Talk:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Argument against Christianity

I know that a lot of believers coming from the LDS movement believe themselves to be Christian, but outsiders looking don't agree with that concept. It would be similar to saying that Muslims and Christians are Jewish simply because both groups find the Torah as a sacred text. However, both groups have totally different additions that make them distinctively no longer Jewish, New Testament (Greek Testament) with the Christians and the Q'uran with the Muslims. Likewise, Mormonism has an additional sacred text in the Book of Mormon that distinctively branches out from Christianity with varying beliefs sufficient enough to no longer be labeled as Christian.

Take into further account that the group believes in multiple gods, Jesus and Satan were spirit brothers, and that Jesus is not God having become man, then it is clear that there is enough of a difference for it to be considered something different than the religion that it was inspired by. --GK 15:48, 21 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gk digital defener (talk • contribs)

Please see the definition of 'Christian': "a religious person who believes Jesus is the Christ." The number of texts (additional or otherwise) believed to be holy writ is irrelevant. All other points you mention are also irrelevant. The only criteria is whether the individual, or group in this case, believes Jesus to be the Christ. The Mormons do, and, ergo, are Christians. Besides, 'cult' is defined as: "followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices", something that could be applied to pretty much any group you can think of. Useight (talk) 20:14, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

This topic of discussion is not new. Please see archive 14 for most of my thoughts on the issue, and plenty of discussion and links to previous discussions. In a nutshell, I feel that using "restorationist Christian" solves all problems here. ...but what do you think? ~BFizz 21:32, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Although a few Christian evangelical groups do not classify Mormonism within Christianity, the majority of denominations, including Catholicism and the mainline Protestant churches, are not quite so rude, and classify Mormonism outside of "traditional" Christianity. Christianity is unlike the term Judaism, because Christians themselves make no claim to Judah, and don't care whether they are identified with the Biblical Hebrews. Mormons, on the other hand, make a claim to Jesus, and by Mormons' own terms, they are Christian. Nobody can dispute that Mormonism began squarely within the discourses of traditional American Christianity. You could say that by 1844, Mormonism evolved into something a step beyond traditional Christianity, but there's not much within Mormonism that couldn't be found somewhere within the extremely diverse and wildly-experimental early Christian era. COGDEN 22:05, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

To say that only a "few Christian evangelical groups do not classify Mormonism within Christianity, the majority of denominations, including Catholicism and the mainline Protestant churches, are not quite so rude, and classify Mormonism outside of "traditional" Christianity." is a vast misrepresentation. The World Council of Churches specifically recognizes the LDS faith as non-Christian. This represents a vast majority of all churches everywhere in the world including Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.3.199.238 (talk) 17:29, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Re: World Council of Churches stance - do you have a source for the WCC's stance on the issue? The one reference I could find from them seems to indicate that they consider the LDS to be a Christian Church (see [1], pg 37 where the LDS is listed as an example of "Other Christian Churches"). --FyzixFighter (talk) 14:03, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_Christ#cite_note-41 The World Council of Churches does not recognise the Mormon movements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 13:35, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

No major Christian denomination considers Mormons to be Christian (The Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Curches, the Anglican Communion, the Lutheran Churches, etc.), and the definition of Christianity is not so simple as to be merely a belief in Jesus Christ; Jews, Muslims, and most Atheists believe in Jesus Christ, the question is what exactly do they believe he was and what precisely was his relationship to the one and only sole god, identified by the Jews as Yaweh and the Muslims as Allah. All Christian denominations have essentially the same belief as expressed in the Nicene Creed, and though some fringe groups do not recognise the text itself as authoritative, they all agree with the basic principles; Mormons, Jews, Muslims and Atheists have a different belief.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Distinctive_Beliefs_of_Mormon.asp Factsareinconvenient (talk) 14:03, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

See also "Nonrecognition of respective rites" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Christianity - While this article is poorly written and seems in many places to imply a connection between Mormonism inside Christianity, the position of Christians in regard to Mormon baptism makes clear that they do not accept Mormonism as Christian. Review the citations (which is always good advice). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 14:01, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Mormonism should not be in the Christianity portal. That is not to say it is anything less, but it is simply not Christian. The definition of Christianity is rigid: One God. One Son who is also the final prophet. (Any future prophets are identified with the Beast and the Apocalypse if they are considered at all.) All Christian denominations accept the Apostles Creed and all major ones accept the Nicene. Those who don't fully accept the Nicene, can be identified as fringe; their identity as Christian is logically debatable, but Mormons are as clearly out of the fold as Muslims are. (I can call myself a black muslim and mean it, but being in reality an atheist, any self identification of myself as a black muslim does not make me one.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 12:56, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

You speak as if you know what you are talking about. Welcome to this poor article. New minds are always helpful. You seem to have a definition of being a Christian that is rather rigid. In fact, it is so rigid that not one of the original Apostles could be classified as Christian; I would say that is more than rigid. By chance do you have a definition for being a follower of Jesus or a Christian that can be supported by the Bible? If so, let's use it instead of anything created by man 325 years after Jesus.

You are correct, Latter-day Saints don't recognize any of the baptisms performed by other churches or denominations. To perform a baptism in the eyes of God, one needs his authority. LDS don't believe proper authority exists outside of their Church. LDS believe that Apostolic Succession is a creation of man used to justify the workings of a church created by the non-Christian, Constantine. In the Protestant world, the priesthood of the believer is also a creation of man used to justify their lack of authority.

Let's look at the Apostles' Creed and determine if LDS believe in the concepts it presents:

1. I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. LDS would agree with this with one caveat - Jesus did the creating by the direction of the Father.

2. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. LDS believe this completely.

3. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. LDS believe this completely.

4. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. LDS believe this completely.

5. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again. LDS believe this completely.

6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. LDS believe this completely.

7. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. LDS believe this completely.

8. I believe in the Holy Spirit, LDS believe this completely.

9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, LDS do NOT believe in the Catholic church, but can agree that there is only holy, true church found in the LDS Church.

10. the forgiveness of sins, LDS believe this completely.

11. the resurrection of the body, LDS believe this completely.

12. and life everlasting. LDS believe this completely.

No Muslim can admit these things. I do find it odd how many "critics" use this type of approach (to equate Islam with Mormonism - it demonstrates a remarkable ignorance of both Islam and the LDS Church! If anyone does admit these things, then I would say they are Christian.

No before you go and try to create an argument about the doctrine of the Trinity, please review the Catholic Encyclopedia which will tell you that the Trinity, as a doctrine, was created several hundred years after Jesus. It was not a part of Christ's ministry, Jesus did not demand that his followers understand, believe, or teach this doctrine. The question then becomees, who was the first one that required this specific belief and why? I will leave that to you to study and determine. Please return and tell me what you find.

The problem with facts is that they really are inconvenient. They shock the ignorant and enlighten the humble. -^StormRider 14:59, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Your argument is severely impaired as it seems to me most of those who seek to define mormonism as Christianity do so without an understanding of what Christianity is. Firstly, LDS' do not support many of the principles of the Apostles Creed as is stated above. (Analysis of LDS 'acceptance' of the Nicene Creed would be more useful and make LDS' divergence from Christianity more apparent.) Most fundamentally, Mormons do not believe in one and only one God and creator, and one and only one divine son, born of a virgin. (Satan as blood brother, God's previous corporeal existence, Christ the creator, the mormon opportunity to become a god and other gods (polytheism), and future revelation (the book of mormon) are all impossible contradictions to definition as 'christian'. (The caveat stated above alone is enough to render Mormonism no longer Christian.) Furthermore, the bible is unnecessary and of little use to the definition. Like other religions, the entirety of the religion is not contained explicitly in the primary document, however, the fundamental documents like the nicene creed are well established as being based upon the primary source (the Bible). These arguments are too complicated for this section and so established that to even question them reveals that mormonism is not 'christian'. Christians existed for nearly two thousand years under a broadly united definition and though they had many doctrinal disagreements, all of them agreed to a set of principles that Mormons do not believe. Christians defined themselves long before mormonism was invented. Mormons do not have the right or ability to change the definition of others to include themselves. As far as Christians are concerned, Mormons do not even worship the same god that they, jews and muslims do. Also, you do not understand the definition of 'catholic' (with a small c). The word refers to the ancient and universal church and does not refer to the Roman Catholic Church directly; it did not identify itself as such in the second century. (And it doesn't matter when the idea of a trinity was 'created'; the fact is it is a defining characteristic of being 'christian' and was recognised as such for a thousand years before mormonism. It's part of the definition, whether non-scholars are able to 'read' it in the bible or not.)~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 19:31, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

...and actually, Muslims do believe many of the principles: God the creator (only one), resurrection of the body, forgiveness of sins, life everlasting...~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 19:37, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

This argument is truly NULL and void. Please see the Webster's dictionary, an universally accepted dictionary for the English language. It states "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ". Mormons confess a belief in Christ.. End of Argument.Wearingaredhat (talk) 07:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Webster’s Dictionary is manifestly not a citable source for the provision of an accurate definition of Christianity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 10:09, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster perhaps has an infinitesimal amount of weight, but no dictionary would be referenced in even the most faintly academically inclined discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 10:17, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Webster's Dictionary — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 10:19, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

The sign in front of LDS churches is:" Church of Jesus Christ , Latter day Saints." Period. Joseph Smith is considered an apostle; like Peter, Paul, John, etc. Not an immortal Messiah--simply latter-day. Muslims do not consider Christ as the Messiah or prophet, they consider his as only a minor apostle. Only Mohammed is their prophet--but, he is dead in his grave, not like Jesus Christ, whom 250 Roman Solders witnessed as risen from his grave, or that his was grave empty. How can this be compared to LDS, or, any modern Christian church?70.176.118.196 (talk) 02:16, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

In the german Wikipedia we have the same discussion and we have come to the conclusion that the LDS cannot be called christian in general, since it differs in some principal beliefs to what is accepted as common in christianity: 1. it believes in polytheism, which is against one of christianity's main characteristics as a abrahamatic monotheistic religion. 2. it believes in other scriptures than the Bible, e.g. the Book of Mormon, 3. it believes in prophets that other christians do not believe in. 4. it doesn't accept the creed of Nicaia, the first official creed of the church (accepted on the first ecumenical council in 325) 5. it doesn't believe in the Christian doctrine of trinity that Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are persons in one being: Godhead. 6. Lucifer, the devil, is seen as the brother of Jesus Christ 7. it doesn't identify itself with any christian cross. All the established churches like the roman-catholic, the catholic-orthodox, and the lutheran church don't see the mormons to be part of christianity and thus don't accept baptized mormons to be christians. They instead call LDS a syncretistic new-religion. Established theology, history and sociology professors in the scientific world deny mormons the status as christians using a mix of the critical points listed above. The Webster's dictionary or any other general dictionaries of english, or other major languages, are no good sources for definitions of what a christian is, because they don't go into the details. There are other scholar-works, like the german "Theologische Realenzyklopädie" that give much more detailed definitions of what christianity is supposed to be by experts. It is hereby noteworthy to say that neither the Britannica, nor the Oxford dictionaries define mormons to be christians. Thus by defining mormons to be christians the english Wikipedia seems to be the only encyclopedia in the world doing so. Whether mormons see themselves as christians is completely irrelevant, since anybody can call himself christian without being it. We should thus not focus on what mormons think of themselves, but rather what the public, and especially what experts have to say. Otherwise we give no neutral point of view, an important criteria of good Wikipedia articles. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 08:48, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

If this is what the German Wikipedia thinks, then I fear for theology in Germany. Let's take your points: 1) We believe in God the Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. If that is polytheism, then granted. 2) Other scriptures: which Bible are we talking about one with the Apocrypha or one without? When did God say to take them out? Is Tradition considered as good as scripture? If so, then who gets to decide what is most important? 3) No where does it say a prophet is a prophet if all Christians agree. In fact, scripture shows that many prophets were not accepted by the people of God. Is the Pope the Pope because other Christians do not accept him. 4) Requiring being in the Nicaean Creed condemns Jesus and all of the early Christians. (This list is getting progressively more absurd and devoid of logic) 5) The doctrine of the Trinity is not found in scripture, was not believed by the early apostles and early Christians. It became a doctrine 325 years after Christ; get the period of time involved 3-0-0 YEARS to develop this doctrine. If required you would have thought Jesus would have made it the central piece of his teachings WHICH HE OBVIOUSLY DID NOT. 6) Lucifer is a creation of God; as one of his creations he is necessarily in relationship with all of his creation, even his Son. 7) The Christian cross was not a symbol for the early followers of Jesus. More importantly, LDS prefer to focus on Jesus resurrected, living, and active in their daily lives. Attempting to equate Christianity with a single symbol has no foundation in logic, theology, or truth. 8) Absolutely false; almost all scholars acknowledge the LDS Church as distinctly Christian. Only other churches deny the LDS Church's Christianity. This is strictly their prerogative, but not one of them owns or controls the definition of Christian. All English dictionaries use a definition of "Christian" as a follower of Jesus; all of your definitions are only useful if you are a Catholic, Orthodox, or Lutheran. In the US Lutherans have become so liberal their own Christianity could be questioned. You are correct, anyone can call themselves Christian. Jesus taught us that it is not what comes out of one's mouth, but those who listen to the Lord and follow him, keep his commandments that know Him. I will take Jesus Christ's definition of his followers over any group's chosen definition. Cheers.

I have to say that the German Wikipedia is in a very sad situation if this is the best you can come up with. -^StormRider 12:03, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

1: Smith said that it is possible for humans to become a God since everyone is given the grace of God. 2: Apocrypha were texts written during the early period of christianity (NT) or judaism (OT). That they were discussed and are still discussed is part of the search for a common canon. The Book of Mormon instead was created in the 19th century, and thus has nothing to do with these works. Never has a discussion in the catholic church or the protestant churches taken place to include the Book of Mormon as part of the canon 4: We are talking about christianity of today, not in Jesus times, which is different from christianity in the apostolic age. Christianity today agrees upon the creed of Nicaia as the essence of faith that need to be accepted by all christians. 5: Same like 4, we are talking about christianity in our times, not in Jesus' times. During Jesus times there didn't even exist any scriptures of the New Testament, so you could equally criticize why we believe in scriptures, that were written after Jesus died. 6: at least in this point you face strong dissense from christians in the world. 8: Show your sources that prove that theologians agree that the mormons are christians! My scholarly sources don't say it including the Theologische Realenzyklopädie, one of the most profound and well-known theological encyclopedias in the world written by international experts in their fields. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 13:35, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Let's also look at some english dictionaries and what they have got to say about mormons or the LDS:

• http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0534500#m_en_gb0534500
• http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mormons
• http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/392525/Mormon
• http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/Mormon
• http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/latter-day+saint?show=0&t=1301492718

As I said before, none of them use the word "christian", which contradicts the way the LDS is categorized in the english Wikipedia. It seems like defendants of mormon's christianity need to have very good answers, why the majority of dictionaries and encyclopedias in english don't define them to be christian, while other religious groups like the quakers are defined to be christians. It all seems to me like the authors of the LDS-article in the english Wikipedia didn't think a lot about categorizing them to be a group of christians. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 13:59, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Clarification

Though the topic of whether or not the LDS religion should be affiliated with orthodox, historical Christianity has been discussed, I would like to see clarification in this article. Though the LDS religion did, indeed, spring out of the mish-mash of restorationist movements in the 19th century, it is theologically and practically incorrect to identify the LDS religion with Christian faith. The two could not be more dissimilar, despite making claims on Christ. Also, since many non-denominational churches today, which are inside the pale of historic faith, trace themselves back to restorationist movements, lumping the LDS religion in with them is confusing.

Thus, I would simply suggest that a paragraph or even a couple of sentences be inserted into the beginning of the article, detailing that, while the LDS religion has Jesus as a central figure, he is not the figure of historical Christianity, thereby making the LDS religion something altogether different.

P.S. - I write as someone who has close family members intimately entwined with the LDS religion. This is not a personal attack, but simply an appeal to theological, historical and practical integrity. - Marie

So go ahead and find some reliable sources which would support sentences to that effect and figure out how to work it in to this article or Mormonism and Christianity. VernoWhitney (talk) 00:21, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

According to the first line of Restorationism (Christian primitivism), "In Christianity, restorationism (or Christian primitivism) is the belief that a purer form of Christianity has been restored using the early church as a model." Churches like the LDS Church and the Jehovah's Witnesses fit this description quite well. For this article's introductory paragraphs I see no further need to clarify "restorationist Christian denomination" beyond perhaps pointing the reader to Mormonism and Christianity, which makes the church's differences from orthodox Christianity quite clear.

I respectfully disagree with the statement that "it is theologically and practically incorrect to identify the LDS religion with Christian faith. The two could not be more dissimilar". While beliefs regarding the particulars vary, as they do with any Christian faith, the LDS Church believes in salvation through Christ, resurrection (and not reincarnation), heaven, angels, spiritual gifts (like prophecy), baptism, the Bible, etc. Theological differences are, in my opinion, not a strong point for disputing the "Christianity" of the LDS Church, since it shares so many fundamental ideas with Christianity. ...comments? ~BFizz 05:18, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Mormonism in no way, shape or form has anything to do with Early Christianity. It may be closer to early Jewish tribalism, but not Christianity. ~PJ

risti Well, Islam also believes in Heaven, angels, and has Christ as a central figure. Should Islam and Christianity be lumped together? I make no comment as to the veracity of LDS belief. I simply say that there is enough difference to distinguish it from historical Christian faith. For instance, a central tenant of Christian belief (as far as Protestantism goes, which tradition the LDS commonly identifies with, to a degree) is that it is the grace of Christ, and Christ alone, which provides salvation. The LDS begin here, yes, but add the requirement that one must keep all the laws, ordinances, etc. to be saved. ("The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79). "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel,'" (Articles of Faith, p. 79).) In short, historical Christianity is grace-based, the LDS system is works-based. Theologians on both "sides" will agree with this point. Thus, the two faiths are quite different. - Marie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.178.25.153 (talk) 16:51, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

In hopes of ending this discussion, this is NOT a forum regarding your views on LDS/Christianity, If you have reliable sources supporting the statements you feel should be added then add them, if not, then feel free to look for them, but unsourced statements that are solely your opinion or otherwise unverifiable arguments may not be placed in this (or any other) article. VernoWhitney (talk) 17:15, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Once again, this is not a comment on the veracity of the religion, but rather an attempt to distinguish between LDS and historic Christianity. The original edit I made - that the opening sentences of this article be changed to reflect the reality that this religion arose out of restorationist movements of the 19th century, rather than being another Christian church, which is corroborated throughout history texts - was summarily removed. I shall attempt the edit again, once I have created an exhaustive list of appropriate sources. - Marie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.178.25.153 (talk) 00:34, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Need there be any further clarification than "restorationist Christian"? The qualifier "restorationist" clearly demarcates the religion as rejecting "historic Christianity", since the basic concept behind restorationism is that over time the "true" church/doctrine of Christianity has been corrupted. ...comments? ~BFizz 19:34, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

How can so many miss such a simple principle? A Christian is anyone who regards Jesus Christ to be the Messiah. Since Mormons do in fact believe this wholly, they can only be classified as Christian. The Islam faith does acknowledge Jesus--but not as the Messiah--so that is how they find themselves outside of Christianity.--124.40.63.122 (talk) 18:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

"[A]nyone who regards Jesus Christ to be the Messiah" is absolutely NOT the definition of Christianity. That is as ridiculous as, ‘every person in America is an American.’ It is simplistic to the point of ridiculousness and but a part of the definition of Christianity. While Wikipedia may not rise to a great level of scholarship, such a definition is unworthy of even this humble resource. The detailed definition of Christianity is found in the Nicene Creed. A more accurate 'simplistic' defintion if you will would be something like, 'Anyone who believes that the one and only one almighty and sole god (called Yahweh by the Jews), who created the totality of existence, begot of the virgin Mary the one and only one son he ever had and ever will and sent him as the messiah to die, rise again and ascend to heaven as it was somehow necessary to do so to save mankind from sin, and who denies the power of any other gods and the existence of any later prophets is a Christian.’ ALL of those elements are essential. Denial on any ONE element makes a religion no longer Christian. (Belief in the trinity is also essential, but it’s a less ‘simplistic’ concept.) Mormons like to claim they have ‘revised’ ‘orthodox’ christianity, but that’s just nonsence marketing speak for following an entirely different religion based somewhat on Christianity; the Muslims do the same thing and they have more central beliefs in common with Christianity than Mormons do, but they aren’t classified as ‘Christian’ (the same one almighty creator god, no other gods, one judgment after death and one and the same heaven). ‘’And for the record, I am an Athiest and think it’s all a load of silly nonsense, but facts are facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Factsareinconvenient (talk • contribs) 11:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

That may be the definition of Nicene Christianity but it is not the only formulation of doctrine within a Christian framework ala the Arian controversy.Ltwin (talk) 17:01, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

The Nicene Creed? You mean the thing MEN developed hundreds of years AFTER Christ walked on Earth? Christ taught that anyone who followed him and lived by HIS teachings would be considered his disciples. Being a Christian has absolutely nothing to do with the irrelevant Nicene Creed but belief and faith in Christ. Anyone who knows anything about the Mormons knows that they meet this criteria. Christ defines what a Christian is NOT men no matter what kind if "creed" they come up with.--124.40.63.122 (talk) 18:52, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Before this conversation continues, note this is not a forum. Instead of opinions about if X is Y and if Y is Y, please discuss how the article can be improved. In this specific case, that might be by presenting reliable sources (such as scholarly papers) discussing this issue. tedder (talk) 19:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Editing control?

Why are Mormon missionaries given editing control over the Mormon page? I corrected many of the factual errors in the article and I received a warning. Mormonism is NOT a branch of Christianity. Every Church believes Mormonism to be a mix of paganism, old heresy, and new American folk cult religion. Mormonism does not believe in the same Jesus as Christians, just like Muslims. Mormons are attempting to blend into Christianity, but their teaching clearly is not Christian. Right now, the Mormon page is entirely from a pro-Mormon point of view which seeks to have Mormonism accepted as Christian. How can Wikipedia dare say to be unbiased when you host essentially a propaganda piece written by Mormons? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.11.77.254 (talk) 14:01, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

It really can't be helped, it's generally a problem with wikipedia, if the orgainization is large enough be it bussnes or in this case a "church" look a the artcial for black water for instance —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.193.186.17 (talk) 09:05, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

If you've been Reading, LDS/Mormon Is a Christian church. Maybe not a "branch" of anything, but not, certainly, any: "mix of paganism, old heresy. and American cult religion." Muslim is as unrelated as scientology to it. Besides, read the definition of: Cult--it is: "any group with rituals attached." That can be Any church, most organizations; even the Boy Scouts. It isn't a "black label" to be thrown around and darken anything. Besides, look at the early Catholic church--numerous Saints were easily assimilated by pagan tribes into their own polytheism--Saint of animals, Saint of childbirth, etc. Also, Christ's birthday was changed from about April until Dec. 25--Constantine's wife's birthday; also a convenient close-approach to the winter solstice, a pagan ritual. So, Catholicism, a very "Christian" church had pagan assimilations.70.176.118.196 (talk) 02:36, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Interesting

There has been a sudden spate of new editors adding SPAM links to this article today: anybody else thinking that there might be a sockpuppet / meatpuppet situation taking place ? Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 20:06, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm now thinking that this article needs some page protection as more and more new editors are adding this same information. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 20:11, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Rather than meatpuppet references, more specıfıc poınters ın your edıt undos wıll be helpful. We want to contrıbute to the page and are happy to follow guıdelınes ıf they are clearly referenced. No meatpuppets here, just people who want to contrıbute to the bıg collaboratıve sıte. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Opencontent (talk • contribs) 20:22, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Rather than just jumping in and 'contributing' I would suggest that your group learn some of WP's rules first. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 20:28, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Such as WP:BITE. alanyst ^/talk/ 20:50, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Who is "we"? In any case, productive contributors are welcome, but not those who are editing in bad faith. External links in the body of article are not considered good style, see Wikipedia:Citing sources#Embedded_links and WP:ELPOINTS. Only one official URL is necessary, per WP:EL and the above discussion on this exact issue. tedder (talk) 20:33, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Tedder said it well. WP is not like other websites; it is considered bad style to put external links in the body of the article. They can be used, however, in an "External Links" section, within references, and very occasionally, within templates that indicate an "official website" field or something of the sort. Wikilinks, not to be confused with Wikileaks ;), on the other hand, are encouraged (within limits of taste and style).

Labeling these edits as "spam" is inappropriate...the ones I saw were, in fact, links to the official lds website, but were misplaced. ...comments? ~BFizz 21:36, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is not a space for personal promotion or the promotion of products, services, web sites, fandoms, ideologies, or other memes." Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 21:51, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

One could assume good faith, that those editors felt those links to be informative rather than promotional. I don't see evidence for the bad-faith assumption you've started with. alanyst ^/talk/ 21:54, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

A better way to have handled might have been to welcome these users on their individual talk pages, which has now been take care of. However in doing this, I have discovered that Template:LDSWelcome could really use a refresh after all of this time; it looks dated & non-standard. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 22:58, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! This is more productive conversation. Yes, alanyst, I believe all the links we added were to official sites and were informative, not promotional. The WP:BITE from Duke53 was a harsh introduction to the WP community, but these more recent posts are encouraging. When there is so much of what appears to be deliberate mis-information on the Internet about the LDS church, increasing the number of links in the article to official church sites seems like an informative thing to do. "Promotional" in the context of this article would seem to be saying things like "You should all join the LDS church!," which of course we weren't doing. We'll explore ways to add an appropriate number of these newer official links to the appropriate section at the bottom. Thanks for the tips, and the welcome message on our user pages. opencontent (talk) 05:20, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

• You saw the meatpuppet investigation discussion, right ? It's okay to call the situation a 'meatpuppet situation' when, as it turns out, it was a 'meatpuppet situation' ! The tbm around here will always go out of their way to defend fellow lds editors ... the fact that your group all posted from byu automatically garnered you the support of some of them.

The fact that you were aware enough to employ meatpuppet tactics was a harsh way for you folks to start your WP participation. Also, just because you said "Edits are in full conformance with WP Community Editing Guidelines" doesn't make it so. Nice try though ...  :>)

You might also want to read the discussion here about limiting the number of links in this article. AFAIAC, your links were / are less 'informative' and more 'promotional' in nature. We're not going to allow this article to be turned into another lds tract. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 06:57, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Let's count the number of WP:AGF violations here. (1) "The tbm around here will always go out of their way to defend fellow LDS editors" ...using a slur (tbm == True Blue Mormons) and an empirically false stereotype ("will always...defend fellow LDS editors") to undermine efforts to welcome these new editors; (2) "The fact that your group all posted from BYU automatically garnered you the support of some of them" ...which is mind-reading; (3) "You were aware enough to employ meatpuppet tactics" ...which also is mind-reading and rejecting the Occam's Razor explanation of a newbie mistake; (4) "Nice try" ...treating Opencontent's explanation as a tactical maneuver rather than an honest statement; (5) "We're not going to allow this article to be turned into another LDS tract" ...which is a strawman given that Opencontent has explicitly stated they're not trying to be promotional or persuasive. For sheer bad-faith-assumption density that post was depressingly impressive. alanyst ^/talk/ 07:30, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Opencontent, this article used to have a large number of external links to various sites, including several LDS-owned websites like lds.org, mormon.org, familysearch.org, and so forth. A discussion a couple months ago among long-time editors here (including myself) came to the consensus that the volume of links felt too promotional. The list was whittled down to the one official lds.org link, from which the other LDS websites can be reached anyways. If you think other links need to be listed, then put forth your case for them on this talk page—but as the recent consensus is against that, I advise against unilaterally adding links without achieving consensus first. alanyst ^/talk/ 06:53, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Editors, Duke has a long history of focusing on being less than helpful. His reputation is well known on Wikipedia. It is best if everyone just ignores all his comments. He tires quickly and moves on. Should he revert in an edit without a valid reason, view it as edit warring and move on. Focus on improving the article. When there is a dispute evidenced by legitimate editors, search for a way to edit the article that engenders consensus. Good luck, -^StormRider 09:03, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposals for improving this article

This article has been stuck in a state of stable mediocrity for a long time, and I just wanted to propose and discuss a few long-term proposals for improving this article. Here is what I think needs to be done over the next months to raise the article to something that might be nominated as a "good" article:

• We need better source citations. Right now, the article has a hodge-podge of primary sources, not all of them used appropriately. I think we should winnow-down the number of sources we use for this article. Because this article has a very broad scope, its sources should ideally have a similarly broad scope. They should almost always be secondary source that give a broad overview of the LDS Church. For example, I'd like to see lots of cites to Bushman's Mormonism: A Very Short Introduction, the Ostlings' Mormon America, Arrington & Bitton's The Mormon Experience, Allen & Leonard's The Story of the Latter-day Saints, O'Dea's The Mormons, etc.
• The prose is dry and technical. We need to make the prose more compelling and interesting to read. In some sections, there is too much focus on numbers and lists. In place of numbers and lists, we can often make generalizations, or move the specific numbers and list materials to the footnotes.
• I think the "Distinctive Doctrines and Practices" section should be expanded and possibly broken into at least a couple of different sections. I think this section is the main topic of interest to the reader, and should provide a brief but comprehensive overview of orthodox LDS beliefs.
• The article spends too much space discussing some subjects of recent news interest such as Proposition 8, which are not very important when considered from a long historical perspective (see WP:Recentism).
• Overall, the article needs to be streamlined. I think some sections presently go into too much detail, like "Sources of authority" and "Comparison with other Latter Day Saint movement faiths".
• Some sections seem redundant, and can probably be integrated into the rest of the article, such as possibly "media and arts" and "Controversy and Criticism". I'm not saying that we should remove or limit the scope of criticism--only that we should address particular criticism only in the section where it is most germane, such as the historical, doctrinal, or finance sections.

COGDEN 21:38, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Possible Plans for Making This a Featured Article

COGDENs list above is right on in many respects. This is why I thought it would be useful to assign members of the class I'm teaching at BYU to improve the article. I've read more about making class assignments to edit in Wikipedia in the interim; however, I'm concerned that accusations of meatpuppetry will continue. I've challenged my students to turn this article - which definitely needs improvement as COGDEN noted - into a featured article, and we're reading and working to understand exactly what that means. However, given our experience with our first small attempts at improvement, I'm concerned that my students might make 10 weeks or so of concerted effort only to have each improvement unceremoniously rolled back.

So I ask those of you who are the apparent monitors of all edits to this article - are you willing to allow it to be improved? If the class runs afoul of something not listed in Contributing to Wikipedia, which we have read and understand (something like the policy about External Links, which is not listed there and was news to us), will there be rudeness and unexplained deletions? Or will there be some coaching and an assumption of good faith, as it turns out Wikipedia guidelines also encourage? Should we spend our time here or should we invest our energies elsewhere? Thanks in advance for your thoughts and responses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Opencontent (talk • contribs) 15:59, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Aha- that's why there were a bunch of sockpuppets/meatpuppets from BYU all at the same time? Editing is fine, but the additions were mostly like this and this- in other words, adding external links to the body of the article, which doesn't help. Given that you and your students are likely all Mormon and from BYU, make sure to read Wikipedia's policy on neutral point of view. This article is fairly complete- it doesn't have any {{citation needed}} tags. Making these types of change to any article, especially one aimed at GA/FA, is counterproductive. There are, however, articles in the LDS project that need help. I looked through the project and found a few: Jesse Knight, missing pageants at List of pageants of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and the redlinks at Wikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement/Articles needed. As instructor, I'd encourage you to check in at Wikipedia:School and university projects. I'm perfectly willing to help out, drop by my talk page if you have questions. (I've helped with a few other classes) tedder (talk) 16:47, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

The allegations of sockpuppets or meatpuppets should and can safely be ignored. They are meaningless and unhelpful. If you are going to focus a group of students on a single article such as this one, then there needs to be a complete understanding of editing with references. This topic is highly controversial and attracts editors from both ends of the spectrum. As such, anything overtly positive is reverted immediately and anything overtly negative is revertned in a similar manner. However, when edits come with reliable sources/references, it is much more difficult to revert.

At the point of adding referenced edits, it is important to first review the entire article; make sure you are not repeating information already present in the article or make sure it is the proper place for the edit.

A review of the entire article with a criticism of how and what could be improved first would be helpful as a class.

Will you meet with opposition? Of course, but when you do so take it to the talk page and explain the logic for the edit. Another way to go about this if there will be dramatic changes to the article, then make a sub-page you edit at will. Ask for assitance from other editors to review as you progress. If it gains agreement then it can then be inserted in this article. Seek assistance from those who are critics of Mormonism. They will be able to broaden your perspective of what is acceptable and what is not. LDS, as all people, can be blind to their own POV at times. It is jarring at first to realize how strong a POV is held, but in time each editor gets the hang of how to edit the article.

Thank you for making an effort to improve Wikipedia. Thank you for making it a class project. Would that this happened more often. Make sure each of the students registers also. Registered users are more respected than those who do not. Cheers and good luck, -^StormRider 06:41, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

In addition, consider making proposals here (on the discussion page) for obvious improvements to the Article. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 06:50, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Opencontent, there are loads upon loads of Wikipedia policy pages; it would be ideal if you and your class read them all, but of course that is infeasible and unfair to ask so much of you. If your interest is in elevating this article, or any other, to featured status, I highly recommend that you understand the good article criteria and featured article criteria. I, and surely others, am more than willing to help with the process of submitting the article for review for featured status once significant improvements have been made. I will make further comments on your talk page. As tedder has suggested, you should carefully consider whether editing this article will provide the experience you desire for your students, rather than having them improve more obscure articles that are in need of references. ...comments? ~BFizz 03:18, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Almost forgot, you should also check out the Wikipedia style guide for LDS-related articles, though it may or may not be out of date. ...comments? ~BFizz 03:22, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I think the three most important things I'd like to suggest for the BYU students are: (1) make conservative (and I'm not talking political) changes, and if there are any problems, bring them up on the talk page, (2) work to replace existing primary source references where possible with citations to broad overview books about Mormonism that are considered by both Mormons and non-Mormons to be the preeminent secondary sources on Mormonism broadly, and (3) write as if you weren't Mormon, and were writing about Mormonism the way an entomologist might write about an interesting newly-discovered insect. If you do these three things, you can't go too far astray. COGDEN 00:23, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

church attendance counts

This edit was in good faith, though I think the sources were lacking. I seem to recall that Ostling's Mormon America discussed the inflated nature of LDS records. Does anyone have that (or another source) handy? tedder (talk) 20:48, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it was in good faith; I'm also not convinced that The Cumorah Project's analysis of attendance and growth qualifies as a reliable source. I'd also like to see other source(s) to back this up. —C.Fred (talk) 20:53, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it isn't a reliable source, though it might sneak through if termed "The Cumorah Project says..". Still, there should be more reliable sources out there. I just don't have MA or other books anymore. tedder (talk) 20:59, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

TrulySaid either doesn't understand or doesn't care for WP:3RR and seems to be ignoring requests for discourse or better references for their additions. I agree that they're in good faith - just not having followed in spirit of the wiki. Is it time to WP:RPP until we can get this sorted? Doriftu Speak Up. 22:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Reporting him and having him blocked short-term for 3RR/EW is probably the best we can hope for. Page protection might be appropriate if the incident involved a lot of editors (and/or sockpuppets of a single editor), but that doesn't seem to be the case here, at least not now. Richwales (talk · contribs) 22:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

This topic is a non-starter for me. It comes around periodically when some editors is incensed that the LDS Church inflates their membership numbers; they don't know how, but they are certain the evil empire is jiggering the numbers in order to appear more important. Of course no international church of any size knows the exact number of their faithful attend church weekly. For example, Catholics; does anyone really believe their membership numbers are a reflection of truly participating members? When next in Europe, pass by during mass and count. How about Anglicans? You take the church and none of them has a mechanism capable of counting only active, participating members. Even more important, there is not a legitimate system anywhere in the world that can count them. Making mountains out of mole hills. Move on. -^StormRider 06:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Partially agree/disagree. As I said earlier (see the next section below), I would have no problem citing estimates regarding attendance, activity, self-identification, etc., as long as the exact nature of the cited figure(s) is clearly stated and the material is backed up by a citation to a highly reliable source or sources. I would not, however, approve of language stating or implying that the LDS Church is engaging in deception regarding its number of adherents; not only would such a statement clearly be POV, but I can't imagine any way that such a statement could possibly be substantiated by a reliable source. Richwales (talk · contribs) 17:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Membership numbers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are very accurate. They have no reason to inflate the report given at each world broadcast, (April conference and October conference). Tune in April 2, 2011 (Saturday, 10am Utah time). My Father was a ward clerk and membership records are considered sacred; membership changes are linked to the database in Salt Lake City. Call them up if you have a question. Didn't you see the movie about LDS missionary, John Groberg The Other Side of Heaven? Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 04:40, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe Charles Edwin is a troll, and maybe I am feeding said troll in my naivete, so please forgive me if that is the case. "They have no reason to inflate the report given at each world broadcast" - that is the biggest BS statement I have read in a long time. There are a hundred reasons why the church would want to inflate its numbers. Not saying they do - just that the incentive is definitely there.--Descartes1979 (talk) 04:46, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Not a troll. I had to verify definitions: "a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages", from Troll (Internet). That said, I can see why you would think my statement is "bull-shit", excuse the French, apologies to the French. Saying there are a hundred reasons to exaggerate is also a stretch — there are probably seven. Members of the church may want to see higher numbers, but the leadership of the church, the ones that announce the membership, are more interested in honesty and accuracy. You can find the membership numbers broken down by country in the church's annual paperback almanac. Hope this helps. btw, I consider this an extraneous cul-de-sac, so I guess those participating are 'trolls'. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 09:31, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry that is BS too - there is heavy incentive for church leadership to inflate numbers. If it was about honesty and accuracy, then why don't they report inactivity rates, or the number of people that resign from the church, or talk about the Pew surveys that show self declared affiliation and growth rates far below the numbers that the LDS church reports? Or open their counts for public scrutiny? Obviously this is my POV (but it is a pretty well informed one I like to think after watching countless hours of general conference reports), but it is pretty clear that they trumpet these numbers to propagandize the church membership into believing that "all is well". They do the EXACT same thing in Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses and a bunch of other New Religious Movements. Again - I am not disputing the accuracy of the numbers, but I think you are just flat wrong if you don't think there is an incentive for church leadership to do so.--Descartes1979 (talk) 16:35, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

My edit REVISED

Why is the http://www.cumorah.com/ NOT a reliable source? It has research, analysis, and resources concerning the membership claims listed. Some of the researchers are LDS, too. I also referenced lds.org as a source right at first concerning your membership claim. I'm new to this venue and it is not my intention to war. I would like to see some sort of edit to correct the misrepresentation of the numbers in the article. The LDS Church is known to inflate the numbers by counting inactive members and others who no longer participate. The LDS Church requires members to officially resign in writing before they ever take people off their membership rolls. Many people don't bother to officially resign yet they are still counted. I think it is misleading and inaccurate to count people as members who no longer believe in the church. Here's another source to support my edit. http://mormoninfo.org/news-info/news/lds-church-really-fastest-growing-church It is coming to my attention that this article is being monitored and edited by BYU students. My question is: Are you being neutral by rejecting valid sources that challenge your membership numbers? Is it you that gets to determine what is a valid source or not a valid source? Are you only going to accept LDS sources? If you are...then you aren't being neutral. Please comment as to a reasonable solution. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|(TrulySaid (talk) 23:35, 31 January 2011 (UTC)) comment added by TrulySaid (talk • contribs) 22:19, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

From looking at the "about" page for cumorah.com and mormoninfo.org, it seems to me that these websites generally fall under the category of Self-published sources. In other words, they are not scholarly sources. See also the rule of thumb regarding usage by other sources. The exception in this case is lds.org; the Wikipedia guideline for self-published sources states that "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field..." and goes on to list some constraints. I do believe, however, that there are scholarly sources that challenge LDS membership numbers; we just need to find them. ...comments? ~BFizz 01:49, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Roughly how the LDS Church counts its membership is described in this press release, and there is a theological reason for why the LDS Church counts its membership the way it does. Nevertheless, the most appropriate number for membership--if we had it--would probably be the number of self-identified Latter-day Saints worldwide. We don't know that number. It's certainly less than the LDS Church number, but it's also larger than the number of people who are active attendees. Many inactive Mormons still consider themselves to be LDS. So I think the bottom line is, nobody knows how many Latter-day Saints there are, and the only source we have regarding the methodology of counting members is the LDS Church itself, which in this case is credible (the church admits something for which it has been criticized, which makes the admission credible), but I'd rather cite to a reliable secondary source. COGDEN 03:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I would be OK with including a smaller figure if a more reliable source can be found and if the source credibly documents the nature of the figure (e.g., estimated number of active attendees). Those may be big if's, though. Richwales (talk · contribs) 03:30, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Young's polygamy

I recently saw this sentence removed, then restored:

“ According to LDS Church records, Young was "sealed" to as many as 56 women, far more than the estimated 32 brides sealed to Joseph Smith during his rule. ”

I had mixed feelings about both actions. But if we keep it, we need to fix a few issues:

1. We don't describe, at all, what the scare-quoted "sealed" is supposed to mean.
2. "according to LDS Church records...as many as" - why are we citing church records, which should provide a solid number, and then invoking the speculative phrase "as many as"? Also, if we cite church records, we should cite church records. The provided ref is [See Tullidge, Edward, History of Salt Lake City, 132-35 (Original from the University of Michigan, 1886).]
3. "far more" - what's the point of this editorialization?
4. "during his rule" - ambiguous, but dripping with POV regardless of whether it is referring to Smith or to Young

I do feel it important to mention Young's polygamy here, but this sentence fails on so many levels. If nobody else does, I'll try my hand a little later at rewriting this atrocity. ...comments? ~BFizz 19:11, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Roughly, what is needed seems to be this:

• the military was coming because LDS were practicing polygamy
• Young was married to up to at least N women (note "married", not "sealed", no explanation really necessary). This is worth mentioning because of the first point (why the military was coming).

Right? In that case, it would be nice to cite something removed from the primary source (LDS records). tedder (talk) 19:28, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

It would be more scholarly to use the conservative phrase "at least N" (minimum), rather than the speculative "up to N" (maximum). The numbers for each phrase would be different, of course. ...comments? ~BFizz 22:07, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

You're right. Or "there were at least N documented", but that's bordering POV, because it basically states "but there were inevitably more". I'm not a great wordsmith; I'm more concerned that the main points are hit. tedder (talk) 22:45, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Mormon Helping Hands

I was throwing around the idea of adding a section on Mormon Helping Hands. I was thinking of using a few various newspaper articles that mention their activities such as this and this. But before my efforts get rolled back, I'd like to know what everyone thinks about it. Cheers, w7jkt ^talk 14:51, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree. The charitable work organized by the church or its members should probably have a section (in general, not just Helping Hands). Other articles like Catholic Church should probably have such a section as well. ...comments? ~BFizz 03:47, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, well I've started work on a section here but it's somewhat pathetic as it stands. I just don't have a ton of time to put toward it. I'll keep working on it, but there is also LDS Philanthropies which we could draw from, but it is quite shabby. As far as other churches, I can't really speak for them, but I feel the same as you. Regards, Firinne ^talk 17:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)