Talk:Croatian language

1RR

This article has become another battleground. Enough is, quite frankly, enough of the edit warring, as the article is now protected for the fourth time since July due to it. We're going to try something new. Starting now, this article; under the discretionary sanctions authorised in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia; is hereby placed on a 1RR restriction. This means one revert, per user, per day. This restriction is per person, not per account. The most obvious vandalism is excepted from this restriction, and I do mean obvious. This restriction applies to all users, and I will place an edit notice of this for the article. Any appeals should be directed towards my talk page in the first instance, or Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement in the second. Courcelles 11:52, 4 October 2025 (UTC)

The above timestamp has intentionally been moved forward 15 years, to stop automatic archival. True timestamp: Courcelles 11:53, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

But your "editing" concept, Courcelles, (I am refering to the joke of wikipedia being an "open encyclopedia") is also plain nonsense. For example, although I am of Spanish origins, I am a linguist, unlike the "editors" who hold the rights to decide what goes. And I see in the first paragraph a plain LIE. Not just an error, but a LIE. And one so sadly typcal for the croatian nationalists who are only capable of displaying stupidity and ignorance when a discussion is being held.

Here's the error: "Two dialects, Chakavian and Kajkavian, are exclusively Croatian..."

One has to be a moron and a croat igonrant motivated by his/her nationalist hatred for the rest of the world, as they are, to say something like that. Kajkavian is NOT exclusively croatian dialect because it is official language of Slovenia.

Fullstop.

Anyone wishing to debate this point is an idiot with no knowledge. In the light of that, the second part of the same erroneous sentence (the second sentence of the first paragraph of this joke of the page, is just as stupid: "and there are a few Croatian speakers of a third, Torlakian."

Croats speaking that dialect, by default live in, nowadays, different countries. Countries situated on the eastern side of the southeastern Europe. Torlakian is specific to the people Croatians hate so passionately and want to be disassociated from by inventing their own language.

So to say that Torlakian is the third "dialect" of non-existent "croatian" language, is only to promote political agendas.

This primitive and continuous "croatian" effort to re-write and re-design linguistic history of the language is what should be really sanctioned here. That is what the real problem is. These primitive ignorants are tryingto tell us, the real scientists, what is the politically correct "truth" so that they can point their finger at their own brothers and say: "We a re not like you!". And then go to church and declare themselves "Love thy neighbour", "christians"...

The good news is that wikipedia is, fortunately, not authority on linguistics and serious scientific studies. Not even a reference. So no matter how much peasants from Dinaric mountains, still chasing sheep (both serbs and croats) work on distorting the facts, the facts will not be distorted.

There's only one language and it cannot be named anything other than serbo-croatian, or croato-serbian, whichever way your political schizofrenia goes. That is the fact. Now all you "linguists" go on about your stupid efforts to invent your "languages", but in the real life, the one that is only based on cold hard scientific facts, your languages do NOT exist.

The sooner you accept that, the better for all, and your primitive and bestial nationalisms may even subside. Hopefully even get cured one day.

And Curcelles, please correct the above error and remove the statement that kajkavian is "exclusive" croatian dialect. Because it is not. It is also used in Slovenian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.22.91.241 (talk) 00:18, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

It's not up to Courcelles to correct any error. It's up to the regular editors here to reach a consensus. They can then use {{edit protected}} to request that the agreed edit be made to a fully protected page. TFOWR 00:25, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Message by 120.22.91.241 is full of anti-Croat ethnic slurs. Kubura (talk) 02:53, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Obviously. There are bigots on all sides. — kwami (talk) 06:32, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

People, what's with you?

Why is this http://www.ihjj.hr/oHrJeziku.html, reference removed? I see censorship here. Are we having a case of ethnic segregation here? Topic is Croatian language, and someone has deleted the reference from the very regulator (the institution) that regulates that language! That's vandalism! And such vandalised version is still the actual version (04:11 CET, 9 Nov 2010).
Admins, how can you tolerate such behaviour on the pages of en.wiki?
Are you blind to the dissruptive behaviour and malignant NPOV writing?
All our protests are met with such disinterest, that it is downright insulting.
How can we be treated like this ? If this was done to someone else, this would have created such an uproar in the Wiki community. But, since this is about a small nation like the Croats, then behavioural pattern is "they in somehow deserve it: we can not uderstand their history or culture, they are insignificant ....".
This bias, discrimination and bullying should stop! Why is not one intervening and taking a stand Is this cause undeserving, or would this limit other user's in achieving some extra privilege or would this reduce the number of badges and banners of merit on their user pages? Is the mantra: I am not a Croat - I don't care the one which is taken about this problem, and anyone who is a Croat is immediatlely dismissed as a "crazed chauvinistic nazi nationalist".
Admins, open your eyes! Toleration of such disruptive behaviour will encourage such behaviour throughout en.wiki. And then you won't be able to stop it. Because such users will push you out. They never stop. They always want more. The more you give in to bullies, the bolder they become.
Always remember this [1] "When they came for me, there was no-one left to speak out." Kubura (talk) 03:36, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

You know the tale about the boy who cried "wolf"?

So where was your "censored" reference? Here's the diff between Mir Haven's version of September 7 and the today's version. There's no "IHJJ" string anywhere in sight. Here's the version from January 3 2010, and there's no that reference either.

False accusations do not improve your credibility... to put it mildly. No such user (talk) 08:10, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, No such user, I haven't posted the diff, since it "fell out" while I was shortening my message in the text editor.
But I'm not making things up.
Here is the removing of that reference [2], 28 Oct 2010, by user Tbhotch (later Kwamikagami did that [3] etc.).
Who's lying now, No such user? Who's now saying false accusations?
No such user, your credibility is visible here [4]. When it doesn't suits you, you simply remove whole section. Unexplained blanking the section. If you disagreed with the form, you had to promptly replace it with another one: but you haven't. You simply deleted.
So, what is this [5], No such user? Am I making things up? Or it's easier to falsely accuse the opponents?
Live with the fact that Croatian is not a form of some frankensteinic "Serbo-Croatian". Croatian language is a unique South Slavic language. With its own unique history of development. Kubura (talk) 00:52, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Removal of the referenced text

I see censorship again. Whole cited sentence from the reference [6] [7], "Croats long objected to the artificial pairing of their language with Serbian during the Yugoslav era" <ref>[http://www.rferl.org/content/Serbian_Croatian_Bosnian_or_Montenegrin_Many_In_Balkans_Just_Call_It_Our_Language_/1497105.html Radio Free Europe - Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Or Montenegrin? Or Just 'Our Language'?] Živko Bjelanović: Similar, But Different, Feb 21, 2009, accessed Oct 8, 2010 </ref>had disappeared from the article. Please, read WP:CENSOR. We're trying to build an encyclopedia.
Živko Bjelanović is the linguist. Therefore, he's the source.
If someone has to add something to the referenced line, it would be nice if that is done by adding the text, not by deleting the text (or even adding something that's not written in the referenced text at all!) because certain user doesn't want that text to be seen at all.
Why is censored that? No need for that at all. Even in version from now (04:56 CET, 9 Nov 2010), there's no original cited sentence.
People, let's cooperate. Kubura (talk) 03:59, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

"People, let's cooperate"--WP:POT. --Taivo (talk) 04:20, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Taivo, I'm trying to calm things down, but your message looks inflammatory.
BTW, stop hounding me. Read WP:HOUND. Kubura (talk) 23:50, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Funny thing is that even wikipedia

in "serbo-croatian" states nothing about croatian language being a form of some "serbo-croatian". That explains nonsence that some editors are pursuing. Etnologue, widely referenced source (even here in wikipedia for other languages), together with International standardisation organisation (ISO), consider Croatian to be a language. It is obvious that editors pushing the first sentence are either victims of some misapprehension or victims of the communist and anti-national propaganda from the time of Yugoslavia. This, however, does not give anyone the right to neglect related sources. Arguing that "serbo-croatian" is an established term in english speaking countries (quite dubious and doubt that more than 1% of highly educated people in these countries ever heard of this term) is not something to call for when giving argumentation. If one would follow this rule, wikipedia would be full of such "established" stances, despite the fact that institutes and universities (the minority, or "nationalists" how some call them) states otherwise... International Standardisation Organisation, Etnologue and Institute of Croatian language and linguistics are the most competent sources for this subject and in case of controversy, their standpoint should prevail, giving the right to the different position to be mentioned as well. The way the article is written now is biased and not mentioning even a pinch of what the aforementioned institutes say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.177.166 (talk) 22:58, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian is a terrible misnomer, as the overlap between Croatian and Serbian is limited to štokavian dialect. The other two dialects are exclusively spoken by ethnic Croatians, so it's ludicrous to call them Serbian (like the term "Serbo-Croatian" implies). Someone here wrote that kajkavian dialect is the official language in Slovenia. It is most certainly not. The fact that standard Slovenian, like kajkavian, uses the interrogative pronoun 'kaj' doesn't make kajkavian dialect Slovenian. It's merely a transitional dialect between Croatian and Slovenian, much like Torlakian is a transitional one between Serbian and Bulgarian (and Macedonian) languages. So, dialectologically speaking, only štokavian Croatian qualifies to be included into 'Serbo-Croatian', but this term is largely abandoned and its use is generally frowned upon in Croatia. So what's the point in calling Croatian a "form of Serbo-Croatian" when its speakers don't recognize it as such? Languages are not created at whim of some university professors or by some institution. They are living organisms; created, animated and sustained by their speakers. 93.136.58.29 (talk) 12:56, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Obviously these two anon IPs have not been reading the discussion to this point. On the one hand, they talk about "Croatian" to encompass all the Western South Slavic dialects that are spoken in the country of Croatia, but then only include the literary languages when discussing "Serbo-Croatian". Can't have it both ways, boys. In English linguistic usage, "Serbo-Croatian" refers to all the mutually intelligible non-Slovenian Western South Slavic dialects, not just the literary standard of Yugoslavia. As such, it includes Kajkavian, Shtokavian, Chakavian, and Torlakian (unless one counts Torlakian as a Bulgarian dialect). They also do not understand that from the 16th edition of Ethnologue on, it is no longer an independent source, but is a reflection of ISO 639-3 (both Ethnologue and ISO 639-3 are now administered by SIL). So citing these two sources as two sources is no longer valid. Indeed, the 15th edition was already integrating the ISO 639-3 standard and one must go all the way back to the 14th edition in order to truly treat the two sources as two independent sources [8]. In the 14th edition, Serbo-Croatian and Slovenian are the two languages listed as forming West South Slavic. So get your story straight. All three standard literary languages, Bosnian, Croatian, and Serbian are Shtokavian. Shtokavian, Kajkavian, Chakavian, and Torlakian are Serbo-Croatian. Serbo-Croatian and Slovenian are West South Slavic. That is the most common English linguistic usage. --Taivo (talk) 13:28, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Absolute comedy. You fell into your own trap. Your definition, as above, is based on contardictions. Honestly, never or rarely seen crap. Chakavian and especially Kajkavian are closer to Slovene than to any kind of Serbian, but somehow they are S-C!? In the same time Slovene is not S-C!? But Torlakian is S-C although it is closer to Bulgarian than to Croatian?! And Bulgarian is not S-C?! Chakavians and Torlaks who don't understand each other are both S-C?! And where Serbo-Slavic language disseappeared in this deep analysis? This is much better than Monthy Python Flying Circus. 78.0.133.255 (talk) 12:06, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

It depends on the viewpoint taken. Russian and Bulgarian languages use "što" but it is never said that these are štokavian languages. The same goes with "kaj" in Slovenian language - Slovenian is not kajkavian. When you say štokavian dialect - then it must be štokavian regarding what. For instance, in Italy, languages are named after the region where they are spoken. Sicilian langage is spoken in Sicily etc... One must take a clear criteria and use it all the time. Now we come to Serbian. Serbian can not be considered to be štokavian for two important reasons. FIRST: Serbian language does not have the word "što" so tha assumable dialect can not be called after a word from other language (in this case Croatian). Serbian uses the word šta - so the dialect should be called štakavian - and that is not the case. SECOND: Even if we take Serbian language to be štokavian - well it is not consistent to the rule that Serbian language does not have any other dialect that could be classified in the same way like štokavian. So, if Russian, Bulgarian or any other slavic language that uses the word "što" is not based on štokavian dialect, how is it so that a language that does not posess the word što and has no other dialects that fit this classification can be based on štokavian dialect?

It is clear that this false classification does not stem from linguistics but from a political pot that was spilled in 1990. Nor is Slovenian kajkavian, nor is Serbian and Russian štokavian. This classification of dialects holds only for Croatian language.93.138.92.125 (talk) 19:59, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

In other words- http://www.matica.hr/Vijenac/vijenac427.nsf/AllWebDocs/Srpski_jezik_nije_stokavski. Be as it may, it's useless to waste time on this little clique (kwami, Štambuk, Taivo) & a few gullible fellow-travelers. What counts is that Croatian is 1) recognized internationally - http://hrv.nsk.hr/ . 2) recognized "politically" in EU admission talks - http://www.vecernji.ba/vijesti/hrvatski-postaje-24-sluzbeni-jezik-europske-unije-clanak-211952. So, this is the collapse of language policy the ICTY tried to impose. I guess the falsities English Wikipedia is spreading on Croatian language (re non-existent "Serbo-Croatian") will follow suit. Hastalavista ...Mir Harven (talk) 21:53, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

First of all, I actually did read the entire discussion and I'm writing this because the amount of politics involved here nothing short of appalling. That said, the term 'Croatian language' refers to both 'Croatian standard language' and 'language spoken by Croats', regardless of whether it's kajkavian, čakavian or štokavian. So no, I'm not talking about "Croatian" which encompasses all the Western South Slavic dialects that are spoken in the country of Croatia, but about all native Croatian dialects regardless of their territorial distribution (f.e. Gradišćanski, spoken in Austria and in Hungary), as well as about Croatian standard. If this article is about Croatian standard, then rename it to "Standard Croatian language". Second of all, there's a chain of intelligibility from Slovenia to Bulgaria, and yet nobody is calling that chain a single language. So, when you say ""Serbo-Croatian" refers to all the mutually intelligible non-Slovenian Western South Slavic dialects", it begs the question why exactly is that the case? The answer to that is not linguistics but politics and you know that very well Taivo. For example, Croatian dialects are farther apart among themselves than some neighboring Slavic languages are (Ukrainian vs. Belarusian comes to mind), so why lumping an arbitrarily chosen group of dialects into the same language? It's a product of two failed regimes and I think it's kind of historical irony that Croats have to fight this battle one more time. In the end, English linguistic usage of the term 'Serbo-Croat' is clearly faulty and is due to be revised. 93.136.58.29 (talk) 21:35, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

You don't appear to be very fluent in the linguistic literature, anon IP, if you think that I am talking about politics and not purely linguistics. Your statements about the dialects of non-Slovenian Western South Slavic show a fairly muddled view of the situation. You are wrong if you say that literary Serbian is not based on the Shtokavian dialect. All three of the literary standards of Croatia, Bosnia, and Serbia are directly based on Shtokavian. I suggest you actually examine the current linguistic models of Slavic relationships in the South Slavic group. The only politics involved are the politics of those who insist that Croatian is somehow not a part of this grouping, or that the dialects spoken by Croatians are somehow separate from the entire dialect continuum from Torlakian through Kajkavian, which is most commonly called "Serbo-Croatian" in English. --Taivo (talk) 21:47, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

What I said is that this entire matter is caused by politics, not linguistics. SC is a political name. Otherwise Slovene dialects would be included into "Serbo-Croatian", as they are mutually intelligible with Kajkavian. Of course Serbian is based on Štokavian, I never said anything about that. Neither have I said anything about Croatian not being a part of the local diasystem. My basic objection is about the name and status of "Serbo-Croatian". I tend to agree with Mir Harven. This artificial name will eventually die out, much like the regime which created it. So I'll accept his advice and stop losing time here. 93.136.58.29 (talk) 23:42, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

A little history: the English use of the name "Serbo-Croatian" dates to the 19th century, predating the formation of Yugoslavia. It was a creation of Gaj and other Croatian and Serbian nationalists, not of the Yugoslav state. It may very well die out, but until that day, it's common English usage and therefore the term we use on WP. — kwami (talk) 00:16, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

the English use of the name "Serbo-Croatian" dates to the 19th century - Nonsense! This is all full of apsurds. You are pushing this term, altough you don't know what does it mean or how it originated and how it was used! It doesn't matter who created it, but meaning matters. It was used by Illyrian movement propaganda (Croatian and Slovene writers)as artificial political term in the 19th century - idea was to form unique Slavic language which would unite and help different South Slavic peoples to resist to ocuppiers with non-Slavic official languages. No such language was ever formed and term remained what it was - just an idea. It was not even primal goal of that movement, just sporadical. But this way of use of term S-C, as you started here, is definitely related to 2 uses in 2 Yugoslavia political units in the 20th century. First Yugoslavia was transformed into dictatorship of Serbian monarch between WWI and WWII, who invented term "Serbo-Croato-Slovene language" to erase Croats, Slovenes... In those times even Albert Einstein was shocked by the politics of the Serbian monarch against Croats and sent many open letters to a several European governments and newspapers. Second Yugoslavia from '45 to '90 was dictatorship of the communists (one party system) who created term S-C, linguistically undefined, which was supposed to be imagibnary language of those who self-identified themselves as the Yugoslavs (which was not ethnicity, but it was possible to use it as nationality). And English use of the name dates to period of the 2nd Yugoslavia, but as reflection of politics, not linguistics! Term S-C was never linguistically defined. In the 19th Croatian Illyricists used it a few times for some supposed future language - didn't happen. Yugoslav communists used it for the same reason, they hoped that different peoples within Yugoslavia will all become Yugoslavs in future and speak some S-C language - didn't happen. But what happen is that a few pro-Yugoslav zombies have no other space to live in the past except English wikipedia and recently "Serbo-Croatian wikipedia" (monsterous idea, I feel sorry for them). 78.0.133.255 (talk) 09:55, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Of course, it is you, anon IP(s), who have turned (and continue to turn) this discussion into politics. This is a linguistic discussion and a linguistic discussion only. The linguistic facts, as shown in multiple reliable sources throughout this discussion is that the most common English term, in English language linguistic literature, for the non-Slovenian Western South Slavic dialects (Shtokavian, Kajkavian, Chakavian, etc.) is "Serbo-Croatian". We do not use "Serbo-Croatian" here for just the literary standard of Yugoslavia, but for the range of dialects. It's clear that you have nothing, anon IP, to contribute to this discussion other than the same political rhetoric that we have heard before from other named editors. --Taivo (talk) 13:50, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

You are funny. Your sorces like Kordić are political and used by you. Your S-C term is political not linguistic and used by you, linguistic sources are treated as nationalistic by you. But you conclude that your discussion is linguistic?! LOL And you say that Chakavian and Kajkavian are S-C but not Slovene, although Croatian Chakavian and Kajkavian are closer to Slovene language than to Croatian Štokavian, and although you base your S-C indoctrination on Štokavian. I'm citing myself (been written this an hour ago, a few rows above): Absolute comedy. You fell into your own trap. Your definition, as above, is based on contardictions. Honestly, never or rarely seen crap. Chakavian and especially Kajkavian are closer to Slovene than to any kind of Serbian, but somehow they are S-C!? In the same time Slovene is not S-C!? But Torlakian is S-C although it is closer to Bulgarian than to Croatian?! And Bulgarian is not S-C?! Chakavians and Torlaks who don't understand each other are both S-C?! And where Serbo-Slavic language disseappeared in this deep analysis? This is much better than Monthy Python Flying Circus. 78.0.133.255 (talk) 14:44, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

This is my last comment in this thread because you have offered nothing whatsoever to the discussion, but only nationalistic drivel. Kordic isn't one of my sources, since, as I have made quite clear, this being the English Wikipedia, then English language usage is primary. There are multiple English language linguistic sources (cited many times earlier in this discussion) that show the non-Slovenian Western South Slavic dialects labeled "Serbo-Croatian". Your political, nationalistic ranting doesn't change that fact, whether you like it or not. --Taivo (talk) 17:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Taivo, it seems you lost your nervs. You can't say that a selection of sources is more important than truth. There are hundreds of millions of sources writen in english that state a lie. Here it is not about sources in any language but about the truth. Truth is the first victim of your work.Hammer of Habsburg (talk) 19:58, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

It's more like he's lost his patience with puerile and amateurish ranting from a certain segment of the population. Exposing and debunking the nationalistic and politically-laced arguments (against shrill cries of "Yugounitarist!", "Chetnik!", "Bolshevik!", "Yugonostalgic!", "Titoist!") is as easy as shooting fish in a barrel. After a while it gets a little boring because it isn't a terribly demanding mental exercise given all of the peer-reviewed analysis and evidence published so far that refutes nationalist logic. At the same time it can be instructive and even mildly entertaining to see nationalists squirm mentally when dealing with people who can stay on topic by focusing on linguistics (this is after all a language article, right?). The truth is this: Many Croats vocally and stubbornly refuse to countenance that what they have learned in school as "Croatian" in its modern form and been indoctrinated to believe is a sterling example of the imaginary mental state called "Croathood" has a politically uncomfortable but scientifically demonstrable and far-reaching link with standard Serbian. Professional linguists from outside the Balkans who are unburdened by peculiarly Balkan political, sociological or cultural whims come reliably and decisively to the conclusion that we are dealing with a pluricentric language called "Serbo-Croatian" or "Bosnian/Croatian/(Montenegrin)/Serbian" regardless of what natives' views are on some political entity called Yugoslavia. What we're left with is presentation of two broadly-defined sides with non-Balkan linguists staying true to their profession and training in linguistic analysis and Balkan ones often gladly subordinating their profession and professional training to the desires of non-specialists with fanciful national or political aspirations. Vput (talk) 22:56, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

This is nonsense, and this wiki-wannabe incarnation of small man Putin has put it all wrong. Well- all has been said. It remains, for umpteenth time, to give relevant linguists linx & goodbye:

Ranko Matasović: Serbo-Croatian has never existed, http://www.matica.hr/Vijenac/vijenac383.nsf/AllWebDocs/Srpsko_hrvatski_nikada_nije_ostvaren__jer_nije_postojao

Radoslav Katičić: Serbian language is not štokavian, http://www.matica.hr/Vijenac/vijenac427.nsf/AllWebDocs/Srpski_jezik_nije_stokavski

As far as orchestrated propaganda offensive about worthless pamphlet authored by Snježana Kordić goes-

Mario Grčević: War on Croatian language and Orthography, http://hakave.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7171:dr-sc-mario-grevi-rat-za-hrvatski-jezik-i-pravopis-i-dio&catid=114:kultura&Itemid=45

Nataša Bašić: Strategy and strategists in showdown with Croatian language and linguistics, http://hakave.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7165:strategija-i-stratezi-u-obraunu-s-hrvatskim-jezikom-i-jezikoslovljem&catid=114:kultura&Itemid=45 Mir Harven (talk) 12:19, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, not a neutral linguist in the bunch--all of them nationalists driven by a nationalistic ideology. Oh, yes, there's a problem--any linguist who disagrees with the nationalist agenda is a Titoist, etc., no matter what nationality that linguist is. The problem is that linguists from Croatia start their work with a foregone conclusion and then amass evidence to support that conclusion. Any evidence that doesn't support the conclusion is discarded or the linguist pointing it out is "discarded". It's like the Mormon church hiring an archeologist to prove the Book of Mormon--if the archeologist finds data that prove otherwise, then either the data are ignored or the archeologist loses his/her job. --Taivo (talk) 13:53, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

It's quite illuminating to see how these linguists like to militarize a (socio)linguistic topic by throwing in the terms "propaganda offensive", "war" or "strategy" or reply with blanket denials (i.e. "Serbo-Croatian does not exist", "Serbian is not Shtokavian (unlike Croatian which is)" using sleights of hand of faulty logic rather than corpus data, attested texts or unadulterated results from independent fieldwork. I rest my case as those links from Mir Harven show how nominally Croatian linguists overstep their academic boundaries and fancy themselves to be political mouthpieces/cultural missionaries, editorial writers or figurative soldiers in contrast to most of their colleagues outside the Balkans who stay true to their profession and resist becoming political tools. If these Croatian linguists are indeed so gung-ho and are closet soldiers or closet generals, they could certainly find a better fit for their martial dreams and allegories by joining the Croatian army. On another note it's also indicative of the mentality of the Croatian nationalists when they resort either to hurling Yugoslavian-era epithets at outsiders who have no emotional baggage from living in the Balkans or imagining that others who contradict them are representatives of traditional bogeymen (i.e. Serbs or others who are ideological/traditional enemies). The similarity of "Vput" to the Russian and presumably pro-Serbian "V. Putin" is coincidental and if Mir Harven were to have even a shred of knowledge in Slavonic languages other than the oh-so-precious "Croatian", Mir Harven would realize that Vput has meaning unrelated to "V. Putin"). Calling people who legitimately question the Croatian nationalist take as "Serbian agents", "Titoists" only illustrates how far the nationalists extend their idealized nationalist/political conceptions to questions of language classification or linguistic analysis. Vput (talk) 15:55, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

It is quite obvious the administrators (and some other members) here are not only biased but also outright inimical towards Croats, with virtually every comment about the inconsistencies in the term 'Serbo-Croat' being called 'nationalist' and whatnot. What's wrong with you people? Going by your (inherently faulty) logic, one has to be a non-Croat in order to have a neutral opinion about Croatian language? No wonder hardly anyone takes wiki seriously. 78.0.254.181 (talk) 23:40, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

This article smacks heavily on politics, with Croatian language rendered to just a part of some imaginary 'Serbo-Croatian'. As if we all speak just one language and the divide is caused by politics and nationalism. You people should be ashamed of yourselves!161.53.243.70 (talk) 11:32, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Good to hear that this article does not bow down to political motives. Croatian (language) is defined politically (or ethno-politically) and is, as stated, a standard form of what in English is called Serbo-Croatian: the mutually intelligible varieties that include Croatian and Serbian. Any divide between Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian (and Montenegrin) is political, small as the differences are. --JorisvS (talk) 11:37, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Of course it does bow to political motives, especially to those aiming to erase or marginalize the differences between these languages. It is beyond any doubt that standard Croatian and Serbian languages are both based on a single dialect, though only dialectologically, not sociolinguistically, but it is plainly insane to include the other two Croatian macro dialects, Chakavian & Kajkavian, in the mix, as they are closer to each other than they are to Štokavian, and much less mutually intelligible with Serbian language. Also, you speak here as if a random Croatian speaker is politically driven (or maybe he is even an eeeevil nationalist!) to recognize his Serbian neighbors speak a similar, yet different language! The bigotry here is simply deplorable.161.53.243.70 (talk) 15:28, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

So are Chakavian and Kajkavian a different language to Standard Croatian? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:35, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Linguistically speaking, Chakavian and Kajkavian both exhibit enough of a difference compared to Standard Croatian to be considered separate languages. Including them inside the Serbo-Croatian spectrum of dialects is also politically driven in the sense that they're included only because Croatian linguists consider them dialects (on a more ethnical/national level than a linguistic one) of Croatian. It can be argued that putting Kajkavian/Chakavian along with other Serbo-Croatian dialects is the same as labeling Croatian Standard language a separate language from Serbian only because it's spoken by Croats.Tty29a (talk) 15:59, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

And that's why I personally don't. Unless we have reliable sources that say these should really be considered separate languages, there is not much we can do about it, though. But it really doesn't matter in the debate over the Croatian vs. Serbian standards, as these are both Štokavian and very much mutually intelligible. --JorisvS (talk) 16:08, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

A random Croatian believing s/he speaks a "Croatian language" which is separate from the language people speak in Serbia, Bosnia, or Montenegro may well not be politically motivated to believe this. S/he has, however, picked up politically motivated propaganda/lies(/or whatever you want to call it) from people who are, directly or indirectly. --JorisvS (talk) 16:15, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

So you're saying the Croatian people's name for their language is the product of a lie? And you don't see how that could possibly be perceived as a problem? This style of debate is becoming increasingly annoying. By now it's on par with the excessively nationalist style on my scale of annoyance. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 16:28, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I tried to get you to read beyond the words (unsuccessfully), it seems you got stuck at the word "lie". I tried to get you to read more or less the following in it: People spread ideas, all people do. These may or may not reflect reality. In our case here, the concept of a Croatian language (using the English definition of the word) structurally separate from a Serbian language was happily spread by people politically motivated to split Croatia fromand Serbia, but it does not reflect reality (structurally the differences are quite minor). People unaware of the political motivations behind such an idea will often come to believe it true and will then probably spread the idea further, without they themselves being motivated politically. Whether you want to call the concept then propaganda (since it is happily spread by those having a political agenda), lies (since the idea does not reflect reality and was intentionally spread by some), or something else, I really don't care. --JorisvS (talk) 16:59, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

That's actually a fairly arbitrary point. I can't believe the bias against sociolinguistics has to be so overwhelming that you have to resort to this kind of endless doubt at the motives of all the readers who subscribe to a different interpretation...

And the pitfall of a double standard that we've fallen into is annoying, too. If you're tired of the obvious Dano-Norwegian example, let's try with a car analogy - the lead sections of Toyota Aygo and Peugeot 107 are phrased in a more neutral manner (or rather, a less inflammatory manner) than the lead section of this article. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 15:53, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

There is no bias against sociolinguistics. Sociolinguistics just has nothing to say about language's nature structurally or what should be considered separate languages (this is not to say that this doesn't happen sometimes, erroneously), which is where the car analogy breaks down. --JorisvS (talk) 18:00, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Err, so how do I respond to this without asking you first to delete the article on dialectology :) Objective structural properties of language systems are not the single immutable criterion upon which encyclopedia articles about them must be composed. Just like the article on homo sapiens does not have to state in the first sentence how the human genome matches chimpanzee genome >98% - it's just not the most useful thing to say. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:27, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

To split Croatia from Serbia? Croats *believe* they speak Croatian because of the (probably nationalist) propaganda?? What on earth are you talking about? I suggest you learn some basic history of this part of the world. Also, I fully subscribe to one of my compatriots here who said you people should be ashamed of yourselves. You very well should. The term 'Croatian language' is ancient compared to this modern notion of 'Serbo-Croatian'- e.g. "Iz veće tuđijeh jezika u hrvacki izložene" (early 17th century, Štokavian), "u versih harvacki složena" (16th century, Čakavian) etc.93.136.41.26 (talk) 10:32, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Serbs don't have historical Štokavian literature. Vuk Karadžić was creator of Serbian standard in the 19th century, but at the end of the 18th century he had said that Štokavian had been Croatian language! S-C is probably best to use for Serbian standard or categorization. Not for Croatian.

S-C propagandists constantly use one and the same fake statement: "Croatian and Serbian are completely mutually inteligible". 78.3.42.138 (talk) 14:02, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

A few simple sentences can show how "completely mutually inteligible" Croatian and Serbian standards are, without too much philosophy:

English: If you want to get informed read this piece of paper.

Croatian: Ako se želiš informirati čitaj ovaj komadić papira.

Serbian: Ako želiš (da se informišeš) čitaj ovo (parče) (hartije).

English: Add carrot, popper and mushrooms to turkey soup, mix with a spoon and cook 1 hour.

Croatian: Dodaj mrkvu, papar i gljive u juhu od purice, zamiješaj žlicom i kuhaj 1 sat.

Serbian: Dodaj (šargarepu), (biber) i (pečurke) u (čorbu) od (ćurke), (smešaj) (kašikom) i (kuvaj) 1 (čas).

English: Later we will eat apricots.

Croatian: Poslije ćemo jesti marelice.

Serbian: (Posle) ćemo (da jedemo) (kajsije).

In bold brackets - Serbian words or forms non-existant in Croatian standard. These differences come from Kajkavian and Čakavian included in Croatian standard and Serbo-Slavic and Torlakian included in Serbian standard. These are just 3 examples. 78.3.42.138 (talk) 14:02, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Taivo erased previous examples with comment "Cite a reliable source. Original research is not acceptable". We are not allowed to use reliable sources. You call it nationalist sources. On the other side you use political sources and call it reliable. 78.3.120.112 (talk) 14:46, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Do not waste space here with original research that is nothing more than your personal assertion and absolutely worthless for the purposes of this discussion. Use a reliable source. And since this is the English Wikipedia, your source should be in English as well. This is not a topic that is ignored in the English language literature on Slavic languages. --Taivo (talk) 19:10, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Do not erase other people's comments. This is not the article, this is talk page. You don't own this talk page. I 've checked your comments here and in the archives, you constantly state something in this discussion, but you have never cited any source. So you are the last person to teach the others what to do! You removed my comment twice yesterday. [9] [10] Why? Are you afraid of something? Yes, of course. It shows how shameless your lies are. Remove it to hide it, ha? 78.3.120.112 (talk) 07:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Off-topic posts are not subject to keeping, and we're all pretty much tired answering every IP that lands on this talk page from various internet forums, repeating the same rejected or off-topic arguments. So, let me (in vain, I know...) repeat from the header of this very page:

No such user (talk) 08:54, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

This is not off topic! Croats are not allowed to edit the article about their own culture in English wikipedia. Topic is Croatian language but Croatian linguists, Croatian academy, Croatian dictionaries and Croatian grammar books are under censorship here. This is precedence in all wikipedia world! The only possibility for Croats is to show the truth! A gang of political revisionists attacked this article and what do you expect? Do you really think that people in Croatia will leave it just like that? Now you reap what you sow. 78.3.120.112 (talk) 09:48, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Once again, read WP:OR. Your personal assertions aren't valid here, only reliable sources. Stop wasting our time and space with irrelevant information. You're clearly not a linguist, so you don't appear to be able to evaluate linguistic information. Otherwise you would have known that your "demonstration" was not linguistically valid in dealing with the issue of mutual intelligibility. Multiple references have been provided here before demonstrating conclusively that Serbian, Croatian, and Bosnian are mutually intelligible. There's no linguistic debate on the matter within reliable sources. --Taivo (talk) 10:42, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I heard recent proposal by some Serbian scholars that there is a medium-term plan to rename "Serbo-Croatian" into Great-Serbian.93.142.62.44 (talk) 20:28, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what Serbian scholars want to do. All that matters here is common English usage and Serbo-Croatian is firmly entrenched. --Taivo (talk) 21:04, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

So you admit that S-C doesn't exist? LOL this is comedy. A bunch of frustrated are pushing non-existing language based on past tense propaganda of past tense political option! This reminds me of another communist joke: Northern Korean communist government convinced their people that they are producing BMW cars. It seems that English wikipedia became a refugium for the followers of dead political options, poor bunch of them have no other place to spread their pamphlets. Here, in a group they feel strong. 78.0.134.118 (talk) 07:33, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

This is stupid. You might want to read the SC article so you know what you're talking about and don't make a fool of yourself. — kwami (talk) 12:24, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

And you think that you know what you're talking about? You don't have to make fool of yourself because others have already made a fool of you and other poorly informed wiki editors! SC pamphlet was spread out of former Yugoslavia by former Yugoslav institutions. It is fake term since that term - SC - was just synonym for Serbian language. People who were thaught about SC or were thaught to speak SC out of Yugoslavia were thaught to speak Serbian language! Not Croatian! SC by your interpretation leans on former Yu pamphlets - non realised communist dreams. You are all so desperately funny and lost in your own impossible and unreal interpretations - absolute comedy. 78.0.134.118 (talk) 12:40, 2 December 2010 (UTC)