Talk:Batman

A little back and forth

I've been removing as it pops up the following information:

Grayson is more affable with the Gotham City Police Department (which has stated "This new Batman is working for us"), having been a police officer at one point himself. He is more overt in tackling crime, choosing not to disable security cameras and never ceasing to talk during fights. Grayson's acrobatic background also makes him more inclined to high-flying maneuvers¹.

This most recent offering was from the anon 121.91.168.220. The previous time this exact edit was offered was a series (2, 3) of cumulative edits by anon 119.12.112.219. Now, I must admit, between these two versions I asked for citations, and the second version does seem to cite the comic books wherein these instances occur. However, there is an evaluative, or deductive reasoning required to string these different facts together like pearls - all of which violates our synthesis policy. I've removed it now for the second time. I think we cannot re-add it unless a reliable source makes these connections for us. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 11:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Bill Finger

It looks as if there's been a bit of an edit war over whether or not to include Bill Finger as uncredited co-creator of Batman in the infobox. My feeling is that since the article has substantial cited material describing Finger's contributions to the creation of Batman, it's appropriate for the infobox to reflect that. I haven't looked through the article history to see how long Finger has been listed, but since there was some back-and-forth I figured it was worth discussing here. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 14:26, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

• I agree that based on the many cites within the article, Finger should be listed as the article currently does, as "(uncredited)", and that perhaps we should footnote the (uncredited) to explain it. Hiding T 17:59, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I copied a citation from the Bill Finger article which looks good; however, I don't have the book in question and can't verify that it says what is claimed in Bill Finger. If anyone here has Ron Goulart's Comic Book Encyclopedia, it would be great if we had a page number for where Goulart describes Batman as the "creation of artist Bob Kane and writer Bill Finger". —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:35, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Batman/Bruce Wayne secret ID

4 times Batman/Bruce Wayne Secret Id almost exposed on 1960's Batman: Egghead used his super-intellect to reason that only a millionaire could afford crime fighting gadgets-and of the three millionaires of Gotham City one has a French accent and one is a southpaw-leaving only Bruce Wayne. Batman/Wayne tricks Egghead into disbelieving his own reasoning. The only other villian to deduce Batman's identity is King Tut-once by placing a tracking bug on the Batmobile and the other time by accidently mining a tunnel into the Batcave-but Batman manages to defeat King Tut each time-once by pubilcly discrediting him and the other by tricking him into causing amenisa on himself.) Ironicaly two of the series regular supervillians came close to Batman's real Identity:

• Joker almost found out Batman's true identity when he accidently came across the secret passage to the Batcave and slides down a Batpole but Alfred Pennyworth saved the day by pushing a emergency button that causes the Batpole cusion to slide up!! Joker is so terrified going up and down, that he never realizes he slides down to the Batcave}.
• Penguin tricked Batman into bring a bugged penguin umbrella into the Batcave so he could plan crimes using Batman's knowledge!! Unlike King Tut, Penguin never used the bug as a tracking device in order to deduce Batman's Identity.} —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.83.126.88 (talk) 11:38, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
• Although never stated directly it is implied that Commissioner Gordon knows who Batman is-but won't tell! In a epsiode of Batgirl , her secret identity is accidently revealed to Alfred Pennyworth; although Alfred doesn't give his name logically a smart person such as Barbara Gordon could figure out who Alfred is-and thus realize who Batman and Robin really are. Ironically in the Animated Series a grief stricken Commissioner Gordon confronts Batman/Bruce Wayne after the "death" of Batgirl {he had checked Barbara computer on Batman}. In a ironic double epsiode Batman and Robin and Green Hornet and KAto each wonder who the secret identites of their crime fighting rivals are! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.83.126.88 (talk) 12:39, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Er... are you suggesting something that you think should be added to the article? Remember, talk pages are not a forum for discussion of the article's subject. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:50, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I have to agree. You just kind of started stating weird facts for no reason.67.109.178.2 (talk) 12:52, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Sexual Preference Is Not Encyclopedic Material

Sexual Preference Is Not Encyclopedic Material —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.170.238.33 (talk) 05:36, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Seduction of the Innocent, academic interest and creator responses are, in fact encyclopedic material.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 11:25, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

But is the speculation notable? Dale Thompson and many others criticize Cornerstone Festival for various reasons, but that's not notable. (Not saying this is criticism). 98.198.83.12 (talk) 06:56, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Werther's accusations were the foundation for the CCA, one of the single greatest legally enforced censorship systems in the history of the US. They're incredibly notable to the history of comics, and bcause they are build on Batman and Robin, incredibly notable here. ThuranX (talk) 04:57, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

You might be overstatting it a bit, Thuran, but I'll with keeping it for now. The Werthem accusations have certainly refused to die completely. Though now they've morphed into something most people just consider to be a joke (inspired by "funny" and easily misinterpreted panels [a la Superdickery]). Those films directed by Schumacher probably didn't help matters, either. What I don't get is this: if Robin is a kid (in most stories) and Bruce is supposedly f---ing him, wouldn't that make him a child molester? There's so much emphasis on the "gay" thing, people forget that such relationship would probably be pedophilic (and, arguably, incestuous) on its face. Now that, even 50 years after Seduction, is just SICK. (and, you know, not very funny.) Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 17:56, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Considering that the the issue's history has had a good amount of press coverage, I'd say that to an extent it's encyclopedic. Not sure if this can be done, but if possible, make it more about the actual debate of his sexual orientation rather than about Batman's sexual orientation. In other words, don't make it about "Is Batman gay?" but rather about the people and arguments that he is gay vs. he isn't. Anakinjmt (talk) 22:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Relationships

Unless someone can give a good reason why, I think there should be a section on Batmans romantic encounters. It is a rather important part of the overarching storyline, and its worthwhile to mention the other characters involved in that capacity —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brinlong (talk • contribs) 04:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

It's trivial. There's been little to no authoritative writing on the matter, excepting those cases where it refers to the amping up of his 'playboy lifestyle' as a contrast to the pre-werther era, and to distance from Werther's ideas. There's little about the 'long term love of X Y or Z(atanna)' for example. ThuranX (talk) 04:58, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Present information

There is a lot of info in this article that seems to have been selected through favouritism. For example, why is one of Batman's alter egos listed as "Matches Mallone"? It's specific to a very particular era which is not the present and it's not basic to the mythology. Similarly, why are Nightwing and Batgirl still listed as Batman's allies? I suspect the childhood memories of this article's editors may be playing a part in the selection of information, rather than what is canon and what is not. ArtistScientist (talk) 13:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

• You make some good points. However, Wikipedia is built through the ability of anyone to edit and through that using a consensus model. We also do not allow original research or adopt a point of view, therefore, unless someone has defined a canon for Batman, we cannot create such a thing. We can simply iterate what reliable sources tell us. We are a tertiary encyclopedia rather than a definitive guide to canon, and our articles tend to reflect most of those facts. With regards favouritism, I am unsure whether I understand your point, since any perceived canon is simply another form of favouritism, albeit one with a fancy name. Hiding T 15:06, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Well what I meant by canon wasn't in any subjective sense, but simply the way it currently is in the main DCU. I think people have got too used to certain institutions in the mythos. Even if the criterion for this type of information wasn't what is present but rather what are essential aspects of the mythology, then it becomes more dubious. That's the reason why I think if we can't cite that a certain thing is a basic staple of Batman, then we should go with the way it is in the present. Is that more clear now? ArtistScientist (talk) 06:41, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Not really, since it is very much a subjective viewpoint as to "what currently is" in the DCU, and it is also a subjective viewpoint that the situation as it stands right now is more important than the situation as it stood yesterday or at any other point in the historical record. On Wikipedia we are not interested in advertising or advising on the make-up of a comic book universe, we are interested in informing readers as to the historical record of topics. Coming back to your initial point, it's worth bearing in mind that your opinion of the merit of the alias "Matches Mallone" is a subjective one, and your attempt to remove the alias could also be put down to favouritism and a desire to protect your current memories. But this is Wikipedia, so we don;t discuss things at that sort of level. We just try and work out what's best for the encyclopedia, which means working out how to treat a topic so that we convey a neutral summary of reliable sources. Should "Matches Mallone" be in the infobox? I don't know, but it should be in the article somewhere. Hiding T 08:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

A quick search has pulled up a 2009 story by Brian K. Vaughan titled "Batman: False Faces" in which the alias is used. Is that not current enough? If we reduced this article to that which was only found in secondary sources, I think the consensus would be against it, personally. Hiding T 10:23, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

It just sounds ad populum to me. Sure Matches Mallone should be mentioned in the sections pertaining to the Bruce Wayne incarnation of Batman, but then there's nothing but erroneous popular opinion that makes Bruce Wayne the current Batman. Or Nightwing an ally of Batman. That was a segment of history spanning 1984 to early 2009, but there's nothing that warrants depicting that situation as being the present one, as this article's lead does. It should be up to date like the lead of Robin (comics). An encyclopedia should be factual. All I'm arguing for is the facts. False Faces was actually 2008 as well, before Wayne was "killed". —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArtistScientist (talk • contribs) 13:38, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be arguing that this article represent the point of view of current continuity, rather than establish the historical record. That is not the purpose of an encyclopedia. The lead of this article does not mention Nightwing to my eye. Have you had a look at WP:RECENTISM, that may help explain some of the issues this article may at present be facing. What this article needs to do is balance the need to be up to date with the need to inform as many readers as possible. This article, per our policies, should not be edited to represent only the point of view of fans who wish to see it document the current storylines of the Batman comic book. This article has to document the concept of the "Batman" character, as it has appeared across numerous media, to a vast audience. Batman may well be Dick Grayson in some recently published comic books, and therefore Nightwing may not be an ally of that Batman, but in a greater number of comic books and even one major motion picture, Nightwing was an ally of Batman. Further than that, in the vast bulk of use, the Batman concept is tied to the notion that Bruce Wayne is Batman. In keeping with our policies on creating a neutral point of view, we cannot ignore that bulk in favour of recent events. We must instead craft an article which gives each facet due weight. I hope that explains. Hiding T 14:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I understand that the historical record needs to be established. But depicting Nightwing as an ally of Batman shows bias towards the last 25 of Batman's 70 year history. Nightwing didn't exist from 1939 to 1963, was a Superman character from 1963 to 1984 and again is separated from Batman in the present. So why should the focus be on the specific era of 1984-2009? ArtistScientist (talk) 01:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

The focus isn't on 1984-2009. You haven't explained why the focus is on 1984-2009 simply because Nightwing is listed as an ally. If we accept that for say, 35% of the publication history of Batman comics, Nightwin has been regarded as an ally, I'd think the burden of proof would be on someone who wanted to state Nightwing is not an ally of Batman. I think the confusion stems from the fact that you may be immersing yourself in the fiction to the point that you are unable to differentiate from whatever fictional things happen to be happening in the comics right now and the fact that Batman is a fictional character who has a fictional ally called Nightwing. You may also not be aware that grammatically we write about fiction in something called the "literary present". This is because literary works, paintings, films, and other artistic creations are assumed to exist in an eternal present, so we describe them as if they exist in the present. We do not discuss them as having happened in the past, because they have not actually happened, given that they are not real. So if you happen to pick up any comic from the period when Nightwing is Batman's ally, you read the story and Nightwing is Batman's ally. It gets confusing when a time-line is enforced upon this eternal present. We have a manual of style which should help to explain all of this at WP:WAF, hope that helps. Hiding T 13:25, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

If we accept that for say, 35% of the publication history of Batman comics, Nightwin has been regarded as an ally, I'd think the burden of proof would be on someone who wanted to state Nightwing is not an ally of Batman.

My problem isn't anything else you said, just this part. Nightwing being his ally shouldn't automatically override Nightwing not being his ally.

It's like saying in the Flash article that the Flash has a romantic interest named Iris West. It's not a consistent element of the mythology. You can say as a blanket statement (which is what the lead section is supposed to be) that he runs fast and wears lightning bolts because those are constant components of the Flash, and you can say Batman has a sidekick named Robin and a butler Alfred, but Nightwing was a Superman character for twenty-one years before he was a Batman character. Not as an enemy, but also not as an ally. The same thing applies in calling Catwoman an ally. It depends on the storyline. Sometimes it's an element of the continuity, other times it's not. Currently the article can easily give the impression that Dick Grayson is sometimes aided by Chris Kent, which shows there is a problem in the precision of the wording. I would be satisfied by the sentence "Batman operates in the fictional American Gotham City, assisted by various supporting characters including his main sidekick Robin, occasional assistance from the heroine Batgirl and in some versions the hero Nightwing." ArtistScientist (talk) 06:20, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

So why are we here then? Hiding T 16:37, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with the OP. The current article looks implicitly POV'd and fannish. Perhaps, regarding "partnerships"--because that's the term, and it's a lot more specific than "allies"--we could just have Robin--his only real, firmly establish partner--and maybe a "see above (Team affs.)" note. Then, add "World's Finest" to said affs, and that covers Supes. Anything else would be a stretch to put in the "partnership"--not "ally"--category. As for alias, I'd definitely suggest adding back various ones which were no doubt deleted while someone was off taking a whizz. Maybe use a strict citation only policy to keep it objective. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 17:34, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

And the Dick thing

Also, why the heavy note about Dick? I understand he's subbing again, but is that really something we need to note in the "Characterization" area as well as the intro? I think we could stand to remove the former bit (at minimum),as it's basically just some quotes from Morrison. At the end of the day, Bruce'll be back, and we'll be (for the most part) ditching all the stuff about Dick, anyway. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 17:34, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, we all assume that Bruce will be back, but it might not be so quickly. Could be several years, like with Captain America, or heck, could be longer, like Hal Jordan longer or even Barry Allen longer. At the end of the day, we simply don't know what DC has planned, although Blackest Night seems like a very possible way of bringing Bruce back, but that's pure speculation. And speaking of which, it's pure speculation that Bruce will return. As it is right now, Dick Grayson is Batman. It's not simply subbing like Valley did when Bane broke Bruce's back. Grayson has "permanently" (in terms of comics permanently) taken on the role of Batman. I will say that the section of Dick shouldn't seem to take space away from the rest of the article with Bruce as Batman. Anakinjmt (talk) 22:13, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Hal and Barry--Allen, not Allan--are bad examples; I sure as hell don't consider Wally OR Kyle to have been "fill-ins". What I'm saying, with regards to Bruce, is simply that we shouldn't set the article in a way that's not unsustainable or unreflective of what's most likely going to happen. Still, I guess you (and others) are right about the 'pedia not being a crystal ball (even for the obvious). Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 18:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, oops. I thought I typed it Allen. I understand why pretty much everyone is expecting Bruce to return. He's been Batman for years. Batman, along with Superman and Wonder Woman, are the three of the five biggest DC characters who didn't get their series canceled at the end of the Golden Age and then relaunched with new people taking the mantle with brand new origin (the two that did would be Flash and Green Lantern). Having someone else be Green Lantern or Flash isn't as big of a deal, but with one of the Trinity (as they're sometimes called) being replaced by someone else IS a big deal. Purely in my opinion, as a huge fan of comics and Batman in particular, I am fully expecting Bruce to return to the mantle of the Bat. But we can't jump the gun and put those assumptions in the article. And, thing is, I don't think Hal and Barry are bad examples. Those two, along with the Trinity, were the 5 biggest DC superheroes of the Silver Age and were the ONLY titles that began the Silver Age. For now, we (meaning Wikipedia) should act as though Dick Grayson will now forever be Batman, while still keeping in mind that the article does primarily focus on Bruce. It's a very fine line to walk but I'm positive we can walk it. Anakinjmt (talk) 20:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Uh, dude, did I misread you or did you just say GL and Flash "didn't get their series canceled at the end of the Golden Age and then relaunched with new people taking the mantle"? That's EXACTLY what happened. Heck, GL and Flash wouldn't be the properties they are now if not for the Silver Age re-inventions (and, later, the Modern Age successions). Jay inspired Barry, who inspired Wally, and so on. The cloying, faux-Silver Age revert DC seems to be going for with Hal and Barry is a mixed bag, at best. I love the properties, but I'll never buy that any one character defines them. (Even B-list guys like Orin have a better claim to such status.) Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 19:53, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

No, no, no. I was saying that out of the big 5 of DC, Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are the ones who didn't get their series canceled at the end of the Golden Age, but that Green Lantern and Flash, the other two, did. Sorry, I thought I'd made that as clear as I could. Guess not. I'll fix it up above. Anakinjmt (talk) 20:28, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Weird image of Bob Kane

What is this exactly? thumb|left|110px|

The file summary leaves me unclear as to where it came from. ArtistScientist (talk) 12:42, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Batman Creation

According to Book and Magazine Collector Monthly (no 246) Bob Kane got the idea of 'the Batman' over a weekend, inspired by Da Vinci's drawings of bats as well as the films listed and then called in his old schoolfried Bill Finger for help. It also states he would have been called a costumed adventurer, not a superhero, that had yet to be coined (obviously it is not worth replacing all references to the word superhero and changing it to costumed adventurer). Detective Comics #27 was edited by Vin Sullivan. 89.242.157.137 (talk) 18:41, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Influences

I see influences such as the Shadow and Zorro named as inspirations for Batman (which quite obviously they were) but I believe there is another earlier influence which always seems to go unnoticed and which I believe should be mentioned and that is the similarities Batman has in both his original story and in most later film adaptations with Alexander Dumas’ the Count of Monte Cristo. Let me make my case.

Monte Cristo’s and Batman’s similarities.

1.The vow of revenge against the people who have wronged them and it is their primary motivation for what they do. The desire for Vengeance is mentioned in most Batman films in live action and animated forms. In the 1995 film Batman Forever it is stated that Batman believes revenge has become his whole life.

2.The dawning of a darker alter ego with unwavering convictions as to what they want to do. They both dress in black with capes.

3.They are both able to use an almost unlimited supply of money and resources towards their goals. They both also live in Mansions in large cities.

4.The use of allies/sidekicks. Batman has numerous people under him he can depend on for help and with similar goals to his. Alfred, Robin, Batgirl, Batwoman, Nightwing, and Lucius Fox. The Count of Monte Cristo had Luigi Vampa, Jacopo, Ali, Baptistin, Bertuccio, Benedetto and Princess Haydee all with their own helpful skills to assist him and with similar goals.

5.Detective skills. Monte Cristo and Batman both use intelligence and cunning to destroy their enemies.

6.Monte Cristo has an underground hideout/headquarters in a cave underneath the island of Monte Cristo which in some respects seems similar to the Batcave.

7.The training and refining of Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins (2005) by Ducard is also similar to the training Dantes receives from Abbe Faria. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.68.27.26 (talk) 09:16, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

The Phantom

The Phantom's obvious influence on Batman needs to be mentioned somewhere in the article. It's obvious that Kane and/or Finger lifted Batman's white eyes with no pupils straight from Lee Falk's character, and such it needs to be recognized. It is detailly described in the Phantom article how Falk got the idea for his hero having no visible eyes behind his mask, and Batman, and countless other superheroes, took this straight from "The Ghost Who Walks". --Kit Walker (talk) 08:20, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

• Have you got a reliable source for the info? Hiding T 09:43, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, there are several reliable sources on how Falk came up with the idea of the white eyes from observing Greek busts, which usually did not have visible pupils. One of the best sources is an interview with Falk in the documentary "The Phantom: Comic Strip Crusader", which aired on A&E in 1996. I think it really warrants a brief mention in the Batman article under the "Creation" section if the likes of Doc Savage and The Shadow can get one simply by being "master sleuths and scientists"... It's obvious Batman as a character would look different if it wasn't for the Phantom. --Kit Walker (talk) 13:51, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

This sounds very OR and soap boxy to me. Did Kane mention an influence in his autobiography? He'd acknowledged Zorro and the silent movie The Bat, to my knowledge, but I don't believe the Phantom. Should be easy enough to check if someone has a copy of the book. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The Bill Finger article offers what appears to be a reliable source for the Phantom's influence on Batman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Finger#cite_note-9 --Kit Walker (talk) 23:06, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I guess one could just port over that sentence with the attached cites as written. -- Tenebrae (talk) 00:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Split into two articles

As I was just at the fictional history of Dick Grayson page and it was nominated for deletion and the result was keep. Here this is Batman worlds finest he has a long history and I have a feeling we should split this article off into two articles.

Fictional History of Batman (Like the fictional history of Dick Grayson Page)

Batman (Includes all information except the biography which will be incorperated into the page above)

This is just a thought. --Schmeater (talk) 18:28, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

• I'm not convinced that teh Dick Grayson article won;t be merged back, that seems to be a strong possibility, and a number of such articles have already been deleted this year so I think there's no clear consensus. I would advise against a split. This is a featured article. Hiding T 18:50, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Besides, the fictional history section really doesn't seem that long. The only way it looks long is if you combine the publication history with it, and considering the fictional history and publication history are two completely different things, I really don't think it's an issue right now. Anakinjmt (talk) 19:55, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

This underlines a problem with the article and it won't be fixed by splitting, as the split article would violate WP:WAF and be a prime target for deletion or cutting back and being merged back here in a different form.

The problem is that the FCB section isn't, or at least shouldn't be. As the introduction makes clear it is about his origin and the way his biography has been presented and changed. As such it is out-of-universe and a solid well-focused section. However, it should be called "origin" and trimmed down, as being called FCB seems to have led people to tag on in-universe elements (especially on the end, when it really should be reworded and added to PH, if at all). This is similar to Superman#Comic book character, which combines the origin and characterisation (which makes sense as the origin of Batman does partly help define his character). As it stands it could easily drag the article down and fail a FAR. I'd suggest hacking it right back and then renaming the section or reworking it with the characterisation section so it looks at his origin and characterisation. Just not a split. (Emperor (talk) 04:55, 3 November 2009 (UTC))

More than one Batman

Is there a listing for the 'other' sort of batman, namely an orderly in the British army?