Talk:Doris Day

Cite Sources

Need a source cite on this statement about finances after Melcher died:

She was forced to do a television series to pay off his debts.

The source I have (Leonard Maltin bio) says that her return to financial health was brought about by a favorable settlement from her former attorney as a result of a legal malpractice/breach of fiduciary duty suit.

Two new bio's of Doris Day that may be useful for citations. Below is a link to the radio show where I heard and read online about them: http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopate/episodes/2007/07/26/segments/82743

This too, "It still remains unresolved whether Melcher worked in collusion with Rosenthal to pillage her vast earnings, or was himself duped." Who ever said that this was an issue? It's been well recognized that her son was devoted to her. Sounds like weasel words to me. Am I alone? MagnoliaSouth ^(talk) 23:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

no, you're not. I think it should be removed. It sounds like conjecture and the way it's written it's hard to tell if the conjecture is being made in the documentary which is given as the source for the sentence that follows it, or whether it was conjecture on the part of the editor who added this information. In either case, it reads as though Wikipedia is making the conjecture, and this is not acceptable. Wikipedia does not conjecture or offer opinions, so if the opinion is not attributed to someone and a reliable source given to support that particular comment, it should not be used. WP:BLP is also an important consideration. We seem to be creating innuendo and suspicion without providing sufficient justification for our stance. Rossrs (talk) 00:00, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Gay Icon Project

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 20:24, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC).

The song Que Sera Sera is Spanish for What will be will be, and not French as reported in the article

I think this page should be improved, as it jumps too fast from going to Hollywood to suddenly becoming a star. It doesn't explain about her early singing career and jumps to fame.

re Marriages

Doris Day is listed as having been married five times, the final time to a man listed as a busboy named Otis Washington who later changed his name to Otis Day and began a recording career. According to the posting the marriage ended due to his touring schedule and his inability to see to Doris's "needs". Otis Day is an actor named DeWayne Jessie who now tours under the name Otis Day due to the popularity of the character he portrayed in the film "Animal House".

This item needs a legitimate source citation. The footnote for this item (#3) - an interview with Day in a January 1996 interview in "OK! Magazine" - only mentions a fourth marriage to restaurant owner Barry Comden. And it specifically states that "there has been no sign of another husband" since that fourth marriage. A Google search only brings up the same Wikipedia source. So this item should be considered unsubstantiated until properly sourced. Titan69 22:23, 30 April 2007 (UTC)Titan69

It's bogus. There's nothing that I've found on the web that backs it up. I suspect that the same person has been entering it, but has been entering it from various ip addresses. They have been very persistent; I've counted at least 14 reverts of the Otis Washington busboy paragraph in the last 5 weeks. A cite has been requested several times, which has been ignored. I consider it vandalism. It's not amusing any more. Is there anything more we can do about it? Leon7 18:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think that the whole thing is rather gay! I'll bet that even Doris is having a chuckle over this one.

German-American

While she does have german ancestory, it does not seem approriate to call her German-American. As mentioned later, it was her grandparents who immigrated, at some point its time to stop prefixing the German. If the article played up the importance of the distinction I would agree with including it there, but other than the information about her grandparents there is nothing to indicate her ancestory played a paticularly important role in her life. And her ancestory is sufficiantly detailed with the grandparents info Monty845 12:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Doris Day's birthdate

Ms. Day is known to have been born on 4/3/22. My source is a close friend of one of her former personal secretaries. Many sources list her correct birthdate, one of which is http://www.topsynergy.com/famous/Doris_Day.asp .

Celebrities going by a different birth year doesn't seem so unusual to me. In this case, Ms. Day using a more recent birth year may have very well taken place. Since we have a dispute, I would suggest that you come up with a more authoritative and verifiable source. Although well intentioned, citing a source such as your close friend is not up to WP standards. The web seems to be quite evenly divided between the 2 dates, with a slight bias toward 1924. I would suggest finding and citing a book or magazine article that has researched 1922 vs. 1924 to back you up. In the mean time, let's keep it the way it has traditionally been for years at WP and elsewhere. Leon7 23:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Leon,

The Internet source that I cited gave the minute and hour of her birth, which suggests that they researched it. I have not seen any article on "1922 vs. 1924" but it is known that she was born in 1922. The sources that list 1924 are just perpetuating the error. You stated that the Internet sources are evenly divided between 1922 and 1924. I believe this has occurred in recent years. Why do you think some sources would start listing 1922? They had to have a reason for doing so. She was born in 1922; insiders know that and now others are starting to accept it. Sorry for the "dispute" but she was born in 1922.

TPR

Given that the purpose of that website is an astrological chart, it does not necessarily mean that they researched her date of birth using traditionally accepted methods. They provide no source for their information. It may be that they used the technique of Rectification, using the known facts of her life to deduce her date and time of birth, and concluded that 1922 was a much more likely candidate than 1924. That may be fine for astrologers, but it doesn't hold water for mainline historical researchers. -- JackofOz 04:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I was informed a few minutes ago (by a Doris Day insider to whom I sent an e-mail) that the book about her coming out next June will give 1922 as her birth year. (Another book about her will be out in October.) She was born in 1922; there is no doubt about it.

In your mind, maybe. Let's wait for the books and see what they say. -- JackofOz

05:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what the book that is coming out in October will say regarding her birth year. That book is written by one of Doris's former personal secretaries and if I were her I would probably not mention her birth year at all out of respect for her former employer. I was told that the book that is coming out next year will give 1922 as her birth year.

I am not merely expressing an opinion when I state that her birth year is 1922. The following quote is taken from the e-mail I received last night from a woman who wrote the Foreword for the book that is coming out in October: "I am happy to tell you that it is 1922!! That is just one of the shocks that fans will find out when they read David's book due out next June. I've known this since the 1970s!!"

As for my credibility, I am the author of four books and my books are highly regarded. I don't make things up.

• • Other sources that list her birth year correctly as 1922 include the

Songwriters Hall of Fame http://www.songwritershalloffame.org/artist_bio.asp?artistId=72 and the following source: http://www.hastingsentertainment.com/catalog/artist/artist.asp?Ctrb_Id=33344925 . IMDB is not a reliable source of information as I have corrected a few errors for them over the years. For example, they had Vera-Ellen listed at 5-0. Anyone who knows anything at all about her knows that was an obvious error. So I informed them that she was 5-4 and they made the correction.

Nobody is arguing against your personal credibility, and nobody has suggested you're making anything up. That is not the issue. Wikipedia works by citing published reputable sources of information, not by accepting the claims of anonymous persons who assert that they have greater knowledge than we already have. If the book that's coming out in October addresses the issue of her birthdate, it will need to say something rather more substantial than, say, "Doris once told me she was born in 1922". As for the sources that already say she was born in 1922, I have added a note in the article acknowledging that sources differ on the matter. Please do not revert this until it can be incontrovertibly established that 1922 is the correct year. On a side issue, can anyone tell me why we have 2 infoboxes, containing overlapping details? -- JackofOz 05:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

This question will not be settled by citing web sites, since they're so divided. You're going to have to cite a book or an article that shows research on 1922 vs. 1924. In the mean time, I quote to you from Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons: "Editors must take particular care adding biographical material about a living person to any Wikipedia page", and from Wikipedia:Verifiability: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed". You may have to wait for the book. Leon7 05:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. A birth certificate would settle the issue once and for all, regardless of what any secondary source may say. -- JackofOz 05:59, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Look, no one (I hope)will ever make a big issue of "1922 vs. 1924" in a book or article. To do so would be to insult Ms. Day. The correction should be made quietly and with little fanfare. We don't know how the error started. One conjecture is that Warner Brothers confused her birthday with that of Marlon Brando, who was born on 4/3/24. Perhaps she tried to correct the error when she first saw it. We don't know. Obviously if the error wasn't corrected quickly, then it would be difficult to correct it years later without the people involved losing face.

It shouldn't be necessary to produce a birth certificate to convince the two of you that she was born in 1922. I have cited sources that I assume are reputable, which give 1922 as her birth year. They didn't pick 1922 out of the thin air; they must have had a reason for stating that year. There is a well-known magazine that would have a lot to say about this if they dug into their files of many years ago but I am not going to go into that. As I said, the change should be made with little fanfare.

I don't think the two of you would accept 1922 if you saw it in a book and/or were told 1922 is the correct year by people who knew her well at one time. I don't have time for this foolishness. Do you want me to recruit a team of people who know the correct year to "stand guard" here and change the year back to the correct year every time one of you changes it to the wrong year? Don't tempt me.

Look, I think you're entirely missing the point here. It's not about whether I or any other Wikipedia editor personally believes it's one date or the other, or whether we personally believe your claims or not. I am perfectly willing to believe that Doris Day was born in 1922 - but my personal beliefs or anyone else's don't count around here. Whether 1924 or 1922 is the true year is not the fundamental question - it's whether either date is verifiable. Please read Wikipedia:Verifiability for a more detailed discussion of this principle.

If there weren't rules about these matters, a person could add all manner of information (whether true or not) to the article and it would not be questioned. That is, until someone else came along and made equally credible-sounding claims that she was born in 1923, 1925, 1921 or whenever, or that she was descended from Henry VIII and Rasputin. Then there'd be an edit war, and the whole process would very quickly disintegrate. Wikipedia relies for its credibility - hence its very survival - on only using reputable published sources. Where reputable sources disagree on important details, we should note that fact. I've already acknowledged, in the note I added to the article earlier today, that certain sources do indeed say 1922. But the great majority of sources still say 1924, and only a small minority say 1922. This minority includes the ones you refer to above. You "assume they're reputable" - does that mean you assume the vast majority of other sources, that say 1924, are not reputable? Why choose the tiny minority over the great majority? The latter also "didn't pick 1924 out of thin air; they must have had a reason for stating that year". And do the ones who prefer 1922 say why they do so? What is the source of their information? You say you have inside knowledge, from personal emails, friendships with certain people who know Doris Day, etc. Surely you must understand that, with the best will in the world, we can give no status to such claims - I'm not for a moment saying you're lying, but after all you're just an anonymous voice who, for all we know, could be making this up. Do you think that any reputable encyclopedia would accept contributions from an anonymous person whose credentials were whatever he/she said they were? Hardly. Using Wikipedia's principles, which govern everything that goes on here, there is not yet a case to change the date to 1922. Maybe the balance will change down the track when - and if - major sources start to change their dates from 1924 to 1922 (after which a whole swag of minor sources would follow suit). Then, 1922 would get a look in. But not till then. -- JackofOz 10:15, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I think JackofOz is quite right here in saying that the key is verifiability. It's one of the cornerstones on which Wikipedia is built, and without it anyone could add anything to any article and nobody could challenge it. As part of this community's standard procedure, we place great importance on verification in the knowledge that we will therefore get it right most of the time, but obviously not every time. We also acknowledge that if two or more sources contradict each other, we can not simply pick the one we like best or the one that is most persuasive, and run with it. This situation has been dealt with, in some other articles, in the same manner that JackofOz has suggested. Refer to Norma Shearer for a very basic example, and Joan Crawford and Paulette Goddard for examples where census records have been used to reason which of several contradictory sources is likely to be most accurate. (And even with the census records, the other sources have not been rejected out of hand.) The bottom line is that there are reliable sources for both 1922 and 1924 - but at least one of these dates must be wrong. And wouldn't it be funny if it was actually 1923? Rossrs 12:26, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

• • • The "verifiability, not truth" idea is practically a contradiction in terms because reliable sources (that are to contribute the "verifiability") should contain truth. The sources that erroneously list 1924 are not all independent sources of information, as sources of course copy dates and other information from other sources. Certainly the same will likely happen as more sources begin listing 1922 but the first one or two sources to do so obviously must have had a reason for listing 1922. If a source is going to break from tradition and list conflicting information, then it stands to reason that they would check their info carefully as they should expect people to ask them why they are listing 1922 instead of 1924.

If Wikipedia is to attain the stature of any prominent encyclopedia, then truth must be published, not errors that are perpetuated. The words of anyone who knows/knew Doris Day obviously should receive greater weight than sources like IMDB that are known to contain errors, one of which I mentioned previously.

There are various fans who refuse to believe that Doris Day was born in 1922 instead of 1924 and will turn a deaf ear to any substantive arguments that favor 1922. She was born in 1922, not 1924 (or 1923, Rossrs).

The footnote indicated at the beginning of the article alerts readers, without even reading the footnote, that 1924 is not well-accepted. So I suppose that is a suitable compromise, but the number of sources that list 1924 versus the number of sources that list 1922 is not an indicator of which year is correct. (And it appears as though more sources are beginning to list 1922.)

I am certainly not trying to denigrate her in any way. I corresponded with her in 1995 (when I was residing in Australia, Oz and Rossrs) and I have sent her a birthday card and/or Christmas card almost every year since then. Discovering that she was born in 1922 in no way detracts from her extremely impressive body of work, both on and off the stage. However, information about her or any other very public figure in any media form should be based on truth.***

If the sites that changed from 1924 to 1922 "checked their information carefully" - and I'm not saying they didn't - can you tell us where they did their checking? What documents or other sources did they use to become persuaded that 1922 was the true year? None of the ones I've seen reveal their sources. True, none of the ones that say 1924 reveal their sources either. But we're talking about changing something that most people believe to something that relatively few people believe, so the burden of proof is on the ones advocating the change. Everything you've said so far is, with respect, an assertion based on your claimed association with Doris Day, and an assumption that some unspecified checking must have been done. Is that good enough for proof? I think not. We need to see proof. Think of it like this - it is generally believed that John F Kennedy was born on 29 May 1917; if I asserted that I had some sort of association with him and he told me that he was really born on 29 April 1917, would that qualify me to go around changing the records of his birth in biographies, encyclopedias, etc? Of course not. If I wrote a book about JFK saying he was born in April, would any publisher take me seriously? Of course not. Now, say some record was unearthed that demonstrated he really was born in April, and the long-believed May birth date could be explained, then biographers and publishers might sit up and take note. Until then, they'd laugh at me. I'm not laughing at you, but you must understand how these things work. -- JackofOz 06:14, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" - which is the opening sentence on Wikipedia's verifiability policy (WP:V). It's worth reading, and as I mentioned before, it's not designed to be 100% above reproach, but it does allow Wikipedia to function with integrity, in most circumstances. I think we could quite easily talk around in circles here, but as you indicated in your previous message, a compromise is suitable, and sometimes that's the best that can be achieved. I have no reason to doubt that you have been in contact with Doris Day - likewise I have no reason to accept this on your word alone. I mean you no disrespect, but I don't know you any more than you know me, so your assertions shouldn't have any more weight than mine, or anyone else's. There must be a reason - and an original source - for both the 1922 birthdate and the 1924 birthdate. The problem is that we don't know what it is, so we can not examine it. Until we can find something that substantially "proves" (as close as possible anyhow) one year or the other, we should just accept that a compromise is the most appropriate action. I was only half joking about the 1923 year, by the way. A search of 1930 census records shows that that there was no "Doris M. Kappelhoff" but there was a "Doris M. Koppelhoff" living in Ohio at the time and she was born in "abt 1923". [1] Whether this is our "Doris" or an entirely different "Doris", I do not know, but it's not exactly a common name even allowing that the spelling is off. My point is that even the most supposedly reliable of sources can be somewhat muddy. All we can do is our best. Rossrs 07:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• • • Rossrs: Okay, since you brought up the 1930 census, look at

http://www.famousroots.com/2007/03/doris-day-in-1930-census.html That is obviously "our Doris" as it even says so at the top!! The names are simply messed up by some sloppy person as notice that her father's name is even spelled differently from her mother's name. It is well known that Doris's mother was named Alma and that she had a brother, so this is obviously Doris Day. Notice that she was 7 years old in 1930. She could not have been that age in 1930 if she were born in 1924! Unfortunately, if you click on the link, you see a different set of information, which shows that the person who contributed this couldn't get anything right!!!

The points that all of you are making are well-taken, but even with the errors, this does "suggest" that she was born in 1922. Or perhaps she was really born in 1928 as this source http://www.plexoft.com/cgi-bin/D.cgi states. Of course I say that with tongue in cheek. There are more than a few sources that cite 1922; I saw 6 or 7 without even trying to do an exhaustive search.

If someone who worked for Doris came here with the intention of trying to settle this, I suspect that all of you would not believe her unless she could post a copy of Doris's birth certificate. Fortunately Doris doesn't use a computer so she won't see all of this unless somebody unwisely mails her a copy. I know how she feels about the age issue from speaking to someone in California about it.***

You're still trying to convince us, as if we somehow held the only set of keys to the article. This is a waste of your time. What we believe is entirely irrelevant to this whole discussion. -- JackofOz 10:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Well, it is one of you who kept changing the year back to the incorrect 1924 every time that I changed it to the correct 1922.

One more time - did you actually read what we said above? Continuing to merely assert that she was born in 1922 - without any proof - is a dead end. What you, I, or anyone happens to privately believe - and what Wikipedia will accept - are two different things. 1922 may ultimately be shown to be correct, but as of now it's not verifiable. If you want to change that situation, then the burden is on you to come up with some verifiable evidence. And that means something of a documentary nature that any of the million-odd Wikipedia editors can examine, not just your claim that someone closely connected to her once told you this is so. Anyone can make such claims - but can they substantiate them? How many more ways do you need me to explain this? (Sorry if I seem a little frustrated; that's because I'm, well, a little frustrated.) -- JackofOz 04:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• • • JackofOz: I have not altered the article after the footnote was added. Let me ask you a few questions. Was 1924 listed as her birth year here after someone produced a copy of her birth certificate? Or was it listed simply because various sources have used that as her birth year? I think we know the answers to those questions. My knowledge of the controversy surrounding her age extends well beyond "what somebody told me". Within the next year or two there will probably be general acceptance, more or less, of 1922 as her birth year as books are published that list that birth year. I will let those authors convince you and the Wikipedia editors of the date.***

I am absolutely willing to be convinced - "que sera sera". So, let's wait for the evidence. No point discussing this any further until then. It's going nowhere. Bye. -- JackofOz 23:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with it being proved that the birthdate was wrong all these years, but I find it difficult to believe that an 18 year old woman about to go out on the road with a band (and get married soon thereafter) would lie about her age and claim to be 16, since such a claim would only make life more difficult for her. Ann Miller was 13 when she made her film debut and lied about her age to appear older. It boggles the mind to think that Doris Day wanted people to think she was still underage. Just my two cents.Rarmin (talk) 19:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

As an addendum to my comments above, I just found a newspaper article in the Long Beach Press-Telegram of April 1, 1951 written by columnist Gene Handsaker (it appeared in other papers as well) in which he interviews Doris Day and states: "The singing actress, born Doris Kappelhoff in Cincinnati, will be 29 this April 3," which make her birthyear 1922. All of the other newspaper articles around that date list her birthyear as 1924 as per her press release. Maybe Handsaker got it from Doris herself? Or it's a typo. Of course, one article can't be taken as gospel but it is interesting... I also found out that the accident that broke her leg was on October 13, 1937 in Hamilton, Ohio, which would have made her 13 or 15. Considering that she was planning to move to Hollywood two weeks later with professional prospects, the latter age does seem more likely. Oh, well. Rarmin (talk) 23:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

More contradictions -- the entry says she started singing professionally at 17. Since she first sang under the name Doris Day in 1939, that means she was born in 1922. If she was born in 1924, it should say 15. I'm sure all of this will be resolved within the next month or so.Rarmin (talk) 16:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

1922 is the correct year. (92.12.76.4 (talk) 11:54, 22 July 2008 (UTC))

I'm glad that some of you have picked up the ball regarding the 1922 vs. 1924 debate and provided evidence that the correct year is 1922, which I tried to point out is the correct year. TPRyan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.211.37.170 (talk) 05:24, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

From Ancestry.com, 1930 U.S. Federal Census taken April 10, 1930:

You have saved this record to My Ancestry (Shoebox). You have saved this record to My Ancestry (People I'm Looking For). This record has been added to your shoebox. 1930 United States Federal Census about Doris M Koppalhoff Name: Doris M Koppalhoff [Doris Kappelhoff] Home in 1930: Cincinnati, Hamilton, Ohio Age: 7 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1923 Relation to Head of House: Daughter Father's Name: William J Mother's Name: Alma Race: White Occupation:

Education:

Military service:

Rent/home value:

Age at first marriage:

Parents' birthplace:

View Image Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age William J Roppalhoff 37 Alma Koppalhoff 34 Paul A Koppalhoff 10 Doris M Koppalhoff 7 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stutzey (talk • contribs) 14:33, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

````Stutzey —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stutzey (talk • contribs) 14:35, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Athletic

{{editprotected}} Hi, I'm working on the Athlete disambiguation page, and I noticed that there's a link in this page, when you'r talking about Doris' third husband, and you say he was "athletic". I think you're using that word as "healthy", not necessarily a sportsperson, so I think you should remove the link. --PeterCantropus 00:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Protection is no longer active; feel free to edit the article. Cheers. --MZMcBride 13:06, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

is doris day still alive?

i cant' find out if she is or not. thanks,

sariwynn@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.193.189.205 (talk) 04:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a stupid question. Of course she is still alive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.134.127.100 (talk) 18:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

And that's quite rude..and spineless as well, since you tossed out "stupid" without signing a name. GBrady (talk) 16:20, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Citations & References

See Wikipedia:Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the <ref(erences/)> tags Nhl4hamilton (talk) 04:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

needs photo

There is another photo of Doris Day at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Doris_Day.jpg DaveMenninger (talk) 15:43, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Mary Ann(e)

IMDb ( check http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000013/ ) spells her second name Ann, without the 'e', which according to the "umpteen-times-reverification" policy of the site should be the correct spelling. (BTW IMDb also states 1922 as her birth year, so you guys appear to be correct!) -andy 92.229.182.163 (talk) 21:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Best-Loved

That Doris Day is one of America's best-loved entertainers is something I wrote some time ago, and it was removed. I put it back, and I would wager it will be removed again. But I'll say this: There is a reason that I never write or edit anything, say, on the topic of archaeology. Or the Portugese language. Or podiatry. I know nothing about them. And anyone who isn't aware of the love Doris Day is on the receiving end from her many admirers on many continents over several decades does not know the essence of Doris Day and what she means to the public.

There have been performers who were not especially good-looking (Jimmy Durante), svelte (Kate Smith), glib (Joe Louis), suave (Danny Kaye), demure (Martha Raye) nice in real life (Bob Hope, Lucille Ball, Sinatra), or great talents (Dinah Shore). But the pubic loved them. To deny it, justifying, "There is no resource book or official list of who is loved and who isn't," doesn't cut it. For whatever reason(s), there are certain performers the vast public takes to its heart. Doris Day is one of them. Professor Von Pie 15:41, 01 December 08 (UTC)

Was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.13.223.118 (talk) 21:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I'll say it again more precisely. Whoever removed that Doris Day is one of American's best-loved entertainers knows zilch, nada, zero, bupkiss, nothing on the topic of Doris Day, and therefore should not loiter/tamper here. I wouldn't even put it back because I know that further vandalism will occur, certainly not for the sake of accuracy or truth. Professor Von Pie 17:08, 07 March 09 (UTC)

I'll say it more clearly. What does or does not belong in an encyclopedia article has nothing to do with your viewpoint of the subject. It also is not about truth, but verifiability. Truth, which is quite often a factor of perspective, is not always fact. I'm glad you think Doris Day is one of the most beloved entertainers of all time. She might even be, but this is not a fanpage. It is an encyclopedia article. Here, you must provide verified, third-party sources which would support your contention. Removing it from the article is not vandalism in any way. It is the removal of opinion, which may be valid to you, but your personal opinion doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article. Wildhartlivie (talk) 02:17, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Note: The previous two posts have been removed from the talk page because they contained personal attacks and contentious statements in violation of Wikipedia policy. It is not censorship to remove personal attacks. The posts were in response to the removal of a POV statement that Day is one of America's best-loved entertainers. Perhaps she is, perhaps she is not, however the only circumstance under which such a statement can be included in the article is if it a quote or paraphrased from a reliable third party source. The statement did not have that. The last post that has been removed was a response to my having removed a comment containing personal attacks by the above the poster who opened this section. The poster does not seem to be able to distinguish between a point of view statement and a verified and cited fact. The rightful removal of such a statement - by an editor other than myself - has prompted a series of rants with inappropriate attacks. To remove POV statements in an article does not constitute meddling, it is supported by Wikipedia policy. Wildhartlivie (talk) 18:22, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

The truth has been successfully redacted and kept out of the article. Anything more

that you censor- this sentence for example- is pointless overkill. Professor Von Pie 12:42, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

To say that Doris is one of America's best-loved entertainers requires a whole host of qualifiers. This article could be around for 100 years, 200 years, 1000 years. Will Doris still be one of America's best-loved entertainers then? Will anyone in the 22nd, 23rd, or 31st century who is not a historian even know who she is? You could say that Doris Day is one of America's best-loved entertainers for a certain percentage of Americans of from the time period of World War II through the mid-1960s, most of whom are of a proscribed ethnic background and economic status. That might be true, and more accurate, but still has little place in an encyclopedia article. Again, the object is verfiability, and not expressions of personal interest in the subject. A better way to demonstrate Ms. Day's popularity for a given time period would be to link with proof, such as figures on box-office receipts for movies starring Day, record sales, television ratings, and other verifiable statistics, for instance. Best-loved? Sorry, such statements will be deleted every time, and rightly so.PJtP (talk) 23:18, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Ancestry

At footnote 6 reference, I do not see any Dutch ancestry or reference to the Netherlands. However, St. Gallen, birthplace of her ancestor Johannes Georg Zimmerman, is located in the northeastern part of Switzerland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael ohearn (talk • contribs) 04:49, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

"Von" Kappelhoff?

Why give her name as "von" Kappelhoff? There is no indication anywhere that it is other than merely Kappelhoff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.16.252.144 (talk) 13:54, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Resolution of lawsuit

I was aware of the travesty of the handling of Doris Day's finances and her coercion, for lack of a better word, into television. I also knew she had won a major settlement but had no idea how long the issue dragged out into the courts. I had thought the issue was resolved in the mid-'70s and that that had been long enough. So my question: was it the late '80s before she ever started to receive any of that settlement? Were the terms of the settlement the same as the terms of the initial decision, 24 annual payments? After all those costs he incurred in fighting it for two decades, did he have anything left to pay her with? I don't want to pry into the woman's personal business, but as it's given such wonderful (and appropriate) coverage here, it seems like there should be some denouement, if that information is available. Abrazame (talk) 20:40, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

In popular culture

This section needs trimming badly. Can't we just say Doris is mentioned in "this song", "that song" and "this other song". Infringing copyright by reproducing lyrics unnecessarily aside, I don't see any value in this. It does not increase understanding of the subject. I'll leave this for now and see if anyone comments. Rossrs (talk) 00:16, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I object to that section being trimmed badly! Seriously though, I was under the impression that it's acceptable within both Wiki guidelines and copyright law to quote a couplet. The understanding of the subject by the respective authors is, I think, the point of any popular culture section. It's significant not only that so many musicians were taken with her as a reference but in how many contexts (not to mention how popular some of them were and how many people heard those songs at the time or since), yet without the line to show those varied contexts, there is nothing—or, worse, the implication of like context—connoted by simply mentioning she was name-checked in "this song, that song and this other song".

The Grease lines were not a part of the section when I edited it many months ago (or so it seems), and purely from a style standpoint of course there's a problem with the way they're presented differently from the other lyrics. One could argue that the first section is about Sandra Dee and not Day, yet it does set the tone for what might otherwise be vague ("come across" isn't a phrase I'm familiar with, but it's obvious in context of the previous "virginity/legally wed" line). If this instance does cross over the line into an excessive quotation from a percentage standpoint, perhaps we could supplant the first verse there with an introductory contextual statement about chastity before marriage? If we could succinctly set the stage there in a way that's not going to hook some tag-happy editor wanting a ref, I'd support that.

Finally, I fail to see what the Canadian election stunt has to do with her; clearly it was the gentleman's name that precipitated the association, and not anything unique to Ms. Day. I'd support removing that "News" section entirely.

As to the rest, there's always a way looking at a few sentences with a fresh set of eyes you can shave a word or two off by rephrasing something; if you or another editor can improve the flow without removing the context and substance, that's great. Abrazame (talk) 02:00, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, first of all, I have removed the insertion of lyrics from Grease three times in as many days. Every time I have removed the content added by one editor, I have noted it is a violation of copyright law, but that is being ignored. The editor has been warned. Even so, I'm not crazy about much of the content in this section and would greatly like to see it trimmed to relevant mentions, if not removed altogether. Wildhartlivie (talk) 02:08, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I think it's kind of trivial. "Wake Me Up Before You Go Go" is not about Doris Day. Her name is mentioned once, it vaguely conveys brightness/happiness etc and it rhymes with "ay". "The sun" is also mentioned with equal weight, and I hope the article sun doesn't have an "In popular culture" section saying it's mentioned in a Wham! song. "We Didn't Start the Fire" lists a whole lot of notable people. All are essentially name checked and that's about it. The song is not about any of them, and it doesn't pay tribute to any one them. Compare "Candle in the Wind" which is all about Marilyn Monroe and her name checking in "We Didn't Start the Fire". There's a gulf of difference in relevance. I believe this type of section is created with the best of intentions, but it encourages a range of references without distinguishing between the significant and the insignificant. If someone wrote a song about Doris Day and it had some kind of cultural impact - even minimal - I wouldn't object to its discussion, in fact, I would most likely encourage it. Copyright is a major concern, and for someone to be adding the lyrics to the Grease song three times is unacceptable. It is OK under our interpretation of fair use laws to quote sparingly from copyrighted works. That includes song lyrics, and should be limited to the most relevant, and then using only as much of the quotation as is needed to convey the message. That's the only song where something substantial is said about Day, and even it's fairly weak. One of the musicians who referenced her didn't even bother checking to see if she was still alive before he welcomed her to heaven, so that's a wonderfully sincere tribute. It's not exactly "American Pie". I just don't see any value in the level of depth that is accorded to this type of reference, any more than listing each time a celebrity is mentioned in Family Guy or The Simpsons. It's just a mention for minor effect but it's not the point of the project. Rossrs (talk) 04:41, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for brightening my Sunday evening with a good laugh about the sun. An actress acts. A singer sings. But that alone doesn't get you in an encyclopedia. I think the point of celebrity is in large part (if not entirely) about the impact one has on popular culture. Arguably there is no correlative point to the sun, "merely" a cause and an effect. (Spiritually, religiously I might not agree with that assessment, but I think most people would say it's scientifically sound.) Tongue in cheek, I'd point out that in the Wham! song, the sun is a given, the thing that has an effect is the subject of the song, who is being compared in that effect to...Doris Day. I mean, the sun "comes up" every morning, but most people who go around singing and dancing about it are doing so because they've got a special someone. So, no, I don't think the sun is as important as Day to the song. I think when we start suggesting that a word was used only because it rhymes with another word, we're kind of reaching beyond our jobs as editors and into the realm of literary critic. Think of all the songs that use words rhyming with "ay" that are not the name of the actress in question. I needn't tell you it is a popular vowel sound. By your logic there should be tens of thousands, yet we're only here addressing half a dozen. Even if George Michael were to admit he cavalierly threw "Doris Day" in there simply because the syllables fit and he wasn't ready to admit to preferring the likes of "Johnny Ray", the name was what it was and who can say the song wasn't more charming or popular itself because of it.

From your point about Monroe, I'm wondering if perhaps the problem drawing your tag-team here is more one with popular culture sections in general. Indeed a tribute entirely about Marilyn Monroe (at least until Elton John decided he'd declare the whole thing was instead about Princess Diana, which is when the song really made its multi-million selling cultural impact) is more notable than a song that "simply" mentions Monroe, not unlike a one-woman show featuring Monroe could be said to be more notable to her bio than a show in which Monroe was part of an ensemble cast or even a bit player. Similarly, a major blockbuster that becomes a classic over the decades is different than a small independent film that barely made it to DVD. Nevertheless, all those roles might well be noted with equal weight in a filmography table, mightn't they? Sure, we might well note those differences in degree in a "notes" section, but they wouldn't be indicated by size or boldness of text, and if there wasn't a huge resume, they wouldn't be omitted entirely. As to a direct comparison between Monroe and Day, that does seem to be the point of Joel's song: that in his estimation, they were equals. I mean, think about that for a moment before writing it off. That's clearly part of his point. To suggest it's mere name-checking, as if yet one more rapper said "Courvoisier" or "Cristal" or "Bentley", seems to entirely miss the impact Joel intended.

If every celebrity had half a dozen songs that named them, perhaps that would make such a thing less notable for everyone. And if a single celebrity has a hundred songs named after them, indeed we would need to cull the most notable several to make the point. (Similarly, if a show like Family Guy name-checks celebrities in every episode, it would seem to nullify the notability of any single mention.) But I don't see what the problem is with showing that Day's lingering recollection in popular culture has been such as it is, two number-one songs and a number-one album all by major artists, as well as one of the most successful musicals of all time. You're the one putting forth the concept of tribute; this section is about popular culture impact, which is a different thing entirely. So why exactly are you trying to diminish that Day had this impact? Abrazame (talk) 05:59, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I'm not. I accept that Day had an impact on popular culture. What I am trying to say is that in each example given, Day is a side-reference and the weight given to each side-reference seems to place more relevance to Day, than I believe exists. I was joking about the sun, and I'm glad you took it that way, and I didn't think about Johnny Ray (or Fay Wray, Danny Kaye or Marvin Gaye until now). "We Didn't Start the Fire" places Doris Day into an historical context along with a number of other people, but if it's right to add it to Doris Day's article, it should follow that it's right to add it to the articles of the other actors/actresses/singers that are mentioned. I get your point about Joel naming specific people for their individual impact, but even so, he offers nothing more than a name. Except - and you're quite correct - placing her name next to the others does give it context. I think the tendency to reference celebrities in music, is growing. You mention rap and it's a major culprit. I guess the other side of the coin, for me at least, is that given Doris Day's long career and high degree of notability, why are the references to her of a passing nature? You're right to say I was wrong about using the word "tribute". "Tribute" isn't even the right word to fit what I was trying to say. I was thinking of relevance or significance. Take "Bette Davis Eyes" for example. Number one in the US for 10 weeks, Grammy winning, etc etc. No doubt it is of cultural signicance, and obviously it's relevant to Bette Davis, especially so because she was around to comment on it, and she featured prominently in its lyrics. How about Jean Harlow and Greta Garbo, who are also mentioned in the lyrics? It could be mentioned in their articles, but I don't see that it's especially relevant to them. I think the Day references are roughly equal to the Harlow and Garbo references, and not seeing the necessity in discussing it in their articles, is not intended to diminish any of them. I suppose I do have an issue with "In popular culture" sections. Some articles use a "legacy" section, and the notable cultural references can fit into that as part of an overall discussion of the individual's impact. When I see it presented as a list of song titles, or similar, it seems to be shining a spotlight on one aspect of their overall impact, and often failing to address the broader topic. I've only mentioned the music aspect of it, but the group of subsections are of a similar nature. I would probably find it less glaring if there was some summary of her overall contribution/legacy/impact... whatever, and supported by examples.

I also think you make a good point about filmographies, but I don't know that extending that rationale to other areas, would not present a new set of problems. Filmographies are usually presented as complete lists simply to avoid the POV of presenting a "selected" list. (The negative aspect is that unless you are already familiar with the performer and the films, each title is given equal weight.) That same degree of impartiality would be more difficult in listing cultural references. A degree of POV is needed to choose what stays and what goes, but then that is true of most of the article content, given that articles are not intended to be exhaustive. Marilyn Monroe - she's a very specific case, in my opinion, because she is referenced in so many types of media and the references range from a minor mention to using her as the subject of the work. What I find interesting (and which her article does not go into) is why her, and when did it begin? Before or after she died? Of all the celebrities past and present, living and dead, why is there such a flood of material that references her? I find those questions more interesting than any of the individual points of reference, and I hope one day to discover an answer, or at least a theory I can believe. Anyway, I have no intention of touching the points made in this article. My attention was only drawn to it because of the copyright issue with the Grease song, and I see it's been modified to avoid reproducing the lyrics. You've given me some things to think about, and I always welcome that. Rossrs (talk) 14:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

"From your point about Monroe, I'm wondering if perhaps the problem drawing your tag-team here is more one with popular culture sections in general."??? Rossrs has thicker skin that I do. Our "tag-team" attention has been here for some time for a myriad of issues that have come up. Wildhartlivie (talk) 19:16, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not that I have thicker skin. I wanted to discuss the article content, and I wasn't sure what to make of that comment. Rossrs (talk) 21:21, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I've had a recent issue with an editor here with regard to an addition I have tried to post over the past 2 or 3 days. Initially, as a first time poster, I had mistakenly included several lines (8) from a song, from the Broadway musical Grease, that referenced Doris Day, and was informed that the inclusion of the lyrics was in violation of Wikipedia's copyright restrictions. I was told that other additions/posts in the same section, which also included copyrighted lyrics, were allowed because they were limited to an acceptable length. After editing my post to four lines: Watch it! Hey, I'm Doris Day/I was not brought up that way/Won't come across; even Rock Hudson lost/His heart to Doris Day, it, as well as an external link verifying relevant Tony award information, has been deleted yet again.

Grease was at one time the longest running show in Broadway history, and now stands at 12th. The 1978 film adaptation is #20 in AFI's (American Film Institute) Top 100 Greatest American Musicals. As I am attempting to include my post in the section focusing on Doris Day's impact on popular culture, I feel it is a legitimate entry.

Despite my efforts to revise my post so that its format and length match the others, I feel the editor has lost objectivity in this case and has allowed it to become a personal issue. My last communication, explaining that I was not ignoring protocol but was simply unfamiliar, received no response and has been deleted along with my post's most recent revision. I'd like to open up the discussion to the other editors here and would appreciate any objective input. Boicevox (talk) 17:43, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, first, new posts go at the bottom, and never change someone else's post, including the use of bolding or italics. Never. Secondly, the Tony award has nothing to do with Doris Day, if people want to read about the musical, they can click on the link in the article. What you keep adding in the way of "reference" is a copy and paste from the Grease page, which is not a reference and again, isn't about Doris Day. There is no need to quote lyrics.

As for it becoming personal, as I noted on your talk page, copyright issues are serious, and you had already seen the edit summaries that clearly stated it was a copyright issue, yet you still returned it. When I left a copyright violation notice on your talk page, you certainly didn't simply inquire, you also made effort to make belittling comments to me about a late night typographical error I made when I posted to your page. I referred you to the essay on Wikipedia:Don't be a dick and noted that making fun of typos qualifies. The personal was on your part. Wildhartlivie (talk) 21:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I had moved on from the copyright point, Wildhartlivie, because your explanation that the issue was about the length of the lyrics in the section – mine and others' – was both clear and satisfactory. My final edit, again deleted, only included the four lines I noted in my previous post; equal to or less in content than others allowed.

Also, at your suggestion, I removed the reference copied from the Grease page two attempts ago. The Tony reference in my most recent deleted post, inserted as an external link (not as a footnoted reference), verifies the encyclopedic content of my statement that Grease is a multiple Tony award winning show. As the song Look At Me, I'm Sandra Dee, is from the Broadway show, Grease, and includes the cited set of lyrics that mention Doris Day specifically, it's relevance is obvious – at least to me. As I said, I think, perhaps, you have lost your objectivity in this particular instance, hence my opening up the discussion to other editors here that aren't so personally invested.

I repeat, the correction of your typos in my initial message to you was just that, a correction: and I quote: "Btw, 'placing Wikipedia is the same predictament?' That would be, 'in the same predicament.'" I was irritated, yes, but there were no "belittling comments" and no "making fun." Interpretation is subjective, yes, but let's stick to the literal. You were – and clearly still seem to be – on the defensive because I hurt your feelings by pointing out your errors. I apologize for that. Basically, though, proofing and corrections are an integral part of the publishing world, digital or otherwise. Writers, editors and others in the business deal with it every day.

Lastly, your second referral to the article, "Don't be a dick" indicates you're suggesting, again, that I am one. I am not. I simply tried to insert a post I felt would be of interest to those reading about Doris Day references in popular culture. I wrote in my last response to you that I had "no interest in engaging in a pissing contest with you." I still hold that position. Name calling reads as juvenile and unnecessary, and I will hardly go to that level here. Again, I suggest that you and I defer to other available editors and place this matter in the hands of those with clearer perspective. Good idea, yes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boicevox (talk • contribs) 00:03, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Tag spam

I found that there were too many tags on top of the article and so I removed them. Right afterwards someone put those unnecessary tags back in and claimed on my discussion page that they weren't tag spam which, in fact, they were. There were about five tags at the top of the article which is, most definitely, way too much. Some of them were quite old too, and so I think they were mostly obsolete. It often happens that someone passes by the article and adds a tag without explaining why he or she thinks the tag is necessary. And since no one else thinks the tag is necessary and no explanation is given, the tags just remain and nothing happens. Until someone removes them. And then someone who thinks he's very clever puts them back in, claiming that they are indeed necessary but without further expanations WHY they are necessary - likely because the person who puts them back in doesn't really know him- or herself. So what's the point of those annoying tags? None! And that's why I removed them again. Too many tags ARE spam and that's that! --Krawunsel (talk) 11:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing improper or invalid about any of those tags, and I see that you once again removed them without making any substantial improvements to the article. There are four tags:

• It may need copy editing for grammar, style, cohesion, tone or spelling. Tagged since April 2009.

This article has a great deal of puffery and WP:PEACOCK words that need to be copy edited.

• It may require general cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Tagged since April 2009.

There are sections that contained lists mixed in with prose.

• Its lead section requires expansion. Tagged since April 2009.

The lead comes nowhere near summarizing the article.

• This article has been nominated to be checked for its neutrality. Discussion of this nomination can be found on the talk page. (April 2009)

Some of the fanboy tone has been trimmed, but not enough.

Just because the article has been tagged since April does not mean the issues have been resolved and it is inappropriate to remove the tags because you don't like them. If you don't like them, fix the problems. In the course of tags on articles on Wikipedia, 5 months isn't all that long. And for the record, posting here that someone probably doesn't even know why the tags are there is also inappropriate. You don't know why they're there is not the basis for simply returning the tags when someone states clearly that you didn't make improvements that were needed, it means some people do think they are needed. What are you here for if not to edit articles?? Wildhartlivie (talk) 22:16, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Wholesome American Project

I propose this biography to initiate a project entitled "Average American Icon Project",

Doris Kappelhoff is an average every-day American who struck out on a singing career when radio was new, bandstands were old and film was new.

Earlier, Doris had an average wholesome life even as she became famous and signed on to films and records.

She never demanded the spotlight or expected special treatment. Of course in her life, as in everyone's life, things happen. But in her life, they become fodder for tabloids.

She is just an average Wholesome American who resents being called an "Icon".

The One and Only Worldwise Dave Shaver 06:12, 24 October 2009 (UTC)