Talk:Yue Chinese

白話

白話 is Cantonese, not Yue, correct? That is, is Taishanese considered 白話? — kwami (talk) 19:54, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

No it's actually quite the opposite - 白話 used in the context of Cantonese is what you'd call the prestigious/"accurate" Cantonese dialect - i.e. Guangzhou. This dialect is spoken with little variation in Nanning and Hong Kong. But in the greater context, 白話 simply means "vernacular"; that is, as opposed to "literary" or "incomprehensible". So in any given situation 白話 could mean something different - i.e. someone from Maoming, Dongguang could call their own language 白話 while speaking to their family members to indicate an in-group context (we speak 白話, outsiders speak another type of 話). Regardless, no GZ/HK dialect speaker will ever call Taishanese 白話, because it is not very intelligible to them - to the point that it has a well-established separate identity. Taishanese is thus not considered 白話. However, to my knowledge there is no other Cantonese (Yue) dialect that has established itself with such a strong separate identity. Everyone else basically thinks they're speaking in "Cantonese", i.e. 廣東話、粵語. Colipon+(Talk) 04:57, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. That's more or less what I corrected the article to; I just didn't want to miscorrect it. I'll also change the trans. of 白話 to "vernacular", as that should be more informative than a literal gloss. — kwami (talk) 07:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

The article refers to 白话 as used by in Guangxi and Guangdong, in Guangxi 白话 in this context refers to the Guangzhou lect which is also spoken in Guangxi in areas along tributaries of the Perl River and the coast, in this context it does not mean "vernacular" . "vernacular" is another use of term 白话 to give it as a translation is to say the least confusing. The meaning of 白话 within the context of the article is clear including another meaning is leaving the topic, there is now a link to 白话 in the wiktionary for those who wish to understand more the various meanings of 白话.Johnkn63 (talk) 07:32, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

白話: Originally towards the end of the 19th century, there was a 白話 (Bai Hua) movement amongst students and educationalists. Note the Bai Hua was the vernacular of the North, ie modern day Putonghua. The demand was for the use of Bai Hua (the vernacular or plain straight forward speech) in written as well as spoken communications rather than Guan Hua (Speech of Officialdom), so that education could be brought to the masses and masses of poor and ordinary people. Thus the pronunciation of Chinese characters in Bai Hua and Guan Hua are the same, just that Guan Hua was the reading and speaking out of the written literary Chinese characters. In the Guangzhouhuaphone area it was quite natural to read "Bai Hua" in the Guangzhouhua pronunciation "Baak Wa", so for Guangzhouhua speakers Baak Wa refers to natural spoken Guangzhouhua, rather than reading out formal literary-style Chinese characters in Guangzhouhua pronunciations.

Okay, I didn't think it was a synonym for "Yue". Perhaps it should be deleted altogether, or moved to Cantonese if it isn't there already.

But once again, how many more times are you going to change the title of this article? 86.177.122.226 (talk) 01:02, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

None at all. The article was at an improper name; people fought over all other possible names; it was left at a temporary improper name until 'Cantonese' was sorted out; there was consensus to move to the current title but multiple fights in carrying out that consensus. Now that all that is finished, the article should be stable. — kwami (talk) 01:28, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

白话 is not really a name for Yue, so I'm not sure what it explains to the reader, but no biggie.

Also, we say that 廣東話 is used by "Cantonese" emigres abroad. However, it's not clear what we mean by "Cantonese". Is it a term used by Taishanese, who make up the bulk of the overseas Yue community? And does it mean both Cantonese and Taishanese if it is? — kwami (talk) 08:36, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

The section "Names" though it rambles a little is acceptable, it is as you say the phrase "Cantonese immigrants abroad" which is unclear and should be clarified by someone who is clear what it means. Johnkn63 (talk) 15:43, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Mr Kwami, "we" are very clear what Cantonese means. It is "you" (Kwami) who do not know what Cantonese means. Mr Kwami please do not confuse yourself with "us". Mr Kwami, the reason why you do not know what Cantonese means is because you are not one of "us". And it is no wonder you do not know what Cantonese means because you simply do not know Cantonese. Please stop messing about with this article. 86.183.82.223 (talk) 00:27, 8 June 2010 (UTC)