Talk:Human

Human Photo

I do not like the fact that humans are the only species on wikipedia whose bodies are covered with clothing. It is not an article on 'clothing', it is an article on homo sapiens. Please change the photo to represent our current species, not cultural attire.

"Human Beings are not Omnviores" argument

There is argument that human beings are not omnivores due to research which shows human beings have very herbivore-like characteristics.

While I am not of this opinion for reasons I will mention, I think we ought to have a sentence or two elaboration, perhaps another source on why human beings are omnivores, not herbivores or frugivores. The arguments I've encountered attempt to use the cow as an example. Because the cow is classified as an herbivore and happens to consume bone and blood meal, they are like us (the argument says) in that they are merely herbivores getting by on eating animal product.

My counterpoints have to do with the fact cows are domesticated animals practically forced to eat bone/bloodmeal which is often masked by plant-based molasses anyway. In addition, Human brain evolution correlates with flesh intake, and human beings are still unable to break down cellulose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ajkochanowicz (talk • contribs) 05:58, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

You may be interested in reading the two gigantic archived threads down at the bottom of Talk:Human/Archive_31#Humans_are_herbivores. —Soap— 18:21, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Lead image

There seems to have been an attempt to change the lead image without consensus. There is a long standing agreement based on a very long period of discussion to have the Akha image in the lead. If you want to change it, please discuss the reasons here first. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect, Martin Hogbin, could you please provide a link to the Section of Archived Discussion to which you refer? The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 03:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

To interject: Most recent RFC, Most recent discussion --Cybercobra (talk) 04:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Cybercobra! I personally don't care one way or another what lead image we use, but I figured whoever still wants to change it should at least have a quick link like that to the correct Archives. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:01, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I just missed it, but what was the reason for the specific limitation to just one variety of human? If we take a look at dogs, for example, we see a small selection of the different varieties. I'm sure there exists, or could be made, an image that could show a number of different human... I really don't want to say "breeds", and "race" is something of a social construct but I think you get the point. It would be more representative of the species to show a man and/or woman of each of, for example, East Asian, Caucasian, African, and Middle Eastern decent.Embolalia (talk) 01:28, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Click on "Most recent RFC" and "Most recent discussion". In my opinion, it's not a bad choice - shows both genders, whole bodies, in context with a background, clothing and possessions. Though an image like this one shows many phenotypes, you would never be able to show whole bodies with anything approaching the detail of the current image. But if you are really sure the image should be changed, you should review previous discussion first. In the meantime, I've added the mugshot image to the race section. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 01:39, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

The image is just about perfect because it shows average humans.

1. Most people aren't particularly dark or light skinned, but a sort of brown.
2. Most people are from Asia, and most of those from east Asia.
3. Most people throughout history have been farmers. I don't know if that's true anymore. Maybe a new image should show a pair of factory workers.
4. People are basically divided into two types: Men and Women. Very few exceptions to this.
5. Most people are pretty poor, but not shockingly poor.
6. ?

Agree that the Akha image is very suitable for all the (unsigned) reasons above! I think even if people want to rotate the image to have a different view of humanity every week, that would be fine by me, though a bit silly since the Akha does the job so well. But please never again use a stylized image in which the woman has no vagina. Unbelievably prudish and inaccurate.222.94.40.22 (talk) 06:10, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

First sentence

This intrigues me. It seems that the standard first sentence for articles about species begins as follows:

• The Species is a...

Even the articles about some of our closest relatives, the Neanderthals, begin this way. Why, then, does the article about humans began differently? —ems24 16:13, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

"Humans are a species of animal known taxonomically as Homo sapiens (Latin: "wise man" or "knowing man"),[3][4] and are the only extant member of the Homo genus of bipedal primates in Hominidae, the great ape family. However, in some cases "human" is used to refer to any member of the genus Homo" (Italics added). This beginning is very much to the effect of saying "The Species is" as you refer to, as far as I can see, so what exactly is your point? The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 05:05, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I guess the reason is that, in English, "The human is a species" sounds funny. Ucucha 07:33, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Move to human (species) or homo sapiens

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Human → Human (species) or Homo sapiens — This article takes a specialistic (not generalistic) approach toward defining human beings. But given that humankind and human being redirect here, I think it important to separate the scientific concept of "homo sapiens" from the actual concept of "human" and "human being."

For example even in colloquial language, a "human being" is not "an animal." And yet in scientific classification, genus homo is a sub class of the primates. Both are true: The homo sapien body is of animal basis, and yet a human being is not an "animal." This points to a schism between how science sees people and how actual people see people. I think this rift is best dealt with via a separation between the scientific and the human conceptualizations. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 18:40, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

• Keep as 'human'. The article deals with all aspects of humans. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:55, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. Please describe the other article (humanistic, non-scientific) approach more. I can't see it. something like people, a legal concept? Chrisrus (talk) 19:07, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

People is a general term for humans but its not the proper way to disambiguate the meaning of human species from human being. Note that article largely points to person. And note that "personhood" is not just a legal concept - its a human concept. The point is this - that this article either follow a generalistic path - one in which the scientific detail is put in its place relative to other human detail (ie. one in which humans are not regarded as an animal species) or it follows the specialistic path, namely that it represents the colloquial meaning of "human" and the scientific detail is migrated off to 'genus homo species sapeins.' I think what happened here is that people wanted an integrated article, but the scientific conceptualizations started asserting themselves over the more general concept. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 19:28, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, humans, people, are animals, of course, so we wouldn't want wikipedia to imply that we're not. Then there is the concept of person which might include theoretical non-humans, which is dealt with in people, so what would the "colloqual" or "generalistic" article contain/look like/be? Describe it's nature and scope, give an example. I tend to agree with Martin, but I want to hear you out. Also, I was thinking about proposing a merger of this article with people, so what do you think about that idea? Martin? Chrisrus (talk) 19:40, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose Move Nom seems to be confusing humanity and personhood. If anything, it sounds like the problem is that human being might need to be redirected elsewhere. --Cybercobra (talk) 22:37, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. I don't understand the dichotomy. Humans are animals; when people make a distinction between humans and non-human animals, it is a distinction of personhood, for which we already have an article. Powers ^T 00:12, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose - if you want to explain this "dichotomy", there is plenty of scope to do so in the article text. There is no need to move the article to explain this point. Knepflerle (talk) 10:54, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose, there's no clear proposal, but it might be good to add a third hatnote for those looking for/better served by the article person. Chrisrus (talk) 12:43, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose. As Chrisrus says, there's no clear proposal here. If the nominator feels that the present article doesn't serve its topic well, the nominator should improve the article. Otherwise, moving it won't produce any improvement. — Gavia immer (talk) 21:24, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Ive been away and haven't had time to check up on this. I think the consensus decision is wrong here, based on a largely classifying point of view, and am going to pose the question in a broader forum. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 17:27, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Would you also support moving the horse article to Equus caballus? —Soap— 00:18, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Section 4.2 Physiology needs improvement

The paragraph here is an explanation about the field of human physiology. As this article is about humans themselves and not merely the study of them, this section should go into the physiology of a human being than explain what physiology is. 68.1.172.2 (talk) 13:19, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

RFC: Can this article be split along lines of scientific classification and humanistic focus?

This began as a move proposal for the article - to clarify and differentiate scientific classifications of "human" and to separate in distinct articles according to the basic human species and human being distinction. Without this distinction, this article tends to talk less about beings as it does species.

Prior rationale

This article takes a specialistic (not generalistic) approach toward defining human beings. But given that humankind and human being redirect here, I think it important to separate the scientific concept of "homo sapiens" from the actual concept of "human" and "human being." For example even in colloquial language, a "human being" is not "an animal." And yet in scientific classification, genus homo is a sub class of the primates. Both are true: The homo sapien body is of animal basis, and yet a human being is not an "animal." This points to a schism between how science sees people and how actual people see people. I think this rift is best dealt with via a separation between the scientific and the human conceptualizations. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 17:37, 29 August 2010 (UTC) I think the reason your previous proposal failed is that people did not agree with the distinction you draw. The move request was soundly rejected; I don't see the point in rehashing the point in an RFC. Ucucha 17:46, 29 August 2010 (UTC) I also do not see the distinction that you draw. Could you please explain what is missing from this article. We already have a section on sprituality and religion. What is it you want to see? Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC) It looks to me like an excellent article that tries to do a little too much. Both the scientific overview and the humanistic overviews are extremely well done. I think however that, like with any large article, its impossible to forsee how a large article will develop if its split in accord with logical distinctions. Both the scientific examination and the humanistic overview can benefit from a split. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 18:05, 29 August 2010 (UTC) PS: Note that it looks like we can generalize this article's lede quite a bit, to remove it from the clutches of an exclusively classifying classification, and deal with the actual essence of the human being concept. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 19:02, 29 August 2010 (UTC) What do you mean by, 'the actual essence of the human being concept'? What reliable sources describe this? Martin Hogbin (talk) 23:51, 29 August 2010 (UTC) Seconded. What exactly is the "humanistic overview" you suggest? How is it not sufficiently covered by the existing material in this article and Person? --Cybercobra (talk) 02:11, 30 August 2010 (UTC) The overview should be just about three paragraphs perhaps. Just enough to give a general introduction before going straight into SPOV. The issue with the current layout is that WP:SPOV is not NPOV. Starting out with a purely scientific view of the human organism comes at the cost of a neutral overview of the actual human being. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 04:21, 30 August 2010 (UTC) (edit conflict) I fail to understand your logic in making the drastic leap from "the article could be improved" to "it needs to be split". --Cybercobra (talk) 04:25, 30 August 2010 (UTC) Actually the leap was the other way around. I saw the article as being dominated by a SPOV, such that I proposed "homo sapiens" to be a better fit, leaving "human" to be an overview and "human being" to deal with the subjective human aspects. I think it will develop along those lines, but I just a while ago came to look at it from the eventualist view, in addition to the generalist view. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 06:05, 30 August 2010 (UTC) Steve, you still have not explained exactly what you mean by the 'subjective aspects', the 'actual essence of the human being concept', and 'neutral overview of the actual human being.'. Please can you explain exactly what you mean. Can you give some exaple of text you would like to see. Martin Hogbin (talk) 08:36, 30 August 2010 (UTC) Ive written a new lede along the lines with what I believe was needed. Comment freely. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 20:29, 30 August 2010 (UTC) It would have been better if had have made clear and discussed your proposals here first. Martin Hogbin (talk) 21:47, 30 August 2010 (UTC) "Better" is a qualitative description. How, in your own opinion, would it have been "better?" -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 22:11, 30 August 2010 (UTC) Undue Weight Steve's recent changes seem to give undue weight to speculative, non-evidence based theories of the nature of humans. Chrisrus (talk) 20:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC) (cutting in) Calling certain theories "non-evidenced based" is promoting of a point of view - one that labels all non-science as something which can be dispensed with. In fact calling them "theories" is a gross misconceptualization. WP:SPOV is not NPOV, and the "human" article belongs to all things human - not just those things which belong to taxonomy. The name "human" refers to more than a taxonomical concept or to things that can be discovered with a scalpel. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 21:43, 30 August 2010 (UTC) I have no comment right now about the changes but wish to point out that you have a misunderstanding og wikipedia policy, please reread [1] so that you understand what "undue weight" means. Limiting the view point to only "evidence based theories" is a violation of undue weight. Hardyplants (talk) 20:58, 30 August 2010 (UTC) This link explains that we should invoke "undue weight" when an article does such things as give equal time to the flat earth theory. This is a very good description of my opinion on this matter. I take it you disagree, but if so, you disagree with my accessment of traditional theories of the nature of human beings, not with my understanding of the concept of undue weight. We'll see how others feel. Is this a case of "giving equal time to flat earth theories"? Chrisrus (talk) 21:06, 30 August 2010 (UTC) Not even close, the topic of this article is humans and there are also cultural and psychological understandings that also should be included so that the topic is covered in a through way. Hardyplants (talk) 21:26, 30 August 2010 (UTC) I think this change is the one under discussion. I am concerned by this edit, especially that "the human being is transcendent of all animalia", which implies (to me) a strong distinction between humans and animals. I think this distinction is wrong, or at least over-stated: animals use tools and self aware. Those cited are (generally) philosophers; those actually studying animals would probably be better placed to judge their relative intelligence and language skills. Also, there's a citation for wikianswers, which is inappropriate. --h2g2bob (talk) 21:46, 30 August 2010 (UTC) Does that one single citation negate the whole combined edit? The web citation attributes its information to EO Wilson. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 21:48, 30 August 2010 (UTC) It doesn't negate the whole list, but it is the only reference applying to "human beings are the highest [order] among known living organism". A direct reference is more appropriate than a posting on a website. In any case the reference doesn't actually mention high or low order, but mentions intelligence. So you should say "humans are the most intelligent animal" (which is much less controversial) and cite Edward O. Wilson directly. My general point is that making a strong distinction is a controversial and the introduction is one-sided towards there being a strong disctinction. --h2g2bob (talk) 22:02, 30 August 2010 (UTC) h2g2bob writes: "It doesn't negate the whole list" its not a list. Its an edit. In fact its explanatory writing that deals with the subject, namely the concept "human" denoted by the word "human." h2g2bob writes: "I am concerned by this edit, especially that "the human being is transcendent of all animalia", which implies (to me) a strong distinction between humans and animals. I think this distinction is wrong, or at least over-stated: animals use tools and self aware." - Do animals have language? Linguists say no. Do animals have rational thought? Philosophers and cognitive scientists point to interesting little examples. So how then does a little "tool use" compare in the least to what human beings can do. The difference is 'transcendental.' Note also that what you are arguing for is not science. Good science gathers data and presents it. It doesn't presume to disprove or negate non-science. Bad science is presenting quantitative data and melding it with a qualitiative opinion, and presenting that qualitative opinion as if it were as factual as qualitative data. -Stevertigo (t | log | c) 22:06, 30 August 2010 (UTC)