through rigorous deletionist measures to get rid of poor sources (i.e. websites not associated with scholarly sources or which have declared or apparent biases like promoting Kosovo independence or websites promoting Kosovo as a Serbian province). I am going to make a start with this, but I do not have the time to constantly do this, so I urge you User dab to help out by trying to get the support of some administrators for them to pay closer attention to any new content that is added to this article - if such material is non-scholarly and dubious it should be scrapped as that is the way that professional people make scholarly work.--R-41 (talk) 22:04, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

As a footnote, Kosovo is legally a part of Serbia. Just check the UN Resolution 1244 and it states that it is a UN administered province of Serbia. Legally Kosovo is not a country. I think it should be mutually agreed that it is a United Nations administered province of Serbia. -rmaslic

What gives the UN the right to decide that?76.105.233.104 (talk) 03:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I have watched a few cases of the kind of uncooperative/disruptive editing that we are aiming to reduce. The problem I think is that too often sane editors assume that other editors are also sane and therefore capable of detached observation and reason. I think that maybe 5-10% of disruptive editors are capable of rational thought when it comes to topics that are personally sensitive to them regarding cultural issues. Perhaps if we could have a team of verified psychologists on wikipedia, we could screen for those not capable of rational thought and ban them from editing. The evaluations could be done on the basis of their comments at talk pages and the nature of their article editing. The people who are disruptive and frequently irrational should not hinder the progress of these kinds of projects. Its only a suggestion of how to enforce what you have described. Cheers. 70.171.22.172 (talk) 10:48, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Very admirable sentiment R-41. Sadly, most of those doing the disruption I think are personally involved, being Serb or Albania themselves. It's hard to get those disrupting to behave like adults. I guess though if the Wikipedia community just keeps it's eye out we can report these people and make sure they don't alter the article in a negative way Lemniwinks (talk) 04:39, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate the supportive statements above. Thank you. My argument is that it seems like that "pro Serbian" side is being suppressed. For example, this usually doesn't stay too long in the article. Specifically, sources statements like "...Kosovo which is the main transit point for all drugs" seem to disappear instantly. Likewise, this statement wont stay too long in the article "over 200,000 Serbs have been ethnically cleansed by the Albanian authorities". Seriously, even this article talks about how people who say anything negative about Kosovo's separation are labeled "Serbian agents" or "Serb apologists". To end this note on a positive, supportive stance, i support Albanian right to self-determination. Yet I have experienced the media war, that happened against Serbs in 1990's. I know how the game is played. Simultaneously, I feel powerless to cause a serious change in peoples opinion. G-d bless.Serbian Defense Forces (talk) 06:15, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

How comes Transnistria has its own country box on top but not Kosovo?

Why do we measure in double standards in this case? Transnistria is much more a disputed country than Kosovo as it is not recognised by no other state, nevertheless Kosovo does not have its country box on top! How comes? --84.56.254.172 (talk) 17:22, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

This has been discussed numerous times. And as always... Transnistria doesn't even have a infobox about the region, it only has ONE infobox, so how can it NOT be on the top? chandler · 17:46, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Why has Kosovo not also just one infobox? Please delete all the other infoboxes, one is enough as shown in the Transnistria case. --Schwarzschachtel (talk) 23:12, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

No. It is NOT a double standard, Transnistria is not a region inside of Moldova. Transnistria does not have a UN resolution of it. chandler · 23:37, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The reason you give is very arbitrary. If a region declares independence and gets recognition it deserves the countrybox and no other, just like in many other cases as shown before. Therefore the double standard is undeniable. --84.56.250.27 (talk) 08:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Recognition is relative. Many countries (the majority actually) do not recognize Kosovo as independent, thus we must have different infoboxes that conform to different neutral points of view. This has been discussed multiple times. Húsönd 19:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to hit the hornets' nest here, but I think the Kosovo situation has evolved/matured somewhat in the past year, and that some decisions made last year could stand to be revisited now. Given that Kosovo has been de facto sovereign for a year now — and that, although its status is still hotly disputed, it is currently recognized by more countries than Taiwan (which has a country box on top) — it seems to me that it's very reasonable to acknowledge the current reality and move Kosovo's country box to the top of the article. If we're comparing Kosovo to the PMR (Transnistria), I would think the case for Kosovo having a prominent country box is stronger than that of the PMR, since the territory of Transnistria is claimed by the Republic of Moldova. Richwales (talk) 19:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The difference with Taiwan is multiple articles (one for the island, one for the country, and one for the PRC region). If the Republic of Kosovo was on Republic of Kosovo the infobox would be at the top, but as I remember it that was shouted down by pro-independence editors. chandler · 19:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Just an observer here, but I think the person who brought up the issue has a point. What exactly is the argument against this? Lemniwinks (talk) 04:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Those already stated here and there and there. Other examples don't have other infoboxes of the region (which in most cases isn't the same, here we have 2 entities claiming the exact same region etc), they might have separate articles for the region and the disputed country (which again, as been shouted down by those who wan't the ROK infobox at the top). So therefore the neutral infobox of the region has been chosen over the Republic of Kosovo's and the UN mandate's infoboxes chandler · 05:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

And as dab wrote on the first of those archives chandler · 05:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Transnistria does indeed seem to have pov problems. Please come to Talk:Transnistria and help fixing them rather than trying to use them for leverage in introducing pov problems to this article. See also WP:OTHERCRAP. The existence of flawed articles is no excuse for introducing even more flaws.

If other articles have obvious NPOV flaws fix them instead of trying to use them as POV-push tools chandler · 05:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I find the reason you give not convincing. Kosovo is a country and not a region. --Tubesship (talk) 23:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Most still say its a province. --Local hero 00:21, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Most countries still say Taiwan is a province of the People's Republic of China. (Even more countries, I believe, than the number which think Kosovo is still part of Serbia.) This isn't a good enough criterion. Richwales (talk) 01:10, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

This is why the article should be SPLIT! You can't cover all the things this article tries to (geographic region, Autonomous Province, UN administration, Republic) in one article without upsetting SOMEONE who thinks that their interpretation should be preeminent. The previous provincial administrations (as part of Yugoslavia) and the 1990s declared republic each have their own page, why not the conflicting modern administrations? Khajidha (talk) 15:43, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

No! Kosovo is a country and includes the region and the geographic, so why should it not be possible to incorporate the "region and the geograpic" as there is no difference at all but they are congruent to each other?! Your reasons are no reasons at all but are only aimed to cause a POV fork. --Schwarzschachtel (talk) 07:49, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

There's no POV fork about having a separate article for the history of a region, a region, different historical governments of a region. chandler · 07:54, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

You may have everything you want if you name it correctly. Kosovo is about the country, no disambiguation, no POV fork. Therefore the country box should be the only one and there is no need for other info boxes, especially not on top of the article. --Schwarzschachtel (talk) 08:20, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

You say that you don't what any distractions? Then why are you being one. this article is NOT about the country formed in 2008 just so you know, this includes pre-2008 about Kosovo (as in the region). And just so you know it's not a POV fork to split information into articles where they fit. See for example how Macedonia is split... again it is not a POV fork to have a article on the historical region called Kosovo and a separate for a new country. If you think that is a POV fork you better actually find out what it means. Just as the Republic of China, and Taiwan isnt one, PR of China and China isnt one, Republic of Macedonia and Macedonia isn't one, etc etc etc. They are not POV forks and neither would this be. chandler · 08:34, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

And I hope you realise that there are other articles that in your mind surely would constitute POV-forks

1. Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1946-1974), a province of Serbia
2. Socialist Autonomous Province of Kosovo (1974-1990), a province of Serbia
3. Republic of Kosova (1990–2000), a self-declared but internationally unrecognised entity
4. Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (1990-1999), a province of Serbia

So you're gonna go and request them to merge with this article right? "no disambiguation, no POV fork.", or do you want to change your mind chandler · 08:39, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

It is enough to look at the sorry state of the mentioned articles to understand that they are indeed POV-forks. Colchicum (talk) 01:25, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Cholchium. It's a shame to see how Wikipedia is getting abused by a few people. --84.56.250.27 (talk) 01:53, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Your example is misleading as the region Macedonia is not congruent with the Republic of Macedonia. I know that you know because this was mentioned before so why do you try persistently to mislead people? --84.56.250.27 (talk) 12:12, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

It doesnt have anything to do with it. The country isn't on "Macedonia" even if it's the most common name. That's why Republic of Kosovo can be on Republic of Kosovo. chandler · 12:29, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Please stop your distraction as I already told you about congruency. There is no congruency in case of Macedonia and that's why Macedonia is not about the country and that's why there must be a disambiguation in case of Macedonia. This is not the case in Kosovo, therefore no disambiguation and no POV fork. Kosovo is the country. --84.56.250.27 (talk) 12:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

First of all, you dont know what a POV fork is if you think EVERY split of an article is a POV fork, second your point about "Macedonia is not congruent with the Republic of Macedonia" doesn't matter as the Repulbic of Macedonia in reality is the primary topic people will look for, But because of a small dispute it's not on Macedonia. While this is a much larger dispute at the moment, you're trying to push through your POV (not bothering about the neutral pov) that the whole world has accepted the Republic of Kosovo as a country and as in power of Kosovo, which is NOT the case. chandler · 00:18, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I am tired of your distractions. --84.56.250.27 (talk) 07:05, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

So don't come back, you're a distraction chandler · 11:15, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Partially recognised country

Shouldn't the lead mention "Kosovo is a partially recognised country" somewhere near the top? Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 22:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

And by mentioning this it should also be annotated that Kosovo has already gained more recognitions than Taiwan. Every day of Kosovos existence nails it firmer on world maps. --84.56.250.27 (talk) 00:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

It does mention, Its majority is governed by the partially-recognised Republic of Kosovo. And comparison with Taiwan is a thing of simple maths, no need to mention it separately. --Tone 10:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Serbian Terror in Kosovo

Maybe we should expand the article a bit and explain readers that Kosovo Albanians suffered from Serbian terrorism since Kosovo became part of Yugoslavia? I think that issues with Serb terror in Kosovo should be dealt in the article. Thank you. Bosniak (talk) 04:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

And the countdown until some Serb poster goes into hysterics over this post begins.Khajidha (talk) 13:44, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, this article is a good example for how Wikipedia can be abused by a group of pro Serbian nationalists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.57.255.224 (talk) 18:22, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, anyone want to take bets on the next post after this one, then? I'll give evens for a hystrionic pro-Serb counterpost and 5/2s on another anti-Serb "yeah-you-tell-'em".  ;) The Tom (talk) 19:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The next post will remind everyone to use the talk page to comment on how to improve the article rather than to belittle the opinion of people who have not yet spoken. If there is something someone can add to this discussion that will result in the article being improved, please do so. Otherwise, please avoid fanning the flames.

Thank you! Big Bird (talk • contribs) 20:17, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Reading some posts is time that seems to be in vain. The article is seriously skewed towards pro-Kosovo seperation from Serbia. Seriously facts, such as K-Albanians burning Serb churches dont make it to the article. Essentially, there are many sources that planly state that the Serb "massacres" in Kosovo were greatly exagurated by the Western Media. Lets Start with that. (This is only for people who know Serbian history very well--->) The top adviser for Milosevic, Jovica Stanisic was working for the CIA. So essentialy, the CIA was calling the shots on the "Serb" side during the conflicts (this is the guy who "conviniently set up a "Serb death squad in Bosnia and taped the killings". This is some truth i share with you. You may wish to consider adding a section about the destruction of Serbian churches. Seems like a relevent thing to add. Lastly, I usually forgive yet I cant forgive stupidity and racism based on false information.Super ZZ 3 (talk) 20:43, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

You remind me of some holocaust deniers. Shame on you. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 21:06, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Stop the Serbophobia!!! Your comment seems to be someone racist. I will forgive your lack of knowledge on this issue. I lived though this [type] of hell and I know that media is biased. YET this is 2009, and now WIKIPEDIA is biased. This is the new front. G-d bless.Super ZZ 3 (talk) 00:20, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Stop defending the racist apartheid regime that existed in Kosovo by telling us lies about the conflict that the serbs are responsible for. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 11:10, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Education in Kosovo

How come there isn't a section/ chapter on Education in Kosovo? It should include the universities, literacy rating, primary language used in the schools ect Ijanderson (talk) 23:50, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Time to remove some templates

Let's all admit that it completely defaces the article to have three templates on top jumbled together. Enough time has passed that the facts should be respected and fact is that Kosovo declared independence, nobody disputes that. At this point any serious challenge to that independence must come in the form of military action. Let's imagine if there was no US war of independence and instead King George simply said "I dispute your independence I think you are just a province" like the case here. Is this enough? Would we regard the US as a province today in that case? Without a war of independence between Serbia and Kosovo how can it be decided? Serbia had the choice to declare war on Kosovo but they did not, they instead gave implicit approval to the independence. The Wikipedia article should reflect the realities on the ground. If Serbs really beleive that Kosovo is part of Serbia they should send in the police to arrest anyone who says otherwise. Hobartimus (talk) 22:14, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

As I've said before this article is being used for three separate concepts, each of which needs its own infobox. The only way to remove the multiple infoboxes is to SPLIT the article and cover each topic separately.Khajidha (talk) 00:37, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Hobartimus and I disagree with Khajidha. Khajidha, you may split but Kosovo will be about the Republic of Kosovo. Make your own article about Metochia or how else the serbian calls whatever they want. This is Wikipedia and not Serbopedia, please respect this fact. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 20:41, 27 March 2009 (UTC)BTW: You have already Kosmet for your sick serbian propaganda. Please do split, because the existing redirection from Kosmet to Kosovo does not reflect the serbian lies.

Whats wrong with reflecting reality? I agree that some countries recognise Kosovo as a seperate entity from Serbia yet most countries dont. Khajidha is right on the issue.Super ZZ 3 (talk) 20:45, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

You want to tell us that Taiwan is not independent as it has far less recognition? Honestly? Read the Montevideo Convention, its first sentence of article 3 explicitly states that "The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states." --84.56.237.2 (talk) 21:02, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

it was signed by Honduras, United States of America, El Salvador, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Argentina, Venezuela, Uruguay, Paraguay, Mexico, Panama, Guatemala, Brazil, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Colombia, Chile, Peru, Cuba, not a majority of the world countries. Nice argument tho.Super ZZ 3 (talk) 00:23, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Again, you want to tell us that Taiwan is not independent as it has far less recognition? Honestly, stop your distratcion. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 07:43, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

This has been discussed many times and it took many lengthy discussions for us to reach the 3-infobox compromise solution. It's WP:NPOV, folks. Please don't restart a discussion that won't lead anywhere. Húsönd 11:58, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

This article is abused and you know that. I am very disappointed that you do want to keep it this way, dear Husond. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 16:03, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

map

The Republic of Kosovo infobox seems to have a map which does not have clear border lines.

This is the only infobox in this whole article the should be doing justice to the Independent State has a map which still shows it as a province of Serbia.

Please can you admins change this map to the one that is use in the CIA World Fact book.

Even though everyone knows that Wikipedia is edited by people, they still look at wikipedia as a main source of information. For this reason i urge all editors of the Kosovo article to make a compromise and only have one infobox (Republic of Kosovo) or to split the article into as many sub-categories as are needed but making sure that the main Kosovo article should be replaced by the Republic of Kosovo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.168.57 (talk) 15:49, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree, the serbs should make their own article named Kosmet, like I proposed. This seems to me to be the only way to get this article right again. At the moment it is unbearable POVis pro-serbian propaganda. --84.56.237.2 (talk) 16:02, 28 March 2009 (UTC)