Talk:Tomás de Torquemada

Confusing comment

' many still believe that he and the Spanish Inquisition generally were responsible for injustice and suffering in their use of torture, anonymous denunciation, and execution by fire in the so-called auto de fe, or "act of faith."' This is highly confusing -- is it asserted by those not 'the many [that] still believe' that the torture, anonymous denunciation, etc. did not cause injustice and suffering, or that they did not exist?

removed link

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14783a.htm

This is the link I removed from the bottom of the page, and you can see by a quick glance this "Catholic Encyclopedia" is apparently from the dark ages. While apologizing heavily for the article's subject, the encyclopedia, among other things, seems to refer to Islam as "Mohommedianism". I haven't heard that in... well, quite frankly, my entire life in a serious context. The entire thing is unencyclopedic and adds nothing to this article.

Catholic Encyclopaedia is used in many articles as a source. To remove it as a source in one article out of hundreds is reckless. I have restored it as a source... -Zulu, King Of the Dwarf People 1:35, 20 February 2006

Yeah, the Encyclopaedia was written in 1917, but even so, it was a bit jarring to read that Torquemada's "enhanced interrogation" may have been necessary to keep the Jews from taking over Spain. The solution to bad speech is more speech, though. Miraculouschaos 00:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Comparison Torquemada - Darth Vader

I removed "Also those that draw comparisons to the Fictional Jedi Knights of the Star Wars Expanded Universe and the Historical Knights Templars, draw parallels between Darth Vader and Toquemada as they both brought the downfall of the respective orders and were the leaders of great purges to wipe out the order." from 'modern allusions to Torquemada', as Torquemada never tried to wipe out the Knights Templar, nor did he bring about their downfall. It seems a bit much of an honour for a man born in 1420 to have been instrumental in the bringing down of an order that was actually suppressed in 1312. Thomas Antonius 08:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

But did not also the Jedi Knights Survive the purge......it was also so with the Knights Templar they were just significantly fewer in number.Winn3317

This is ridiculous - comparing Torquemada to Darth Vader and the Jedi Knights to the Templars?! Doh! ThePeg 23:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Fitting company for him

This Torquemada was voted into "most evil men in history" along with Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, etc. in a recent Discovery Channel programme. Maybe this could be mentioned. 195.70.32.136 14:04, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Torture in the auto de fe

the article implies that torture was part of the auto de fe but following the link to the article specifically about the auto de fe it contains a statement that torture and burning were not part of the auto de fe... it claims torture never happened after sentencing... i'm just casually reserching but i would like to know. which one is it? bloody scourge of torture or religious ritual after sentencing and before execution?

Aran

I added an information about Andrzejewski's novel "The Inquisitors", which deals with the subject of Torquemada's life. I am not certain, however, if it fits into "Modern allusions" category, because making a historical figure the main character of a novel is definitely something more than just an allusion. Maybe it would be wise to add a new category with informations regarding historical novels (or movies) about the Inquisition and Torquemada? I suppose the abovementioned Andrzejewski's work is not the only one...

Modern Allusions

I think in the film Meet the Parents, Ben Stiller's character made a comment about another character in the film calling him "Dr. Torquemada". If anybody knows anything about it they can add it to the modern allusions section. --Nehrams2020 07:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

This section should be re-named. They are direct references, not "allusions". In this context, "allusions" is not the right word, and can even be considered a weasel word.

I agree. I will change it. --Managerpants (talk) 16:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

This Article Has Been Vandalized

I deleted several 'he was bald' from the main text but it still sounds very confusing Dr. Pnz 23:55, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Name

Hmm. "torqueo" or "torquere" is Latin for "torture" and "quemada" is spanish for "burned"... exolon 03:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Reference in "Roma Eterna"

The Robert Silverberg novel seems to reference Torquemada in one chapter. There is a character by the name of "Torquatus", which could easily be seen as a latinization of "Torquemada". They also share a ruthless sense of righteousness and condemned to death people thought to be impure or corruptive influences on society. Torquatus is not Catholic, or even Christian, of course, but then the whole premise of the novel is about an alternate history where Christianity never emerged, so that's not surprising. The only other problem is that this section of the novel is set in 2568 AUC (1815 AD), over 300 years after Torquemada's time. However, the obvious similarities in both name and character make it seem that Silverberg was making an intentional reference, even if the dates are a bit off. Is this worth adding to the "Modern allusions" section? Lurlock 17:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

re torture preferences and section appropriateness

Does the line "It is reputed that one of Torquemada's prefered methods of extracting confessions was to shove a red hot iron into the anus of the accused." really belong in the section "Question of Jewish descent"?

mkm 155.9.10.2 14:07, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

• No, the line doesn't belong there, and I removed it. Also your question doesn't belong with the questions about "Roma Eterna" so I made it a new section. Pete St.John 18:05, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

POV Violation

I have removed "In modern times, Torquemada has become symbolic of the great evils perpetrated by the Roman Catholic Church during the Inquisition." "great evils" is subjective and obviously not a neutral POV as required by Wiki rules.Kmerian 20:17, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

• I would have added the word "reputed" instead of deleting the line. I think most peopole would agree that the Inquistion had unhappy effects, and some responsibiltiy accrued to the Church of the day. Pete St.John 18:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Lot's of POV

There is so much wrong here. For example Torquemada dying of syphilis? That is found nowhere. Only one source seems to be used and it's POV. Henry Kamen's book The Spanish Inquisition points out that the Inquisition was far ahead of civil courts in respecting legal due process. The Inquisition never made to many parts of Spain, especially after the 1st century of its existence. Someone needs a complete rewrite and to eliminate the myths. I removed the worst examples, but there is still work to be done.

This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Much has been written of the inhuman cruelty of Torquemada. Llorente computes that during Torquemada's office (1483-98) 8800 suffered death by fire and 9,654 were punished in other ways (Histoire de l'Inquisition, IV, 252). These figures are highly exaggerated, as has been conclusively proved by Hefele (Cardinal Ximenes, ch. xviii), Gams (Kirchengeschichte von Spanien, III, II, 68-76), and many others. Even the Jewish historian Graetz contents himself with stating that "under the first Inquisitor Torquemada, in the course of fourteen years (1485-1498) at least 2000 Jews were burnt as impenitent sinners" ("History of the Jews", Philadelphia, 1897, IV, 356). Most historians hold with the Protestant Peschel (Das Zeitalter der Entdeckungen, Stuttgart, 1877, pp. 119 sq.) that the number of persons burnt from 1481 to 1504, when Isabella died, was about 2000. Whether Torquemada's ways of ferreting out and punishing heretics were justifiable is a matter that has to be decided not only by comparison with the penal standard of the fifteenth century, but also, and chiefly, by an inquiry into their necessity for the preservation of Christian Spain. The contemporary Spanish chronicler, Sebastian de Olmedo (Chronicon magistrorum generalium Ordinis Prædicatorum, fol. 80-81) calls Torquemada "the hammer of heretics, the light of Spain, the saviour of his country, the honour of his order". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.108.117.53 (talk) 01:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The allusion to St. Pedro de Arbués as having been murdered by a homosexual Catholic bishop not only had no attribution, but was simply inaccurate. See the wikipedia article on St. Pedro and it clearly states that he was killed by several people.70.108.117.53 (talk) 00:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Opinions as fact - Its Wikipedia.

It starts out okay with some basic recountings from history (I suspect cribbed from a public domain encyclopedia)

Then we get gems like this: Torquemada was a certainly relentless adversary; however, the black legend that has grown up around him fails to take into account that Torquemada was one of the chief reformers of the Spanish Inquisition.

No refs to back up that whitewashing opinion whatsoever. Its maddening, what did he do or did not do as a reformer? Wikipedia at its finest. REF IT!... Just gonna blank this statement out. If it has some basis in fact it can be reinstated but this is a major POV issue.

It then goes on to list numerous trivia and pop culture references on Torquemada. So much so that it overwhelms and takes up a huge chunk of the article. Is this what the legacy of Tomas "Hammer of the Heretics" Torquemada? The article comes across like a bad joke that people make of the quality of Wikipedia. --Eqdoktor (talk) 08:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Must have been written by a Catholic propagandist.

"This basic distrust for Jews, converts and otherwise, as well as the dubious sincerity of Moorish converts, was a driving factor in the implementation of the Spanish Inquisition." No. Spain was broke. The inquisition was institutionalized theft of Jewish property. Look it up. This so-called article would be laughable if it were not so poisonous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.138.132 (talk) 18:54, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

This article seems to be very one-sided

The writer seems to have taken the opinion that as long you are a faithful catholic torture is pretty much okay, and not so much of a problem really. I mean if Isabella liked it... I hope this page can be fixed to present a more neutral, less obviously pro-catholic POV.