Talk:Russian Americans

Russian Americans

If you are a Russian American, we (amongst ourselves) had this classification in place: 1st Wave: Russians who migrated before or during the Russian Revoltuion of 1917. Most of these Russians settled around the east coast; New York, New Jersey, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Florida. They also made their way to Ohio and Illinois. west coast; California, Oregon (these were mostly Old Believer Orthodox Followers). For the most part we were Christians, Russian Orthodox Believers. Also note, we didn't emmigrate, we were not persecuted, and most of all, we had a term which differentiated from the Soviet Russian, We were White Russians[1]. Most do know the Russian language and attend church services. The older generation is dying, the younger generations growing, the younger they are, the less they know the Russian language. 2nd Wave: Russians who migrated from Europe and Asia[2] before or during WW2. Mostly Russian Orthodox Believers. (Oddly enough, the term "2nd wave" was barely used) 3rd Wave: Are Russians who emigrated from the Soviet Union. For the most part, they didn't want to be considered as Russians, and were eager enough to just become Americans. They emigrated mostly to Brighton Beach New York. Later they started to migrate to other destinations; New Jersey, Boston, Miami, California. Most of these Russians were of Jewish descent. 4th Wave: is the newest wave of Russians who left Russia during the 1990's, seeking for a change of life, new jobs, or students at universities. They migrated anywhere possible or where there was a need for them. They were not leaving Russia for being persecuted, so they are of different faiths and religion. Non Classified: These are the Russians who made their way to America prior to all these waves. Fort Ross[3] in California, as an example or Alaska [4]

Most of the Russian American webpages on the net, are generated already by the 4th wave Russians.

>>>Sure not every Russian living in the USA wants to be a "Russian-American". First, I am ethnic Russian. And all my ancestors up to at least five generation back in time were Russians. They called themselves "Russkii", they could speak only one language - "Russkii" and I am sure there were not even other Slavs like Ukrainians or Pols in my family. In 1999, I won the Green Card lottery and since then I and my family living in the USA. But!!! WE ARE NOT AMERICANS! We don't even so-called "Russian-Americans"! We are just Russians who live in America. We were not born in this country, and we are not citizens of this country, so we can't call ourselves even "Naturalized-American". We are Russian-Russians living in the USA. Period. That is about ethnicity. NOT every Russian living in this country consider himself as Russian-American. And Americans also don't call us "Russian-Americans". But just: "Russians". Second, about language. Not every person who can speak English is an American! It is simple-prosto! Look at me. I can read, write and speak English. But I'm not an American. Thus, not everyone who can speak, read or write Russian language is a Russian also. I appreciate that Jews, Armenians, Ukrainians and others people keep speak my language in this country. I have a lot of friends between them, but I never call them "Russian-American". And they also don't call themselves by this strange name. Therefore, this article in Wikipedia MUST to mention all this. --Russkii (talk) 21:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Mentioning "all that" would be WP:UNDUE because the number of russians who live in the USA and refuse citizenship is not that great. --Cubbi (talk) 07:05, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

>>>There is HUGE number of ethnic Russians living in the USA legally, who doesn't want to be a citizen of this country. Because the USA is not allow "double-citizenship". So, everyone who takes "Oath of Loyalty" to this country, must to reject the citizenship of any other country (like Russia). So, everyone who is still maintaining Russian citizenship and did not fill some special form about refusal of Russian citizenship, and/or keeps his Russian passport, after this Oath, consider as an oath-breaker, perjurer. We, real Russians, just don't want to be crooks. Everyone who wants to know how many Russians living in the USA without taking citizenship of this country can make a call to Russian Embassy phone 1-202-298-5700. It will be a number of hundreds of thousands. So, I would like to know where user Cubbi took his information about "not that great" number --Russkii (talk) 21:35, 22 June 2008 (UTC) >>>"Russian American" is a made-up term. There is no such word combination in American Dictionary. It mean that this topic in Wikipedia must to be renamed. "Russians in America" or "Russian-Speaking people in America" will be acceptable.--Russkii (talk) 01:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Just to be clear, are you talking about Russian-born lawful permanent residents of the USA who satisfy the conditions for american citizenship but choose to maintain citizenship of Russian Federation? Yes, these people would be more appropriately called "Russians in America". These people are not within the scope of the Russian American article. All numerical data cited herein refer to the citizens of the USA, not to resident foreign nationals. However, if you have a reliable source on this subject, feel free to add a section on U.S. Russophones who are not Americans. --Cubbi (talk) 13:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Jewish

"Approximately 90% of Russian-speaking Americans are Jewish". Ridiculously high. Even the alleged supporting material (Pravda) only mentions 6 out of 10, and the sample size is the smallest possible. Remove unless cited better. AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 19:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC).

Maybe they were talking about Brighton Beach. BirdValiant 00:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

the great wave of russian immigrants was from 1820 and 1920... more than 90% of russians are Jewish though they speak russian not jewish... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.135.59.100 (talk • contribs) 13:13, November 16, 2006 (UTC)

The article clearly defines RAs as people born in the Russian Empire, the USSR, or the post-1991 Russian Federation - not people whose ancestors were born there. Zapiens 13:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with AnonEMOuse, thats stupid. And this stupidity came from the fact that the USAians mistakenly labled "Russians" everybody who came from Russia. M.V.E.i. 09:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Most Russian Americans are not jewish. Jewish Americans however, do have a lot of central and eastern background

>>>"Russian-Americans" is just a nonsense. Same is about "Jewish-Americans". You can be only a Russian, or an American, or a Jew. An American you can be only if you was born in this country or took a citizenship, then you are a "Naturalized American" and already your are NOT Russians in anyway. Period. If you were not born in this country and did not take a citizenship, then you are still those who you are. Jews, Ukrainians or Kazakhs living in America.--Russkii (talk) 21:15, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Deletion vote

Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Russian Americans. Badagnani 01:08, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

"Notable people" in infobox

Most of the people in the box are very old and do not reflect the latest wave of Russian immigration. Adding someone like Sergey Brin would be ideal. --66.167.203.61 (talk) 23:20, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, Sergei Brin is probably the most well known Russian-American out there. Realistically, I don't think the average person has heard of most of the people shown (Rachmaninoff being the obvious exception). CommanderJamesBond (talk) 06:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I live in L.A. and i can ashure you that even the youngsters know Rachmaninoff, while only few know Brin. The best cretarea to choose people for images is to choose those whose fame was historicaly proved. You cant enter young celebreties because it would look more like a glamour journal. I caouldn't make a better choice myself, then what the user did, and by learning his detales i have seen that he's kind off a pro in those things at Wikipedia, so i think this is the best image and no changes should be done. 79.180.7.175 (talk) 23:12, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you!!! The image right now is the most representetive that can get. It shows some of the most important people in American history, in it's politics, science and culture. It's perfect!!! Any change will be, sorry, stupid. Dont fix something if it ain't broken. Shpakovich (talk) 20:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The picture in this section DEFINITELY NEEDS AN UPDATE, and the behavior by the user above me ("Shpakovich") who is basically calling the brilliant idea of updating the picture "stupid", is simply UNACCEPTABLE on Wikipedia! The whole essence of Wikipedia is the constant improvement and updating, and you cannot ignore majority of people demanding changes to the section just because you do not feel like it! If you look at all other similar articles on WikiPedia like "Italian Americans", "Mexican American", etc., they all include people who keep contributing to the achievements and the advancement of their ethnic groups IN THIS PRESENT DAY AND AGE, alongside some historic figures as well. Please note: I agree that all of the people currently on the picture DESERVE to be there and should never be removed, but it would also greatly benefit from adding some faces of notable MODERN Russian-speaking Americans. Even without doing any research right now, I can easily name at least six Russian-speaking Americans who are widely loved and recognized in this country and, probably, around the World. Google co-founder SERGEY BRIN, sports champions KARINA SMIRNOFF and NASTIA LIUKIN, actor ANTON YELCHIN, musicians DJ VLAD (Vlad Lyubovny) and REGINA SPEKTOR, they all deserve to be in this section! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.130.136.208 (talk) 14:19, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

The obvious missing person is Nabokov, but it would be nice to add Brin as well ;) --76.193.165.239 (talk) 03:35, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality dispute

I think that Russian Jews should be considered ethnically Russian, because apparently, a lot of ethnic Russians have converted to Judaism. My mother's family is Roman Catholic and came from Italy, but considered themselves Italian-American, not Catholic-American. My father's family is Jewish and came from Russia, but considered themselves Russian-American, not Jewish-American. Therefore, I can't be half-Italian and half-Jewish, or half-Catholic and half-Russian. Having said that, I am half-Italian and half-Russian, or half-Catholic and half-Jewish. If anyone objects to me editing the article to suit this argument, please let me know within a day. Marcus2 (talk) 14:42, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

You got to confused. A Jew cant be of Russian ethnicity. Ethnicity is race, blood. What you talk about is relegion. Relegion is not ethnicity. Give a link to the claim that many ethnic Russians converted to Judaism. Even if some have, that still wont make all people whose relegion is Judaism Russians. This version is the most nutral one and explaines important things. What you did is returning the version that the edit wars started because of in the first place. In Russian, Nationality means ethnicity, and many Russians when have seen on Jews nationality Russian protested, and an explanation is so really needed. You cant escape the topic. This version is the concensus one when both sides are shown. Shpakovich (talk) 16:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

By definition, a Russian American is someone who believes he is a Russian American. Period. Ethicity=identity. Since the U.S. census is based on free responses of the individuals in question, its data are definitive. Causantin (talk) 13:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

But we brpught to censuses. One asking if you are Russian, and one if you are Russian ethnicity. The results were different. And ethnicity is race, origin, blood. What you said means that a German may decide he is Chinese. Ethnicity means racial identity. Origin, blood, history. Shpakovich (talk) 16:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, your first sentence is gibberish. Do you mean there is a second census, other than the U.S. Census Bureau one? Where is it? Secondly, as per the relevant Wikipedia article "an ethnic group (also called a people or an ethnicity) is a group of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry." Your definition is the racist one. "Origin, blood"? " Racial Identity"? You might want to think again before making such points openly, the current political climate is not very favorable to racists... Back to the point, who thinks that a non-Russian would answer "yes" to the question "are you a Russian-American"? Realistically, it's silly to believe a Jewish-American would register as a Russian- or Polish- or German- American. As for the German, the point is not if he says he is Chinese, but if he believes it (which is unlikely)... Causantin (talk) 16:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

You speak demogogic pretty words right now. There is such a word race, it's not a curse. The second census id given in the article to. By a university, Harward, which shows how much ethnic Russians there are. Ethnicity, ethnic groups, is race. racism is saying that one race is worst then another, i havent said that. You want to say that beetwen you, and a black man, theres really no difference? That difference doesnt make one of you better or worst, but your DNA is different. The quote you gave uses geneology as creterea. Russian-Jews and real Russians dont have the same geneology. Brin for example. He's Jewish but he calles himself a Russian-American. Why? Because he was born in Russia, and his what called a Rossiyanin in Russian, which means resident of Russia, or was. Ethnic Russian is Russkiy, which means Russian by ethnicity. Even if he was born in France, which means he's not Rossiyanin, but that wont change the fact he's Russkiy. In America, both can identify themselves as Russian-American, but different types. And we should explaine it here. The dact that in Russian popular culture they laugh about Jews like Brin who call themselves Russian-American, just see the movie Brat 2 (Brother 2) where they show a stereotypical Jew with a Jewish accent saying: "We Russians...", this movie took plaace in America by the way, show that many people dont understand the difference, thats why it should be explained and shown. This disccusion already awoke here so many times. The current version is a concensus one, because it brings both views. Shpakovich (talk) 18:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I am a Russian immigrant and I don't undestand what are you saying. The definition of "ethnic russian" in your Harvard FAS reference is "either born in Russia or have at least one parent or grandparent of ethnic Russian heritage", but the reference does not pass WP:RS in this context because it does not mention any sources for their figures. At most, it can be used to justify a sentence such as "some scholars find the US Census results unrealistic" --Cubbi (talk) 20:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Here's the quote from the Harvard link: "According to the US Census of 1990, the estimated total population from Russia and the Soviet Union living in the United States was 2,880,000 people. But a more realistic figure is 750,000 Americans of ethnic Russian descent". What i say is that it's important to notice most of Russian-Americans are not ethnic Russians. That's important to expaline because i gave an example from popular culture that in Russia for example people laugh about Jews from Russia in America labeling themselves as "Russian-Americans". Shpakovich (talk) 20:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Your right the 750,000 is not an offical census number, but deleting it as an option from the Total Population would hurt the concensus reached long time ago, to include both versions. Thats why in the Total Population i wrote a note stating it's not an offical number but a statement by Harward University researchers. That way we dont hurt the concensus, and yet make a difference beetwen an offical census and a University number. Shpakovich (talk) 21:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Many people have converted to Judaism all over the world, and some of them have names that are native to their home country. And you can't be Russian Orthodox by ethnicity. If you were born and raised in Russia, your ethnicity is Russian. In my opinion, Jewish (like Christian) is a religious reference, not an ethnic reference. In addition, you skimped on my ethnic/religious statements, which I will repeat. I am not half-Italian and half-Jewish at the same time, nor am I half-Catholic and half-Russian at the same time. I am either half-Italian and half-Russian, or half-Catholic and half-Jewish. My father's enthnicity is not Jewish, because my mother's ethnicity is not Roman Catholic. I gave you guys more than one full day to discuss this, but alas, your time ran up! Marcus2 (talk) 15:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Please, be careful when reverting this article, you've deleted a big chunk of work that had nothing to do with your dispute with Shpakovich. --Cubbi (talk) 15:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I took that in mind, and this time, I was more careful. Marcus2 (talk) 15:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The number of Russians who converted to Judaism as small. Much more Jews converted to Christianity but i havent seen you adding Russian Orthodoxy in the relegions at the Jewish Americans article. I keep Judiasm and Islam, but there should be an explanation. Almost all Russians are Orthodox christians. I havent wrote all, i wrote most. Again, we could simply delete Judaism and Islam, like once many have done, and finish the argument. Stop this revert war! I havent deleted anything you added, while you keep an edit war when you were explained you revert an old concensus version. Shpakovich (talk) 16:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The number of ethnic Russians who converted to Judaism was not small at all. And why do you think more Jews converted to Christianity than Russians to Judaism? In fact, there are Russian Jewish cemeteries all across New York and New Jersey with mostly Russian-sounding names. Why? Probably because their Russian ancestors converted to Judaism, probably as a result of rabbis and Jews seeking converts. Russia has had a strong Jewish tradition. Historically, Jews were not a small minority in every single European country. In eastern European countries such as Poland and Romania, the population of Jews was immense. It is also an error to say that almost all Russians are Orthodox Christians. Many Russians are atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Protestants, and Roman Catholics. And there was no consensus. Please, do NOT even think about reverting another Wikipedian's extensive work in improving the article, especially when it involves reversing to an undesired version. When you do, it is very damaging to the article, and it makes you look foolish. Although you seem unwilling to compromise, I am. I will be putting a neutrality dispute tag at the top of the article. Marcus2 (talk) 17:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, i k now many Jews in the US who converted to Orthodoxy. I dont know one Russian who converted to Judaism. Russia doesnt has a "Jewish tradition". Till 1917 Jews werent alowed to live in Russia itself. Ok, lets assume that not the majority of ethnic Russians are Orthodox. You still agree that it's the biggest faith among them? So i changed the formulation. Could you expaline me why the NPOV tag is here? I said that this is a Harward statistics. I reverse to the undesired version? The version i revert to is for a long time here. Your version was cancled. Why? Because it speaks nothing about how much are ethnic Russians. There were radicals like you from the other side. In relegion they left only Orthodoxy. The number was only 750000. All words about Jews were deleted. Saying that i'm unwilling to compromise is a cheap propoganda. If i would be unwiiling, i would delete every word about Jews. But since i'm for compromise, i dont. Please notice i havent deleted one word of what you said! All i did was including the other view. Shpakovich (talk) 18:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Now you're just being silly. Of course there were Jews in Russia before 1917. Half of my ancestors were from Russia, and they were Jewish. Persecutions against Russia's Jews did not begin until the late 19th century. Judaism was in Russia since early medieval times. Marcus2 (talk) 18:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Wait! Do you mean the holly Russia or Russian Empire? In Israel, where i live, for example, they say: "Golda Meir was born in the Russian city Kiev". Thats Russian Empire but not inner Russia. Pale of settelment. And in Israel, like in the rest of the world, they call "Russian" anyone who speaks Russian, even if he's from Ukraine or Belarus. Shpakovich (talk) 18:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed that there is an IP number editing from Israel. You say you live in Israel, so I strongly assume it's you. As far as I know, half of my ancestors came from mainland Russia. And Boris Pasternak was born in Moscow in 1890 into a Jewish family. By the way, are you Jewish by faith? Marcus2 (talk) 19:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah it was me, forgot to sign in. But the edit i did was what i wrote about. Instaed of writing that most Russians are Orthodox, i simply write it's the biggest faith among them. By faith i'm Atheist, or Deist more precicely. By ethnicity i'm half Jewish, by mother, and half Russian, by father. I support Zionism. Yes Boris Pasternak was born in inner Russia but his anccesors converted to Orthodoxy. Those who converted could live in Russia. The composer Rubinstein is the same story. Were your anccesors from inner Russia converts? Because then that explaines it. If not you should ask questions about it. It might be Crimea which till Chrushev was Russia, but Jews were allowed their. Or it could be New Russia, which was Russia but Jews were allowed there. Till 1917 anyway it had no connection to Ukraine. Shpakovich (talk) 19:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

My Russian ancestors remained Jewish, never converted to Christianity. And I agree with Causantin's first argument. My father is Jewish and had a bar mitzvah, but no longer practices Judaism. And although he never converted to Christianity, he considers himself Russian-American. There is at least one site that says that Boris Pasternak's religion was Jewish, though he is categorized on Wikipedia as a Russian Orthodox Christian. Perhaps he converted to Christianity from Judaism at some point in his life. Marcus2 (talk) 19:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Pasternak? He never converted. His father have. Your father is Russian-American. Why? Because his nationality is Russian. But is his ethnicity Russian? Is he of the Slavic ethnic group called Russians? DNA. And thats why the whole argument started. Since there is such a group Jewish-Americans, many people started a few month ago deleting Judaism as relegion, and writing 300000 as the number of Russians in America. They said: "Jews from Russia are not Russian-Americans but Jewish-Americans". Another point which made the discussion harder is that in Russian, nationality means ethnicity. Just ask your father for his birth ID. In the Soviet Union it was written nationality:Jewish. Thats why when they were told that the Jews from Russia are Russians by nationality they answered: "No there not! There jews by nationality". Then it was understood that in the article it all should be explained. Thats why it's a concensus version. Jews from Russia were remained Russian Americans, and Judaism remaןned as one of the relegions here. But the whole thing was explained and alternative statistic were entered. That was the compromise back then. Shpakovich (talk) 19:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Allright. If Pasternak never converted, he stayed Jewish (by faith). This last sentence was light sarcasm. Pasternak was born into the Jewish religion and was circumcised. So apparently, there were people practicing Judaism in inner Russia before 1917. Smolensk and Moscow are cities in inner Russia, and apparently, there have been Judaists with names such as Smolensky, Moskovsky, and Moskowitz. Smolensky means someone who came from Smolensk, and Moskovsky and Moskowitz (or Moskovitz) mean someone who came from Moscow. Therefore, my conclusion is that you are wrong. Judaism existed since the early Middle Ages throughout Russia, from as far west as Russian Poland to as far east as Siberia. And as far as I know, at least two of my father's grandparents were born into the Jewish faith in inner Russia. Marcus2 (talk) 16:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Represent this in the article?

Guys, since there is a dispute, how about creating a subsection, such as "Ethnicity and Nationality", where all this argument could be contained? We could explain that in the USSR, ethnicity was written in the documents issued to every citizen, which often contradicted with "ethnicity" in its common English language definition. The situation was even more complicated for Russian Jews, who had three independent definitions of ethnicity: matrilinear, documented, and cultural. You could have a jewish grandmother on your mother's side (and thus be recognized as "jewish" by Israel, regardless of faith), live in Georgian SSR with your father (and look georgian and speak georgian), and have "Russian" written in your soviet passport. I've never really looked into this, so I don't know what WP:RS exist on this subject. --Cubbi (talk) 15:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Exellent idea!!! But for now, this version stays, because it's a concensus one. I havent execluded Jews from Russian Americans, even thought once many wanted to, but i belive an explanation should be made. And the version with the explanation is the concensus version. Shpakovich (talk) 16:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, I am going to move the content related to the ethnic/racial makeup of Russian Americans to a new subsection. It has no place in the infobox, which is there to describe the subject of the article, not a subset of it. --Cubbi (talk) 02:16, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

>>>There is no such nationality "Russian-Jew". In Russia's low you have to choose; you are a Russian or you are a Jew, if you are a child of mixed russian-jewish couple. Same-same in America. There are no mixed nationalities here except "African-American". Officially. Non-Officially you can call you self however you want. But, Wikipedia must to use official terms.--Russkii (talk) 01:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You seem to deny the existance of all Hyphenated Americans except African Americans. Interesting case of preferential treatment. --Cubbi (talk) 13:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't. I do not deny existence of so-called "hyphenated" nationalities. They exist, but non-officially, in folklore and anecdotes. You can use one, three or more hyphens, when you speak about your own genealogical tree. And Americans also like to do so when they talk about their ancestors. But when you ask them seriously, what is their nationality now, they do answer firmly: "American". Without any "hyphens". I repeat, that there are no hyphenated nationalities in official language of America. If you, user Cubbi, now an american naturalized citizen, you are not a Russian any more. You are a Naturalized American with Russian origin. Period.--Russkii (talk) 21:05, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

actual numbers

Here's some qualifications to your numerical arguments, guys:

• 3,009,876 (ref is in the article) is from the year 2005 U.S. Census American Community Survey (not the same as U.S. Census). It lists the people who wrote "Russian" in Question 10, which asked people to write in their "ancestry or ethnic origin." The question was based on self-identification; results represent self-classification by people according to the ancestry group or groups with which they most closely identify. It also lists 963,263 americans as Americans with Ukrainian ancestry and 125,992 as Americans with Israeli ancestry. A more up to date number would be 3,105,965 for year 2006 [5] (also lists 961,113 Ukrainians)
• 2,652,214 Americans wrote "Russian" in the same question of the actual U.S. Census in the year 2000 (the next full census will happen in 2010)
• 706,000 Americans speak Russian language most frequently at home according to the actual year 2000 U.S. Census [6]. This is a very strict defition - I am a Russian American, and I speak Russian freely, but I don't speak Russian at home (my wife is an Irish American), so I would not be counted as one of this 0.7 mil.
• 758,600 foreign-born Americans list Russia as their birthplace in IPUMS year 2000 dataset. This appears to be the source of the Harvard FAS reference.

I don't know of any other nation-wide statistics gathered in the USA. --Cubbi (talk) 21:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Sergey Brin is the example. He labels himself Russian American. But his not Russian Ethnicity. About the question who do you identidy with. It's a tricky one and we should avoid it. Jews in America who dont know English, but know Russian, feel that the American Jews who are already simply American are foreigners while ethnic Russians they identify with. It's the same think with Russophone Ukrainians in Ukraine. Ukrainians in east Ukraine in a survey stated that they will have a Russian in their home, but wont have someone from west Ukraine their. Does that make them of Russian ethnicity? Again, no. Shpakovich (talk) 22:10, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Why do you insist on strict segregation? Sergey Brin is a Russian American *and* a Jewish American. The problem between you and Marcus, as I see it, is how to define "Russian American": Marcus believes the English language definition (by self-identification) should be used. You believe that the Soviet passport definition (by genealogy) should be used. We know the exact numbers for the three definitions I listed above, and we don't know the numbers for the definition "ethnic Russians living in the USA" where "ethnic" is defined as in the soviet passport. (remember, your Harvard FAS curriculum defines "ethnic russian" as born in Russia or child/grandchild of someone born in Russia - it counts Sergey Brin as "ethnic Russian"). --Cubbi (talk) 22:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

You didnt understand me. Brin is a Russian American, but his not an ethnic Russian. Thats what i say. I say that we need to have both numbers. Both Russian Americans, and both ethnic Russian Americans. Shpakovich (talk) 23:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Read that. Its the part in the discussion beetwen Marcus an me when i explained him how it all started and why i insist on that version: "Your father is Russian-American. Why? Because his nationality is Russian. But is his ethnicity Russian? Is he of the Slavic ethnic group called Russians? DNA. And thats why the whole argument started. Since there is such a group Jewish-Americans, many people started a few month ago deleting Judaism as relegion, and writing 300000 as the number of Russians in America. They said: "Jews from Russia are not Russian-Americans but Jewish-Americans". Another point which made the discussion harder is that in Russian, nationality means ethnicity. Just ask your father for his birth ID. In the Soviet Union it was written nationality:Jewish. Thats why when they were told that the Jews from Russia are Russians by nationality they answered: "No there not! There jews by nationality". Then it was understood that in the article it all should be explained. Thats why it's a concensus version. Jews from Russia were remained Russian Americans, and Judaism remaןned as one of the relegions here. But the whole thing was explained and alternative statistic were entered. That was the compromise back then".Shpakovich (talk) 23:03, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah but in the research i gave ethnicity actually means DNA, the biological creterea. And thats what i mean. But now you see that i dont support here segarigation but simply explaining and giving both of the number? If i would support segarigation i would delete everything that menations Jews, but that's not what i'm doing. Shpakovich (talk) 23:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you trying to say that Sergey Brin has no Russian DNA? His face certainly looks slavic, rather than middle-eastern. --Cubbi (talk) 23:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Haven't you known? Brin is in ethnic Jew. Your surfing into a different discussion. While living in Europe Jews mixed with others, Khmilnitsky's Cossacks worked hard on that. But they, ethnicaly at least? Identify themselves as Jewish. Shpakovich (talk) 23:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Brin may be ethnically Jewish, in the sense that his distant ancestors were from Ancient Judea rather than Kievan Rus, but he still probably has more in common CULTURALLY with recent ethnic Russian migrants than he would with 4th generation American Jews. And if he identifies as a Russian-American, that's all that matters. I identify as a Russian-Australian even though only my maternal grandmother is ethnically Russian while my other three grandparents are Jews from Russia/Ukraine. That's because all my relatives, whether secular Jews or baptised Russian Orthodox Christians, are CULTURALLY Russian. This may make nationalists angry, but I believe Russian culture is stronger than Russian "blood". CommanderJamesBond (talk) 08:46, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

You can identify yoursalf as a Chinese, would that make you one? That's mt point. DNA. Log in, log out (talk) 10:44, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The Mafia, guys, since we have to talk about a mafia, lets agree on something. Ethnic Russians dont like it when Chechenians or Jews are called the Russian Mafia, because they say that other ethnicities bring them a bad name. So if you'll tak about the mafia, you have to mention how ethnicaly diverse it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.66.230.108 (talk) 10:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, I removed the whole paragraph about how Russian Jews aren't really Russian. It stank of ultra-nationalism and the word 'Jewish' wasn't even capitalised. I especially found the part about ethnic Russians in the diaspora not viewing Russian Jews as Russians untrue. From personal experience, it's BS. The Russian-speaking diaspora is the one place on Earth where ethnic Russians, Jews, Ukrainians, Kazakhs, Tatars who are culturally Russian can get along and embrace each other as cultural brothers. I've seen it with my own eyes. Just go to a Russian restaurant or club.

I think we shouldn't let petty "racial" differences that are unfortunately prominent in the Motherland affect an article about Americans. CommanderJamesBond (talk) 10:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. A Wikipedia article should be polite, should encourage cosmopolitanism, and should actively seek to impose such positions on its readers. It should be more of a tool of sending a positive message to improve the world and fight against those with improper, racially and ethnically motivated points of view, even if there is a grain of truth in them. Truth, after all, is subjective and alterable. Besides, Russian-Americans are no longer within the jurisdiction of the Russians, and Americans may assign whatever culture they want to whatever group they want. If an American with a proper worldview says that wearing a fur hat would make one Russian, then Russian would one be. The Russians have their own Wikipedia for that. --Humanophage (talk) 12:13, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

No it's not. Wikipedia is not a political project nor it's some druged meditators hiding place. Wikipedia should tell the truth, facts. Thats where it starts and thats where it ends. Truth is not subjective. Just like 2+2 cant be anything but 4. It's a fact. If a Jew from Russia for example is a criminal, i want him to be called a Jewish criminal, and not "Russian", because he is not Russian and i dont wont him to do damage to my name. Racial differences, DNA, it exists. You cant denie it. People have different color, different face lines, different DNA, that's a fact, and thats not racism. Log in, log out (talk) 17:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

"i want him to be called a Jewish criminal" Then I suppose a Christian from Russia who is a criminal should be called a Christian criminal and not a Russian criminal. Marcus2 (talk) 21:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

A? If you dont know what the argument is about, ask. Were talking about ethnicity, Christianity is a relegion. Understood? For example, even if an ethnic Jew will convert, would that change his DNA? When a criminal is an ethnic Russian - i dont mind him being called Russian criminal. But Jews, Chehenians, Azerbajanis, and more ex-USSR ethnic groups are being labeled as the "Russian" mafia, thats all ready to much. In Russia they joke about it when Jews are called Russians. Log in, log out (talk) 10:35, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I guess it's because of the fact that English speaking person cannot define a person of a Russian ethnicity and a person with the Russian citizenship. It's like with French people. They can be Arabs, Turks, Poles or ethnic French, but they all are citizens of France. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.247.129.114 (talk) 09:39, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Intro change

I have fixed up the intro a bit. Let's not beat a dead horse as to who specifically is a Russian American in the intro. Also, I would like to point out that I don't consider Jews to be an ethnicity, contrary to popular belief. Non-Jews can become Jews, though white people can't become black people. And there's no such thing as a non-exclusive ethnic group: it is illogical for one to change his or her race by converting to another religion, for instance. I hope this helps. Marcus2 (talk) 21:41, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

You're confusing Ashkenazi Jews, an ethnic group, with general Judaists - i.e. practioners of Judaism. In Russia, Jews are considered an ethnic group and were designated as such in their Soviet passports. Most Russian Jews don't even practice Judaism - does that make them Slavs? Most Russian-speakers in America are Jewish by bloodline (not by religon) and thus it's appropriate to mention them (in fact, it would be highly inapporpriate not to mention them, considering they're the biggest practioners of Russian culture in the US due to their numbers).

The view that Jews are just a religion came from the German Reformist Jews who thought Jews needed to assimilate and mimic German Christians. Nobody in Russia considers Jews to be just a religion, thus it has no place in article relating to Russians. CommanderJamesBond (talk) 06:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Use of Category:Russian-Americans

In editing articles to do with Russian America in the last few days, I have removed the Russian-Americans category from the articles on the governors and other officials and personnel of the Russian American Company. The Russian-Americans category is for Americans of Russian descent/origin, it does not refer to Russians resident in what is now the United States. Prince Matsukov stayed on after the purchase as Russian consul, but he did not naturalize as an American citizen and remained, no less, a Russian prince; there may be some eventual cases where articles are written on those involved in Russian America who stayed on, either in Alaska or California or who moved to other parts of the US from what had become Alaska, who the category will apply to, but at the moment there are none. There's also the issue of Category:Americans of Russian descent, which is slightly different in nature; some related categories use "ancestry" rather than "descent" but the purpose is the same; and Category:Native Alaskans of Russian descent is worth noting as a subcategory of the same, since many Aleuts and Eyak and Tlingits and others have notable Russian ancestry, but may not identity as "Russian American". Myself, I'm a Category:Canadian of Norwegian descent but I'm not a Category:Norwegian Canadian, and there's an important difference and perhaps the issue should be debated here; simply having Russian blood does not make one a Russian-American, that's a question of self-identification, no? Anyway the main presmise of my post/notice here is to ask people not to re-place the Russian-Americans category an articles such as that of Baron Wrangel and Count Furuhjelm, and also to be wary of using the term "Russian American" to refer to Russians resident/working in Russian America; in history they're referred to as Russians only, not as Russian Americans, despite the fact they're associated with Russian America and the Russian American Company. And I hope my suggestion about a descent/ancestry distinction vs self-identifying Russian Americans is taken into consideration, s there aer many Alaskans, nearly all of Native Alaskan/status blood as well, who are of Russian descent, but who are not "Russian-Americans" in the way that term is normally meant Thanks.Skookum1 (talk) 13:56, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for cleaning up russian america section. I had originally made it as a summary of other wikipages on the subject, and didn't know if anything pulled in from there was unsubstantiated. I agree that the the citizens of Russia who are not citizens of the USA are not Russian Americans by any sensible definition, and that includes the officials of the Russian American Company. As for the distinction between self-identification and ancestry, all we have for Russian Americans from reliable sources are the numbers from the census, of which there are three: "Ancestry: Russian", "Place of birth: USSR/Russia", "Language spoken at home: Russian". All three numbers are in the page. I doubt the people who have only a little "russian blood" and who do not purposefully self-identify as russian americans, would list their ancestry as Russian, since there must be another ancestry that's more prevalent. --Cubbi (talk) 18:13, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Glad someone agrees :-) In the Canadian ethnicity articles and categories there's quite a bit of kerfuffle over whether or not to use hyphens, and also whether there's a difference between, say, "Norwegian Canadians" (like my grandfather) or "Canadians of Norwegian descent" (like myself). At least one ethnic article I know of is Canadians of German ethnicity rather than German Canadian or German-Canadian, the latter two AFAIK redirect to the first. The reason for that is that German ethnicity may, of course, come from the Volga, Bohemia, Transylvania, Switzerland, or even Italy or Yugoslavia or France. We also have Canadians of French ethnicity I think - nope must be Canadians of French ancestry which doesn't seem quite right as it implies France rather than including Belgians, Swiss etc...- to distinguish non-Quebecois from others; but even so it includes Belgians, Swiss, and even English (technically it would include any English person of Norman ancestry....). BTW I spent part of the morning removing national flags from some of the ethnicity pages, which an IP user had placed and keeps on doing so; needless ot say some people of Russian ancestry are not from the Russian Federation, so the Russian Federation flag is no more appropriate than the Soviet one would be; I haven't looked to see if it's on this page but given Russians from what is now Moldova, Ukraine, Estonia, etc it doesn't seem appropriate if it (still) is....Skookum1 (talk) 18:35, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Re your comment about census categories, it happens that in Canada one of hte largest self-identifying ethnicities is "Canadian" with no other ethnicity given; and there's no way to know what ethnicity they are beyodn that; so in some cases where people have been classified by their surname, the issue is whether or not they themselves filled out their census form with that identification; many probably didn't...I'd imagine the same is the case in the US where "American" is also listsed as an ethnic-origin option. But on the flip side, I listed all four of my lineages, though if I wanted to dig around on my English side there's "Shonfeld-Hodgkins" and who knows where that Shonfeld came from, or when it crossed the Channel. Ethnicity is about self-identification, not how someone else classifies you; it's why there are German and Italian last names among the French, Spanish surnames among hte Irish (Eamonn de Valera) and so on. In the case of Russian Canadians I'm pretty sure Michael Ignatieff identifies himself that way, though he doesn't speak Russian SFAIK although his boyar (or princely?) blueblood is part of the resume....Skookum1 (talk) 18:42, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Confusion?

The problem is we have two words, two notions in Russian: Rossiyanin and Russki. Rossiyanin means a person who was born and grew up in Russia or in Soviet Union. He can be Finno-Ugric, Turkic, even Black, but he's still Rossiyanin. The word 'Russki' means a person of russian ethnicity: mother tongue is Russian, russian traditions, Russian blood etc. Both two words are translated 'Russian' into English. I think Russian-speaking people censed by the Bureau confuse this two translations (not speaking of the American government). I think it should be some how clarified? 195.113.149.177 (talk) 21:32, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

That distinction exists in English as well: your "Rossiyanin" is nationality, your "Russki" is ethnicity. That is why we've quoted two different census numbers in the infobox: american citizens of Russian ethnic background and american citizens born in Russia and/or Soviet Union. And if you want to limit ethnicity to the russophones, we have that number in the text of the article as well (also from the census). What exactly do you think should be clarified? --Cubbi (talk) 22:02, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Sexism in pictures

Could we include Ayn Rand, perhaps? Jacob Richardson (talk) 19:27, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

new infobox

Expanded infobox. Added Emma Goldman, Mikhail Baryshnikov, Sergey Brin, Yul Brynner Rudolf Nureyev, Ayn Rand, David Sarnoff, George Balanchine, Isaac Asimov, Irving Berlin. Goldman is arguably Lithuanian, not Russian. Baryshnikov was born in Latvia but to Russian parents. Could arguably add Natalie Wood and Bella Abzug for greater gender diversity--Work permit (talk) 04:40, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, a vast improvement. Sir Richardson (talk) 03:49, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. An anon questioned why I removed Alexander P. de Seversky from the infobox. Its because I could find no free-use image of him. In any event, I feel the additions were more notable.--Work permit (talk) 05:19, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

arbitrary removal of Russian-Jews

I have reverted a change by User:Andrew Shane that appears to arbitrarily delete Russian-Jews from the info box. Perhaps its not because they are Jewish? Is there some other reason? I think we should discuss

Why would we delete Sergey Brin? He emigrated from Russia at the age of six. Both his parents were graduates of Moscow State University. He is a co-founder of google, the worlds largest Internet company. He is the worlds 26th richest person. Besides being Jewish, is there some other reason I have missed?--Work permit (talk) 05:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Religion

People have enough to write a religion column in the Russian Jewish, Russian adherents of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, they are not Jews With regard to the Jews then move them to the Count Jewish American or American Jews —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew Shane (talk • contribs) 20:43, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Differences among the Russians --83.52.58.225 (talk) 14:11, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

It would be interesting to distinguish the number of Americans who are descended from European Russia who are descended from Asiatic Russia, as there are important cultural differences between the two groups(mostly Russian Asians are Muslims and are of Arab descent and Yellow, basically), shown by the book "The human race"(ed. Instituto Gallach). Futhermore, this article would be more complete.

ethnic confusion

I don't mean to rehash old conversations, but this article needs some serious work and there seems to be a lot of confusion. I'll try to clear some of it up.

Part of the confusion is there because the word Russian has two meanings, first, and by far the most common, is a person of Russian ethnicity (or Russkii) (see Russians). Second, Russian is sometimes used to refer to any person who is a citizen of the country of Russia (or Rossiyanin). There are about 160 different ethnic groups that live in Russia with ethnic Russians making up about 80% of the population. This is the same as Germany, for example, where ethnic Germans are the majority of the population and are refereed to just as Germans, however an ethnic Turkish citizen of Germany, would also be called German or perhaps a German national, irrespective of the fact that they are not an ethnic German. I hope the distinction is obvious. If its not I suggest you read the ethnicity article and then perhaps the ethnic minorities article.

Now, hopefully with that out of the way, it should be clear that the term Russian-American refers only to ethnic Russians who hold American citizenship. People of other ethnicity who hail from Russia and hold American citizenship are not Russian-Americans, because they are neither Russian nationals nor ethnic Russians i.e. not Russian in either sense of the word. For example, an ethnic Armenian who was born in Russia and moved to the US is an Armenian-American not a Russian-American. Now, I understand that there may be people who have mixed heritage, and various other exceptions, but generally that's the case. I would also add, even more importantly, this is the way the Russian-American community self identifies 1. I think the best way to deal with this is to have something at the top of the article or the intro explaining the issue. I will write that up.

Finally, there seem to be a lot of recurring questions as to why Jewish people who hail from Russian Empire/Russia/Soviet Union are removed and/or not included (Irving Berlin, Sergey Brin , etc). The answer is that Jewish people from Russia are not ethnic Russians who happen to practice Judaism, they are a different ethnic group, Ashkenazi Jews who also practice a different religion. For details, please read through the Ashkenazi Jews article. Its likely also true, that there are more Jewish people in the US who came from the Russian Empire or the Soviet Union then ethnic Russians, however that's a completely separate community with a different culture and religion. Keeping this in mind, if anyone wants to start an article or a list of Russian/Soviet Jews, I would not be opposed.

I'm planning on rewriting the article, with all of this explained in the introduction (hopefully in a concise way) and I'm going to remove all the non-Russians from the infobox image. Does anyone have any objections? Sotnik (talk) 04:08, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I disagree completely. The words you're talking about are Russian words as used in Russian language, while this article is a part of the English wikipedia and deals with English concepts. Specifically, American concepts, since the subject of this page is a subdivision of the US demographic. Russian Americans are the americans born in Russia or their descendants, as long as they self-identify as such, regardless of race, that's all there is to it.

As for the people with mixed background, such as the russian americans with jewish ancestors, or your armenian-born russian american, the practical distinction comes from the cultural background they adhere to (you've mentioned communities and culture). Does that person speak to his children in Russian or in Armenian? Does he take days off on jewish holidays or does he try to explain what March 8th or May 9th mean to his co-workers? That's why we have the "primary language spoken at home" US Census numbers in addition to the much larger "russian ancestry first choice" category -- quite a few people here like to bring up russian or polish or some other eastern european grandparent in a conversation, but are themselves american in every sense of the word. As for that so-called "Congress of Russian Americans" whose website you reference, I don't see how they can represent the demographic any more than the AIDA represented Italian Americans when they sued Sopranos. It's just another minority interest group, of which we have thousands. --Cubbi (talk) 04:44, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

As with all other 'foo American' articles and lists, this article is about Americans and their descendants who came from Russia, regardless of ethnicity, religion, culture, etc etc. This is not changing universally in WP and thus not in any one article. Hmains (talk) 15:18, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Hmains, is that an official policy, where did you even get that from? That's just silly and in fact that is NOT currently the case. Off the top of my head, there are articles for Rusyn_American and Basque-Americans, the first group comes primary from Ukraine and the second from Spain, yet there are article about those ethnic groups in America. If I want to write an article about my community, (ethnic) Russians in America, why shouldn't I be able to? In addition, Russia was a part of the Soviet Union before 1991 and the Russian Empire before 1917, so according to what you say people born between 1922 and 1991 should be listed as Soviet-Americans? If not, why then is someone like David Sarnoff (born in present day Belarus) listed on this page? Or should everyone in Latvian_American for example be listed only as a Russian American? That simply does not make any sense at all. Sotnik (talk) 02:49, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Cubbi, religion and ethnicity are not only a Russian concepts, they are surely valid anywhere in the world. Here is my problem with what you are saying, Russia is a very large country, lots of ethnic groups live there, many with their own identity and culture. On top of that there have been a lot territorial changes in the last few hundred years. For a whole myriad of reasons (partly outlined above) it does not make sense to list non-Russians who were born somewhere in the Russian Empire or the Soviet Union as Russian. On top of that, you mention self-identification, I don't know that some of the people that are mentioned in this articled ever identified as Russian and that's not something that can be easily looked up. Even more so, there is no Russian American community, apart from the (ethnic) Russian American community. That was the point of the link I provided. My goal at the moment is to write a more comprehensive article about my own community, its notable enough and I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to do so. I'm certainly open to constructive ideas, if you'd like to start an article on Americans from the former Russian Empire, the former Soviet Union, Russian-Speaking/Russophone-Americans, Russian-American Jews, etc I would be supportive of that and I could possible even contribute. Cheers. Sotnik (talk) 02:49, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect, you're the one bringing up a new potential article subject. This is not an article about any kind of community, it is an article about a large and diverse group of americans who, for various historic or current reasons, are called 'Russian Americans'. In fact, it does not (yet?) discuss the issues of segregation, assimilation, formation of communities and differences between those communities (cf. Chinese American and its subpages). If you feel that your "ethnic Russian American community" is notable (are there actually WP:RS?), do write about it, whether as a new article or, perhaps indeed better, as a section of this article. I have heard of tightly-knit religion-based Russian American communities, much smaller but similar in some ways to the Amish, but this is honestly the first time I hear of one based on ethnic purity. --Cubbi (talk) 03:20, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

No, I don't believe I am. This has nothing to do with with religion-based communities (there are Russians in America of various religions) or "ethnic purity", whatever that means to you. What I am bringing up is the fact that this article currently does not make any sense, people like David Sarnoff or Emma Goldman are neither Russian nor Russian-American by any rational definition. Also, obviously this article is about a community, at least in the most general sense of a group of people who share some common culture and/or traits. My intent is to make this article actually make sense and actually be about Russian Americans, as apposed to some semi-random and unrelated collection of people. If you feel there is some value in creating another article to group people based on whatever set of criteria, I wouldn't necessarily be apposed. Otherwise, I'm don't see any arguments or reasons as why you seem to disagree with what I'm saying. Sotnik (talk) 05:38, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

"obviously this article is about a community," I'm sorry, but what?? People who share common culture are called ethnic group, not community, and this article is *not* about either. It is about the people who share Russian ancestry and are citizens of the USA. --Cubbi (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

I was just doing some more browsing and found that this article is already a part of Russian diaspora series and in that article it says,The term Russian diaspora refers to the global community of ethnic Russians, usually more specifically those who maintain some kind of connection, even if ephemeral, to the land of their ancestors and maintain their feeling of Russian national identity within a local community. The term "Russian speaking (Russophone) diaspora" (русскоговорящая диаспора) is used to describe people for whom Russian language is the native language regardless whether they are ethnic Russians or Ukrainians, Tatars, Jews, Chechens etc. That is exactly the distinction I am making. In addition it seems all hyphenated-Americans articles are part of the Category:Ethnic groups in the United_States. That makes it very clear this article is about ethnic Russians in America, although I still think there should be some mention in the intro of other ethnic groups that may have some historical ties to Russia/Russian Empire/Soviet Union. I'm thinking something like, Russian Americans are citizens of the United States of Russian ancestry. Sometimes American citizens of other ethnicities with historical ties to Russia may also be called Russian Americans, see Jewish-Americans, Ukrainian-Americans, Armenian-Americans. For ethnic minorities in Russia see Demographics of Russia, for non-ethnic Russians who speak Russian as their first language see Russophone. Sotnik (talk) 15:29, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Are you seriously suggesting that *all* Hyphenated Americans are members of respective ethnic diasporas or maintain their culturally-distinct ethnic identities? Members of the Russian diaspora in the US and the members of Russian ethnic communities in the US are (if they are citizens) Russian Americans, hence the Wikipedia categories, but the opposite is not true. I am willing to bet that the majority of the 3.1 million Russian Americans are assimilated, especially since they don't even speak Russian! Your proposed disambig is a non-sequitur: "Russian ancestry" is not an ethnicity, so there can be no "other ethnicities" in the following sentence. Those "with historical ties" are either Americans with Russian Ancestry (or past Russian citizenship) or not. Did they or their ancestors arrive from Russian Empire/Republic/Federation? If they didn't, then them putting "Russian Ancestry" in the Census was a lie. I would give you that Americans with Russian ancestry overlap Americans with Ukrainian/Jewish/Armenian/etc ancestry and it could be explained in more detail. As for David Sarnoff or Emma Goldman, I don't have an opinion, since I'm not familiar with their self-identification or their perception by mass media. I didn't add them and I wouldn't care for their removal. Sergey Brin, on the other hand, is commonly described as a Russian American (just google it) despite his jewish ancestry. --Cubbi (talk) 20:40, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm not suggesting that, I said, that the distinction in the Russian Diaspora article is exactly the distinction that needs to be made on this page for this article to actually make any sense. What is wrong with saying Russian ancestry when its points to the article on ethnic Russians? How is that not specifying ethnicity and how is that in ANY way unclear? This is exactly the language already used in multiple hyphenated-Americans articles for example Serbian Americans. I suppose you can argue that the word ancestry can either mean an ethnic link or just a geographic link, but that's a moot point since there is a link to the page on ethnic Russians. If you'd like to instead write, Russian Americans are citizens of the United States of Russian descent/Russian ethnicity. That's fine by me. I don't understand what criteria you are using, but the only overlap that actually exists between the categories of Russian and Ukrainian or Jewish or Armenian etc Americans are people of mixed descent (for example Milla Jovovich). There all kinds of things that are descried incorrectly or partly incorrectly, that's not a reason to add them to an encyclopedia. My understanding is that Sergei Bryn is of Ashkenazi Jewish descent, therefore is not of Russian descent and therefore does not belong in this article. That is not any different from Boris Karloff who was identified as being of Russian descent for ever but isn't (you can also google that). As I've said a couple times already, I understand that this may be confusing to some, therefore having a good intro explaining things like Russophones and the fact that very many different ethnic groups lived in the Russian Empire/Soviet Union/Russia is a must. That should make things clear enough. This should be obvious, this is an article that is part of the Category:Ethnic groups in the United_States. Russians are an ethnic group, Ukrainians are another ethnic group, Armenians are another ethnic group, Ashkenazi Jewish are another ethnic group. There is nothing else to it. So far what we have is Russian Americans are citizens of the United States of Russian descent/Russian ethnicity. Sometimes American citizens of other ethnicities with historical ties to Russia may also be called Russian Americans, see Jewish-Americans, Ukrainian-Americans, Armenian-Americans. For ethnic minorities in Russia see Demographics of Russia, for non-ethnic Russians who speak Russian as their first language see Russophone. Other suggestions or issues? Sotnik (talk) 02:21, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

First of all, Russians is NOT (just) an ethnic group. Read the page you're linking! Its lede says The English term Russians is used to refer to the citizens of Russia, regardless of their ethnicity. Second, Bryn is a Russian American but is not truly Russian American? That's No true Scotsman fallacy if I've seen one. He was a Russian citizen and so were his parents, they were all naturalized, ergo he is a Russian American (and so are his parents). At the same time, they are persons of jewish descent who are US citizens, and thus they are Jewish Americans, although I don't know which, if any, cultural identity do they share. Karloff is unusual in that he assumed a Russian-sounding name and claimed Russian ethnicity without actually having a russian national among his known ancestors. Since ethnic groups rely on the concept of shared cultural heritage which he didn't actually have, it would indeed be silly to call him a Russian American on the basis of ethnicity. Anyway, as I said before, if you have the desire and the sources that describe russian communities in the US, ethnic or otherwise (didn't you start with referencing some ethnic russian american community website?), please add to the article, it certainly lacks a referenced description of the current state of affairs. All it is now is a confusing intro, reasonable if brief immigration history, and a useless list of communities with no descriptions. I agree that the current two-sentence lede is bad as well. But I am not happy with replacing bad with worse. Descent/Ethnicity... what's that slash supposed to mean? Make it "descent or ethnicity" and it will be meaningful. I would even say US citizens who were or whose ancestors were born in Russia including US citizens of Russian ethnicity, since I like being specific in definitions, but I don't want to do it without WP:RS (although I suppose it can still be done under WP:CON if we get more than two people discussing this). That could be followed by Russian Americans of other ethnic background include Russian Jews, etc... and may identify as Jewish American, etc. -- something like that. There are reliable numbers for those born in Russia and for those who indicated that their ancestors were born in Russia, and those numbers are already in the article. "Ethnicities with historical ties" make no sense. Historical ties are not place of birth. Ethnic minorities of Russia are irrelevant (this is not an article about Russia!) unless their descendants formed notable ethnic minorities in the USA as well. Russophones are not "non-ethnic Russians", they are people who speak the language, most of which are Russians (ethnic or national) --Cubbi (talk) 04:37, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Please look at the article Russians again, its an article about ethnic Russians, that is why the first line says, The Russian people (русские, russkiye) are an ethnic group of the East Slavic peoples, primarily living in Russia and neighboring countries. The line you quoted is an explanation of secondary definition of the word (citizenship) placed there to avoid confusion, it is not the subject of the article. I have never said Sergey Brin is a Russian American, he is not, he is a Russian-Jewish American. He was also born in 1973 and left the Soviet Union in 1979, therefore he was never a Russian citizen, he was a Soviet citizen, and likely the same goes for his parents. Although that's completely irrelevant, because people of non-Russian ethnicity who do not hold Russian citizenship are not Russian, and therefore not Russian-American, by the definition of the word. Moreover, even if he did hold Russian citizenship at one point, it wouldn't matter because this article is about ethnic groups in America and Ashkenazi Jews (or Ukrainians or Armenians or every other ethnic group) are not the same as ethnic Russians. The article isn't about all former Russian nationals or their descendants. I really don't understand why you seem to be refusing to acknowledge this concept. My point about Karloff is that people are often misidentified and that is not a valid reason to include them in this article, although I would not mind if some mention of that was made in their respective articles, that goes for both Karloff and Brin. The slash in Descent/Ethnicity was supposed to mean that you can pick one, because those two words mean the same thing to me, especially if they point towards the Russians article. If you don't want to pick one I'll insist on Russian Americans are citizens of the United States of Russian ethnicity. Why doesn't the phrase "Ethnicities with historical ties" not make sense to you? This article is NOT about where people are born, its about ethnic groups in America. However to alleviate the same kind of confusion that you seem to have, its a good way to describe the situation. Saying what you suggest instead, Russian Americans of other ethnic background include Russian Jews, etc... and may identify as Jewish American, etc is simply incorrect, because (once again) Russians are not the same ethnic group as the other people mentioned and this article is ultimately about ethnic groups. Maybe then, something like Russian Americans are citizens of the United States of Russian ethnicity. Sometimes Americans of other ethnic backgrounds are also [incorrectly] identified as Russian Americans based on past Russian citizenship. Obviously, the rest of the article needs to be rewritten to actually be about Russian Americans (the waves for example are wrong), I've already started, but I will wait until we clear this up. Sotnik (talk) 19:26, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, its been quite some time now, I'm going to start my rewrite, if you have any question for me, please feel free to message me. Sotnik (talk) 05:00, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

• All fooian American articles by by-country; not by-ethnic groups. Go read them. These are the facts. This article will not be re-written to match the POV of one editor. Hmains (talk) 02:56, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Numerous counterexamples: Punjabi Mexican American, Tibetan American, Indo-Caribbean American, Kalmyk American, etc.

As for this article, if there is some sourced controversy over what is the definition of a Russian American, it should address it. (For that matter, if there is actually a source which bothers to define the term "Russian American" in the first, we should use that source's definition, rather than have the lead feature the ideas of some Wikipedian reasoning by analogy either to the Russians article or the Italian Americans article). This is a rather common problem when you're dealing with emigration from a multi-ethnic country, and the scholars who study migrant communities hardly ignore these problems --- e.g. Rosey Ma in Ember & Ember's encyclopedia discusses this in the context of whether Dungans and Panthay are part of a "Hui diaspora", "Chinese diaspora", or no such transnational identity at all, or Urmila Goel who plain old denies that one can speak of "Indians in Germany" as a cohesive unit to the extent that most of her published works put the word Indian in scare quotes. cab (talk) 04:13, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

"Nevertheless, the wide-ranging policy of Russification, which involved the training and indoctrination of various non-Russian groups into the Russian language, culture, and identity, together with the establishment of Russian elites in non-Russian parts of the former Soviet Union, meant that immigrants who were not ethnically Russian were oriented towards Russian-speaking environments, were often identified by Americans as Russians, and frequently made significant contributions to Russian American life. As such, members of these Russified groups must be considered as important parts of the popoulation. During the first decades of the 20th century, several nationality groups, including Germans, Poles, and Latvians, were enumerated as Russians in U.S. censuses. Further, since about 1900, over half of all Americans who trace their origins to the former Soviet Union have been Jews".

The new Americans: a guide to immigration since 1965, p. 580

Here's one quote which argues on one side of this problem. This is just something I found after banging around on Google Books for a few minutes --- this is not me advocating the "proper viewpoint" on how we should address this subject. It's just a starting point for further investigation. An attitude of "This is not changing universally in WP and thus not in any one article" misrepresents the topic area as it tries to impose a single standard on an area which is inherently not standardisable --- people's view of what is their own ethnicity, and the views of "insiders" and "outsiders" of the validity of others' claims on a certain identity which is tied to an ancestral state but also to a "titular nationality" of that state. cab (talk) 04:30, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmains, I'm going to quote myself from above, hyphenated-Americans articles are part of the Category:Ethnic groups in the United_States, Russians are an ethnic groups, other ethnicities from Russia are not ethnic Russians i.e. not the same ethnic group. That is not just my own point of view. If you wish to see sources for that open up a page for each of those groups and look at the reference sections. Also re-read the discussion from above, specifically, there are articles for Rusyn_American and Basque-Americans, the first group comes primary from Ukraine and the second from Spain, yet there are article about those ethnic groups in America., so what you saying is incorrect. If you have something else to add, by all means. Sotnik (talk) 04:36, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Here's some proposed wording, anyone have comments?

Russian Americans are Americans of Russian background who identify as such. Not all people with ancestors from Russia or of Russophone background consider themselves Russian American or are considered as such by other Russian Americans. Russia is a multi-ethnic country, and little early migration from Russia to the United States actually consisted of ethnic Russians; conversely many non-ethnic Russians who migrated found themselves categorized as Russians by the American government and people, and made significant contributions to Russian American life.

The sources for this are the quote mentioned above, p. 80 of Magosci and Stotsky's The Russian Americans [7] which discusses briefly the conflict between Orthodox Russian Americans and Russian Jews, and another article by Magosci [8] (which mentions that "many Jews from the Russian Empire did not identify themselves as Russians"). cab (talk) 04:54, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi cab, thank you for your comments, they are quite insightful! There defiantly is confusion on this topic and that should be addressed in the article. What I would add is there is no confusion or controversy as to who is ethnically Russian and who is not. In fact, in Russian there are two separate words for an ethnic Russian (Russkii) and a Russian citizen of any ethnic background (Rossiyanin). So that makes it somewhat different from India for example, where there is no "Indian" ethnic group, but rather, Punjabi, Tamil, etc (my knowledge of India is quite rudimentary, so please correct me if I'm wrong). Keeping that in mind, I believe what I wrote is very apt,

Russian Americans are citizens of the United States of Russian ethnicity.

Sometimes Americans of other ethnic backgrounds are also identified as Russian Americans based on past Russian citizenship, see Armenian-Americans, Jewish-Americans, Ukrainian-Americans, etc.

This makes it very clear that other ethnic groups may be [incorrectly] identified as Russian-Americans, but it makes [ethnic] Russian Americans the focus of the article, which makes sense because, 1) this is ultimately an article on ethnic groups in America and 2) the other groups are already covered in their own categories (Ukrainian-Americans for example). I don't think saying who identify as such make sense, because, even from my own experience, there are no non-ethnic Russians (even from Russia) who identify themselves as ethnic Russians. Nor is there any evidence that I've seen to ever suggest that. Likewise these communities are not they same, they don't share the same culture or even identity and really don't interact in any significant way. Sotnik (talk) 06:20, 15 June 2010 (UTC)