Talk:Elgin Marbles

kwl

Move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RegentsPark (talk • contribs) 14:37, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Elgin Marbles → Parthenon Marbles — More google hits.

1. Contrary to what was cited by Akhileas the most common usage is the Parthenon marbles not the Elgin Marbles. See the number of google hits. EM scores [700k] whereas PM scores 2500K with all entries refering to the same collection of sculptures.
2. According to this economist article the most common name is Parthenon Marbles, ie the article clearly states that this is the most common name.

Mercouri’s pleas to officials in London were ignored, but she scored two successes. First, the fifth-century-BC sculptures that Lord Elgin, a British diplomat, removed from the Acropolis temples in 1801-05 and later sold to the BM have become more widely known as the Parthenon marbles—the name chosen by Mercouri to highlight where they came from.

--Xenovatis (talk) 16:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

• Very strongly oppose as political correctness, based on raw google scores. The Economist article cited begins with the late Melina Mercouri... decided to make her mark in politics by campaigning for the return of the Elgin marbles from the British Museum because that way ordinary monoglot anglophones will understand them. So does their editorial (to which they link). I believe that the expression cited was intended to mean that "Parthenon marbles", however inaccurate, is more common than it used to be (which is clearly the case), not more common than the established expression.

Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

You are second guessing the Economist. I reposrted on what they specifically and directly wrote. That is just flimsy. Now look again at the number of google hits.--Xenovatis (talk) 04:34, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Read this

• Oppose. "Elgin Marbles" is the common name IMHO. Aubergine (talk) 03:21, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

As you can see it most certainly isn't.--Xenovatis (talk) 04:32, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Given the closing "IMHO", thank you for informing me what my opinion isn't. Aubergine (talk) 20:29, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

You will not be surprised to know that no-one particularly cares about your opinion unless there are facts and arguments to back it up.--Anothroskon (talk) 13:04, 11 July 2009 (UTC) But then again you might be.--Anothroskon (talk) 13:05, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

• Strong support. I honestly do not understand what Sept means by political correctness which is based on raw google scores! "Parthenon marbles" is not politically correct; it is simply a) more common; b) more accurate. The marbles do not belong to Elgin! Neither are they made by him! Centuries ago they belonged to Parthenon, being a part of it. Therefore, google research is indeed just a tool; we do not jugde based solely on google(-web, -book, -scholar) researches, but we do have the right to use it. Now, in terms of google book research the results are too close to call (2,759 vs 2,850) and one has to go through each book to check if this first figure is indeed accurate, or if the combinations are random and do not absolutely reflect reality (Parthenon or Elgin mentioned at the top of the page, and "marbles" somewhere at the end).
  In any case, even if we can discuss about common use (although I think nobody can deny that "Parthenon marbles" is starting to prevail), I insist that in terms of accuracy "Elgin marbles" is encyclopedically wrong, echoing perceptions and ideas of the last century about ownership of cultural goods—the marbles do not belong to Elgin; they are a cultural heritage belonging to humanity etc. Wherever these marbles are (and I do not get to the substance of the Greek-British conflict, where I have no proble to admit that legally UK has the right on its side [but maybe not culturally]), their connection is a) culturally, b) historically, c) encyclopedically first and foremost with Parthenon; and definitely not with Elgin. Thus "Parthenon marbles" is the only title which does not serve POVs, political interests, and political correctness.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The present name does not assert Elgin's title, any more than any conventional name. The proposed name was expressly devised to serve a political purpose; as it happens, I tend to agree that it is a just political purpose, which the effort to change has served badly. The effort to rename has been even less successful in getting them back to Greece than in complicating English usage. Surely it would be more useful to keep the image of a minor Scotch peer bribing and bluffing Turkish bureaucrats front and center in these discussions. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:01, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The effort (if there was ever such a systematic effort, which I seriously doubt [especially after Merkouri's death], but this is not our issue here) to bring the marbles to Greece was not influenced IMO by the success or not of the "renaming". I don't know if Merkouri did it for political reasons or because she sincerely believed "Elgin marbles" is wrong, and it is not my interest to judge, but the term she promoted, "Parthenon marbles", is (again IMO) more accurate, and I am happy it prevails; so wherever she did for the wrong or the right reasons, she promoted something more accurate in terms of history and culture. I see no reason to have the name of a "minor Scotch peer bribing and bluffing" next to the marbles, and I do not want people reading the article to make primarily the connection between Elgin and the marbles; I want them primarily to make the connection between Parthenon and the marbles; which is after all consistent with the cultural and historical reality: these marbles belonged for many centuries to the Parthenon, and as a cultural heritage they will always belong to it (despite the results of commercial transactions, diplomatic manoeuvres, or state propagandas); they briefly belonged to Elgin as a result of a commercial transaction. In any case, it is clear that we "strongly" disagree. Therefore, let's wait for more input by other users, who will judge our arguments!--Yannismarou (talk) 14:34, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

1. If one runs a Google search ignoring wikipedia and mirror sites (-wiki) the results are even more glaring. Elgin at 250K and Perthenon at 1,500K hits.
2. In addition I would point readers to the above linked WP page on Naming Conflicts where the No. of google hits is cited as the first of possible means of determining popularity. Thanks.
3. Incidentally the marbles are know in Greek as "Τα Ελγίνεια" though of course this is not the Greek WP.--Xenovatis (talk) 15:38, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The effort to reunite still continues according to this link, which I copy from above. Note that the BBC does not use, or mention, the proposed name, although they have a perfect context to do so if they believed it communicated with anyone. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:48, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) No reason to change. I think this argument is always likely to be split along nationalistic lines, Greek-influenced editors supporting "Pathenon" and British-influenced supporting "Elgin". Where everyone else stands, I don't know, but Britannica uses "Elgin Marbles" as does CNN and the New York Times in the articles I've read. Interestingly, other Wikipedias use "Elgin". Hippo (talk) 15:50, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The NYTimes uses both equally 1, 2. CNN does use EM more (10 hits) but also uses PM (3 hits).--Anothroskon (talk) 18:51, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• Strongest possible oppose: In the English-speaking world (and this is En Wikipedia don't forget) they are known as the Elgin Marbles, period, end of story. – ukexpat (talk) 16:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• Comment: It should be pointed out that as a search string "parthenon marbles" doesn't distinguish between "Parthenon Marbles", "parthenon, marbles", "Parthenon/marbles", "parthenon. Marbles" and "parthenon - marbles". None of which necessarily mean the same thing. Also, since when did google encompass the totality of human discourse? Twospoonfuls (ειπέ) 17:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

1. Good point but it also applies to "Elgin Marbles" so the end result is the same.
2. It doesn't but that is not the point. It is listed as one of the ways in which to decide naming conflitcs and as the first one at that. The name Parthenon Marbles has also been used by the CNN, NYTimes and Economist among others. --Anothroskon (talk) 18:41, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. Just reading the Britannica article more fully, not all the "Marbles" were from the Parthenon, so "Parthenon Marbles" may be inaccurate as a description:

Elgin Marbles (Greek sculpture): collection of ancient Greek sculptures and architectural details in the British Museum, London, where they are now called the Parthenon Sculptures. The objects were removed from the Parthenon at Athens and from other ancient buildings and shipped to England by arrangement of Thomas Bruce, 7th Lord Elgin, who was British ambassador to the Ottoman Empire (1799–1803).

(emphasis added) I see the British Museum uses "Parthenon Sculptures", but that doesn't mean we should be inaccurate too. Hippo (talk) 20:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Elgin Marbles

Although Elgin Marbles might be a really controversial name, Parthenon Marbles is no way more accurate, as the marbles in question kept in the B.M. and brought by Lord Elgin, include, among others, a Caryatid from the Erehtheion, a temple close to the Parthenon, and fragments from the temple of Athina Niki. Not all "Parthenon" Marbles originally decorated the Parthenon!!! This cannot be a suitable name for theses sculptures! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Username entered not in use (talk • contribs) 15:38, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to interupt but one thing should be made clear.There is a great deal of information about cleaning the marbles -and the damage done -by the British of course...but people should understand that the original marbles -as with all Ancient Greek sculpture were all painted in bright hideous colours making them look like fairground waxworks and completely hideous to our eyes. When found a thousand years after their creation the paint had flked off and the whiteness of the stone reflected ideals of Christianity that revealed the divine pure nature of the human spirit The creators of all Greek sculpture would be horrified if they saw them unpainted today regarding them as unfiished lumps of rock It can therefore be said that the Elgin marbles and other Greek statuary has absolutely No connection with ancient Greece and itis irrelevant where they are kept -though the misty calmness and quiet of the British Museum brings out their spirituality a thousand times more than that dreadful airport terminal building the Greeks have built for them and to which hopefully they will never be returned —Preceding unsigned comment added by Winston1911 (talk • contribs) 21:34, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

$

Interesting how the motive for profit from tourism is not counted in as a rationale for keeping or sending off the ancient artifacts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.113.143 (talk) 07:44, 8 April 2010 (UTC)