Talk:Homeopathy

UK House of Commons Science and Technology Committee's Evidence Check: Homeopathy

The "Evidence Check" by the UK House of Commons Science and Technology Committee into the evidence regarding homoeopathy is probably the most thorough examination of the subject by any scientific government body, and has resulted in the most authoritative mainstream scientific consensus statements ever written. I have never seen such a total debunking of homeopathy from any scientific government source. There was an abundance of sources used, with the full weight of all homeopathic organizations represented, and with them providing the majority of the testimony submitted. They cannot claim that they were not heard. They presented the best they have. Skeptics also weighed in.

These sources need to be gone through with a fine tooth comb, as they are all V & RS:

• Evidence Check 2: Homeopathy, Fourth Report of Session 2009–10

• CONTENTS: Evidence Check: Homeopathy

The scientifically validated entries came from these skeptical sources (and possibly others). The skeptics' entries are RS for the opinions of notable skeptics, and can be used as such if there is need for some of the ideas they express:

• Memorandum submitted by the Dental Practitioners Association HO 01

• Memorandum submitted by Professor David Colquhoun HO02

• Memorandum submitted by Professor John C McLachlan HO 06

• Memorandum submitted by Les Rose HO 10

• Memorandum submitted by Dr Andy Lewis HO 11

• Memorandum submitted by Edzard Ernst HO 16

• Supplementary memorandum submitted by Edzard Ernst HO 16a

• Supplementary memorandum submitted by Professor Edzard Ernst HO 16b

• Memorandum submitted by Professor Vincent Marks HO 19

• Memorandum submitted by Sense About Science HO36

• Memorandum submitted by Dr Ben Goldacre

• Memorandum submitted by the Science Council HO 42

The rest are from believers who do their best to whitewash homeopathy and twist the weak or even debunked "evidence" into something they call "favorable". Ernst does a very good job of picking their "evidence" apart. The believer's entries are RS for the opinions of notable believers, and can be used as such if there is need for some of the ideas they express.

The BMA's entry is a very short, weak and pitiful statement that reveals a spineless approach, and which also reveals that they are attempting to protect their members' ability to make money, regardless of the evidence. That's political medicine, not scientific medicine. Their entry seems to have been written by someone with a spin doctor's mentality. A sad situation. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:39, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

• There's some quality sarcasm in there, isn't there? Guy (Help!) 19:40, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

• I wish I could claim that ;-) Unfortunately there doesn't seem to have been much "active ingredient" that could have been diluted to a "weak" version.... Medical societies like the BMA and AMA are primarily political organizations, and only secondarily scientific ones. If they really did take a strong stand, like the AMA did with chiropractic, it would firstly be for political reasons, and secondly (if the science backed up their political agenda, as it did against chiropractic) for scientific reasons. (See Wilk v. American Medical Association). OTOH, members of those societies can be very active promoters of science, with skeptics being the most vocal promoters of the scientific POV. They are the ones who take the scientific POV to the trenches where it is being disputed and scorned. Other scientists and MDs who aren't in the trenches hardly feel or realize there is a war of lies being waged against them and their POV, which is the same scientific POV as the one being advocated by their activist skeptical colleagues. It takes cases like the Simon Singh lawsuit to bring ordinary MDs and scientists out into the streets to support their activist colleagues. The British Chiropractic Association shot themselves in the foot in a big way that will really hurt their profession. When one lives in a glass house, one should not cast stones. They attacked, and their lack of evidence has been exposed. The emperor has no clothes. - Brangifer (talk) 05:42, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Assertion of OR

An editor has tagged as WP:OR the statement "10⁻⁶⁰ Dilution advocated by Hahnemann for most purposes: on average, this would require giving two billion doses per second to six billion people for 4 billion years to deliver a single molecule of the original material to any patient". It is not clear what he considers to be research as opposed to arithmetic. The calculation is simply: 1e-60*2e9*6e9*4e9*365*24*60*60*6e23 ~= 0.9 Perhaps the implicit "when starting with one mol of original material" should be made explicit? User:LeadSongDog come howl 14:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Or maybe find a source that says something similar. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen some funny descriptions of homeopathic dilutions in the writings of Drs. Harriet Hall and Stephen Barrett. Unfortunately I can’t seem to conjure any of them up at the moment. — NRen2k5^(TALK), 06:56, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I have requested an explanation from him, but he's not responding, so I'm going to remove the tag. That doesnt' mean that the content can't be improved. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:06, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Strong Bias?

I see that many users have expressed their disagrement with the article point's of view. why only the negative part of the reviews and references are being used?

From the archives of your forum there are users who write correctly that the Shang reviews ( "negative" for Homeopathy ) were *heavily* criticized by a large numbers of researchers, including Linde, Ludtke, Rutten, Frass, Bellavite and others. Linde and Ludtde are extensively quoted for debunking Homeopathy but not when they object to the Lancet that : "Given these limitations, Shang and colleagues' conclusion that their findings “provide support to the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects” is a significant overstatement."..." The conclusion that physicians should tell their patients that “homoeopathy has no benefit” and that “the time has passed for … further investment in research” is not backed at all by the data. "

This is not a neutral approach. Read the britannica entry ( Homeopathy )to see the difference.Greetings. --70.88.10.190 (talk) 01:19, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't confuse our WP:NPOV policy for neutrality. While Wikipedia itself has no opinion, articles are required to document all significant opinions found in verifiable and reliable sources (V & RS), and give weight to them according to their "fringeness". The scientific consensus is very clear, so their POV gets more weight. That naturally reveals the existing bias that exists among reliable sources. The latest is rather astounding. See below for the British House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:58, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

This is not honest: If the one sided anti homeopathy bias appearing in these sources requires the complete elimination of the other side which is published in the same sources ( Linde case for instance)of course it should not be adopted at least to justify this elimination. This is not the spirit of WP NPOV.--70.88.10.190 (talk) 09:57, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

If well founded, scientifically based sources that support Homeopathy are available they can be added. The 'bias' in the article is simply a reflection of the studies that have been done and are properly sourced. Bevo74 (talk) 12:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Since Linde's meta-analysis (“Linde 1997”) is used as a source in the article I guess you're complaining about not using “Linde 2005”. Whether you like it or not, this is a matter of weight. “Linde 2005” isn't a new study but a comment on the meta-analysis Shang et al. did. Comments aren't subject to peer review, so they're not a reliable source per WP:MEDRS.--Six words (talk) 14:45, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

British House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report

In the United Kingdom, MPs inquired into homeopathy to assess the Government's policy on the issue, including funding of homeopathy under the National Health Service and government policy for licensing homeopathic products. The decision by the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee follows a written explanation from the Government in which it told the select committee that the licensing regime was not formulated on the basis of scientific evidence. "The three elements of the licensing regime (for homeopathic products) probably lie outside the scope of the ... select committee inquiry, because government consideration of scientific evidence was not the basis for their establishment," the Committee said. The inquiry sought written evidence and submissions from concerned parties.

In February 2010 the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee concluded that:

... the NHS should cease funding homeopathy. It also concludes that the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) should not allow homeopathic product labels to make medical claims without evidence of efficacy. As they are not medicines, homeopathic products should no longer be licensed by the MHRA.

The Committee concurred with the Government that the evidence base shows that homeopathy is not efficacious (that is, it does not work beyond the placebo effect) and that explanations for why homeopathy would work are scientifically implausible.

The Committee concluded - given that the existing scientific literature showed no good evidence of efficacy - that further clinical trials of homeopathy could not be justified.

In the Committee’s view, homeopathy is a placebo treatment and the Government should have a policy on prescribing placebos. The Government is reluctant to address the appropriateness and ethics of prescribing placebos to patients, which usually relies on some degree of patient deception. Prescribing of placebos is not consistent with informed patient choice-which the Government claims is very important-as it means patients do not have all the information needed to make choice meaningful.

Beyond ethical issues and the integrity of the doctor-patient relationship, prescribing pure placebos is bad medicine. Their effect is unreliable and unpredictable and cannot form the sole basis of any treatment on the NHS.

The Committee also stated:

"We conclude that placebos should not be routinely prescribed on the NHS. The funding of homeopathic hospitals — hospitals that specialise in the administration of placebos — should not continue, and NHS doctors should not refer patients to homeopaths."

---

That's pretty powerful language from such an authoritative source. It's time for believers in homeopathy to show that they can learn and change their opinions. Otherwise they are true believers. For more, see this section above. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:58, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

why the article is not neutral- explanation

The scientific consensus is not very clear. If it were clear other encyclopedias like Britannica would heave adopt it. I read above that NCCAM ( American ) does not share this view as well. They accept that there is some inconclusive evidence for homeopathy and they do refund Homeopathy's research which is important.

This is not about weight. The writers of the article have not included very significant members of the Scientific Community who as active researchers published in major medical journals ( Lancet ) object to this point of view ( debunking homeopathy). You could have included their opinion in the article at least. But you don't even refer to these passages.

So you did not address my concerns and other users concerns about the neutrality of the current approach.You are repeating the one sided view.

Articles from different major reliable sources which have a different point of view on Homeopathy have been completely excluded. As I said these researchers are quoted only when they write negatively about the subject. --70.88.10.190 (talk) 03:37, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Have a look at reference 3 below, Evidence check: Homeopathy, House of Commons Science and Technology Committee, 20 October 2009, parliament.uk. Verbal chat 08:20, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

It seems that the problem with this discussion is that people don't rationally respond to what has been said or argued. There is a "I did hear what you said" thing. It is evident from the archives. I just asked for the second or third time why the previous important sources have been completely eliminated instead of given a limited space and weight and I get not response. --70.88.10.190 (talk) 09:38, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The scientific consensus is extremely clear. There is no evidence of any effect beyond a (subjective) placebo effect. (There is no evidence of any significant objective effects from the placebo effect.) It's a "pure placebo", so it's unethical to use it on humans outside of a research setting, but it would be the ideal placebo in laboratory research. As a placebo it would only "work" if all subjects receiving it believed it was an active treatment. If they knew it was homeopathic, then some of them, knowing that homeopathy is a placebo, would not be deceived and therefore it wouldn't work as a placebo for them. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:15, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

The scientific consensus is not clear. NACCAM reports under controversies that "However, there are some individual observational studies, randomized placebo-controlled trials, and laboratory research that report positive effects or unique physical and chemical properties of homeopathic remedies." They also state that they refund homeopathy while the Lancet through Shang says that there is no reason for more research since it is all placebo and impossible. Its kind of funny you dont want to accept that this is a controversial issue and that there is not clear consensus. The sources you are using state that not me --69.125.7.24 (talk) 21:21, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't invalidate the accurate reporting of the scientific consensus. Indeed, it would be unusual if there weren't some individual observational studies, randomized placebo-controlled trials, and laboratory research that had positive outcomes. The fact is, when taken together and properly weighted, homeopathy is found to have no effect above placebo, and is contrary to accepted scientific principles. By the way, have you previously had or currently have an account? Verbal chat (UTC)

What you say is only one interpretation of the reviews on Homeopathy. Other organizations like NACCAM as you see above hold a different view which for some reason has been eliminated. You keep reporting from NACCAM only the part you agree with. The other part about " positive effects or unique physical and chemical properties of homeopathic remedies and the fact that they fund research for Homeopathy is not reported. That;s all.--69.125.7.24 (talk) 21:35, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Please see the NCCAM article. It should be apparent to any independent reader that the organization exists for purely political reasons, not scientific ones.User:LeadSongDog come howl 21:45, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Why don't you object to the use of NACCAM quotes in the article (when these are used to debunk Homeopathy) then?--69.125.7.24 (talk) 21:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any other objections. I will add this to the article later.--69.125.7.24 (talk) 21:33, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

You will probably find that your changes will be reverted because it's quite clear that you haven't achieved any consensus for your proposed changes. Can I suggest that you put your proposal here on the talk page for "buy in" from the other editors who frequent this page? That way it can be discussed and consensus achieved. FWIW can I recommend that you get an account? --Shot info (talk) 22:36, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't reply sooner, I've been otherwise occupied. I don't see that the NCCAM cites are used to "debunk" homeopathy, only to show that homeopathic remedies are placebos. If you think placebos don't work, you are simply wrong. Within certain limits they do, and it is well established in the literature. Why some editors here persist in devaluing the placebo effect is mystifying to me. But as a general practice of argumentation it is accepted that when a speaker or writer makes a statement against interest it is more credible than the reverse. That's not specific to wikipedia. If the head of a big pharma company said that Bach flower remedies were effective, that too would carry more credence than if they were touting COX-2 inhibitors. Clear? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeadSongDog (talk • contribs) 22:45, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

You have to provide a rational response to my question above."Why don't you object to the use of NACCAM quotes in the article (when these are used to debunk Homeopathy)? and why you don't want to include its other statements about homeopathy;s efficacy and research in the article. --69.125.7.24 (talk) 23:03, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

What part of my response above do you consider to be irrational? By my reading I responded directly to your question. Perhaps I'm missing the citation you find problematic: it would help if you would identify it.User:LeadSongDog come howl 04:12, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

[undent] 69.125.7.24 - you say "the scientific consensus is not clear"; however, if you look at the whole of the paragraph from which you took your quotation, you'll find it expressed there, albeit with something of a positive spin: "Most analyses of the research on homeopathy have concluded that there is little evidence to support homeopathy as an effective treatment for any specific condition, and that many of the studies have been flawed." There will always be a few apparently positive results even for a completely ineffective therapy. the fact that there are a few in favour of homoeopathy does not negate the rest of the evidence. Brunton (talk) 17:35, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

I hate to repeat myself, but the scientific consensus is extremely clear. There is no evidence of any effect beyond the subjective placebo effect. You need to read the section above: Talk:Homeopathy#British_House_of_Commons_Science_and_Technology_Committee_report. There the British House of Commons Science and Technology Committee has made it very clear, and has recommended that all support for homeopathy be withdrawn. NCCAM happens to be a political group whose funding is based on them finding positive results for alternative medicine. All they have produced is negative results in almost all studies conducted over ten years at a cost of $2.5 billion! R. Barker Bausell, a research methods expert and author of "Snake Oil Science" states that "it's become politically correct to investigate nonsense."[1] Needless to say, their days are numbered. They just happen to be behind the curve in relation to the Brits. Even our own NPOV policy, in the section about Pseudoscience and related fringe theories, ends with these words:

• "Pseudoscience usually relies mainly on weak evidence, such as anecdotal evidence or weak statistical evidence at just above the level of detection, though it may have a few papers with positive results, for example: parapsychology and homeopathy."

Those words are an added justification for why this article is placed in the Category:Pseudoscience. It fits the qualifications described in group 2 higher up in that section:

• "Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience."

There is no question that homeopathy is "generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community". If it had a proven effect beyond the subjective placebo effect, we wouldn't have this discussion. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Is this a meaningful and good faith conversation? I m asking a specific question and instead of responding to what has been asked and/or said you keep repeating the same thing. You have to respond to what has been asked and argued and in order to make some progress.--69.125.7.24 (talk) 21:42, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality - trying again

So lets try again.

The Lancet through Shang says that there is no reason for more research since it is all placebo and impossible and no research is needed.

Nacam website states the following "Most analyses of the research on homeopathy have concluded that there is little evidence to support homeopathy as an effective treatment for any specific condition, and that many of the studies have been flawed."However, there are some individual observational studies, randomized placebo-controlled trials, and laboratory research that report positive effects or unique physical and chemical properties of homeopathic remedies." Nacam supports homeopathy's research they pay for it. Also prominent researchers, who are quoted in this article, say in the Lancet that while homeopathy has not been proved as a therapy "Shang and colleagues's conclusion that their findings “provide support to the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects” is a significant overstatement."..." The conclusion that "physicians should tell their patients that “homoeopathy has no benefit” and that “the time has passed for … further investment in research” is not backed at all by the data. "

These are different views. Clearly.

The view expressed by NACAM and Linde is not in the article. Why? It is a simple question.--69.125.7.24 (talk) 22:11, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

So? Propose the change that you wish to make, otherwise these discussions can be deleted per WP:TALK because they are not improving the article. Shot info (talk) 22:53, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't delete my comments again. Not kind. --69.125.7.24 (talk) 23:01, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

References

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