Talk:Bra size

What needs to be added

Here is what I take issue with:

"British bras currently range from A to K cup size, while most Americans can find bras with cup sizes ranging from A to G, although some brands go as high as L." I would like to change it to (without somebody jumping at my throat):

British bras currently range from A to K cup size (with Bravissimo recently bringing out the L-cup). Most Americans can find bras with cup sizes ranging from A to G, although some brands (Elila, Goddess) go as high as N, which is roughly equal to a British JJ.

Sources: Bravissimo.com, Goddess sizing chart at goddessbra.com, Elila sizing chart at elilausa.com, various online stores where you can buy Goddess and Elila bras in N-Cup sizes. Iknowbrasizes (talk) 23:11, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

===Older European systems===The EN 13402 standard was introduced in 2006, and a range of other cup-size definitions are still in use in Europe, using either centimeters or inches to indicate the under bust girth. One common cup size system used by European manufacturers, in order of increasing size, is: AAA-AA-A-B-C-D-DD-E-F-FF-G-GG-H-J, although the use of double letters is not consistent between manufacturers (e.g. some may use EE rather than F, DDD rather than E, etc.). The majority of bra bands run true to size (as in, a size 36 band measures, when stretched, 36 inches).

This is wrong. Only the British use the inch-based AAA-AA-A-B-C-D-DD-E-F-FF-G-GG-H-J.. system. All other European countries use the metric-based 2-cm-system. Cupsizes run A-B-C-D-E-F-G-H-(i)-J-K-L-M-N-O-P. Because of the difference between the two systems 4 cups in the UK-System equal5 cups in the EU-sytem. Just how much the two systems differs can be seen on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cupumrechnung.svg (I already created an English version of that, but it got deleted, oh thanks so much.)

The only thing worth keeping of this section is IMO the reference to EN 13402.

There needs to be a section about conversion of the British system to the EU system(s). I already wrote it, check it up in the erlier versions. (Which some helpful watchdogs undid. Hrmpf.) Iknowbrasizes (talk) 22:54, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

The article doesn't take into consideration that there are two European sizing systems: the British and the Continental European. In the British system cups increase by one inch, 2.54 cms. In the Continental European system cups increase by 2 cms. This leads to considerable size differences in sizing in the larger cup sizes. I added this information to the main article Brasserie along with sizing charts - but some twit decided to delete it!!! 79.216.119.151 (talk) 14:13, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

The metric conversion in the cup size table is wrong: for example, less than 1 inch is 10-12 millimetres or 1-2 centimetres, not 10-12 centimetres (which is 4-5 inches). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.104.51.76 (talk) 21:52, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest creating a comparison of all the different breast sizes using real photos, and preferably topless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.103.45.129 (talk) 01:20, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

For the sake of illustration, and in the name of knowledge, could someone add pictures of sizes DD+? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.95.116.97 (talk) 15:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

This page only shows the measurement in imperial system. Can anyone please put in the measurement in metric system, so that the metric fans understand better? Thanks! ;-)--Edmundkh 17:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that the metric measurements should be put instead (or with) of the imperial, metric is wider in use than imperial.

Are you sure you're supposed to take the difference between bust and band size, not bust and frame size?

The beginning instructions and first table say it is in between bust and band sizes, but the table at the bottom of the page in metrics says it's the difference between bust and frame size.

I believe that it's the second, but I'm not sure. Please help.

67.170.110.122 01:22, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

In the EN 13402 Cup A is 12-14 cm difference. This is 4.7-5.5 inches. In the US table 5 inches is Cup DD. Both methods appear to be using the difference between bust and underbust girth. Can someone clearly explain the differences in measuring? 88.70.240.105 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 23:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The method used to measure for bras in this article is called unreliable in the article Brassiere under the section measurement systems. It may be better to talk about and show examples of how a proper fitting bra looks, rather than give a formula that does not work for every given case. I'd like the table include more cup sizes (to a K or L) so people can have more of a concept of the range of sizes. It might also be good to show multiple cup sizing systems next to each other in the table so people can see that one brand's DDDDD may equal another's GG or H. Nuku7nuku 23:32, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

UK Dress size correlations given were waaaaaaaaay off. See here: http://www.asos.com/infopages/SizeGuide/pgesizechart.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.145.252.66 (talk) 15:11, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Because the imperial sizes increase by 1 inch, i.e. 2.54 cm, but the metric sizes increase by 2 cm exactly, the conversion factors between imperial and metric sizes vary as breast size changes. They start out with a huge difference with women with small breasts, and end up close to each other with ladies with huge honkers. Here's a specific table, based on the table in the article:

Cup size (UK and Australia)	Cup size (rest of Europe, Canada and US)	Difference between bust size and band size (inches)	Difference (cm)	Difference factor
AA	AA	Less than one inch	10–12 cm	N/A
A	A	1 inch	12–14 cm	4.72 - 5.51
B	B	2 inches	14–16 cm	2.76 - 3.15
C	C	3 inches	16–18 cm	2.10 - 2.36
D	D	4 inches	18–20 cm	1.77 - 1.97
DD	DD or E	5 inches	20–22 cm	1.57 - 1.73
E	DDD or F	6 inches	22–24 cm	1.44 - 1.57
F	G	7 inches	24–26 cm	1.35 - 1.46
FF	H	8 inches	26–28 cm	1.28 - 1.38
G	I	9 inches	28–30 cm	1.22 - 1.31
GG	J	10 inches	30–32 cm	1.18 - 1.26
H	K	11 inches	32–34 cm	1.15 - 1.22
HH	L	12 inches	34–36 cm	1.12 - 1.18
J	M	13 inches	36–38 cm	1.09 - 1.15
JJ	N	14 inches	38–40 cm	1.07 - 1.12
K	NN	15 inches	40–50 cm	1.05 - 1.31

The "N/A" means that the result is ambiguous, because "less than 1 inch" is not mathematically exact. So if you want to be scientifically accurate, either get large breasts or start dating someone who has. JIP | Talk 19:38, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

What I completely fail to understand from this article is the US band sizes. My significant other has been trying to figure it out herself but failed and asked me; I (naturally) turned to wikipedia and I must admit I'm completely lost. Are the US sizes not underbust measurements? The conversion table does say "in". For example, 36 inches is close to 91.5 centimeters. So how is it that said 36 inches is supposed to correspond to an underbust measurement of 78-82 centimeters? TerminusEst (talk) 18:34, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

A fitting method using cup size and bust size

My fiancée is currently designing a dress. Here are some of the things she learned, at least for American bra sizing:

1) American bra sizes have two measurements:

1a) The "band size" (such as 30, 32, 34, 36, 38, et cetera)

1b) The "cup size" (such as AA, A, B, C, D, E, et cetera)

2) In theory, the "band size" is as described in the article: the chest circumference, as measured beneath the breasts, plus an offset of 3" to 6". In practice, many bras only have secure sizes around the chest at the bustline and/or above the breasts, not beneath the breasts. This means that the "band size" is actually a number that should be fudged to make the rest of the fit come out right.

3) The "cup size" actually measures the radius of the underside of the breast. This dimension determines the shape of the underwire (or other material that lies on the front of the bra immediately beneath the breast). The "cup size" is important -- if it is too small (for the woman), the ends of the underwire will poke the sides of the breasts. Note that the "cup size" does not directly measure the breast volume.

4) The sum of the "band size" and the "cup size" is a useful estimate. As shown at BiggerBras.com, adding one inch per letter of the "cup size" to the "band size" gives an estimate of the "bust size". The "bust size" is the circumference of the chest, as measured at the most prominent part of the bosom. For example, 36C corresponds to 36" + 3" = 39"; 34E corresponds to 34" + 5" = 39". Because these two sizes share the same estimated "bust size" (39"), they are "sister sizes", as described in the article.

5) Here is how she was able to find a bra that fit well:

5a) She measured her "bust size".

5b) She considered bras where the sum of the "band size" and the "cup size" was within 1" of her "bust size".

5c) She found a bra with the correct "cup size" -- it followed the undercurve of her breast, but did not dig in. This method of measuring gave a larger "cup size" than she had expected.

5d) She subtracted the "cup size" from her "bust size", to give the "band size".

5e) She chose a bra with somewhat less cup material (on the fullness of her breast) than other bras with the same nominal size. This made up for the fact that her "cup size" was larger than she had expected.

5f) She tried on bras with similar sizes (to make sure she had the optimum size), but bought the bra she chose in step 5e.

Sources:

For statements 1 and 4: BiggerBras.com's Bra Size Grid

For statements 2, 3, and 5: Observation of bra construction at Seattle-area bra retailers, such as Macy's, Target, and DecentExposures.com. (It would be nice to upgrade this citation to a published source, so as to adhere to Wikipedia's policy prohibiting original research.)

-- Jasper 17:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Correlation between cup size and breast size

Dressmakers have found two correlations between cup size and breast size.

The first correlation is in the widths of material needed to cover the bust. This correlation has already been discussed: The "frame size" (of the woman, not the bra) plus an offset plus the "cup size" (of the bra) tends to be close to the "bust size" (of the woman).

The seoond correlation is in the heights of material needed to cover the breasts. The "yoke line" is a horizontal line along the body, "just above where the major swell of the bosom begins." The "yoke line" is typically about 2" - 3" below the collarbone. The "waist line" is the not-necessarily horizontal line of the person's waistband. Dressmakers sometimes measure three distances: along the front centerline of the body from the "yoke line" to the "waist line", over the most prominent part of the breast, from the "yoke line" to the "waist line", and along the side of the breast (beneath where the collarbone joins the shoulder) from the "yoke line" to the "waist line". Virginia DeMarce states that the first and third measurements tend to be about equal, and the second measurement to be greater by "about one inch per each cup size beyond an A. That is, for a woman who wears a C cup, the distance from yoke line to waist over the bosom is going to be about two inches longer than that from yoke line to waist at center front."

Sources:

For the first correlation: BiggerBras.com's Bra Size Grid

For both correlations: Fitting of Clothes FAQ. Virginia DeMarce, Pam Poggiani, Jessica Schlenker, and others. Originally posted on the Dixon's Vixen conference of Baen's Bar; archived at http://homepage.mac.com/msb/163x/faqs/fitting.html Copyright 2002. The description of the second correlation is based on Virginia DeMarce's e-mail dated March 16, 2002 06:46 PM.

-- Jasper 17:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Unnecessary Obfuscation

Is it really necessary to use the word "majuscules" up top, instead of the more understandable "capital letters"? Readers shouldn't have to click through the definitions of uncommon words to understand the basics.

A Cup = 1 Inch Difference?

Right now the chart claims an A cup is a two inch difference, but everywhere I remember reading about this subject is that it's supposed to be one inch. Older revisions of this page have charts that start from there, is this a typo? -- 15:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Japanese tiny bra sizes

Has someone got an accurate comparison of Japanese/rest of the world bra sizes?

I know that a Japanese C cup, is equivalent to a normal A or B etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sennen goroshi (talk • contribs) 15:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

What's so special about "D"

Can someone explain why "D" is doubled-up and trippled-up? As in A, B, C, D, DD, DDD, E etc. Why D? 82.152.159.30 23:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

a b c d dd ddd dddd is the same as a b c d e f g. why do they, instead of going on to the next letter after d, start adding more d's? i don't know, but if you ever hear somebody say they have a size f cup, it's the same as ddd.

Celebrity bust sizes? Seriously?

Seriously. What? Does anyone have sources for these sizes, even? Not to mention this is pretty WP:LISTCRUFT and WP:TRIVIA... I think this section should be removed as soon as possible. It's not very notable. CherryFlavoredAntacid (talk) 16:42, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, this section isn't alphabetized correctly. Traditionally, you alphabetize based on the last name, not the first. CherryFlavoredAntacid (talk) 16:48, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Alright. I was reading around, and I do believe the entire section violates WP:BLP. "Be very firm about the use of high quality references. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles" So there you have it. The information is still in the history page, but I highly recommend against bringing it back. CherryFlavoredAntacid (talk) 17:06, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Height

Is there any difference in cup sizes when it comes to height? Like, do a woman who is 4'6 with 36-inch breasts and a woman 6'8 with 36 inch breasts have the same cup size if there measurements are the same? BioYu-Gi! (talk) 20:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't see how a woman's bra size could be influenced by her height. The taller woman might need to extend the shoulder straps to their maximum length, and the shorter woman might need to tighten them, but there would be no effect on the cup size. Zoggi the mouse (talk) 18:31, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Pics

Wouldn't it be great to include some pictures for a visual comparison of sizes and shapes. Robert Vanderbilt (talk) 03:57, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it would allow people to get a real life comparison. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.226.56.215 (talk) 19:51, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Pictorial definitions would border on "wikipornia". I was concerned about the wisdom of viewing this page at work (I swear, at this time it was a matter of intellectual curiosity), and would have navigated away quickly if I'd found a heavily illustrated page. Unless the pictures showed a bra on a bright blue mannequin or the like, this is probably unwise. — btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:41, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I have the question the value of including a picture of nude breasts. While the caption mentions information pertaining to "sagging breasts" and, I suppose, brassiere measurement, I do not feel the picture neccessary in this case. — btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:41, 19 May 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by WPxOG (talk • contribs) 08:48, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

You cannot illustrate how sagging breasts are hard to measure for a bra by showing breasts with a bra on. Goes to illustrate one of the challenges women have. I believe it should be retained. — btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:41, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

style of intro

it just... sounds wrong. too informal. change? 80.5.57.84 (talk) 21:32, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

-Agreed. Lines such as, 'The single most confusing thing...', 'Most people think...' and, 'Try this experiment - ...' don't sound very encyclopedic at all. Clean up required? Dgen (talk) 22:38, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

From a Woman's Perspective

The common method espoused to women here in the States has been mentioned: measure under your breasts for the band, then measure the fullest part of the bust, and finally subtract the band size from the fullest part measurement. That determines the cup size. It's a generally decent method to "ballpark" the size of bra a woman needs, but one must keep in mind that it's not foolproof. Theoretically, if you have the right cup size, your bra should rest flat against the chest wall between the breasts, underwires included.

As a woman who's dealt with this, I have to say that's just not true, particlarly with women in above-average sizes. Someone mentioned that if the cups are too small, they'll poke the wearer. This is true in some cases, but another approach more accurately describes the real problem: there's not enough fabric in most cups whose circumference would otherwise comfortably fit a larger woman. Therefore, women have to go up in cup size to get the extra fabric to sufficiently cover the breast/get the wires to rest against the chest wall (or they resort to a larger band size).

The problem with going to the next cup size is that the manufacturers assume the wires' circumference and length must be greater in order to accommodate the breasts. But most wearers would find them unbearable, because the wires' circumference and length are so great, they literally dig into the wearer's armpit, causing painful sores, or go up so high between the breasts that the bra would probably poke up and out anyway, thus showing under normal clothing. Tailors deal with this problem-are you ready?-by using a slightly smaller cup size, and bending the underwires so they don't poke forward! They do not get a larger cup size to make the wires rest against the chest; the bra would never fit the rest of the woman.

If women adhere to this measurement method religiously, they may find themselves in this situation. This is a manufacturing issue, not a woman-not-finding-the-right-size-bra issue. Thankfully, more companies are starting to design better bras, so women have to deal with this less than ever. In my experience, the best way a woman can determine what fits is to actually go and try a bunch on, and pick only the most comfortable, supportive, and attractive. If you find they're all the same band and cup size, good for you. Otherwise, sizing be darned! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.246.185.196 (talk) 23:10, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Bravissimo

I dispute the neutrality of Bravissimo's claim. 207.67.101.35 (talk) 10:16, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Bravissimo's estimation of the average bra size being 34DD or 34E is backed up by the fact that the UK's best selling bra size is 36C, and the vast majority of women need to be wearing at least one band size smaller, which means that the true average size is almost certainly no larger than 34 and cannot be smaller than D cup. 34DD is a good estimate, as this accounts for the number of women who should be wearing a larger cup size. Zoggi the mouse (talk) 18:27, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was moved to Brassiere measurement to comply with WP:SINGULAR. -- Aervanath (talk) 16:56, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

---

• Brassiere measurements → Bra size — The term Bra size is a more commonly used description. Ewawer (talk) 09:29, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Suggested alternative. Brassiere measurement, singular instead of plural. Bra is also more commonly used than brassiere, but it is just an abbreviation. By the way, there are 35,728 hits/month for brassiere measurements and only 3,195 for bra size, which likely simply just proves that most people get to articles by clicking on links instead of typing. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 12:22, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

american vs european

remember, the majority of the page is in european measurements, so anything that doesn't seem right, such as 2 inches equaling 14-16 centimeters on the chart, is not incorrect, but just european. another example is both of the pictograms are for european sizing only. an american b cup and a european b cup are not the same.

You can not compare the most sold bra of the UK in 2003 to the most sold bra of the US in 2009. One, it's illogical, two different years, two different countries, what's the point, it's completely inaccurate to use as a comparison . Two, the people of the UK are not cows, of course they have smaller breast. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.50.185.91 (talk) 15:36, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Info on the Bro and Menzire

Where is the info on the Bro? Or is there a seperate article for men's undergarments? Seems like sexism to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.121.36.115 (talk) 05:18, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Is this correct?

I have always wondered what exactly do women's bra sizes mean. From this article, I have formulated a rough rule of thumb: The number means the circumference of a woman's body directly under the breasts. The letter then means how much larger than this her actual breasts are. Is this correct? JIP | Talk 18:52, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Proper breast size article - psych/social influence, variation by race etc

I don't understand why there isn't a full article just on breast size, it's social importance/influence, psychological impact, it's variation by country/race, etc given the huge sums of money spent on implants and push up bras by women not to mention the attention and time spent by men looking at them. Half of the television in the US is centred around breasts. Instead, ridiculously, the pages 'breast size' etc redirect to this 'fashion' article. There should be something comparable to the penis size article.

To start, here's a couple of references so that sections can be added on breast size by country: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article17807.ece

The poll for bra maker Triumph

Percentage of women wearing cup size: D C B A

UK 57 18 19 6
Denmark 50 19 24 7
Netherlands 36 27 29 8
Belgium 28 28 35 9
France 26 29 38 7
Sweden 24 30 33 14
Greece 23 28 40 9
Switzerland 19 24 43 14
Austria 11 27 51 10

Italy 10 21 68 1

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1181550/Ee-BRA-gum-Yorkshire-lasses-biggest-breasts-Britain.html

I'm sure a lot of better sources and studies can be obtained, particularly on the social influence and psychological impact in advertising, marketing etc.

Added this chart to Brassiere. -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 20:53, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Illustration

Is it just me or is this a topic which could use some pictures for illustration? One or two images of different sizes of bras would help with understanding. IsambardBrunel (talk) 17:51, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I could only find one image that specifies the bra size. Better than nothing. IsambardBrunel (talk) 13:36, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I wonder how many actual women have edited this article. ww 17:28, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Conflict in existing article

Under this heading: Majority wear wrong size bra. One line says "...most commonly resulting in too large a cup size (by a mean of three sizes) and too small a band size (by a mean of four sizes)" and the next line says "...most common mistake being to select a bra with too large a back band and too small a cup..." —Preceding unsigned comment added byJenniferholland (talk • contribs) 19:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC) \

It's not necessarily a conflict. The researchers and the hospital practitioners cited in the primary sources found opposite conclusions, true. But both findings go to support the overall statement: women aren't able to select correctly fitting bras and as a result wear the wrong bra size. -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Conversion guide inaccurate

The bra size conversion guide seems to be inaccurate.

US	UK
32A	32B
32B	32C
32C	32D

is all lunacy. Even the chart right above it "Bust/band difference and cup size" states that:

Inches	cm	US	UK/AU
<1	0 to 2	AA	AA
1	2 to 4	A	A
2	4 to 6	B	B
3	6 to 8	C	C
4	8 to 10	D	D
5	10 to 12	DD	DD

are equal. Yet suddenly they're now a size different. Look at http://www.breasttalk.co.uk/size_charts.aspx (Cup Conversion Chart) to see that uk and us are the exact same until E.-NeF (talk) 13:58, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

This appears to have been fixed. However, there are inconsistencies from country to country and manufacturer to manufacturer. -- btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 19:43, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Part of the inconsistencies are the different sizing systems, metric 2-cm-System vs. inch-system. Most conversion charts out there are simply flawed bc even experienced brafitters do not know that there are two different sizing systems!!! This includes the chart at breasttalk.co.uk, never seen something as stupid and uninformed. Most Italians don't even know cupsizes, they use 1,2,3, ... all B-Cups. Europe the same, the only thing they got right at the chart is that Europe doesn't use DD.

I tried to add information on this topic, it would be nice if it wasn't deleted every time! 79.216.119.151 (talk) 21:49, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

When you added information, do you also add sources? If you would like to contribute, it is a good idea to create an account. Edits made by anonymous IP addresses raise flags because so much vandalism is perpetrated by individuals using IP addresses. Please do add information just make sure it's got reliable sources. — btphelps ^{(talk) (contribs)} 03:31, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Typo?

Her right breast was a B cup ... and two cup sizes smaller than her left breast, a D cup. [snip] In January 2001, she underwent a ... procedure ... which transferred fat cells from her thighs to her left breast.

Wouldn't that make her left breast bigger after stating her right one was smaller?

Grumpy44134 (talk) 04:25, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Fixed. 114.73.87.143 (talk) 14:52, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

International Fitting Standards chart error

The chart with the equivalent band size numbers was off by one step on the US/UK sizes as compared to the EU and FR sizes (which match perfectly). While the US/UK sizes are given in inches, the actual conversion to centimetres (as in the EU sizes) is not particularly accurate, but the convention is that a 32 band size is equivalent to an EU 70 band, or a French 85. This is readily confirmable at conversion sites or sites with size guides (such as [1] or [2] or [3]), and on the tag of most bras produced by companies that sell internationally. I could not confirm the match in dress sizes (thought this measurement would likely be inaccurate in most cases given the variability of breast size), or the Italy and Australia/NZ-specific band size numbers, so it'd be great if someone could double-check that! :) Mirithing (talk) 23:30, 19 November 2011 (UTC)