Talk:Seljuk Empire

Founder

The dynasty was founded by Tughrul Bey, not by Seljuq. Seljuq was only the eponymous ancestor. This needs to be corrected. Also, I think that it's best to remove any reference to ethnic origins from this article and instead put it into the Seljuq dynasty article. The Seljuq Empire was a multi-ethnic and multi-lingual empire that streched from Central Asia to Arabia, although it was Turkish- and Persian-ruled. This article should only focus on the empire, its geography, and its political importance.

I recently created this article by dividing the Seljuq dynasty article. There are couple of problems to be fixed in the article that's for sure. Deliogul 09:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I also think that the "Büyük Selçuklu Devleti" in the box is misleading an wrong. The modern Turkish language did not exist at the time of the Seljuqs, and it was certainly not the language of the Seljuq dynasty. While the dynasty itself was heavily Persianized and Islamized (Arabized), a heavily Persianized and Arabized Turkmen was the language of the tribal chiefs who served in the military of the Seljuqs (similar to the Ottoman language). Besides that, the Turkish identity of the Seljuqs is controversial anyway. For example, C. Fijnaut and L. Paoli write: "In the Seljuq periods, the authorities viewed Georgians, Iranians, and Slavs as the top ranking peoples, and Turks and Turkmens as the lowest. Turkish was a language only to be spoken by people of humble descent, and it is not difficult to find offensive and racist comments in the writings of Seljuq authors." (2004, Springer, pg 206) So I think that it should be removed. It is only relevant to the Turkish Wikipedia article, but not in the English Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.153.142 (talk) 13:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Who added this Turkish template to the English Wikipedia?!!!! Deliogul 15:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC) Note: It is normal now. Deliogul 08:16, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Reminder

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Please, see Meatpuppetry section, too. E104421 (talk) 15:17, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Quotations

Or else we will have to cquote every statement. The fact is that the statements thus far talk about Persian language, Culture and Persianization. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 17:10, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

• Quotation: Encyclopædia Britannica article: "Seljuq", Online Edition, 2007.:"also spelled Seljuk ruling military family of the Oguz (Ghuzz) Turkmen tribes that invaded southwestern Asia in the 11th century and eventually founded an empire that included Mesopotamia, Syria, Palestine, and most of Iran. Their advance marked the beginning of Turkish power in the Middle East." Please, do not remove that sentence. Regards. E104421 (talk) 18:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Nationality

Stop editing to "Persian" origin. Seljuqs and all their states are Turkish states. Pan-Persian blanking should stop anymore. Encyclopedia Iranica is not a reliable source. IT states everyone is Persian. stop it.

--Polysynaptic (talk) 11:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

It does not say "Persian", it says "Persianate" which is something different. Read the article Persianate society. The Seljuqs were ethnic Turks, but they were Persianate in culture, language, and even identity. That's what most scholastic sources say:

• "Turcoman armies coming from the East had driven the Byzantines out of much of Asia Minor and established the Persianized sultanate of the Seljuks." (Jonathan Dewald, "Europe 1450 to 1789: Encyclopedia of the Early Modern World", Charles Scribner's Sons, 2004, p. 24) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.130.148 (talk) 12:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

"Persianate" is ridiculous and racist expression. noone can except it. Go to Melik Şah and say "You are Persianate!" what doyou think answer?

They were Turkish. Of course Persian language were being used togather with Arabic as Lingua Franca. I ama Turksih man and i am writing in English. am I Anglicisied? of course not! Some orientalists think that they were "Persianated". IF they were Perisanated thus persianate, how do you think there would be A Republic of Turkey 1000 years after??? There tens of milions of Turks in Iran which is a Persian country. And those Turks are not Persianated. They speak Turkish. Their culture is Turkish. Lingua Franca and identity of a country are differnet things.

Finally what for to blank the references??? that is unexceptable! removing references is blanking which is vandalism.

--Polysynaptic (talk) 15:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

You are ignoring scholastic sources, and believe me: if you continue, it will get you banned. The Seljuqs did not identify themselvs as Turks or Persian, but simply as Seljuqs. The expression "Turk" was pejorative at that time and was a reference to "barbarian" Turkish nomads. Even in the Ottoman Empire, the word "Turk" was considered an insult:

• ... in the Imperial society of the Ottomans the ethnic term Turk was little used, and then chiefly in a rather derogatory sense, to designate the Turcoman nomads or, later, the ignorant and uncouth Turkish-speaking peasants of the Anatolian villages ... (Bernard Lewis quoted in O. Mehmet, "Islamic Identity and Development: Studies of the Islamic Periphery mentions", 1990, p. 115)
• ... One consequence was to reinforce these officers sense of their Turkish nationality, and a sense of national grievance arising out of the contrast between the non-Muslim communities, with their prosperous, European-educated elites, and 'the poor Turks [who] inherited from the Ottoman Empire nothing but a broken sword and an old-fashioned plough.' Unlike the non-Muslim and non-Turkish communities, they noted with some bitterness, the Turks did not even have a proper sense of their own national identity, and used to make fun of each other, calling themselves 'donkey Turk' ... (Handan Nezir Akmeshe, "The Birth Of Modern Turkey: The Ottoman Military And The March To World War I", I.B.Tauris, 2005. p. 50)

It was no different in the Seljuq era:

• ... The word Türk which was used at the beginning in such meanings as "nomad and peasant," later on departed from these meanings and came to be used to mean "stupid, doll-witted" (aptal, idraksiz). The Seljuqids [...] used the word to distinguish themselves from the nomadic Turcoman tribes ("Türk") and from those who were non-urban ... (Soykut, Mustafa. "Historical Image Of The Turk In Europe", Isis Press, Istanbul 2003, p. 14, ISBN 9754282471)

A famous poem of that time says:

• ... Nedir bildin me sin âlemde Türk'ü -- Ola eğninde kürkü, başında börkü -- Ne meszheb bile, ne din, ne diyânet -- Yumaz yüzün ne abdest ü tehâret ... (translation: "Did you know who is the Turk in this world? -- The one who has fur on his back and a fur hat on his head -- He does not know about religion, or religious sects, or piety -- Never washes his face, perform ablutions, or cleans himself"; Agha Sırrı Levend, Divan Edebiyatı, Istanbul 1984, p. 597) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.130.148 (talk) 15:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

If you continue your disruptive behavior, you will get banned. So please stop ignoring and deleting sources! "Persianate" is a common English word in scholastic sources. Just read the article Persianate society.

---

Initially you should sign your comments.

First, there everytime were people, such as artists, poets, and officers, even Sultans, who were against Turkish identity. They did use the word "Turk" to mean bad things, or for to associate bad things. That is true. But this never make the word "Turk" an "insult word". Every nation experienced it including Jews, Armenians, Englishes, Irishes, Germans, etc. But the identity never changes and insults define insulters -in the history, as well as at present. You read a few pages and think "Turk" is an insult word for Seljuks and Ottomans. That shows how ignorant you are about Turkish history. "Turk" has been the name of the states Turks founded for thousands of years. including Seljuks and Ottomans. I will not teach you Turkish history. Becasue you do not deserve it. But you shoud know "mr. nameless" that Turks never used "Turk" with a bad meaning except those who were not Turk but among Turks.

Seljuqs, just like Otomans, Göktürks, Karahanids, Oghuz Yabgu State, and Republic of Turkey... and just like all states and empires "Turkish" people founded were Turkish. Manuplating words, using biased, nationalist, "anti-turkist", and racist "writings" as sources to define Turkish entities as "x-ated", "not-Turkish but Turkic" or whatelse is just teach me how Persians are cursed with inferiority complex.

Do not change the identity of Turkish people, dynasties, states, empires, scientists.

Do not blank references which are not devoted for "Persianated theory"

I am not vandal. I am contributing Wikipedia by putting the truth first. But those who begrudge other nations success, tend to be.

--Polysynaptic (talk) 10:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Seljuqs were Persianate without a doubt. The important thing is to determine the degree of it. Imho, they were under heavy Persian influence, at least when we consider the noble class of the empire. Deliogul (talk) 11:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

You don't understand. "Persianate" is not a legitimate word, nor a legitimate feinition, nor a legitimate term.

--Polysynaptic (talk) 11:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

polysynaptic haklı, arada sırada türk taklidi yapın, persinated da ne demek aq--Orkh (talk) 04:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Please use English for talk page discussions on the English wikipedia. john k (talk) 16:42, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Great Seljuq Empire was clearly a Turkish Empire. Stop non-sense pan-Iraninan propaganda with references like "Encyclopedia Iranica". You can visit the http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/site/encyclopedia/article_show/Seljuk_Empire/m0009478.html link and see that the empire was Turkish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bkadirbeyoglu (talk • contribs) 11:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Protection Helped Vandalism

please;

{{editprotected}}

I requested protection against IP Vandalism and blanking. But you protected the article after vandal edited the article.

please UNDO LAST ACTION of anonymous IP user 82.83.133.161.

--Polysynaptic (talk) 14:50, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

N Declined. See meta:Wrong version. Sandstein (talk) 17:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

THE NAME OF SELJUQ

The name of Seljuq comes from SALCIK -after Selcuk... Sal meaning in Turkish=RAFT and cık=little (supplementary) Selçuk=Little RAFT.. and Raft was very important for Seljuqs.For example Oğuz Turks couldnt pass to Volga river without Raft.Just winters when river freezed. Sorry for Bad english but anybody dont talk about their name origin. And Source "Jean Paul Roux" his book: Faune et Flore sacrees p134, and Turkish writer Doğan Avcıoğlu History Of Turks p372" Please add this information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.224.87.216 (talk • contribs) 11:34, January 22, 2008 (UTC) – Please sign your posts!

Name

from where does the prefix "Great" come from? Isn't it redundant or even POV?--Pejman47 (talk) 09:31, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The epithet serves to distinguish it from the Seljuk sultanates that split off from the Great Sultanate around the end of the 11th century, mostly upon the death of Malik Shah I, such as those of Anatolia, Kerman, Syria, and Iraq, all under the leadership of members of the Seljuk dynasty, descendants of Seljuk.  --Lambiam 00:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Minor edits needed in the References

Ref. 13 loses its italic form roughly 2/3 of the way through, and ref. 16 shows as misaligned larger bold text. The regular Edit command doesn't offer the text of the Refs., so I couldn't fix these items (except for 16., which I didn't know what to do with.) Nikevich (talk) 09:04, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Turko-Persian

http://books.google.com/books?q=Seljuk+turko-persian --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:20, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Great Seljuq Empire was a Turkish empire, not a Turco-Persian.

Please stop editing with references from Encyclopedia Iranica, which is biased. Bkadirbeyoglu (talk) 18:12, 6 July 2009 (UTC)