Talk:Lesbian kiss episode

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Willow and Tara from Buffy The Vampire Slayer?[edit]

I don't think episodes involving medium-to-long-term couples like Tara and Willow really qualify for the list (even if they do break up then get back together). Any thoughts on this? Contains Mild Peril (talk) 00:22, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

  • Tara appeared in 47 episodes of the series but she and Willow only kiss in one of them that I recall. It seems reasonable to include those episodes here. I'm unaware of any other long-term lesbian couples on broadcast TV, kissing included or otherwise. Otto4711 (talk) 12:41, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


  • I agree with the original poster. Tara and Willow are both "real" lesbians (i.e. don't "reform" after the episode is over) and their relationship is ongoing, not a one-episode thing. It doesn't sound much like what this article describes a "lesbian kiss episode" to be at all. (They also have sex a number of times, for example in Once More With feeling, as well as the kiss that you remember.) 86.153.41.222 (talk) 05:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I also question the inclusion of Flashforward. Both Janice and Maya are lesbians, although Janice is closeted. Neither of them are experimenting and the relationship doesn't go anywhere because Janice is scared off by Maya's aggressiveness. Furthermore I'd also somewhat question the inclusion of "Once and Again." While the kiss is certainly a bit event in that episode, it didn't strike me as the kind of "experimentation" that most of these episodes refer to, but rather a closeted gay girl (Barton) and a possibly gay or bisexual girl (Wood) entering into a relationship. I never felt that the kiss between them was played for cheap ratings or titilation and the two remained in a relationship for the rest of the series (the line about Barton's character only appearing in three more eps is somewhat misleading since the series was cancelled soon after that ep for unrelated reasons and focused on multiple characters, thus precluding featuring the girls relationship in each ep) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.167.103.217 (talk) 18:31, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I removed Brittany and Santana from Glee, as, much like Willow and Tara, they decidedly do not fit what this article is describing. Santana is a lesbian, Brittany is bisexual, and they have been officially together for a season and even longer than that unofficially. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.205.2.82 (talk) 01:52, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

What about House MD?[edit]

House has a "lesbian kiss" episode with 13 and some random chick, and should be included on this list. Of course, 13's bisexuality is a continuing thing in the series, but it is likely a ratings stunt. This is especially true considering that she soon entered into a heterosexual relationship with Foreman. Given the maxim that "once you go black, you never go back", 13 and Foreman's relationship could be seen in the light that Foreman, a doctor, "cures" 13 of her bisexual "illness". Therefore, 13's brief stint as a lesbian is merely a cheap ratings stunt. Furthermore, she is no longer on the show. Quillaja (talk) 03:58, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Later events indicate that, even if this might have been their original intent, it's not how things ended up. Indeed her last appearance involved her moving to Greece with a girlfriend. So although I'm not going to remove her I think she probably should be removed. (I know I intended to live for Christmas break but I think I jumped the gun on that)--T. Anthony (talk) 11:16, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Australian soap operas[edit]

Since the late 1990s, around ten lesbian characters have been tied into Australian soap operas.[citation needed] Women who share a kiss have been shown many times on Australian television, on major shows such as All Saints and Stingers as well as soaps, and the actual kiss no longer makes news headlines.[1] Two of the soap characters were involved in lesbian kiss episodes. In both instances the relationship lasts less than six weeks, which is brief compared to most soap opera romances, and the themes explored in the episode were decidedly controversial. Two lesbian characters in Australian soap operas have been involved in lesbian kiss episodes:

Program Episode Aus. air date Kissers
Neighbours #4573 September 22, 2004 Sky Mangel and Lana Crawford.[2] Lana (Bridget Neval), a lesbian teenager who recently moved into the neighbourhood, forms a special bond with Sky (Stephanie McIntosh), her only friend at the local high school. She leaves at the end of the year.
Neighbours  ???? February 2007 Rosie Cammeniti (Natalie Saleeba) and Pepper Steiger (Nicky Whelan).
I've removed the above as not fitting in the list as presently noted. There may be case for mentioning it as an aside in the lede but let's not degrade the list. -- Banjeboi 03:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
I've thoroughly researched the matter. The phenomenon is not as established in Australia as on American television, but lesbian kiss episodes clearly occur every few years. The NYT article is out of date. Ottre 03:58, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm sure you believe this but please gain consensus to re-add this content. -- Banjeboi 04:33, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
Excuse me? I am not making a subjective call here at all. There are multiple reliable sources which say as much, including newspaper articles which use the term "lesbian kiss episode". Unless you have a proper objection to the content, please stop removing it per WP:BRD. Ottre 04:51, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

British soap operas[edit]

What about British TV as well? This is a great source for just one TV soap, Brookside, in a lesbian kiss which was voted 25th best ever in the channel/network's history. There is no reason why this article should remain US-centric! GiantSnowman 19:21, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

  • This list is US-centric because the sources discuss the specific US phenomenon. If there are sources that discuss a similar phenomenon in the UK or Australia or anywhere else then and only then should they be added. Are there any such sources? Otto4711 (talk) 20:36, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Um yes, I have provided two in my above post...GiantSnowman 23:10, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
  • The first source is specifically about lesbian representation in a single soap opera as it illustrates the concept of lesbian chic. There is no indication of its reliability as a source per WP:RS through a reputation for fact-checking and it is self-published. It does not discuss the LKE phenomenon other than happening to use the term "lesbian kiss". The second is a list of "100 greatest Christmas moments" on British television, not as you represent it a list of the "best ever in the channel/network's history". The source, which is self-published and not independent of the episode and may not be considered reliable in the first place, does not discuss the Brookside episode in any detail, it does not place the Brookside episode in any context and it does not tie the Brookside episode to the American phenomenon. Nothing has yet been provided that indicates that the lesbian kiss episode as described by reliable sources is anything other than an American phenomenon. Again, if there are sources which actually discuss LKEs in other countries in the cultural context of a phenomenon, then by all means either write and article for that country or incorporate the sourced material here. Otto4711 (talk) 01:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
  • 1 is a profile of an actress. 2 is about the soap opera with a passing mention of the kiss. 3 is a general article about gay imagery in storylines and advertising. None of them support the notion of a specific LKE phenomenon in Britain. Otto4711 (talk) 16:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Oh stop being a drama queen. This is not a list of every time two womens' lips touched on TV everywhere in the world. It is about the specifically American phenomenon described in the sources. Adding non-American kisses would be like adding information on the Alamo to an article on the architectural styles of British fortresses. Simply totting up the number of times "lesbian kiss british television" gets means nothing, unless those sources specifically describe a phenomenon akin to the American phenomenon that is the subject of this article. If you want a list of all of the times two womens' lips have touched on television everywhere in the world, have at it. But that is not the function of this particular list. I really don't understand what is so difficult to grasp about that concept. Otto4711 (talk) 20:03, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Is it a "specifically American phenomenon" though? No, clearly not, as I have provided sources which show it happens in Britain, and Ottre above that it happens in Australia. I understand the concept; what I don't understand is why you are so adamant that only American examples are allowed! GiantSnowman 20:15, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Is women kissing women on TV strictly an American phenomenon? Of course not, and I never said that it was. "Showing it happens" is not the issue. The issue is that this particular article is about the AMERICAN phenomenon. My insistence in maintaining the American focus is because that is the scope of the article. If you have sources, not that simply document women kissing on British TV, but that such kisses occur within episodes that follow the same sort of pattern and spring from the same kinds of societal factors as their American counterparts, then great, add the sources that discuss the phenomenon as it occurs in GB. But two women snogging on the BBC is not and cannot possibly be an example of an episode aired on American television in an attempt to increase ratings. Otto4711 (talk) 22:13, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
  • I would suggest you re-name the article then. GiantSnowman 22:53, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Just read this[edit]

Interview with Buffy writer and producer Marti Noxon and Professor Suzana Walters on NPR:

Ms. NOXON: We weren't confronted with the first lesbian kiss, though, but we did have to deal with some network resistance to showing them kissing, which, you know, seemed like such a strange kind of double standard. I mean, I don't know if you guys have commented on this, but there's been a story around Hollywood about a studio note that was basically, you know, you can show girls kissing once, but you can't show them kissing twice...


Prof. WALTERS: Right.
Ms. NOXON: ...because the second time, it means that they liked it, you know. So there's all these sort of strange rules if you get into, about you know, you imply but you can't show. The rules are a lot less liberal than what you can show with a straight couple, although, you know, that does seem to be shifting and changing, you know, week by week, month by month.

Analysis: Portrayals of gays on mainstream TV and the future of gay cable channels 8271 words 24 January 2002 NPR: Talk of the Nation TOTN English Copyright 2002 National Public Radio, Inc.


Just thought it was interesting. --Moni3 (talk) 19:39, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Gay Kiss Episode[edit]

I don't mean to be a mister phallocentric kind of a guy, but shouldn't there also be a "Gay Kiss Episode" Wikipedia article.

72.82.163.254 (talk) 11:26, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

And what about these?[edit]

I posted about this previously in the deletion discussion, but nothing really happened since. The table below are all lesbian kisses from American broadcast television. It's unclear why the kisses that are included in the list in the article now were chosen, some from the list below are included, some are not. Some of the episodes included in the article now are from cable, and I even spot one from Canada. Siawase (talk) 05:04, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Series Title U.S. air date Kissers
All My Children 2009-02-13 episode 2009 Eden Riegel and Tamara Braun
All My Children 2009-02-16 episode 2009 Eden Riegel and Tamara Braun
Ally McBeal "Happy Trails 1997 Calista Flockhart and Jane Krakowski
Ally McBeal "You Never Can Tell" (2x09) 1998 Calista Flockhart and Courtney Thorne Smith
Ally McBeal "Buried Pleasures 1999 Calista Flockhart and Lucy Liu
Andy Richter Controls the Universe "Little Andy in Charge 2002 Irene Molloy and Paget Brewster
Angela's Eyes pilot episode" (1x01) 2006 Joy Tanner and unknown
As If Season 1, Episode 12 2001 Jemima Rooper and Caroline Chikezie
Birds of Prey "Devil's Eyes 2003 Ashley Scott and Mia Sara
Blade: The Series "Monsters" (1x11) 2006 Jill Wagner and Jessica Gower
Blood Ties "Deep Dark" (2x10) 2007 Gina Holden and unknown
Bones "The Con Man in the Meth Lab" (4x08) 2008 Nichole Hiltz and Michaela Conlin
Boomtown "Inadmissible 2003 Vanessa Williams and Rebecca DeMornay
Boston Public various episodes 2000 Michelle Monaghan and unknowns
Buffy the Vampire Slayer "The Body 2001 Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson
Buffy the Vampire Slayer "Entropy 2002 Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson
Buffy the Vampire Slayer "Seeing Red 2002 Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson
Buffy the Vampire Slayer "The Killer In Me 2003 Alyson Hannigan and Iyari Limon
Buffy the Vampire Slayer "Touched 2003 Alyson Hannigan and Iyari Limon
Cashmere Mafia "pilot episode" (1x01) 2008 Bonnie Somerville and Lourdes Benedicto
Cashmere Mafia "Conference Call" (1x02) 2008 Bonnie Somerville and Lourdes Benedicto
Cashmere Mafia "Dangerous Liaisons" (1x03) 2008 Bonnie Somerville and Lourdes Benedicto
Cashmere Mafia "The Deciders" (1x04) 2008 Unknowns
Cold Case "Stand Up and Holler" (4x20) 2007 Unknowns
Coupling "Nine and a Half Minutes 2004 Gina Bellman and Sarah Alexander
Crossing Jordan "Born To Run 2001 Jill Hennessy and unknown
CSI: Crime SceneInvestigation various episodes 2000 Elkin Antonio,Amy Carlson,Elena Lyons,+ more
CSI: Crime Scene Investigation "Big Shots" (7x19) 2007 Laura Vandervoort and Robin Sydney
CSI: New York "Grand Master 2004 Symba Smith and Shi Ne Nielson
Dark Angel "Shorties in Love 2001 Valarie Rae Miller and Tangelia Rouse
Desperate Housewives "The Story ofLucy and Jessie" (5x17) 2009 Eva Longoria,Teri Hatcher and Swoosie Kurtz
Eastwick "Mooning and Crooning" (1x05) 2009 Sara Rue and Lindsay Price
ER "The Greatest of Gifts 2000 Laura Innes and Elizabeth Mitchell
ER "A River in Egypt 2002 Laura Innes and Lisa Vidal
ER "Bygones 2002 Laura Innes and Lisa Vidal
ER "I Don't" (13x21) 2007 Parminder Nagra and Julia Ling
Farscape "Won't Get Fooled Again" (2x15) 2000 Gigi Edgley and Claudia Black
Farscape "Twice Shy" (4x14) 2003 Gigi Edgley and Paula Arundell
Fastlane "Strap On 2003 Tiffany Thiessen and Jaime Pressly
Fat Actress "Holy Lesbo Batman 2005 Kirstie Alley and Kelly Preston
Femme Nikita, La "Open Heart 1998 Peta Wilson and unknown
Firefly "The Train Job 2002 Morena Baccarin and Jewel Staite
Firefly "Our Mrs. Reynolds 2002 Morena Baccarin and Christina Hendricks
Firefly "War Stories" (1x09) 2002 Morena Baccarin and Katherine Kendall
FlashForward "Gimme Some Truth" (1x05) 2009 Christine Woods and Navi Rawat
Friends "The One WithRachel's Big Kiss 2001 Jennifer Aniston, Winona Ryder and Lisa Kudrow
Friends "The One WithPhoebe's Rats 2003 Melissa George and Carly Thomas
Fringe "Bad Dreams" (1x17) 2009 Anna Torv and Kelly Briter
Gossip Girl "Dare Devil" (1x05) 2007 Nicole Fiscella and Nan Zhang
Grey's Anatomy "Losing My Mind" (4x15) 2008 Sara Ramirez and Brooke Smith
Grey's Anatomy "Freedom" (4x16) 2008 Sara Ramirez and Brooke Smith
Grosse Pointe "Passion Fish 2001 Lindsay Sloane and Sarah Michelle Gellar
The Handler "Dirty White Collar 2003 Lola Glaudini and Emilie de Ravin
Heroes "Hysterical Blindness" (4x04) 2009 Hayden Panettiere and Madeline Zima
House M.D. "Lucky Thirteen" (5x05) 2008 Olivia Wilde,Angela Gots and Helena Barrett
In Plain Sight "Let's Get It Ahn" (2x13) 2009 Sherilyn Fenn and Kelly Hu
Just Shoot Me "various episodes 1997- Laura San Giacomo,Wendie Malick+ more
L.A. Law "He's a Crowd 1991 Amanda Donohoe and Michele Greene
Las Vegas "Blood and Sand 2004 Unknowns
Las Vegas "Sperm Whales and Spearmint Rhinos" 2005 Sharon Leal and unknown
Las Vegas "Fleeting Cheating Meeting" (4x10) 2007 Nikki Cox and Vanessa Marcil
Law and Order: Criminal Intent "Courtship" (7x04) 2007 Lola Glaudini and Amanda Detmer
Life "Dig a Hole: Part 1" (1x10) 2007 Sarah Shahi and unknown
Masters of Horror "Sick Girl" (1x10) 2006 Angela Bettis and Misty Mundae
Masters of Horror "Pelts" (2x06) 2006 Ellen Ewusie and Melissa Gonzalez
Masters of Horror "Valerie on the Stairs" (2x08) 2006 Clare Grant and Suki Kaiser
Melrose Place "Pilot" (1x01) 2009 Katie Cassidy and unknown
New Adventures of Old Christine, The "Playdate with Destiny" (2x07) 2006 Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Wanda Sykes
New Adventures of Old Christine, The "Unidentified Funk" (4x11) 2008 Julia Louis-Dreyfus,Megan Mullally and Wanda Sykes
North Shore pilot episode 2004 Brittany Daniel and unknown
North Shore "Ties That Bind 2004 Krista Kalmus and Marika Dominczyk
O.C., The "The SnO.C. 2004 Olivia Wilde and unknown
O.C., The "The Ex-Factor 2005 Olivia Wilde and Emmanuelle Chriqui
O.C., The "The Lonely Hearts Club 2005 Olivia Wilde and Mischa Barton
O.C., The "The Rainy Day Women 2005 Olivia Wilde and Mischa Barton
Once and Again "The Gay-Straight Alliance 2002 Evan Rachel Wood and Mischa Barton
Once and Again "Experience is the Teacher 2002 Evan Rachel Wood and Mischa Barton
Outer Limits, The "Caught in the Act" (1x17) 1996 Alyssa Milano and Sarah Strange
Outer Limits, The "Lithia" (4x17) 1998 Kirsten Williamson and Nadia Capone
Over There "Situation Normal 2005 Nicki Aycox and Cathryn De Prume
Painkiller Jane "Portraits of Lauren Gray(1x10) 2007 Kristanna Loken and Meghan Ory
Party of Five "I'll Show You Mine" 1999 Neve Campbell and Olivia d'Abo
Passions 2005-08-31 episode 2005 Cathy Jeneén Doe and Jossara Jinaro
Picket Fences "Sugar and Spice" (1x21) 1993 Holly Marie Combs and Alexondra Lee
Quintuplets "Shakespeare In Lust 2005 April Matson and Danica Stewart
Relativity "The Day the EarthMoved 1997 Lisa Edelstein and Kristin Dattilo
Rescue Me "Believe" (2x08) 2006 Callie Thorne and Brette Taylor
Saturday Night Live Season 28, Episode 12 2003 Jennifer Garner and Rachel Dratch
Saturday Night Live Season 32, Episode 14 2003 Maya Rudolph and Amy Poehler
Scrubs "My Best Friend's Mistake" (1x03) 2001 Sarah Chalke and unknown
Scrubs "My Cold Shower" (6x19) 2007 Sarah Chalke and Judy Reyes
Shark "Love Triangle" (1x08) 2006 Caitlin Wachs and Mycale Guyton
Shark "One Hit Wonder" (2x15) 2008 Mädchen Amick and Lisa Sheridan
Smallville "Facade 2004 Kristin Kreuk and Brianna Brown
Spin City "She's Gotta Habit 2001 Heather Locklear and Denise Richards
Stacked "Two Faces of Eve" (2x02) 2005 Pamela Anderson and Jenny McCarthy
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine "Rejoined" (4x06) 1995 Terry Farrell and Susannah Thompson
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine "The Emperor's New Cloak 1999 Nicole de Boer and Nana Visitor
Star Trek: Enterprise "Rajiin 2003 Jolene Blalock,Nikita Ager and Linda Park
That '80s Show "Pilot Episode 2002 Brittany Daniel and Tinsley Grimes
Tru Calling "Star Crossed 2003 Melissa Lee and Rachael Bella
Twilight Zone, The "ep: Sensuous Cindy 2002 Jaime Pressly and Tiffany Knight
Ugly Betty "A Tree Grows in Guadalajara" (1x22) 2007 Rebecca Romijn and Rebecca Gayheart
Will and Grace "ep: Hocus Focus" (4x23) 2002 Glenn Close and Debra Messing
Will and Grace "The Kid Stays Outof the Picture 2002 Debra Messing and Megan Mullally
Wire in the Blood "Shadows Rising: Part 1" (1x03) 2002 Doon Mackichan and Lou Gish
Xena: Warrior Princess "The God You Know 2001 Renée O'Connor and Alexandra Tydings
Xena: Warrior Princess "Friend in Need, part 2 2001 Lucy Lawless and Renée O'Connor

The editor who built the majority of this article was blocked for socking. I don't have much comment on the list in totality, other than what's the source for all this?, but will comment specifically on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. If the definition in the lead is the one the examples have to adhere to, Buffy does not qualify. Both relationships Willow/Tara and Willow/Kennedy were long-term relationships, and the displays of affection not used for ratings, nor to titillate viewers. Willow and Tara's first kiss onscreen was actually downplayed and not advertised by the network. Both relationships showed the characters consistently affectionate toward each other. Sources treat Willow's relationships as the opposite of what is described in a "lesbian kiss episode". --Moni3 (talk) 19:54, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Source for the list above is [4] minus anything that isn't network TV. I have also seen most of the episodes, and have them available to double check if there's any doubt about their contents. One episode of Buffy was actually mentioned in the NY Times piece that is the main source for this article, which kind of highlights the core issues with this whole article. Siawase (talk) 12:50, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
There are books about homosexuality in the media (Tropiano, Stephen (2002). Prime Time Closet: A History of Gays and Lesbians on TV, Applause Theater and Cinema Books ISBN 1-55783-557-8), (Streitmatter, Rodger (2009). From 'Perverts' to 'Fab Five': The Media's Changing Depiction of Gay Men and Lesbians, Routledge. ISBN 0-7890-3670-3) to name two, that would be far better sources than clublez. In fact, were this lest based solely on the clublez source, that would be excellent grounds to delete the list from Wikipedia. It's not a reliable source.
As for Buffy, even the New York Times is apparently wrong in not only including Buffy and specifically "The Body" episode as examples but an image ran at the top of the article of Hannigan and Limon to illustrate the concept of a lesbian kiss episode. But including Willow defies their own description of what a lesbian kiss episode is, and that's sourced by dozens of books, journal, and newspaper articles. It actually weakens their point to include Buffy among the examples. It makes me think the NYT article author doesn't know what she's talking about.
The list needs better sources. It needs book and journal sources. Clublez is a starting point for the talk page, but it should never be used to justify any information in article space. Are you willing to go to the library to check out books that discuss one-off sweeps-grabbing girl kiss stunts where one of the characters either leaves or dies, and everyone is nice and straight afterward? That's what needs to be done. --Moni3 (talk) 14:09, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
The bulk of the list in the article now is unsourced/sourced only to the shows themselves. If consensus is that this is a good idea, I can independently verify the entries in the list above against the original episodes and then expand the list.
I would however prefer to trim the list in the article back to entries that have references that specifically mention them as including a lesbian kiss as a ratings grab, but consensus so far has been that building the list based only on primary sources is fine. Siawase (talk) 16:14, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Consensus never trumps WP:PRIMARY, and I think the consensus here is more like the usual article that is not watched by regular editors--one of chance and coincidence. If you intend to improve the article using reliable secondary sources, wonderful. No, really. Freakin' awesome. The NYT definition of what a lesbian kiss episode is is a great starting place. I hope other reliable sources can corroborate their definition or include one of their own. You may have to actively maintain the list, though. Many of the examples added are one-off examples added by individuals each at a time. I suspect they'll return to make sure the episode in question is added, not knowing much about WP:RS or WP:PRIMARY.--Moni3 (talk) 16:36, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
So we're basically in agreement that maintaining the list as is, based mainly on primary sources is a bad idea? I think if the list is trimmed back to only sourced entries, it can be turned into well sourced prose that explains each example. This would likely be much easier to maintain than a largely unsourced table which is a screaming invitation for passers-by to add more entries. I'm not really interested in expanding/improving the article beyond some basic cleanup of the worst WP:OR and WP:POV issues. I still think (I explained at length in the deletion discussion) that in the interest of WP:NPOV this article would be better merged into Media portrayal of lesbianism and the issues explained in a larger context. (And using higher quality sources.) Siawase (talk) 17:32, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
Anyone looking to improve this list with better sources has my sweet, sweet love and best wishes to do so. I think there's more room to improve the explanation of what a lesbian kiss episode is (or is not, per the Buffy example) and the way that lesbianism is used to titillate during sweeps. The books I mentioned previously cover some of that. I used those books to write the Lesbian article's Media representation section, but they're library books and I don't have access to them anymore...I think. I might be able to get access to another library, but I'm in the middle of other projects and blah blah whine whine. --Moni3 (talk) 20:51, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure if the sources I'm looking to use are "better" per se (I can't access the books you mentioned) but they represent different points of view. I mentioned some of them here[5]. Links: [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] also this [11] [12] Siawase (talk) 04:58, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Those are far better than clublez for sure. I suppose we have to think in small steps here. This is a relatively new phenomena in media--at least since 1991. Ideally, it would be perfection to find a journal or book to give us a definition with examples and non-examples, as we could base the list on that definition. What we have now is a mostly comprehensive definition with a few examples and a bad example included. But the Guardian story kind of backs up the NYT definition, so that's ok. What we have to be wary of is going nuts with WP:SYNTH by making connections between sources when the sources themselves do not make the connection. Anything involving homosexuality, as I'm sure you know, gets more scrutiny. I actually may have access to the aforementioned books, but not for a while. A few weeks or so. I just did a search on JSTOR for "lesbian kiss television episode" and a lot of stuff came up from peer-reviewed journals, but that's any article that includes all four of those words but not necessarily in that order. A few of them concentrate only on Will and Grace or the L Word. I'd have to read through them all to get a sense of what they're really about. I can do a little at a time if you're also willing to work on it. --Moni3 (talk) 23:40, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
OK, if I wasn't clear enough earlier, I never intended to use clublez as a source. I checked out a few of the JSTOR articles, and just at a glance they look to be of far higher quality than the NY Times piece. I still have severe misgivings about the POV issues with this article. Would the L-Word material you mentioned even have a place here? The hypothesis that the whole article rests on (based on the NY Times piece) is supposed to only apply to broadcast television. Would examples where physical intimacy was deliberately excluded/cut from a series/episode have a place here? And of course anything outside the US is off-limits by definition. Or just take the Roseanne example, it had a pretty complex backstory that is laid out in the article on the episode. It certainly wasn't conceived as a cash-in ratings ploy (and ABC initially kept it off air because they expected to lose ad revenue) but here it's just listed as one simple ratings grab among all the others. Most of which don't fit the criteria anyway, since there is no documentation of them ever being promoted as "lesbian kiss episodes" in the first place, so how can they be rating ploys if no one knew about it before they aired? /Sorry, got into a bit of a rant there. Siawase (talk) 06:53, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


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