Talk:Glenn Gould

Asperger syndrome

Surely there should at least be a tentative mention that he probably had Asperger Syndrome. After all, he hated social functions, enjoyed sameness (the chair), didn't like being touched, was obsessive, and was sensitive to temperature (always wearing heavy warm clothes to avoid coldness). It would be great if someone could find a reference in which an expert asserts that Gould may have had AS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.117.23.107 (talk) 12:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, there is a tentative mention of it, in the section "Health". But to discuss the matter itself, I dont think it's necessary to assume that he had Aspergers - although he had a large array of mental and physical problems, for sure. He apparently actually was physically very sensitive and had problems with blood circulation, hence the colds. He didn't like being touched because he was afraid of germs - this is a fear he inherited from his parents. He was certainly obsessive and anxious, but those aren't necessarily symptoms of Aspergers. I attribute him using the same chair to the fact that first of all his piano techique required a very low chair, and of course a pianist prefers to use an instrument he knows. Second of all he did play on other chairs (there are photos of that happening), the claim that he used nothing but it are just a part of the Gould-myth that he himself probably consciously helped create.--Wormsie (talk) 15:58, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Wormsie. While I myself suspect that he did have Asperger's, it's still never been proven. Anyway, there already is a tentative mention of the possibility under the "Health" section. --DearPrudence (talk) 03:20, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it can't be proven, though there has been some speclation about it in Gould's biographies. To me the whole "Gould had aspergers"-theory sounds like wanting to oversimplify his personality to a blunt "oh, he was strange because he had aspergers", like all we ever needed to know of him was that he had aspergers. Such judgements are potentially very dehumanizing to a person. Of course this is an encyclopedia, and we deal with facts, not feelings, but even so, describing on somebody's personality solely on the basis of his assumed mental condition is, besides disrespectful, inaccurate.--Wormsie (talk) 23:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. --DearPrudence (talk) 00:12, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

'His biographer Peter Ostwald, a psychiatrist, while insisting that Gould did not fit any one psychological or medical category, noted that some of his childhood and adolescent behaviour resembled Asperger's syndrome [...] the subject has since been pursued by Timothy Maloney, who shared his detailed research with me; his findings have not yet been published. So far I have not been persuaded that such a diagnosis really fits the biographical facts or is necessary for making sense of Gould. - Bazzana, 2003, p.5 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.137.30.238 (talk) 12:50, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

spine injury

Can anyone verify that new section? --Quadalpha 05:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Haven't heard this one before. There was that shoulder injury while visiting Steinway in New York, of course, but surely that's not what's alluded to. Curious to know the source for this. --Max Blaze 07:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

There's a bit about it in Friedrich's book in Chapter 2 near the middle (a snippet of an interview with Gould's father) but nothing there about prescription drugs... hmmm. --Monk127 07:31, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Friedrich's book mentions possible spine injury Gould suffered as a child.--83.145.240.253 09:48, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The Gold/Gould Name Change

I don't know anything about whether the name change is true, but if the article is going to mention it, then it should at least mention what the name was changed from. Right now it just says it was changed to avoid association with the name 'Gold'. Inserting the words 'from Gold' would help clarify the paragraph, and not require the reader to read later in the sentence to understand the earlier part. In other words, it'd be better writing.

Let me preface this by pointing out: it's not a myth, it's true. I have altered the article and provided full references from Bazzana, who has researched the subject properly. For a full discussion, may I point you towards: 'Wondrous Strange: The Life and Art of Glenn Gould', by Kevin Bazzana, p.24-28. 13:16, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

The article included a claim that "Gould was born Glen Gold" and that his family "changed its name ... fearing that it would otherwise be mistaken as Jewish ..." This kind of speculation shows up all too often in many places ([1], [2], [3] are just a few), even in Peter Ostwald's psychoanalytic quasi-biography of Gould.

There was no such name change. In fact, Glenn Gould's parents were Russell Herbert ("Bert") Gould and Florence ("Flora") Emma Greig Gould, Presbyterians of Scottish extraction. I have corrected the paragraph accordingly, with an embedded comment referring to this talk page section. Reference: Otto Friedrich, Glenn Gould: A Life and Variations (Vintage Books, a division of Random House, New York, 1989), pp. 13-14. Friedrich provided considerable detail; here is just a scrap:

Peter Greig, one of thirteen children of a Scottish farmer, emigrated to Canada in the mid-nineteenth century. He and his wife, Emma, had ten children, one of whom was Charles Holman Greig, who married Mary Catherine Flett, whose father, a carpenter from the Orkneys, died in a fall from the roof of the Bank of Montreal. One of their children, Florence, duly met and married Russell Herbert Gould, whose father's business card said: "Thomas G. Gould, Fur Salon, Designers and Manufacturers of Quality Fur Garments." Bert Gould inherited and managed that prosperous fur business. His wife was forty-two when their only son was born. But even before he was born, according to her niece, Jessie Greig, "she did play music all the time she was carrying Glenn, with the hope that he was going to be a classical pianist." [emphasis added]

In the context of the apparent popularity of the belief in the mythical Gold/Gould name change, it should be noted that if antisemitism was a problem the name Gould was itself quite enough to attract it — compare similar but more openly hostile nineteenth century speculation remarked upon in the Jay Gould article:

Contrary to the assumptions of Henry Ford and Henry Adams, who presumed Gould to be a Jew, Gould's father was of British colonial ancestry, and his mother of Scottish ancestry .... Anti-semitism in connection with Gould's name motivated some of this hostility, even though he was born a Presbyterian and married an Episcopalian. [emphasis added]

In addition to how problematic and harmful speculation can be, and how peculiarly inappropriate it is in an encyclopedia article, the Presbyterian/Scottish connection has gone unnoticed here as well. Of the many names on the list of those with the surname Gould, I would not be surprised if far more than half have Scots/British ancestral roots. Athaenara ✉ 00:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, your comments certainly sound authoritative! Why do you privilege Friedrich's narrative over Bazzana's? His biography is quite clear on this point: "[Glenn's] birth certificate gave his name as 'Gold, Glenn Herbert.' The family name had always been Gold, and when his grandfather...established the family business in 1913, he gave it the name 'Gold Standard Furs' (pun presumably intended). All of the documents through 1938 that survive among Gould's papers give his surname as 'Gold,' but beginning at least as early as 1939 the family name was almost always printed as 'Gould' in newspapers, programs, and other sources; the last confirmed publication of 'Gold' is in the program for a church supper and concert on October 27, 1940." (Bazzana, Wondrous Strange, 24).

Now, I don't want to stand in the way of your sanctimoniousness, but I believe that documentary evidence weighs in as the only proof of historical fact. Your quotation from Friedrich offers no documentary evidence -- only an undated business card.

Bazzana goes on to discuss the regrettable climate of increasing xenophobia that apparently prevailed in Toronto at the time, and the influence this may have had on the (documented!) name change, but any thoughtful person can surmise from the dates (1939-40) that this may have been the case.

In any event, this entire discussion is much less "problematic and harmful" (whatever that means) than inane and boring. The information is anecdotal, and of mild and passing interest, but really, WHO CARES one way or the other? Max Blaze 00:33, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I do, for one. Regardless of the motivation for the change, if it is indeed true that the name was changed, this is exactly the sort of detail that an encyclopedia should be recording. The experts seem to be disagreeing, but I wait with baited breath for the day when the truth - whatever it is - can finally be revealed. JackofOz 10:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

My understanding is that various sources confirm the parent's name change although the official record is 'missing'. I believe that there is no evidence to suggest a motivation, although there are the above-mentioned speculations. I believe that the article should make some mention of this issue, but restricting itself as far as possible to well-sourced statements of fact, and avoiding repeating unsubstantiated speculations (or clearly noting them as such). If it is felt to be a contentious issue then we do not need to mention it in the infobox or lead section, and could simply include a footnote to the sentence about his birth, summarizing the evidence. Stumps 02:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I made a few footnotes documenting both sides of the issue. :)--Wormsie 14:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Nice work ... I'll see if I can dig up an other evidence one way or the other ... I seem to remember some reference to the actual birth certificate. Stumps 23:30, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, good use of footnotes. --Ronz 23:53, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

EL to parody site

I don't see how the Glenn Gould De-Vocalizer 2000 external link is appropriate per WP:EL. I've marked it as (Parody) while we discuss it. --Ronz 16:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

no practice

The article states: "Gould maintained that he never practised the piano."

I believe he's downright lying: it's a myth. Franz Liszt, the true first modern piano virtuoso used to play scales and arpeggios 12 hours a day. 201.40.20.130 16:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't mean that Gould did. You can argue one way or another over who is better, but they're still different pianists, and therefore have different ways of working. I believe Gould's claim. --DearPrudence 20:10, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

No pianist ever achieves virtuosism without long practicing sessions. You can read all literature you want about past virtuosos and prodigies like Mozart, Beethoven, Liszt etc. The claim is ridiculous and I take it to mean he was more than just "eccentric". Or perhaps he indeed didn't practice and that's why was concerned more with less virtuosistic music by Bach rather than the more demanding romantic piano repertoire. Easy to dismiss playing Chopin or Liszt on the basis of not liking them... 200.193.250.50 08:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I still believe him, but I even if you don't, I think that the article puts it quite well - it says that he claimed he never practised, which is true; whether he actually did or not is uncertain, but it cannot be proven either way, and the article doesn't claim to. If the article said outright that he never practised, I might side with you simply because there's no way of knowing whether he did or not for sure; as it is written now, it leaves room for you to make up your own mind. --DearPrudence 16:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Somebody removed the "claimed"-bit. When I get my hands again on one book on Gould, I'll try to add some quotations from other people about this, I remember reading that for example while in Russia he used to practice quite a lot. Also, it is reported that in his childhood he used to practice until the late hours of the day.--Wormsie 19:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

"Less virtuosic music by Bach" -- surely we're not meant to take this comment seriously. Gould's technical facility at the keyboard was once questioned by one imprudent critic, who was immediately and roundly derided. There can't be anyone out there with ANY familiarity with Gould's recordings who would seriously make such a suggestion -- even leaving aside the astoundingly ill-informed prejudice against Bach's music that such a comment reveals. Even the most ill-disposed toward Gould's recordings could not make such a suggestion except on the basis of supreme ignorance. 194.176.201.10 10:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out. --DearPrudence 16:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think it is a myth that Liszt played scales 12 hours a day. SG March 9 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.48.9.22 (talk) 06:21, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Gould, savory only in Bach?

• This is a higly subjective personal take on Gould. I beg pardon, but I felt the need for such a presentation.*

It's been about a year since I've first accessed this article. At that time, I was fresh in to Gould and was compelled by this article to believe that he was good only in Baroque repertoire. However, after twelve months of listening, I must say that the assertion is complete nonsense! His recordings of Brahms, Scriabin, Bizet, and Ravel have garnered critical acclaim and people should definitely take a dose of such recordings before attempting to criticize Gould. An even more compelling evidence of his propensity at standard, virtuosic repertoire would be his recording of the complete Beethoven concertos. Not once have I felt that his posture hindered him from producing a more full sound from the piano compared with other acknowledged Beethoven specialists such as Brendel or Serkin, not to mention that he DOES NOT always play in choppy portamento, as this article might lead you to believe. Glenn Gould's tone is actually amazingly sumptuous once you obtain the state of mind to actually appreciate how "romantic" he is. This is evident not only in recordings of Romantic repertoire, but also in Gould's takes of Baroque music. I seriously think this article, in an attempt to be neutral, has actually become negatively prejudiced towards Gould's versatility as a pianist.61.82.69.94 16:10, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

http://www.unpronounceable.com

I removed this as spam, mistakenly thinking it was added by the same editor that's added it many, many times before. My apologies. --Ronz 16:36, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Playing Style

No mention of the fact he doesn't use much (if any) pedal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.21.176.141 (talk • contribs) 00:50, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The Brahms Incident

The Bernstein/Brahms incident would certainly be worth recounting...if someone can accurately capture it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.21.176.141 (talk • contribs) 00:50, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I've found a transcription of Lenny's remarks on the web. I happened to tape this broadcast from radio some time ago, and I checked and slightly edited the text in a few places. It had a few words in all caps for stress, which I though was inappropriate for Wikipedia. It had one spelling error ("descrepencies" for discrepancies). -- JackofOz 06:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Great of you to have found it, it's also available as an audio file in the archive page of one of the links. However, quoting the whole of the speech is hardly in order (it's place might be in Wikiquote), and in any case this incident would be worth mentioning perhaps in the "eccentricies"-section or the section about his playing.--Wormsie 15:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, my edit was kind of destructive. :/ I tried to move it somewhere else with cuts, but couldn't. Somebody else, please try. :) I did move it to Wikiquote.--Wormsie 16:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Practice in general

If someone knows how to to incorporate this information to the article, please do so :) The bit about practiving without hearing what you are playing is interesting and actually supports the viewpoint that Gould thought it was more useful to practice in your head.--Wormsie 19:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not ready to rule out Gould's claim, though he probably exaggerated it. Jean-Pierre Rampal said he never practiced, and of course Paganini let on that he had help from the Dark Side. The whole thing reminds me of a Calvin & Hobbes strip:

CALVIN: What are you doing?

SUSIE: Studying for the test tomorrow.

CALVIN: But I thought you were smart.

71.187.42.174 23:14, 12 August 2007 (UTC)Archer, 12 August 2007

This debate about whether or not Glenn practiced seems silly in the extreme. Of course he practiced! What, he just walked out on stage having run through the music once? Give me a break! It's true that in his later years he CLAIMED to have given up practicing -- if you accept that the many, many recordings he made of each piece before he was happy with it DIDN'T COUNT as practicing -- but seeing as you can watch video of him practicing (numerous examples on The Glenn Gould Collection tapes) AND that he often referred to having disliked the 'many months of preparation' one had to do for a concert tour, I think we can confirm that like any other human being, he practiced. OK??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.111.200 (talk) 13:40, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, getting a quote from an actual book would be in order, and not just Gould's own words. For example, "Life and Variations", which is the one I read, had excerpts of Gould's diaries where he himself discusses pieces he has played. I do believe, however, that it is very possible Gould had his own way of practicing and he definitely was musically very intelligent. Also, it is possible to just learn pieces by reading the sheet music or going through the piece in your head, at least to an extent, but I'd find it very improbable that practicing a piece would consist of nothing but using your imagination for the excercise.--Wormsie 18:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Unhealthy diet

Gould, a bachelor, fed himself a continuous diet of fried eggs. He died prematurely. Was there a causal connection?Lestrade 12:37, 10 September 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

I think his use of mixed medication contributed more to the fact, but it must have been one factor.--Wormsie 20:37, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Details of the paper by Maloney?

This section about Glenn Gould mentions a paper by Dr Tim Maloney in which he presented the idea that Gould had Asperger syndrome, but I can't find any publication details or obvious link to this paper. It strikes me as very odd that an article that is supposed to be at a scholarly standard gives no citation to an important source that is discussed. I can't even find what year or in what journal this paper was supposedly published. Have I overlooked something here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.15.48 (talk) 09:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You are right that there should be a proper citation ... one source which also does not pin down where the paper was published is Toronto's "Globe and Mail" of 1 Feb 2000. See [4] Stumps 07:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The correct citation for the paper ... collected in a book on disability in music .. has been added as a footnote to the article. Stumps 04:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

"Clockwise motion associated with left-handedness"

This footnote has irked me for quite some time. When I play the piano, I sometimes sway in a clockwise motion - however, I am right-handed. We can't just say "clockwise motion is associated with left-handedness" without a source (preferably a doctor). The other option is to directly quote someone who has said that about Gould, but just by itself the claim is purely meaningless speculation and yet another case of exaggerating Gould's eccentric behaviour just for the sake of making him seem stranger and creating a sensation. No offence to the person who added that piece of information, but I'd like to know what his sources were.--Wormsie 12:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

As nobody has commented on this, I will edit the article as I see fit.--Wormsie 11:17, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Cornelia Foss - source?

There is a story under the Relationships section that talks about Cornelia Foss and the affair she had with Gould. I've never read the article - could someone please cite it properly? I'm not doubting the validity of the information, but at the moment it is difficult to verify because it's only cited as coming from an August 25, 2007 article in the Toronto Star. A proper citation (templates here) would be appreciated.

Thanks! --DearPrudence 21:54, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Mnemonic memory?

Given the paragraph's focus on his ability to mentally practice a physical activity, it seems to me the person who typed the sentence "Gould's large repertoire also demonstrated this natural mnemonic gift." might have meant "Gould's large repertoire also demonstrated this gift of kinesthetic memory." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.168.0.24 (talk) 03:48, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Silence of the Lambs

I removed the part that claims Gould's Goldberg Variations appears in the Film Silence of the Lambs. The film credits Jerry Zimmerman with the performance. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102926/soundtrack

JunblaA 8:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure about that. People associated with the film didn't add that information in, IMDb users did. Also, compare Google hits for "Silence of the Lambs" with "Jerry Zimmerman ([5]) against a search with "Glenn Gould" ([6]). I'm going to replace the information in the article for the moment until it is conclusively proven that it was Zimmerman and not Gould. At the moment things seem to point to Gould. --DearPrudence (talk) 00:17, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Have you listened to Gould's version, and the film version as well? They're not the same. The film version's Aria is clearly played at a faster tempo, and repeated, which Gould did not do. Gould comes up more, because he is explicitly mentioned in the book, and clearly a more popular pianist.

This site: http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1800367822/cast also lists Zimmerman. I'm not sure what is going to "conclusively prove" that it was not Gould. Does the writer of this article have evidence that it was Gould, other than quantity of Google hits? I have IMDb and Yahoo Movies supporting me here.

JunblaA 3:45, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with JunblaA. Having listened closely to the SOTL version I'm quite convinced it's not Gould. The ornamentation is not in Gould's style either. Compare it to the much slower tempo Hannibal version where you can hear Gould humming. Someone else put the Zimmerman claim back in the other day and in editing that section I left it in. The balance of evidence is I think 99% not Gould so I think it reasonable Zimmerman stays in until proven otherwise. Welham66 (talk) 11:54, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

RE: Lost Recording

It states in the article that a lost recording was discovered of Gould performing a Bach Piano Concerto. I'm pretty sure Bach never wrote any piano concertos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Halfabeet (talk • contribs) 21:31, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

He did, actually! Here is a volume of them on Amazon. Here is Gould playing one of them. --DearPrudence (talk) 06:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Bach didn't write anything that he called a piano concerto: the fortepiano barely existed at the time he was writing those concertos. (It did exist, but was still in the early stages of development and not widely used. Bach seems to have encountered them at around the same time as writing his last keyboard concertos, and not been very impressed.) I think he actually called them all harpsichord concertos, but haven't been able to check this. (Oh, and I think they're all arrangements of other works -- concertos for other instruments, pieces for harpsichord(s) without orchestra, that sort of thing.) Gareth McCaughan (talk) 12:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

You are right on both counts, assuming the wikipedia page on this subject (Harpsichord concertos (J. S. Bach)) is correct. However, although it seems Bach did call them harpsichord concertos, I think it should be acceptable to call them keyboard concertos in this article; otherwise, there might be some confusion as to the instrument on which Gould played them. JeanneShade (talk) 01:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I propose the phrase to be changed to "keyboard concerto". Although recordings quite commonly use a piano to play his keyboard works (just as a guitar is often used in recordings of his lute works), the concerto would not have been written for the piano and it is inaccurate to imply that it was. Halfabeet (talk) 14:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

BBC documentary, February 2008

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/archivehour/pip/c99de/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 (talk) 20:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Not athletic

'Though not athletic, Gould was a sociable young man.' Why would not being athletic stop someone being sociable?! Tpacw (talk) 18:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Though not obese, Gould would sometimes write with ball–point pens.Lestrade (talk) 14:23, 21 January 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

Chronic prostatitis

I can't find any evidence he had chronic prostatitis in the linked article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.208.74.185 (talk) 11:45, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Other vocalizers

Yesterday (i.e., 2008-11-01), someone at 86.138.6.116 changed the statement that Keith Jarrett also vocalizes while playing the piano to say that Oscar Peterson did. It appears to be true, and widely remarked, that Jarrett does this; perhaps Peterson did too, but he doesn't appear to be particularly noted for doing so. 86.138.6.116 appears to have made no other edits ever. Being a cynical sort, I suspect hit-and-run vandalism, and have undone the edit (and wikilinked Jarrett while I'm at it) for the sake of safety :-). If someone familiar with Gould's, Jarrett's and Peterson's playing reckons that Gould's vocalizations are more Petersonic than Jarrettoid, then fair enough... Gareth McCaughan (talk) 23:25, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This is a nice article; it gives what is probably an appropriate amount of space to Gould's composing. I do have some other issues with the article; they are in my review on the comments page. Questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 16:08, 23 January 2009 (UTC)