Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lesbian kiss episode

Lesbian kiss episode

Lesbian kiss episode (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Delete. A random list of television episodes, with minor contextual coverage, that contain lesbian kisses. Some notability concerns and there are original research problems - none of the specific episodes have any third-party commentary. The concept on the whole seems to be notable, so it needs to be mentioned somewhere, but I don't think the issue as a whole deserves its own article. Dale 02:22, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

• Keep. This is a well written article about a common television plot device. If each listed episode needs a reference ... it can start by citing the episode itself that anyone can verify that the alleged kiss did in fact take place and was a plot or sub-plot device. And yes, there are indeed plenty of articles and even books devoted to lesbian/LGBT portrays in mainstream media and this subject is a prominent example. Here's quite a few books and a few papers, and at least a few dozen news articles. More can certainly be found by tweaking the search phrase. -- Banjeboi 03:32, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
• Delete. What a joke, this is nothing more than a silly collection of television episodes where two girls kiss. Puh-leeez. JBsupreme (talk) 06:52, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
• Keep Based on what Benjiboi found in Google books and Google news search, its a notable topic. Dream Focus 10:02, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Television-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 13:57, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
• Keep How times have changed. When it happened on Roseanne in 1994, it was seen by some as a milestone on the road of moral depravity, by others as a a landmark in tolerance. [1] Now, it's so ordinary that a new generation sees this as trivia. [2] But it has been noticed along the way by the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, the Boston Globe. People still keep track of these things. [3]. Mandsford (talk) 14:20, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
• Keep I have begun adding sources, and tagging many of the episodes noted in the NYT article. I have found 4 critical commentaries on listed episodes on about 20 minutes. I believe that each episode in the list should be sourced, but this seems like a simple enough prospect. The language in the sources clearly acknowledges this as its own phenomenon, and there are no notability issues. Jim Miller ^{See me | Touch me} 15:06, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
• Suggestion Merge with Very special episode and rename the combined article to something conceptual. By combining multiple articles about television ratings manipulation methods into one article, the concept will be better explored and explained. Miami33139 (talk) 16:45, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
  • That's an excellent wikilink to include but Very special episode includes all manner of subjects whereas this focuses on a just a few around sexuality issues. That would seem to compromise both articles. A template on television could tie the articles together. -- Banjeboi 00:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
    • Wikilink added to lede. -- Banjeboi 00:58, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
• Strong Delete/Merge I am sure that in most of the episodes listed a woman did kiss a woman. I have no idea why this is notable. Ought we have a list of episodes in which characters got cancer? How about a list in which a character bought a car? The sources brought up by Benjiboi refer to individual episodes but show no demonstrable phenomenon, no discussion of any sort of a trend, no evidence that there should be an article documenting every time a woman has kissed a woman on television. - Schrandit (talk) 17:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment Schrandit raises no policy/guideline based reasons for deletion. The subject is notable because the plot device itself meets our guidelines for having an article. It has received substantial coverage from multiple, independent reliable sources. An article on episodes where a character got cancer or bought a car would be absolutely appropraite if the same guidelines were met. If you wish the list portion (in the table) removed, that is a content dispute, and would be an appropriate discussion on the article talk page. I see the current list as supporting the article prose, which needs expansion, but discusses the subject directly. Jim Miller ^{See me | Touch me} 19:40, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I thought my notability concerns we pretty well spelled out. Again, there are independent reliable sources saying that woman X kissed woman Y on show Z, this I do not dispute. There are no sources saying there is any sort of a Lesbian Kiss Espisode phenomenon or trend. preliminary google results yield no evidence of the use of the phrase "Lebsian Kiss Episode" any where but Wikipedia. This is just a random list of shows on which a woman has kissed a woman with no explaination of importance. We might as well have a list of shows on which people have eaten pizza. - Schrandit (talk) 20:01, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

The entire first reference is multiple pages from the New York Times on the phenomenon that also includes a researched list of a dozen examples. It goes on about the history of these episodes. Several of the other sources cited also refer to the entire genre of episodes in their commentary. One (ref #8 from the New York Post behind a pay-wall here) even goes so far as to call it "the obligatory lesbian-kiss scene" in the headline. The fact that in less than a decade it went from ground-breaking to "obligatory" speaks directly toward the notability of the subject itself. Considering the additional book references that BanjeBoi has linked above, it clearly surpasses the requirements of all of our guidelines. Jim Miller ^{See me | Touch me} 21:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

• Keep: and rename to "Television episodes featuring lesbian kissing". This is certainly notable given the prevailing attitudes of the day toward this type of display. GreyWyvern^⚒ 18:31, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
• Keep, notability indicated by sources. Everyking (talk) 19:51, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
• Weak Keep, but rename to "List of television episodes featuring same-sex kissing" (or something like that) because reliable sources aren't really supporting the "lesbian kiss episode" phrase and the article could easily be expanded to include gay kissing. Comment: I dunno why this has to be such a big deal, frankly. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:52, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
• Keep, its a topic which has been noted and analyzed by reliable sources, such as the 2005 NY Times piece cited in the article.--Milowent (talk) 20:29, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
• Keep - I've seen several articles on this phenomenon over the years. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 20:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
• Rename - since not all of these were lesbians but some were just females kissing... –xeno^talk 21:22, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
• Keep, but give it a better name. Joe Chill (talk) 23:17, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
• Comment. For those calling for a rename please know that sources cite these as "lesbian kisses" regardless of the sexuality of the characters or actors. That they may or may not actually be lesbian likely should be spelled out in the lede but does not necessitate a name change. Also Same-sex kiss might be a good article in and of itself as two men kissing has certainly been covered in a similar way. Likely Gay kiss episode could be folded into Same-sex kiss episode with a summary of this article included there. -- Banjeboi 00:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
• Keep, sources prove notability. Raystorm (¿Sí?) 14:02, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
• Keep (article creator/main author) - Sources that existed before the AFD was opened (NYT article, AfterEllen article, the books, etc.) support the notability of the topic, as do the sources on some of the individual episodes which have their own articles (especially Don't Ask, Don't Tell and Sugar & Spice). Additional sources found during this discussion indicate the likelihood that the topic can be expanded upon, not deleted. As side notes: I don't agree that these episodes may be reasonably classified as "very special episodes" as that term is used and understood so merger or linkage to that article is not appropriate. I titled the article as I did because the article is about the phenomenon of this sub-genre. There is not to the best of my knowledge a similar phenomenon regarding male-on-male kissing and I have never seen a source that even discusses the idea that there is a "gay male kiss episode" sub-genre, so I disagree with genericizing this article by including male-male kisses. Since sources use the phrase "lesbian kiss episode" in discussing the phenomenon it is reasonable to use that phrase in the article's title. The article could be renamed to "List of lesbian kiss episodes" if feelings run particularly high on emphasizing the list portion of the article but I don't see the need for it. Otto4711 (talk) 18:30, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Keep - Itoo am eskimo about this article becuase of its seemingly narrow scope and clumsy phrasing in some small areas. However, the depth and rbeadth of the sources and citations makes me thing that i tshould stay. If even a 1/4th of those sources are real (not dead links, Google searches, or other such nonsense WP:RS-violations) then they should stay. Otherwise, I recommend pruning and deleting until this raticle is more encyclopedic than fancrufty. User:Smith Jones 17:09, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

• Keep is discussed non-trivially in mainstream news media.--RekishiEJ (talk) 04:04, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
• Comment. I am against retitling this article to Television episodes featuring lesbian kissing or in any way to broaden it for gay male kisses. The sources, seemingly mostly reliable, that Benjiboi provided clearly use the wording "lesbian kiss episode." If any episode featuring a lesbian kiss could be added to this article, the article may become too long. Not that I am sure how many lesbian kisses have been carried out throughout the history of television. But my point is that this article defines this "term" in a way that is not only about two women having kissed in an episode; it is more so about "an episode in which a seemingly heterosexual female character engages in a kiss with a lesbian, possibly lesbian or bisexual character" and where "[in] most instances, the potential of a relationship between the women does not survive past the episode and the lesbian or suspected lesbian never appears again." And as to my other objection... I object because this type of gimmick is not as prominent with gay male kisses, due to most of society typically being more comfortable seeing two women kissing than two men kissing. Flyer22 (talk) 05:18, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
• Comment No real encyclopedia, and no serious scholarly resource, would harbor this kind of salacious trivia. The fact that people are showing up to !vote "keep" only proves that this "community" doesn't mean to build an encyclopedia, but something else, and that a result based in "consensus" is completely different from one based upon policy and its original intent. We will not see "Lesbian kiss episode" or anything like it in Britannica anytime soon.67.160.100.233 (talk) 11:39, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
• snowball keep And significant to cultural history and the social shift in attitudes towards acceptance of LGBT identity. Sticky Parkin 19:56, 15 November 2009 (UTC)