Talk:Technical death metal

I've removed Meshuggah from the list as their own article states them as experimental metal(a more fitting genre anyway.) --96.239.171.13 (talk) 03:59, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Meshuggah

Meshuggah is hardly a technical death metal band. Sure, they are complex but they do not have strong elements of death metal in their music. Nonreliable/unknowledgable sources(in terms of death metal)were also supplied. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.144.32.250 (talk) 15:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll repeat what I said before: "they fit the description (unexpected, difficult to play, difficult to comprehend, written without distinct choruses, layered time signatures, dissonant or atonal guitar riffs, jazz fusion influences).". They have significant death metal traits like guttural vocals, fast paced (older albums) heavily distorted downtuned guitars, fast solos, etc. And why would the sources be "unknowledgable"? Blender is a respectable review site, and about.com:heavy metal is a well known metal site. Meshuggah have a lot in common with bands like Coprofago and Martyr if you ask me. They're not the average technical death metal band (if there is such a thing) but they definitively fit the genre. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 15:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I love Meshuggah and all, but surely they lie on more progressive/experimental side of avant-garde/math metal. I mean, sure they have elements of tech death, but the predominant elements of their music lie in a more progressive sense. Their latest efforts are also vapid of tech-death elements; they are fairly easy to play, not terrible difficult to comprehend, and theres little to no jazz fusion left(as Fredrik hardly writes leads anymore.) I also wouldn't trust Blender personally for anything Death Metal related, but that's just me.

Also, Encyclopedia Metallum categorizes them as 'Technical post-thrash.[2]' Perhaps it would be better to put them under that category? --Tsunekuni 22:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I completely disagree. Their latest efforts aren't fast but still are extremely difficult to play. Have you ever heard their timing? The timing is extremely complex. Polyrhythms, odd time signatures, unpredictable turns, long chromatic riffs difficult to memorize, thing reminiscent of f.e. fusion band Steve Coleman And Five Elements. Nearly all professional reviews I read are praising their technicality. Their music might not be fast (anymore) but it's still technical. Listend to Mind´s Mirrors (Catch 33). They play the exact same thing live.

Encyclopaedia Metallum is a nice site but not a metal authority. The genres you mentioned "progressive/experimental ... avant-garde/math metal" aren't mentioned either. Many sources consider Meshuggah death metal and I can understand why. Listen to songs like The Mouth Licking What You've Bled and Concatenation (Chaosphere) and you will hear many characteristics of death metal: fast low tuned heavily distorted guitars, fast chromatic riff, and solos, fast double bass parts, grunted/screamed vocals. They're technical death metal, amongst other genres such as avant-garde metal and progressive/experimental groove metal. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 21:22, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Uh, I've heard all their CDs and am quite a big fan. Catch 33's material is far easier to perform then the stuff present on DEI and CS(which really isn't too bad either, minus the leads). It's not terribly tough to remember, either.

I'm not denying the death metal elements they may indeed have, but I'm trying to say that they are more progressive in their approach(IE, odd time signatures/structures). I think they'd be more at home in the progressive metal list(and are already present there.) --Tsunekuni 21:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

This sounds like original research, I don't believe their music is "not terribly tough to remember" and relatively easy to perform. Some parts have such long complicated rhythms and variations they almost sound randomized. I've never read a professional review stating their new work was easier to perform. In fact I've often read the opposite, their new work is considered more complex. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 22:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

What I'm trying to get at is that the music is not difficult to perform when compared to technical death metal bands such as Spawn of Possession, Carcariass, Martyr, Gorguts, Misogyny, etc etc etc. Also, when reading a "professional review," you must keep in mind that the reviewer may not, in fact, be a musician. He/She might not have any idea what a polyrythm is at all(I would hope someone reviewing Meshuggah does, heh). Then you are left to your ears. And when I listen to Meshuggah I hear far more progressive elements(oddball time sigs, complex rhythms with traditional instruments, unique song structures and such). Sure, some of the elements of progressive metal are akin to technical death metal, but that does not mean that they are tech death.

I'm trying to make a point, being a tech death fan, enthusiast and player that Meshuggah just doesn't quite cut it as a "tech death" band. Progressive death is a far more suitable title that accurately describes their compositions, much more so then "tech death" can. --Tsunekuni 03:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

As you've provided no argument to what Tsunekuni said, I removed Meshuggah from the page. --205.144.32.250 16:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I didn't reply because Tsunekuni was not bringing new arguments to the discussion. They are considered death metal by many sources (see here). They are certainly technical (just listen to Thordendal's solos and look up Haake on youtube). They fit the technical death metal description in the article. There are sources to back it up. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 16:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

If technical death metal were decided on solos, then certaintly we could count Morbid Angel, Obituary, and many other old school death metal bands. If we counted drums, then a good portion of brutal death metal could be counted as technical death metal. You need all the elements combined. Which, when combined, I wholeheartedly agree with Tsunekuni. The overall sound is more progressive, and the approach they take is progressive. Thusly, I would deem them progressive death metal. --205.144.32.250 17:04, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

There you go, brutal death metal and old school death metal (like Morbid Angel) are fast but generally are not that difficult to comprehend and have no jazz fusion influences. Both jazz fusion influences and extremely complex song structures are typical technical death metal (and Meshuggah) traits. All Meshuggah members play complex, jazz fusion influenced, technical beats and riffs. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 17:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I checked out your sources. Blender? Hardly a decent source of death metal news. Sure, it's a source, but it's not a decent source of death metal news at all. I was not able to access the second source, but the first source(about:heavy metal) has conflicting statements on Meshuggahs music, and the fact that God Forbid is in a top metal list slightly discredits the news source. --205.144.32.250 16:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Why should the sources be death metal news oriented? Blender has a good reputation and is considered a good source of professional reviews by WikiProject Albums. The 2 metal sources, Metal Storm (I don't have any problem accessing it) and About:Heavy Metal (conflicting statements?) are respectable metal sources as far as I know. Please stop all the original research. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 17:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Sources

I looked up sources for the bands in the list, mainly from Encyclopaedia Metallum, to be assured the listed bands should be in the list and to comply with WP:LIST. I couldn't find any good sources for some bands (I just did a brief google search), so if someone can find some sources for these bands, please add them (if no sources can be found, after a while, the bands will be deleted from the list). I might do this for other music related lists in the near future. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 14:35, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I think we have a serious problem here. Why are people using Encyclopaedia Metallum as a legitimate source? Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastically useful cite, but much like Wikipedia is written by whoever fancies logging on and submitting stuff. We can't possibly use it, so all of the bands you seem to think you have sourced, are in fact not. Find other sources, or I'll have to flag the page. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll agree, it can't really be used as a trustworthy source since anyone can get on there to edit it.Felix-schade (talk) 02:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced bands

These bands have been added but I couldn't find sources stating they are technical death metal. I've put them here on the talk page (according to WP:VER: "Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references. If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, consider moving it to the talk page."). When good sources are found they can be put back in the list.

• Atheist
• Dying Fetus
• Hate Eternal (source states it's death metal, not technical...)
• Infernal Poetry
• Necrophagist

Atheist is technical metal as stated on their OFFICIAL webpage. Influences from jazz and prog rock are definately heard in their music (I read the definition on page, maybe it's wrong :P). Too much suggestion from encyclopaedia metallum?? Even wikipedia states it IS technical death metal band! so removing this band from list makes wikipedia a source of incoherent informations. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.229.23.182 (talk)

No problem, if you can find a good independent source for Atheïst, then you could add Atheïst+source to the list. I don’t care if whatever band is in the list, as long as one can verify its genre (in this case technical death metal). For the MA refs; they will have to be changed to more reliable ones. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 06:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe this independent source is enough http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=1&id=1259. Meshuggah on list is a big mistake, I would like to see a review that states Meshuggah is tech death on more metal specialized website, not Blender. MA didn't bother to define tech death, Wikipedia did. Let's stick to it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.229.23.182 (talk) 03:58, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

That Atheïst source is great, you could add it. And for Meshuggah: there are 3 sources for Meshuggah, 1 of them being the metal specialized Metal Storm and another is about.com:heavy metal. I think that's enough to prove it and they fit the description (unexpected, difficult to play, difficult to comprehend, written without distinct choruses, layered time signatures, dissonant or atonal guitar riffs, jazz fusion influences). Emmaneul ^(Talk) 08:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, let's leave Meshuggah here. I've no doubt it was technical band at some point of their career, maybe it fits more in the technical thrash subgenre, but it's only stated in Italian Wiki (I probably could some sources if necessary). But since there is no article about technical thrash in English Wiki we may leave it here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.229.23.182 (talk) 15:29, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

I haven't noticed it earlier. Vader is death metal (earlier thrash) it shouldn't be on the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.229.23.182 (talk) 15:45, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

Moved it to talk page. (and by the way, to avoid sinebot signing your comment you could end your post with 4 tildes) Emmaneul ^(Talk) 20:38, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

We have a problem with this page... specifically, almost none of the so-called notable bands are sourced correctly. metal Archives, BNR Metal, Metal Storm et al are not reliable sources; in fact I believe Metal Archives is specifically mentioned on oneof the guidelines pages as being a no-go. I'm going to go trhough the list and remove these citations and then me, or someone else should go and try to find sources we can actually use. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:29, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I have started by removing all citations to MA and removed bands that do not have their own Wikipedia pages. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:48, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

And now the BNR metal links have gone... this is not a site I've used before. Is there any reason to regard BNR as a reliable source as per Wikipedia policy? It appears to be just the website musings of a lone guy, but if someone can demonstrate he's a 'professional' then we could possibly use published work by him as a source. Otherwise it's much like citing someone's blog. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I don't know whether I find this amusing or not. Was looking for a source saying whether Dying Fetus are 'technical death metal' or not. Um, their official website bio describes them as 'death metal' and 'technical', but as the words aren't directly juxtaposed I'm not sure whether that counts :-). I'm just going to rock with 'it does'. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 14:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I really fail to see (or more accurately: hear) how dying fetus is a technical band. They play straight ahead rhythm, have no classical or jazz influence, have simple song structures... As the source you used is a primary source (a band is not objective toward it's genre) and not even stating they truly are TDM I think it may be removed. About the other sources: metal-archives and BNR metal are good sources used all around Wikiproject:Metal. Good sources considering how underground TDM is. TDM is a niche (but notable) genre and there are very few websites (let alone books) categorizing bands as TDM. I think it's an error to remove the refs. I'll put them back up. Kameejl ^(Talk) 18:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree here. I know the Dying Fetus name is thrown around a lot among fans of tech death, but they just aren't the same thing. Necrophagist and Dying Fetus? (Yeah, OK, they're on Summer Slaughter together—but deathcore bands do SS too.) I could see them as "death metal" or conceivably "brutal death metal" but never, ever "technical death metal." Ronocdh (talk) 03:59, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

NOTABILITY

Are Beneath The Massacre, Spawn of Possession, Psycroptic and Anata really notable enough to be considered "icons"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BlogBot1999 (talk • contribs) 20:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Who said they were iconic for tech death? for the genre, they are just notable bands (bands of the genre who have an article). −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪ ^kaiden 07:01, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

We could perhaps call them "paragons" instead? I.e. I don't really see the issue here. I think Circafucix's pragmatic approach is really the best way to ensure a solid Wikipedia entry. Ronocdh (talk) 04:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Opeth

Do Opeth really fit in here? In my opinion, they can barely even called a death metal band at all - of course, they do the death growls as well as some death metal riffs now and then, but draw just as much influence from jazz, 70s progressive and psychedelic rock, et cetera. But if we really need to put this band into a category, I'd (reluctantly) say progressive metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.124.169.91 (talk) 02:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

""Well, Opeth are pretty universally considered progressive death metal. (I realize Metal Archives has them listed as "Extreme Progressive Metal" but lastfm tagging http://www.last.fm/tag/progressive%20death%20metal is pretty clear.) The question is is progressive death metal going to pass Wikipedia's notability test? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronocdh (talk • contribs) 01:01, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Job For A Cowboy

Job For A Cowboy's debut album can be considered to be technical death metal, it reminds me of Death's album Human. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sepulwiki (talk • contribs) 19:30, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

How can Genesis be tech death? It's just plain (though more modern) death metal with a light hardcore influence. If a reviewer says they are then fine, otherwise it's original research. −₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪ ^kaiden 07:07, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

JFAC is deathcore.

After seeing all these deathcore bands, and the fact that meshuggah is on here, finally does point me to how unreliable wikipedia is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.61.112.228 (talk) 00:18, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

It's been said before, but JFAC are definitely JFAC—not technical death metal, and therefore do not belong on this page. Ronocdh (talk) 03:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

i beleive that Job For A Cowboy are now technical death metal band due to their new album,Ruination, the music critics say that it is tech. death metal. The band actually is admitting that they are. panicpack121

If many music critics state this, provide those sources. What you (or the band) "believe" is unimportant (see WP:OR). Blackmetalbaz (talk) 10:08, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Origins

I don't care what standard of sources we require for inclusion, but it seems an odd double standard to remove any reference to progressive or technical metal when the article is named technical death metal, with progressive death metal redirecting here and also mentioned in the lead as an equivalent name. Removing these as unsourced makes about as much sense as removing death metal as an origin, which the editor seems not to agree with. Mdwh (talk) 01:23, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Seems to me it would be wise to create a progressive death metal page and get rid of the redirect. Certainly would clear up the Opeth stuff on this talk page, and perhaps even the Meshuggah debate too. ;) Ronocdh (talk) 03:57, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Tech death/Prog death

Tech death metal and progressive death metal are 2 completely different beasts.. Listen to Decapitated, Beneath the Massacre and Cephalic Carnage, then listen to Opeth and Becoming the Archetype and you'll see what I mean.. This is a great article but it needs to be split in half for Technical death metal and Progressive death metal. ~Joe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.122.182.235 (talk) 18:52, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

The hard part is finding references that intelligently differentiate them as separate genres as it is now they are just looked at as one genre. I'm well aware of them being two separate genres but we need sources to make this so. I doubt we could even find the right references any time soon (if ever) to even have a separate article. 137.124.9.20 (talk) 21:58, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

The technical death metal genre is pretty new, thus there are not many reliable sources to backup the inclusion here. But the list is a bit strange, for example, Nile considered tech death while there is controversy as to Atheist being technical death metal or not. Seems that there must be a judgement based on a definition created here and not based on web sites. People will need to define a base canon for the genre and then starting to create the list from it. I know that is always possible that Wikipedia is misused and this list gets filled with deathcore. But then look at the list of bands not included in the TDM genre. At least two of them are but are out of it due to the lack of sources. Death obviously is pioner of the genre, however it is not in the list due to the requirement of sources telling that. The Faceless is clearly TDM but lacks sources. Theory In Practice as well.--Zlogdan (talk) 18:16, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, recently someone came by and cleaned up most of the bands where no reliable sources could be found. The "references" like MA that were originally there were put in place 'somewhat' temporarily until a reliable source could be found (since they were the only place where they were known as this). I'm pretty sure the tech death pioneers; Cynic, Atheist, Death and Pestilence have sources for them out there, somewhere. As far as my research goes, they only refer to them as "technical metal" at the instances I've found which is correct in a way, though they're "forgetting" to put "death" in there or "technical" for the death metal instances. In general, 'metal' sources are very hard to come by and is the main reason for the deletions and major article changes recently. And who would not feel stressed at this time because of it? Anyway, I'm not sure why it was required to just remove them in this way but I think it is for the best because they could have used sources anyway. I think I'll continue searching for sources and google news, and its original search, books (if any mention in heavy metal/extreme metal ones), etc are good places to start. FireCrystal (talk) 19:28, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I thought that progressive death metal and technical death metal were the same genre. Now I don't have a formed opinion. (JoaquimMetalhead (talk) 00:43, 26 May 2009 (UTC))

I saw it here now in the Necrophagist's official website:

"In 1999, NECROPHAGIST recorded their self-released, full-length debut 'Onset of Putrefaction.' Despite the limited number of copies that were made, 'Onset of Putrefaction' only solidified the growing reputation that NECROPHAGIST had started with their self-titled demo. Soon, NECROPHAGIST became the standard for progressive death metal. Uniting influences from different styles, including classical music, 'Onset of Putrefaction' showcased NECROPHAGIST’s demanding dexterity, inhuman brutality and fury."

And then, prog death and tech death are the same genre? (JoaquimMetalhead (talk) 00:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC))

This is a long-running argument, and I haven't seen a single reliable source produced to suggest either that they are the same or that they are different. Something from the official Necrophagist website is obviously not a reliable source. Until something is produced I'm going to err on the side of removing anything not reliably sourced with the words "technical death metal" as that is fairly uncontroversial. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 11:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Why do we need a source to tell us that they are different? Listen to them. You aren't going to find a reliable source that says "Yup, they are different." Should Black Metal and Death Metal be in the same article because there is no source that says they are different? Of course not. Mason092 (talk) 19:39, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Removed band list

I decided to leave bands here that were initially removed to keep here for later reference. FireCrystal (talk) 20:42, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

The same source used to backup Arsis inclusion could be used to add Death as well.--Zlogdan (talk) 12:04, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

No, it can't. Can you find me the part where it states that death Are tech death? No? just read the article. The only statement made is that Death was influential to tech death bands, which is a big difference from being a tech death band. 75.159.30.121 (talk) 02:39, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

How can you find a definite source that states they are technical death metal? Just listen to them and decide.Mason092 (talk) 19:41, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

There are sources out there but they are kind of thin and will take awhile to find. And just determining their genre by listening to them is original research and is not allowed on Wikipedia. FireCrystal (talk) 21:55, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Bands

Bands that were removed from the list, though will be incorporated back into the article once sources for them can be found:

• Aletheian
• Akercocke
• Anata
• Becoming the Archetype
• Carcariass
• Cephalic Carnage
• Coprofago
• Demilich
• Devolved
• Extol
• The Faceless
• Hacride
• Iniquity
• Lethargy
• Lykathé
• Polluted Inheritance
• Sympathy
• Textures
• Theory in Practice
• Visceral Bleeding

Progressive metal as an origin

how can it possibly not be?

where 'progressive metal' is 'progressive rock' AND 'heavy metal'

therefore 'progressive death metal' is 'progressive metal' AND 'death metal'

in my opinion 'technical death metal' is just 'death metal' that are more technical due to improved musicians, but as 'progressive death metal' redirects here surely it must either be kept, or a seperate article created. i would create it, but some a-hole will probs delete it!

XTomScottx (talk) 09:24, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

There was a "progressive death metal" page at one point, although I may be wrong. You should feel free to create one if and only if you can find reliable sources talking about "progressive death metal" as a separate subgenre; we can't use editors' opinions or original research. Sourcing is a problem for this page as well, obviously. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 09:25, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

One, this is the page for TECHNICAL death metal, not progressive death metal. This are two different things. Tech Death has bands like Suffocation and Cannibal corpse, who are in no way progressive. Progressive death metal is bands like Opeth and edge of Sanity. And since no one can find a source that states prog metal as an influence to the ENTIRE genre (as opposed to a few bands) it should be removed like all OR. 75.158.57.82 (talk) 06:19, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Nocturnus

I was wondering why Nocturnus isn't up on this list. Afaik, Nocturnus was one of the first tech death metal bands —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.205.216.214 (talk) 00:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)